“A Different World” with Ben Ahlers, Bob Shaw, and Douglas Purver

Summary

The Official Gilded Age Podcast - Episode: “A Different World” Summary

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Official Gilded Age Podcast
• Host/Author: HBO
• Description: Hosts Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies and Tom Myers from The Bowery Boys delve into the intricacies of HBO’s award-winning series, The Gilded Age. Each episode dissects on-screen events, real historical parallels, and features exclusive interviews with cast and crew members.
• Episode: “A Different World” featuring guests Ben Ahlers, Bob Shaw, and Douglas Purver
• Release Date: July 21, 2025

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1. Introduction

Alicia Malone and Tom Myers welcome listeners back to The Official Gilded Age Podcast, expressing excitement over reaching episode five. They set the stage for a comprehensive discussion that spans various locations depicted in the episode, including New York, Newport, and England. The hosts also tease upcoming interviews with key contributors to the show.

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2. Episode Recap

A. Overview of "A Different World"

• Setting and Initial Scenes:

  • The episode opens with a serene reflection by a lake at Sidmouth Castle, reminiscent of the real-life Blenheim Palace where Consuelo Vanderbilt resided with the 9th Duke of Marlborough.
  • Tom Myers [02:51]: “Blenheim Palace was built in the English baroque style in the early 1700s. It’s a massive stone structure with towers and grand state rooms, nestled within expansive landscaped grounds.”

• Character Dynamics:

  • Gladys's Experience:

    • Gladys feels out of place in the vast and austere environment of Sidmouth Castle. Lady Sarah’s condescending tour exacerbates her sense of isolation.
    • Alicia Malone [06:06]: “Lady Sarah’s remarks about Gladys’s portrait emphasize how much of a fish out of water Gladys feels.”

  • Engagements and Relationships:

    • The episode contrasts Larry’s genuine engagement with Marian against the arranged marriage dynamics between Gladys and the Duke.
    • Tom Myers [08:15]: “Larry truly gets to choose his own partner and make a love match, highlighting the gender dynamics of the time.”

• Social and Historical Context:

  • Discussions around societal expectations, such as the norms surrounding divorce and the role of women in high society.
  • Tom Myers [12:09]: “Alva Vanderbilt’s high-profile divorce in the 1890s set a precedent that significantly altered societal norms regarding divorce among the elite.”

B. Key Plot Points

• Central Park Proposal:

  • Larry proposes to Marian under a beautifully lit canopy of trees, symbolizing his agency in choosing a life partner.
  • Alicia Malone [08:30]: “The magical scene with Larry and Marian made me think about the contrast between their love match and other marriages depicted in the show.”

• Bertha’s Struggles:

  • Bertha faces exclusion and disapproval from her family, particularly regarding her association with Aurora Fane.
  • Tom Myers [13:40]: “Aurora’s potential divorce would have been shocking in the 1880s, making her exclusion from the party even more poignant.”

• Social Scandals and Secrets:

  • George Russell’s struggles with his railroad ambitions lead to family tensions and suspicions of espionage within the household.
  • Tom Myers [22:21]: “George is stressed about losing everything, while Bertha deals with persistent rumors about her family.”

• Representation of Early Black Baseball:

  • Peggy and Dr. Kirkland attend a baseball game, shedding light on the nascent stages of the Negro baseball leagues.
  • Tom Myers [16:04]: “The show highlights the often-overlooked early black baseball scene, portraying amateur players who balanced the sport with other professions.”

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3. Interviews with Cast and Crew

A. Interview with Ben Ahlers (Jack)

• Character Insight:

  • Ben discusses Jack as an embodiment of the American Dream, highlighting his gratitude, presence, and ability to dream beyond his current circumstances.
  • Douglas Purver [34:19]: “Jack wants to make a life for himself, which is the essence of the American Dream.”

• Performance and Development:

  • The evolution of Jack's character from a servant to a successful gentleman mirrors broader societal shifts.
  • Douglas Purver [36:17]: “The show’s attention to detail inspires me to craft my own taste and see what type of man I want to be.”

• Filming Challenges:

  • Ben shares experiences from filming complex scenes, emphasizing the collaboration with the production and visual effects teams.
  • Douglas Purver [37:11]: “Witnessing the clock office emerge and being anchored in the storytelling was exhilarating.”

B. Interview with Bob Shaw (Production Designer)

• Creating Sidmouth Castle:

  • Bob details the intricate process of transforming Ochre Court and other locations into the fictional Sidmouth Castle using a combination of practical sets and visual effects.
  • Bob Shaw [46:07]: “Sidmouth should feel like a whole other ball game, much larger and set among rolling hills and expansive grounds.”

• Design Philosophy:

  • Emphasis on realism and immersion through detailed set dressing and strategic use of props.
  • Bob Shaw [55:34]: “It’s important to have things in the drawers and closets to keep actors immersed in the scene.”

• Historical Accuracy:

  • Discussions on how historical references, like Consuelo Vanderbilt’s wedding, inform the set designs to maintain authenticity.
  • Bob Shaw [55:52]: “We used illustrations and photos of Consuelo’s actual wedding to inspire the look of St. Thomas's Church.”

C. Interview with Douglas Purver (Visual Effects Supervisor)

• Role of Visual Effects:

  • Douglas explains how visual effects enhance the authenticity of historical settings, seamlessly integrating practical sets with digital enhancements.
  • Ben Ahlers [58:50]: “A lot of the places don’t exist anymore or are surrounded by the modern world, so we extend or modify them digitally.”

• Technical Processes:

  • Insight into the creation of Sidmouth Castle’s visual assets using 3D scans, photogrammetry, and extensive research.
  • Ben Ahlers [60:04]: “Sidmouth Castle was loosely based on Longleat House, incorporating elements from Blenheim Palace to create a fictional yet authentic estate.”

• Challenges and Innovations:

  • The balance between practical locations and digital enhancements to maintain realism.
  • Ben Ahlers [69:13]: “There needs to be a human touch to ensure the uncanny valley effect is avoided, making the visuals feel authentic.”

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4. Key Discussions and Insights

• Historical Parallels:

  • The hosts draw connections between the show's portrayal of 1880s society and real historical events, such as the impact of Alva Vanderbilt’s divorce on societal norms.
  • Tom Myers [15:05]: “Mrs. Astor faced the dilemma of reconciling her stance on divorce with her daughter’s scandalous behavior, reflecting real historical tensions.”

• Cultural Depictions:

  • Examination of how the show illustrates the complexities of high society, including gender roles, societal expectations, and the burgeoning push for women's independence.
  • Alicia Malone [25:08]: “Ada finds peace through Madame Dashkova, highlighting the limited avenues women had for personal solace and empowerment.”

• Production Techniques:

  • Insights into the collaborative efforts between production design and visual effects to create immersive historical environments.
  • Bob Shaw [53:27]: “We piece together multiple locations to create seamless environments that transport viewers to the past.”

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5. Conclusion

“A Different World” delves deep into the intricate lives of its characters, set against the richly detailed backdrop of the 1880s high society. The episode skillfully weaves fictional narratives with historical facts, providing viewers with both engaging storytelling and educational insights. Through the expertise of guests like Ben Ahlers, Bob Shaw, and Douglas Purver, the podcast highlights the meticulous craftsmanship behind The Gilded Age, celebrating the collaborative efforts that bring the opulent yet challenging world of the era to life.

Listeners are encouraged to watch the episode for a captivating exploration of love, ambition, and societal expectations, all while gaining a deeper appreciation for the historical context and production artistry that define the series.

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Notable Quotes:

• Tom Myers [02:51]: “Blenheim Palace was built in the English baroque style in the early 1700s. It’s a massive stone structure with towers and grand state rooms, nestled within expansive landscaped grounds.”

• Alicia Malone [06:06]: “Lady Sarah’s remarks about Gladys’s portrait emphasize how much of a fish out of water Gladys feels.”

• Douglas Purver [34:19]: “Jack wants to make a life for himself, which is the essence of the American Dream.”

• Bob Shaw [46:07]: “Sidmouth should feel like a whole other ball game, much larger and set among rolling hills and expansive grounds.”

• Ben Ahlers [58:50]: “A lot of the places don’t exist anymore or are surrounded by the modern world, so we extend or modify them digitally.”

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This summary captures the essence of the podcast episode "A Different World," providing a comprehensive overview of the discussions, insights, and contributions from the guests. It integrates notable quotes with appropriate timestamps, ensuring a rich and engaging narrative for listeners and readers alike.

Transcript

[Tom Myers]

I am being asked to manage too much regarding the Russells. Not only is he marrying our niece, but he's made our footman rich, which is upsetting to everyone in this household.

[Alicia Malone]

Not the footman. That's right. Not the footman at all. Welcome back to the official Gilded Age podcast, where we reveal the fact behind the fiction on the award winning HBO original series, the Gilded Age. I'm Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies and I'm joined once again by my mate. He's the host of the Bowery Boys podcast, the wonderful Tom Myers. Hello.

[Tom Myers]

Hello, Alicia. Good day, mate. I've been waiting to say that to you. Can you believe we're already on episode five?

[Alicia Malone]

No, I.

[Tom Myers]

That's crazy. And this episode covers so much territory. Like, literally, it spans thousands of miles. I mean, we thought that going to Morenci, Arizona was a big deal. Today on the show, we're gonna be traveling between New York and Newport and England.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And that brings up a question I wanted to ask you. So if you could choose any of the fictional places to live in, like the Russell's house or the English castle or maybe, you know, one of the saloons in the western town, what would you choose? Where would you want to live?

[Tom Myers]

I'm thinking Mamie Fish's Newport Cottage.

[Alicia Malone]

I was gonna say the same thing.

[Tom Myers]

No.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, because of that view. Beautiful.

[Tom Myers]

And because of the porch, obviously. Well, there's probably room for both of us in there.

[Alicia Malone]

Okay. We'll both live there.

[Tom Myers]

Today on the show, we will be talking through episode five, and then we will be sitting down with three very special guests. Ben Ahlers, who plays Jack, Bob Shaw, the show's production designer, and Douglas Perver, the visual effects supervisor.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, there is a lot to get to, but let's start with the recap. This is season three, episode five, A Different World, written by Julian Fellowes and Sonja Warfield and directed by Deborah Kampmeier. We begin with a reflection on a lake showing a carriage going over a bridge. We are at Sidmouth Castle on the grounds, or the Parklands, as it's sometimes called. And Gladys can't believe how large this estate is. The building, too, is huge. And Tom, I looked at pictures of Blenheim palace online where Consuelo Vanderbilt and the 9th Duke of Marlborough lived. And it looked quite similar to Sidmouth.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, it did. Or rather it does, because, of course, it's still around Today you can visit Blenheim Palace. The palace was built in the English baroque style in the early 1700s. So it's this Massive stone structure with towers on its ends and, you know, grand state rooms inside. And the whole place does sit inside a very large and landscaped park. Right. And it was also in a really bad state when Consuelo first met the Duke and visited. But by the time they got married, you know, all of that Vanderbilt cash was funding a huge renovation project which actually prevented the Duke and the Duchess from moving right in after the wedding. They had to wait until the following spring, 1896. So Consuelo and the Duke actually took an extended honeymoon around Europe and even made it to Egypt. Unlike what we see on the show, by the time that they arrived and moved in, some work had already been done and much more was underway.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, well, Sidmouth could definitely do with some work. I mean, the inside is dark, cold and empty. Kind of like Lady Sarah Pam bom ting. She's giving Gladys the 10 cent tour, taking her down the bachelor corridor. And Lady Sarah's quite rude about Gladys's John Singer Sargent portrait. She says New York is the best place for it.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, that was a low dig. But, Alicia, spoiler alert. The painting of Consuelo that Carolus Duran painted that we mentioned, you know, back in 1894, today that painting hangs at Blenheim. So take that, Sarah.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, maybe Gladys can sneak her portrait.

[Tom Myers]

Over at some point, I hope. But yes, our first impression here of the interior of Sidmouth is dark. And of course, during this rather condescending tour of the palace, Lady Sarah keeps dropping references to how deep her family's connections are to the palace. I'm starting to think this isn't really a tour, it's like a lesson in how important their family is.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and all of this just underscores how much of a fish out of water Gladys feels like. She's also different from New York. Seems like it's a very lonely life for her and she doesn't even understand the jokes they're telling at dinner.

[Tom Myers]

But Consuelo wrote about this feeling, you know, once they arrived in Europe and her husband was surrounded by his people, she wrote, quote, the sight of these strangers, Marbra's family, brought the loneliness of my position sharply into focus. I realized that he would from now on be surrounded by friends and distractions that were foreign to me.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, it sounds very, very lonely. And everything is foreign to Gladys. She can't get anything right. As she heads into dinner, Lady Sarah pulls her aside to scold her for wearing diamond stars in her hair, which I thought were actually quite beautiful.

[Tom Myers]

They were lovely. I mean, look, Adelheid is doing her best. I mean, she's even calling Gladys your grace. Right. Which I think they're both kind of smiling about. I thought that the diamond stars were a lovely gesture, but as Lady Sarah tells her, quote, if I can wear a tiara, so can you.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, what does she mean by that?

[Tom Myers]

Well, I have never worn one, so I can only go with what Consuelo wrote in her memoir. She said that her father gave her for her wedding a diamond tiara, which she said, quote, invariably produced a violent headache. So keep that in mind. She also wrote that she had a 19 row dog collar made of pearls which chafed her neck.

[Alicia Malone]

Whoa.

[Tom Myers]

And we know what that can lead to.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Pulling at the pearls. Pearls going flying everywhere. We've seen that happen in the show before. But poor Adelheid, she is sent packing over those diamond stars. The Duke seems to think that was very unnecessary. But Lady Sarah defends her choices to her brother Hector. I am trying to turn her into an English duchess. It's hard work and she's unpromising material, but I'm doing my best.

[Ben Ahlers]

It was you who told me I.

[Tom Myers]

Must save the family with a Yankee heiress.

[Alicia Malone]

I suppose it never occurred to me that you'd have to bring her home. It is nice to see the Duke slightly pushing back against her.

[Tom Myers]

I gotta say, Hattie Morhan is like, impressively unlikable as Lady Sarah. She must be having fun with that role. I will also note that in real, Consuelo Vanderbilt did have some friction with an aunt of her husband, the Duke. She wrote, quote, she seemed to me as hard as her polished appearance. And her prominent eyes, harsh voice and sarcastic laugh made me shudder. And her name, Alicia, was Lady Sarah Wilson.

[Alicia Malone]

Aha. So, I mean, that's gotta be an inspiration for this Lady Sarah, right?

[Tom Myers]

Or quite a coincidence.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes. And luckily she has really strong parents who might help her out. But we need an update, and that is a Larian update. Big, big news. They go for a stroll through Central Park. Larry takes Marian's hand, whisks her into some kind of magical tree and says.

[Tom Myers]

Marian Brooke, will you marry me?

[Alicia Malone]

Yes. What a magical scene that was. I mean, the. The shot inside that group of trees was just beautiful. The light coming through the leaves and the camera sweeping around them. And both of them were crying. So sweet.

[Tom Myers]

I was crying, but I mean, he found the most perfect canopy of leaves for that sort of sun dappled lighting. It was very well.

[Alicia Malone]

And it just made me think about the contrast between this engagement between Larry and Marian and the Engagement between Gladys and the Duke. Because Larry truly gets to choose his own partner and make a love match. So I'm assuming this would be true to the dynamics of this time. That men had more agency to pick their own life partner?

[Tom Myers]

Absolutely. But the woman's family still had to agree. Need I remind you of Billy Carlton? Remember him? So, you know, here in the case of Marian and Larry, Larry knows that he has to clear it. Or at least should clear it also with Agnes and Ada. Or at least get their blessing.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. So they go off to tell them. Unsurprisingly, Ada is pleased, Agnes less so. Particularly when Larry and both let it slip that Jack has made a fortune from selling his clock.

[Tom Myers]

Which, once the lovebirds have left the room, leads to one of my favorite Agnes lines. Well, I wonder how many more bolts from the blue I will have to endure before bedtime. But can we also just address the fact that Larry will not be dining with Marian on their engagement night?

[Alicia Malone]

I would say cancel your plans, Larry. I mean, you can celebrate with your friend another time. But the next stop for larian is across the street to tell George and Bertha about their big news.

[Tom Myers]

Bertha is busy dressing for dinner, so they tell George first, who happily pops open some champagne. Which reminds me of the last time that we saw champagne on this show around an engagement proposal.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, Bertha had that champagne on ice even before the Duke had proposed to Gladys. But here, George doesn't even wait for his wife to join him before he's popping the champagne and celebrating. He's really not giving Bertha any chance to object about this match.

[Tom Myers]

Now George is determined to have more of a hand in this wedding. Then into this little celebration walks Bertha on the arm of the ever so charming or smarmy Mr. Alfred Merrick. And Bertha is at first astonished and then she is fuming that she was kept out of not just this engagement, which she clearly does not approve of, but also the fact that Larry is heading off to Morenci in the morning. Did you catch her face? That expression that she was making as she was sipping champagne and it was all kind of sinking in. She's not happy.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I think she feels like she's being shut out of her own family and she does not like it. But while we're on the subject of Marian, let's skip ahead for a moment to a scene that takes place in Newport at the house where we are both going to live in the future. Mrs. Fisher's house. Beautiful ocean view. Marian arrives at a party with Aurora Fane to Show her support Mrs. Astor is not happy that Aurora is invited to Mrs. Fisher's party, but Bertha is also standing strong with her. So do we know if this happened in your society? I mean, I know that women were excluded for being divorced. That definitely happened. But could that exclusion be reversed if someone powerful in society decided to stand up for them?

[Tom Myers]

Well, I think the thing is that, you know, up until Alva Vanderbilt and her divorce in the 1890s, divorce within the families of the 400 was exceedingly rare. Right. Because of the rules that Mrs. Astor fiercely upheld. That's not to say that women didn't dream of getting divorces. Elizabeth Drexel Lehrer, who decades later in the 1930s, wrote the Gilded Age Tell all book called King Lair, was stuck in her own terrible, abusive marriage. And she resisted divorce for many years because her own mother wouldn't receive anybody in their house who was divorced. And Elizabeth credits Alva for changing this. When Alva got a divorce in 1895. So she, in fact, writes that Alva bragged to her, quote, I was the first society woman to ask for divorce. And within a year, ever so many others had followed my example. They had been wanting divorces all the time, but they had not dared to do so until I showed them the way.

[Alicia Malone]

And is it true that she was the first? First?

[Tom Myers]

Well, not exactly the first, but definitely the highest profile. And after Alva's divorce, it is true that the gates were flung open and many other women followed her lead, but that was in the 1890s. And remember that here we're in the 1880s. So it would have really been truly shocking for Aurora and Charles Fane to divorce.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And again, we just continue to feel sorry for Aurora. She's basically forced to leave before even getting a chance to eat lunch. And she walked, Walks out with Marian by her side and says, I was.

[Tom Myers]

Invited to this when I was Mrs. Charles Vane.

[Alicia Malone]

Now I'm no one.

[Tom Myers]

It's a sad moment, but I appreciated the fact that Bertha came to her side, you know, when everybody else at the party was acting like she was contagious. But following the lunch, Mamie. I mean, she sort of lays into Mrs. Astor, as only Mamie had the right to do. You're digging your own grave if you.

[Bob Shaw]

Think you can bury a roar of.

[Tom Myers]

Fame when Charlotte is headed for the divorce courts.

[Bob Shaw]

Oh, Charlotte, you have one question to answer.

[Tom Myers]

And what is that? Are you willing to exile your own daughter from society? If not, you cannot exile Mrs. Vane.

[Bob Shaw]

You have a difficult choice to make.

[Tom Myers]

Lena. I do not envy you I do not envy her. Yes, I love this moment because this scene is really capturing a dilemma that Mrs. Astor really did face. She really was forced to somehow reconcile her absolutist position against divorce with the very well publicized and scandalous behavior of her own daughter.

[Alicia Malone]

And we know that Mrs. Astor's marriage was not a happy one.

[Tom Myers]

Right. That was the whole thing. She and William Backhouse Astor basically lived like separate lives. He sailed around on his yacht entertaining women and throwing parties while. While Caroline Astor, you know, was constantly being forced to make excuses for his absence. And she always pretended not to care one bit, but at least she didn't inflict a divorce on the family name. So. Yeah, so in the show, she is holding Aurora to the same standards that she lived by. But what did that mean for, you know, her own daughter?

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, we'll have to wait and see. But let's stay in Newport because I want to talk about Peggy and Dr. Kirkland. They attend a baseball game, which is Peggy's first ever baseball game that she's seen. And this made me wonder about the Negro baseball leagues, as they were called. Did they begin around the 1880s?

[Tom Myers]

The so called Negro leagues would be established later in the 1920s. Here in the 1880s, professional baseball, which was a relatively new thing at the time, had established a color line. Right. Which mostly prevented black players from joining any of the major leagues or minor leagues. And so, you know, black players formed their own teams and their own leagues. So what we're seeing portrayed here would have been part of this early black baseball scene. And these are amateur players, right? They had other jobs.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, that's right. We hear that Dr. Kirkland is there to cheer on a player called Wilbur, who he says is his accountant, but also his friend.

[Tom Myers]

Exactly right. These, these leagues would remain mostly amateur leagues until 1920, when Rube Foster established the Negro National League. But that was decades away. So I think it's great that the show here is highlighting this very early period which is often so overlooked in baseball history.

[Alicia Malone]

But also at the baseball game watching is T. Thomas Fortune. We will get to him in a second. But he offers Peggy a chance to interview Frances Ellen Watkins Harper, who was an important suffragist, abolitionist, writer, lecturer, poet.

[Tom Myers]

She was a remarkable person. She was born free in Baltimore in 1825, and she became this celebrated author and poet and suffrage and temperance activist and abolitionist. By the 1880s, she was touring the country and she was giving lectures on all of these topics and often highlighting how these causes all work together. So, yes, here in 1884. Peggy would absolutely have known of her. And it would have been quite an hon for her to get to go to Philadelphia to interview her.

[Alicia Malone]

Absolutely. But when Marian hears about Fortune's offer, she suspects that there may be a catch. Although she tries not to clue Agnes in on exactly what happened between Peggy and Fortune. And Marian was right. Because when Peggy arrives at the train station, there is Mr. Fortune with his bag ready to go with her.

[Tom Myers]

Oh, boy. And it gets confrontational right away. There's some back and forth, suitcase grabbing, Fortune shoves Kirkland. Peggy has to step in and keep the peace.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And I like how Kirkland emphasizes that he is Dr. Kirkland.

[Tom Myers]

That's. Don't you forget.

[Alicia Malone]

Don't forget. But let's go back to the Russell household. Because George is struggling to get his railroad off the ground, Tensions are high, and he fires Clay. He says, I need someone to help me achieve the impossible.

[Tom Myers]

I don't know. George really isn't winning over my sympath. He seems by and large kind of stressed out and stretched thin. Right. George does not necessarily seem like he's thinking clearly.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Can you tell us again about what George is trying to do here and why it would have been such a risky proposition?

[Tom Myers]

Well, he was trying to build his coast to coast railroad. Right. And for that he needed to run through Chicago, which required controlling the Illinois Central Line, which was a railroad that in the show is controlled by two main groups, the Merrick family and a railroad investor and financier who was named Risley Sage. Now, the Merricks, who we already met Mr. Merrick at dinner, they seem to be fictional, but Risley Sage really was part of the whole transcontinental railroad development story in the 19th century. And he was also a cutthroat investor, a colleague of Jay Gould's. And he was also directly impacted by the financial panic of 1884. So George fires Clay. And did you notice how on his way out the door, Clay turns around and tells George, wake up before it's too late. This is not the first time this season that somebody has told George to wake up.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, that's right. But George is not about to wake up. He's determined to keep going. And after hiring a new right hand man in Brinkley, he enlists the help of his son, asking Larry to go to Morenci. And Larry quickly shows his business acumen. I mean, he has truly learned from the best.

[Ben Ahlers]

But I'm counting on you.

[Bob Shaw]

I need this land for the railway expansion. What's in it for me?

[Tom Myers]

Okay. It's kind of heartwarming. I mean the father seeing himself the son or the son in her father. It's also a little bit self centered and kind of problematic. But. But yeah, I mean, at least he has brought Larry into the plan here, right? To acquire the land in Morenci. And George is also bringing Bertha into the plan to help him. And for that Bertha will need to throw a dinner and as George says, make a fuss over Mr. Merrick and pull out all the stops.

[Alicia Malone]

And when she does pull out all the stops, George gets angry. I mean, he says he feels cuckolded and that it was all a waste of time. I mean, do you think his reaction is fair?

[Tom Myers]

Maybe the problem is actually not that Bertha is flirting so much as that, but Mr. Merrick is flirting with Bertha and she's quite enjoying it. I mean, George isn't giving her much these days.

[Alicia Malone]

Exactly. I mean she does really seem to be enjoying that attention. And she keeps intriguing men all throughout this season.

[Tom Myers]

She does. I also find it interesting that we're watching this dinner here with Merrick at the same time as Gladys uncomfortable first dinner at Sidmouth. Now there seems to be this link on the show between George and Gladys's stories. They are both the masters in some way of their houses, right? They're paying for their houses and yet they're also both being left out and they're being disrespected in those houses.

[Alicia Malone]

So George is stressed out about losing everything and Merrick flirting with Bertha his railroad. But Bertha is upset about the persistent rumors being printed about her family in the newspaper even beyond Gladys wedding. And she tells church to find the spy.

[Tom Myers]

It must be upsetting, ma'. Am. I'm not the mistress of my own house anymore. I feel there's a spy around every corner. You're sure it's a member of staff or as I would call them, a traitor.

[Bob Shaw]

I'm enlisting the aid of Mrs. Bruce.

[Tom Myers]

And Mr. Borden to help me find the culprit. Madam. Can they be trusted? I hope so. At this point, everyone is suspect.

[Alicia Malone]

Everyone is suspect, Tom. Everyone is suspect. And I love that George's solution is just that they should stop having so many secrets. And it made me, yeah, it made me wonder about this in real life, you know, where the details of large wealthy households would be printed in newspapers. This happened quite often, didn't it?

[Tom Myers]

Oh yeah. Anything, you know, juicy that involved a bold face name at the time made it into Town Topics, which was that scandalous newspaper that was published by Colonel William Dalton. Mann. As Greg King writes in his book A Season of Splendor, Mann used, quote, a network of spies drawn from a wide swath. Butlers who overheard conversations at dinner tables, maids who found compromising letters, and telegraph operators who regularly sent and received the most intimate of messages, which let him, quote, quickly uncover a wealth of high society secrets.

[Alicia Malone]

Across the road, Agnes has received another letter from the New York Heritage Society. She says she knows they just want money from her, but I want to know, was the New York Heritage Society real?

[Tom Myers]

No. But the New York Historical Society is. Today, it's known simply as the New York Historical. This is the city's oldest museum. It was founded in 1804, and it developed this impressive collection of manuscripts and artifacts and artwork, all of it relating to the history of New York and of the entire country. At the time of our Show Here in 1884, the New York Historical Society was located at 2nd Avenue and 11th Street. It would move up to its current location on Central park West and 77th street in 1908. So spot on.

[Alicia Malone]

Okay, that checks out. But while Agnes is busy with that, Ada goes back to visit Madame Dashkova, the medium, who, by the way, is wearing a necklace of bunny rabbits. I don't know if you saw that. And Ada finds some peace.

[Tom Myers]

This is a really. It's a very sweet and also very sad scene. You know, Ada really opens up when she speaks out loud to Luke, but then Luke, you know, speaking through Madame Dashkova, kind of gives her a pep talk.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and this really helps Ada, because she returns home with some pep in her step, and she tells Agnes that she's going to start wearing some color in her wardrobe. Half mourning, she calls it, like some violet or some lilac. So, of course, Tom, I wrote down in my notes as I was watching Ask Tom about the mourning period for women and what half mourning means. I mean, how long did a mourning period last for?

[Tom Myers]

Well, it depended on who was doing the mourning. But remember that while our show was taking place in 1880s, in New York, back in England, the monarch, Queen Victoria, was mourning the death of her husband Albert, who had died back in 1861. She would actually remain in mourning until her own death 40 years later.

[Alicia Malone]

Wow.

[Tom Myers]

According to the Metropolitan Museum of Art's Costume Institute, it was customary to quote don mourning attire from three months to two and a half years while grieving for the loss of a loved one. And yes, there were these phases. Full mourning meant just wearing solid black, while half mourning allowed the wearer to add a small amount of white or Purple.

[Alicia Malone]

Okay, so we might see Ada in some purple soon. But let's go back to Larry. He is celebrating his engagement, question mark slash his business deal with Jack. And also a friend's wedding at the Haymarket. Now, this was a real place in a red light district of Manhattan.

[Tom Myers]

Oh, boy, was it ever. Yes, I am excited that the show is giving us a little bit of the Tenderloin here. The Tenderloin was the city's most notorious vice district. And it was referred to by clergymen who were regularly railing against it as Satan's Circus. Because of the kinds of establishments there. The Haymarket was one of the most famous of its places, you know, and the. The Haymarket sat near the intersection of 6th Avenue and 30th Streets.

[Alicia Malone]

And was it like we see in this episode, kind of anything goes?

[Tom Myers]

Well, I think that to get past the Vice patrol, which for a while was a real thing, the Haymarket actually enforced rules like, you know, you couldn't. There was no dancing with prostitutes, and women's dresses had to be so long, et cetera. But the Haymarket also helpfully provided, you know, little curtained off spaces behind which, you know, anything goes.

[Alicia Malone]

But you were telling me that it wasn't unusual for a gentleman of Larry's means to frequent places like the Haymarket. I mean, there was even. There was a term for it, right?

[Tom Myers]

Slummin it. Yes. This was a term for men. Usually only men of means, you know, who kind of went downtown for a night of crazy adventures. They went to bars and nightclubs and absinthe parlors and obviously houses of ill repute.

[Alicia Malone]

Although Larry doesn't seem to be doing anything wrong. And poor Jack just. Just doesn't know what is happening. This is a whole new world for him. And then, amongst all the madness, Larry spots a familiar face. Maud Beaton. Or as she says, Dolly Trent.

[Tom Myers]

Okay, so at first I thought that Larry was making eyes at somebody else. And I was like, thinking I was gonna have to step in myself. But then it. Yeah, it was clear that he had spotted across that loud and boisterous room, Maude. She's ascending a staircase with a client. She claims, of course, to be Dolly Trent. But you can see in her face that she knows, you know, she knows she's been busted.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And the first thing I thought was, I hope Larry tells Oscar about this. And he does.

[Tom Myers]

Yes. I mean, but what is there to do? I mean, I thought that John Adams pretty much summed it up nicely over lunch with Oscar when John basically said, look, it sounds like justice has already been served. He also, you know, implies that the deception here was mutual, because if Oscar and Maude had actually gotten married, he would, quote, have stolen her entire life. Which, I gotta say, is a pretty modern spin on the story. I'm not sure that a closeted man would have said that back in the 1880s, but I'm all for it.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and it is true. Although I'm sure being wed to Oscar would have been much better than working in the Haymarket. But anyway, let's leave that there and we'll go back to the Russells for the final scene. Throughout this whole episode, George has been worried about Gladys. He doesn't know how she's doing over in England. So when her letter finally arrives, he is angry at Bertha.

[Tom Myers]

I don't know if I'm angry with you or myself. You made me weak, and I find.

[Bob Shaw]

That hard to forgive.

[Tom Myers]

Someone said the Gallia set sail the day after tomorrow. What will you say to her when you get there?

[Ben Ahlers]

You can't make her love him.

[Tom Myers]

I can fix this, believe me. That's the problem.

[Ben Ahlers]

I don't think I do believe you anymore.

[Tom Myers]

I can solve this sooner than you think. I'll be there before Larry even sets foot in Morenci. I'll make everything right.

[Bob Shaw]

Do I what you want? Don't expect me to be here when you get back.

[Tom Myers]

Oh, no. Bera looks crushed or panicked or like she's quickly trying to figure out how to fix what has become a total mess.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and usually Bertha can fix it. So we'll have to wait and see.

[Tom Myers]

So why don't we just leave all that drama there? But when we return, we have not one, not two, but three interviews to share with you. We'll be speaking with Ben Ahlers, who plays Jack, plus production designer Bob Shaw and visual effects supervisor Douglas Purver. Rated T for Teen. Each year, thousands of adults lose their shred. It's an epidemic simply known as shred loss. But it doesn't have to be this way, because rekindling your shred is as easy as playing the new Tony Hawks. Probably Skater three and four. With new parks, cross platform multiplayer, and sick new game modes, we can put an end to shred loss everywhere. Hit the new Tony hawk's Pro Skater 3 and 4 and show the world that the shred's not dead. Get Tony hawk's Pro Skater 3 and 4 available now.

[Ben Ahlers]

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[Tom Myers]

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[Alicia Malone]

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[Douglas Purver]

What is this place?

[Tom Myers]

It's anything you want to.

[Ben Ahlers]

Women drinking.

[Bob Shaw]

Entertainment, men if you fancy.

[Tom Myers]

You want gambling, there you have it.

[Douglas Purver]

Mr. Valerie, I'm not sure what to make of all this. It's not complicated.

[Tom Myers]

Enjoy it.

[Douglas Purver]

You have money now.

[Tom Myers]

You can afford a more interesting life. Make sure that you do well.

[Alicia Malone]

Ben, it's so lovely to meet you. I'm excited to chat because Jack has been one of our favorite characters throughout the show. What do you like personally about Jack as a character? Character?

[Douglas Purver]

It's funny because we started filming this in the middle of the pandemic when there was this great uncertainty in the world. It's not lost on anybody on this audience, the parallels between the dynamic nature of the 1880s as well as the period of great change we're experiencing right now. And so to have Jack as kind of a guiding light throughout my personal life has been really helpful because he has this sense of presence and gratitude for the people that he works with and the role he gets to play. He does his job so well and he finds so much joy and play and humor in the midst of it. He also is always willing to allow himself to dream, and so I love that.

[Alicia Malone]

We were talking with Julian Fellowes about Jack being sort of the embodiment of the very idea of the American dream. Do you see him in that way?

[Douglas Purver]

I do, yeah. Julian has such a specific eye on America. Coming from the uk, he has this appreciation for how a country could become so big and great in such a short amount of time. And it was groundbreaking for someone of Jack's station to be able to elevate and pursue. Most people get the American dream confused. I think sometimes we have just different definitions. It's not necessarily to be rich and famous and all powerful. It's to be able to make a life for yourself. And I think that's what Jack wants. And so, yeah, I do.

[Alicia Malone]

And it's interesting because Jack, it's not like he doesn't enjoy his work or he's really wanting to get out of the Van Rhijn house or that he particularly wants to become rich. He just has this invention and it becomes successful. So you see with him sort of the flip side of that dream, that once he becomes rich, it's kind of like, well, what am I going to do now?

[Douglas Purver]

Yeah, there's great sacrifice to pursuing a dream. It's very destabilizing. It's devastating in a way. Right. You have to grieve what you're leaving behind. Especially when what he's leaving behind was the first family that he's ever known after losing his mother in the fire and you know, kind of having survived on his own from a very young age. But what's also nice is, and I've experienced this in my, my own life, is that because his needs were met so well by his family, he was able to want beyond that. Right. And so it's because he has the love and the support of this, of this house, both upstairs and downstairs, that he knows that there's a soft landing if, if things didn't turn out. And I think he's just filled with so much. He's aware of that, I think, and obviously very, very grateful for it.

[Alicia Malone]

And you must have been excited as an actor to get the opportunity to take Jack in this new direction this season. I mean, we see him essentially becoming a man and becoming a gentleman, buying his suit, becoming rich and having to figure out who he actually is.

[Douglas Purver]

Yeah, I'm from a small town, Iowa, and so moving to New York and pursuing something like this was certainly a risk and it brings its own challenges. And obviously with the great reception of the show, there's been this really beautiful kind of mirror to stewarding Jack through his own version of that sort of that process. I admire how kind of wide eyed and present and grateful he is for it. I try to keep that sense of wonder in my life as this show continues to reach people.

[Alicia Malone]

Speaking of wide eyes, I think something that you do very well as an actor is acting with your eyes because we really know what Jack is thinking because of the way that you portray him through your eyes. And I love the scene where Larry and Jack are negotiating over the clock and when Jack realizes that six means $600,000. It's just very, very wide eyed. What do you remember about filming that scene?

[Douglas Purver]

Well, you know, Harry Richardson and I have become very, very good mates over the last five years. And Harry and I just. We're a dangerous duo. We have a lot of fun. And I remembered, you know, Jack doesn't get to leave the house much. And so I got to participate as Ben in witnessing Bob Shaw's world building really for the first time outside of the Brook House. But to witness this whole clock office emerge out of thin air and to really feel anchored in this aspect of the storytelling was very, very exciting. To be able to experience that with one of my best friends.

[Alicia Malone]

That's nice that you have that friendship. I think it comes across on screen with the chemistry between Jack and Larry. They have this sort of bromance. And it's nice to see Larry support Jack and taking him to get a suit. I mean, it's a very sweet friendship.

[Douglas Purver]

I mean, Harry does it to me. In real life, he'll be just walking down the street in Williamsburg and he'll pull me into a sweater shop and demand I buy a sweater.

[Alicia Malone]

Is he smoking a cigar at the same time telling you how to be a gentleman?

[Ben Ahlers]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bob Shaw]

I learned a lot from that guy.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, as you say, Jack rarely gets to leave the Van Rhijn house. And you know, he's known as John upstairs and Jack downstairs and definitely has to carry himself in a different way upstairs. Do you think about him as having these two different sides to his character?

[Douglas Purver]

Yeah, it's why I think we can see him thrive in the environment. When they're going to pitch the clock, you have to think about these servants. At that time, they were so much of their life was spent in silence, witnessing society unfold and being in the inner sanctorum. He's been pouring tea and standing in the background for hours. And so I think there's this. I wouldn't necessarily say chameleon, but I think he's seen so many walks of life, both in his personal life growing up as well as these titans of New York society coming through the drawing room every day, that he knows how to code switch some very modern term, but like to adjust to the environment.

[Alicia Malone]

As far as I know, Jack isn't based on a specific historical character or real life person. So what did you use for research to help you inform who Jack is?

[Douglas Purver]

The Horatio Alger stories of the 1800s were very, very helpful. They were kind of these first little novelettes, novellas of newspaper boys finding a way to start a conglomerate and make some money and finally buy their second pair of shoes. Right. It was this acknowledgement of. Of a young man, specifically, ability to make a life for himself, even if it wasn't. Again, the scale of George Russell. The writing does so much of the work for us. Julian leaves these little breadcrumbs in this paladin story structure where we all get these moments. And sometimes it's literally just an eyebrow raise at a temperance meeting, but they're really fruitful moments to push that story along and to build that character. And so I found those. Those clues throughout the script. And then we've been so supported by our historians again. Specifically, once the clock storyline started to emerge, the Horological Society of New York was completely vital to having both on the art direction side of knowing what our diagrams should look like, knowing what exactly I should say to the clock manufacturers, and to just. For me to have a more kind of unconscious, intuitive sense of how to operate these tools so that I wasn't in my way and I could just kind of like, let the surprises of the scene work play out without getting too bogged down.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. I was gonna ask that whether being on a show like this, set in a period has taught you anything or made you look at your modern life in any different way.

[Douglas Purver]

There's such an attention to detail in this show, and everyone operates with such mastery over what they do. And I think today there's a lot of class tension right now. And we can look at the elite and high society and the rules around it as disconnected and othering and. And. And missing the point. And in a lot of ways, that is true. That said, there. There also is something to really caring about the way that you show up in the world and, like, you know, putting on not necessarily an expensive piece of clothing, but just clothing that expresses who you are and shows your level of respect and care for whatever environment you're walking into. Yeah. Kasha's costumes and Bob's designs and Julian's writing and Chris and Manuel, like, there's so much care and attention to detail that it's kind of hard to, like, go home and not notice where you're not up to par in that way, because you're around people who really, just for the love of the work and love of their. Their. Their life really step up. And so it's been. It's been cool to try to craft my own taste and see. See what type of man I want to be in the world. I was telling somebody yesterday this. This TV show has been the mirror, like the kind of life force of the last five, six years now. And so it's still continuing to change me every day in that way.

[Alicia Malone]

I love that. And I know you grew up really being a fan of musical theater. Right. And you were very excited to meet people like Kelly o' Hara on the show. And I know now it's season three, so you know everyone very well, but do you ever get over the fact that you're working with so many Tony Award winners?

[Douglas Purver]

I'll never really get used to that and I don't really want to. I love being inspired by the people around me. I don't want to get tired of the excitement.

[Ben Ahlers]

Right.

[Douglas Purver]

I think you can really just choose to be a student of your colleagues and then they'll say, and we have been spending a lot of time together. And so there is this very. I'm just so grateful for our collegial, familial connection this cast has chosen to manifest throughout the last five years. If I see Nathan Lane out on the street and he recognizes me, I still have to kind of look over my shoulder to make sure that he's talking to me.

[Alicia Malone]

But, yeah, is there another Ben right behind? Well, it's been so much fun to watch Jack this season. So, Ben, thank you so much for your time. Great chatting.

[Douglas Purver]

Thank you, Alicia.

[Alicia Malone]

Appreciate you.

[Tom Myers]

Alicia, that was so great to hear your interview with Ben. First time on the show. I wish I could have made it.

[Alicia Malone]

I know you would have loved him. I mean, I wish you were there with me. Such a nice guy and great to talk to him about Jack's incredible storyline this season. But you were with me for our second interview of the show. Here he is, one of our favorite guys to talk to. This is production designer Bob Shaw.

[Tom Myers]

Well, Bob, it is lovely to have you you back on the podcast. Before we dive into your work on episode five, you are now a two time Emmy award nominee for episodes from season one and two of the Gilded Age. Congratulations.

[Bob Shaw]

Thank you.

[Tom Myers]

Are we seeing some differences? I mean, in this third season, Alicia and I have been talking about some, like, new spaces that we're feeling like we're seeing on the show. Are there many new spaces here in season three than in season one and two?

[Bob Shaw]

Our world keeps expanding. We have scenes that take place out west. We have scenes that take place in England. We have scenes that take place in the different parts of Newport that would have been the home of the black elite. The world just keeps getting bigger.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. So far this season we have been to the familiar places and New places. And episode five begins at Sidmouth Castle, and actually it begins on the grounds or the park of the castle. So what did you want that first impression of Sidma to look or to feel like?

[Bob Shaw]

Sidmouth should feel like a whole other ball game than what we've been playing. As large as our houses are in Newport and the little cottages, the scale of an English country home or a palace meant to be sort of similar to Blenheim, is beyond. So size is what we were hoping to hit you with initially. And also the idea that it's in the country and that. That it is set among, like, rolling hills and greenery for mile after mile. And just how big the grounds were in addition to the house itself.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. I'm curious to know the location of those grounds, because I know that you usually film around Long island, but to me, the bridge that the carriage goes over looked like the Palladian bridge. Just our head in the UK in those gardens. But I'm not sure if you actually went to the UK or not.

[Bob Shaw]

We did go to the uk. The bridge actually was filmed in Long island and then some of the grounds were filmed elsewhere. And as usual, we piece it together. Sometimes it seems to take a minimum of three locations to make one location.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Wow. Seamless.

[Tom Myers]

And that exterior is so impressive of the castle. How much of that is real?

[Bob Shaw]

Not that much of it. We started with the idea that we had to film most of it in Newport, and we were in front of Ochre Court, which was the second biggest place in Newport, but it was nowhere near big enough. And so we ended up having to extend in all directions. Ochre Court has a mansard roof and it was the only place that we really could cook up that was big enough to film in. And I said, well, it couldn't look more French with this massive mansard roof. So the first thing I did was look up a number of country estates and. And decide which one we would like, slice the top off and plunk it on top of Ochre Court. And it's what we do.

[Tom Myers]

Wait, so is that what you did? So you're using a Newport cottage as part of.

[Bob Shaw]

Yeah, we're using Ochre Court and we used some ground that we found elsewhere in Long Island. They literally scanned the place in 3D and then they put the new roof on top of the other place. By the time we're done, there's not that much left of where we. We've practically filmed.

[Tom Myers]

That's amazing. We're going to be actually speaking with Douglas Purver. So we will probably be touching on this again. But the scanning that you're talking about, it reminds me of when we were talking with you and I think, Douglas in season two about the Opera house. Right. Didn't you use a similar technique to create the interior of the new Metropolitan Opera?

[Bob Shaw]

Yes. The Opera House was a movie theater in Albany. It was Academy of Music in Philadelphia, and it was also another part of another movie theater. And then we built the boxes on stage. So we kind of Frankenstein these things together.

[Tom Myers]

It's amazing.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, I'm curious then, if you're ever thinking about creating a location completely with visual effects or possibly even A.I. i mean, what's the purpose of using.

[Bob Shaw]

A real location, A better starting point to have a real location. People coming out of a real building, people, you know, what the actors interact with. It's just better when it's real. And even as skilled and as advanced as things are in the world of computer generated imagery, it's very hard to do a building from scratch and have it convince me at least. I mean, other people might not notice, but I'll look sometimes and say, oh, I wish we'd had a real house for there. I guess the song is right. There ain't nothing like the real thing.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And there's not much of the real thing left. Right. So that's why you need to use visual effects.

[Bob Shaw]

Certainly with our constraints of, you know, we didn't have the time to pop over and do a bunch of scenes and transport all the cast to England. And I mean, it's just not practical. It's the same thing with, you know, in the beginning of the season when we're in the west, you know, well, we weren't going to all suddenly pick up and go to Arizona.

[Tom Myers]

We were astounded when Morgan told us in our interview in episode two that actually that was just like on the backlot. Right. And much of that was on the backlot just feet from 61st and 5th.

[Bob Shaw]

We tore up the ferry landing from season one, which had been sitting there wondering if you would ever need it again, and built the western town there.

[Alicia Malone]

When we head inside Sidmouth Castle, we see how much it contrasts to Gladys home in New York. I mean, it's pretty cold and it's austere. It's quite empty. So can you tell us how you wanted to use production elements to make this feel that way and to make it feel different from Gladys place in New York?

[Bob Shaw]

Sure. The idea that she has every modern convenience and things in the castle are 500 years old. Or more that the whole purpose of her marriage was to spruce up the estate. And I love Ochre Court. It's a fabulous place. It was the largest home in Newport for two months before the breakers opened. But the entry is a three story open with balconies running all around it. It's just a spectacular location. And again, even though it's not in England and walking in, it's a whole different scale than the Russell home. So it's like she has better detail or better upkeep of the Russell home. And then she is in this massive place that looks a little tired. And the biggest issue really was how tired it should look because, you know, and sometimes my research always gets me into trouble because Blenheim Castle is obviously the model and Consuela Vanderbilt's story. And they had sometime in the 1850s, sold off, like, the better part of their library of rare books. And they were selling off the paintings that were not family portraits because, you know, otherwise it would be like selling a family member. So they only sold landscapes and other kind of paintings. And it's like. Well, they're not totally destitute. They still have this massive castle. Needs some plumbing and modern conveniences, but. But it's not like they're camping.

[Tom Myers]

It must be so interesting to actually be on those sets. So the interior of Sidmouth Castle, if I'm hearing you right here, is Ochre Court. Is Ochre Court. All of those different rooms, even the dining room that we see.

[Bob Shaw]

Well, no, no, no, no. Actually, the main entrance, when they first come in. No, that's actually at. It's in Long island at the Glen Cove Mansion.

[Tom Myers]

Oh.

[Bob Shaw]

So I'm always, you know, on set at the beginning of the day saying, don't look further than this. This is the end of frame. Because if you get past that, then it doesn't look like it's part of this house. I always have to sort of establish the boundaries. And people still get directionally confused in the Elms because we have the peculiar situation of it being both their Newport home and parts of it being used as the Russell mansion in New York.

[Tom Myers]

The kitchen. Another new spot that the show takes us into in this episode is the Haymarket, notorious den of vice. What went into your research and into recreating that space?

[Bob Shaw]

So the Haymarket was a big white box with a contemporary staircase on one side and a very shallow stage, and it was just all white. In my catalog of things I've always wanted to do in the Vanderbilt mansion on 57th street, the enormous one, it was Very common to have what they called at the time a Moorish themed room or a Turkish room, which was usually a smoking room. And so I just picked that theme. And the graphic department made all of this pattern Islamic sort of detail and we printed it on like self adhesive vinyl and literally plastered it to the walls. And then we had to make things to disguise the contemporary railing. It was a big transformation. I think everyone was pretty shocked to come into this kind of Moorish Islamic fantasy. And, you know, I actually wish we'd filmed there more because it was a big effort and a lot of work. And I think we saw it twice.

[Tom Myers]

That's amazing. I think there is one shot right, where you can see some of the Moorish detailing, like in the ceiling around.

[Bob Shaw]

Yep, yep.

[Tom Myers]

So there was a lot of. A lot of that going on there.

[Bob Shaw]

We didn't really see most of it was a fun thing to do.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And I'm sure it all adds to just the feeling that you get on camera, you kind of need that level and layering of details. You can't skimp out.

[Bob Shaw]

It's good for people to feel that they're an entire in a complete environment. I was just the other day explaining to a producer why on set we need to put things in the drawers and we need to put things in the closets so that people feel that it's a real space. It's important. You know, when someone improvises a bit of business and they open a drawer and it's empty, it sort of takes them right out of the moment.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. My thing is, I hate when you can tell that no one has anything in their coffee cup.

[Bob Shaw]

Oh, right.

[Alicia Malone]

But while we have you here, can we touch on Gladys wedding? Because the church looked incredible. What did you draw on to create the look for St. Thomas's Church during the wedding?

[Bob Shaw]

Well, there are illustrations and some photos of Consuelo's actual wedding. And again, as over the top as it seemed that we were, we were restrained compared to the historical model, they had dozens of palm trees on the altar. I would have done flowers and I would have done other foliage, but it would never have occurred to me to start decorating a church, an Episcopal church with palm trees.

[Tom Myers]

Except on Palm Sunday.

[Bob Shaw]

But I'm palm.

[Tom Myers]

It's interesting hearing you talk about the restraint that you showed in sort of designing those interior spaces. Because it takes me back to something you've told us in previous seasons about the restraint on, say, the interiors. For example, the Van Rhijn house. Right. That if we saw today how Busy those interiors were. We would be kind of put off by that. You bring this kind of modern sensibility to it. One interior that's not so restrained, I think, is that we see in episode five is Madame Dashkova's interior, which is quite a bit busier. Right, right, right.

[Bob Shaw]

Yeah, that was fun. We just piled it in and more stuff on top of more stuff.

[Tom Myers]

There's a shot where you look down and I think you see the table. Like, over her, you see a big carpet, an oriental rug, plus a chair, a rocking chair with a pad with another pillow on it. There's layers on layers.

[Bob Shaw]

Well, that's what we were going for. And I particularly loved the. I don't know whether it was a tablecloth or a rug or something to put as the main surface on the table, but it had at least three underskirts in addition to this really fabulous embroidered thing.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, you do such a great job. So, Bob, thank you so much for your time. It was great to talk to you again for the third time.

[Bob Shaw]

Thank you. Nice to see you.

[Tom Myers]

Wow, that was really fun. As always, talking to Bob Shaw, I really find it fascinating just to hear about what a jigsaw puzzle all of those locations are, especially in Newport.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, it definitely reminds me more of a film production than a traditional TV production. It's fascinating. And Bob is such a nice guy, and he mentioned working very closely with the visual effects team. So let's go to our next interview. It is with someone we have spoken to before in this podcast, Douglas Purver. He is the visual effects supervisor. So let's take it away. Well, Douglas, it's so nice to talk to you again. Thanks for coming back on the show.

[Ben Ahlers]

It's great. Thanks for having me.

[Alicia Malone]

And just as a reminder to people who not think of the Gilded Age as being a show that requires visual effects, would you say that your job involves enhancing what's on screen and maybe enlarging some of the real locations used?

[Ben Ahlers]

Yeah, I think, you know, this show obviously takes place in history. It's not a modern show. So a lot of the places that we're filming or a lot of the places that these stories are taking place either don't exist anymore or they are just surrounded by our modern world. So there's a lot of extending, adding on, or removing involved in a lot of those locations.

[Alicia Malone]

Do you think a show like this could be done in a virtual environment, like completely on green screen, or do you always need to have partial locations, practical sets, you know, physical objects for the actors to be surrounded by?

[Ben Ahlers]

It's a debate I think a lot of people like to talk about. I mean, for a lot of us, we love to start with as much practical as possible. From my line of work, being selfish, I, you know, get to get all the information captured in camera that I can. Textures, perspective, lighting, all that stuff is kind of as much as you have in the frame. Gives you all the clues you need to make the extension that much better.

[Tom Myers]

Wong, in today's episode, in episode five, we see for the very first time Sidmouth Castle. And we have heard from Bob Shaw, in our conversation with him, that Sidmouth was a combination of a real location and visual effects.

[Ben Ahlers]

Absolutely, yeah. Bob and I collaborate very closely, especially on big pieces like this. There's a lot of research that goes into, into what he wants to put on the screen, obviously. So he'll start with pulling all these different houses, references of all these houses that would be accurate for the period, the time period, the location, all that kind of stuff. And then we hit all the constraints of where are we actually going to film this? Logistically, budgetarily, schedule wise, we just could not bring our company over to England to shoot into one of these beautiful old stately homes in the countryside. So it was, you know, the challenge was, what can we find here stateside that would give us the best handshake for, you know, the foreground, middle ground to shoot with our actors. And then I would then take over and create the rest of the background there. Sidmouth Castle was kind of based or loosely based off of Longleat House, which is an old house built in the mid-1500s, so 16th century home, Elizabethan style, out in Warminster, out in England. And it just had the perfect, like, vibe. It was like, beautiful, you know, the stone color, all the detail in the roofs, the grounds themselves were also perfect. So we, we decided to use this as our base for reference and inspiration. And because we can't carbon copy this house, we had to kind of change it to make it, it a fictional thing. We used other houses to, to also inspire us. So Blenheim palace was another big house that we used to style our Sidmouth off of. It's almost easier to kind of replace the whole thing and then bring back what's practical. So we knew we wanted to see this house from multiple different angles. It wasn't going to be just one shot. So to do that we have to build a 3D, a three dimensional asset of the whole house using some of the scans data that we had that creates a geometry, but also lots of photography, photogrammetry, which gives us all those textures and all the colors and all that real life weathering and grit that you get from stone being out in the elements, obviously. So it was a huge. Yeah, it was like a big conglomeration of all these different things.

[Alicia Malone]

It's amazing. And so seamless, too. You don't even notice. And I wanted to go back to episode one because it begins, the whole season begins in Arizona, in Morenci. And Tom and I were surprised to hear that it wasn't shot on location in Arizona. What did you and your team have to do to make that look and feel like the Wild west of Arizona?

[Ben Ahlers]

Yeah, that's another one. That was great. We went out to New Mexico. We scouted some locations with Michael Engler and the cinematographer, Manuel Billiter. And we found some really nice locations that we thought would fit well for where this town would be situated and also, like, what the road to this town would look like. And so we. We had a second unit that we went out there and filmed all these plates. We had some horses and carriages to show that journey. And then this one little location called Catspaw, which was nestled within these little rock escarpments and mountains and stuff, felt like a great little spot for a town. It felt like protected. And we decided that's where the town would be. We scanned that whole environment. We did a lot of drone photography that I don't know if you remember. There's one shot that kind of rises up over the rock to reveal the.

[Tom Myers]

Town right at the beginning.

[Bob Shaw]

Yeah.

[Ben Ahlers]

So that was a drone shot that we then placed the town into.

[Tom Myers]

I'm gonna stay in episode one for a second because we cut from Morenci to New York to 61st and 5th, where there's a snowball fight. Right. It's a great winter scene. Both of the staffs are sort of having a snowball fight and frolicking in the snow. How much of that was real?

[Ben Ahlers]

There was a lot of real snow on set. Our special effects department did spray down Epsom salts and FO and all the different kinds of things. But as you know, with the backlot itself is a huge visual effects piece component for the show with us. We extend all those buildings. We then had to extend the snow on all those buildings. We had to extend the snow into the background. We had to make Central park look like the trees had been covered in snow. So you have. Again, it's always that handshake that I like to refer to where it's. Where do we end the Practical stuff. And where does the digital pick up? And then even on top of what was practical, we added some bigger mounds that we just couldn't practically build. Things that, you know, snowdrifts, I would like, pile up against the building or huge mounds that they've been shoveling off. What's practical versus digital, all those things really help the performances, which just make the whole frame better.

[Tom Myers]

Absolutely.

[Alicia Malone]

And in the last episode, we saw Gladys wedding. So did your team work on that event to make it feel even more spectacular?

[Ben Ahlers]

Absolutely. I mean, there's only so many people that we can dress in all those beautiful gowns and everything. So there's a lot of crowd duplication. For that church, we brought in another motion control camera system so that we could do some complex camera moves, but then also be able to duplicate all the people that are there. So it's kind of like you're shooting the same thing over and over again, moving people around to different locations so that then when we get all the pieces later, we can cut them all out, put them in, and you have this full church that's just full of spectacularly beautiful dressed women and men. And then we did small details in there, too. There was something that happened on the day while we were filming where some of the natural light was coming in with the stained glass windows. And you had this color wash that was kind of hitting the pillar at times. But unfortunately, it didn't ever happen while we were actually filming the scene. And it was just something that was so beautiful that we kind of made a mental note of. And we started bringing some of that into the wedding scene in general. So we would add these splashes of color on the columns on the walls, and it just kind of helped congeal this beautiful space together.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Helped make it feel magical, I'm sure.

[Ben Ahlers]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Alicia Malone]

And at the end of that episode, one little magic moment that I noted was as Gladys and the Duke are sailing away through the little porthole, we see New York and we see the Brooklyn Bridge, which was new at the time. You know, what did that involve to kind of create 1880s New York in this little hole, the silly window.

[Ben Ahlers]

That was a very big build for one shot. One moment. Obviously, there is nowhere we can film anything to get that look. So it was a lot of creation on that side of it. We did shoot plates on ferries that go around Manhattan just to kind of get a sense of distance and speed and what that view actually entails. Just to kind of give ourself a baseline. And then we had our Brooklyn Bridge asset from last season. I don't know if you remember all the big fireworks and stuff. So we knew we had to bring that back into it. We had that ready to go. And then we just. Over three seasons, we've been building lots of different buildings for distant work. Right. So we have a library of all historical or period accurate buildings that we can kind of pull from and start to build a skyline. We have lots of photographic reference, historical reference of what the seaport looked like, what different shorelines looked like of the city. And so we used those as our baseline. We kind of like mapped out little buildings to kind of hit that. That. To make that skyline look accurate. One of the things that I love most about that period were the piers that are just bristling with the boat mast. There's just masts everywhere, lines, sails. It just looks messy and like, just really textural and great. And that was something we really wanted to try to capture. So we just filled the boats in there and just like stacked them all up into the depth and it was just really. It was a fun process.

[Tom Myers]

It was messy. Right, Those docks were messy at the time.

[Ben Ahlers]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. And you've kind of brought that some of the grit of old New York to the. To the city, you know, to the streetscape as well. Because I love noting, you know, like, the smoke coming out of the different buildings because, of course, they were burning all kinds of coal and fuel.

[Ben Ahlers]

That's right, yeah. Yep. We're. We're putting smog layers in there. We are at it. We have. It's called the Horse Poop Pass, where we make sure that the street is sufficiently, you know, covered in the detritus of all the animals that are, you know, know, just there all the time.

[Tom Myers]

It's very important, you know, that people will mention it if they say those streets are too clean.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ben Ahlers]

Doesn't look right. Yeah. I mean, the East 61st street obviously has to maintain a little bit of a, you know, a higher brow. They keep it clean, they. They hire their street cleaners, but everywhere else. Yeah, we try to. We try to bring in that messiness.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And I'm sure there's a lot of talk in your field about AI and how that might help or hinder your work, but it strikes me that visual effect effects, even though it involves a lot of computers, it does require a human touch because it's the human eye that can tell if something feels real or doesn't feel real. That kind of uncanny Valley effect.

[Ben Ahlers]

Right, Definitely. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of talk about it. Visual effects have been using aspects of AI for a long, long time. The way our algorithms work to track cameras or all these pattern trackers and stuff, it's all kind of some of that same language that's just now evolving to a different level. The tools are progress quite a bit, but, you know, there is that human aspect that I feel is absolutely necessary. It's like, you know, there's still somebody's vision that needs to be served and to be able to direct those images in a way that is going to, you know, give them the product that they're looking for, whether it's the director, producer, whoever's, you know, behind it. You know, there needs to be somebody who's able to funnel that in the right direction. I don't think the capabilities of them doing it by themselves are just not there yet.

[Tom Myers]

I'm just wondering, because we're now in season three. Is the job getting any easier? Are the visual effects getting any easier? Is there any change to it, or are you able to use effects from previous seasons?

[Ben Ahlers]

That's a good question. I think as you go on with any show, I think there's a. A shorthand you develop with the crew and all that stuff. So the side of doing the job, like, getting things done becomes easier. I think as you keep delivering things for the show, things that they are dreaming up start to get bigger and bigger because you've done something that is very successful, and they're like, oh, well, now what can we do? Or what can we dream up now? And this season specifically, I feel like we've reached out a bit more beyond the city, right? We've gone to the west, we've gone to England. There's, like, the scope is kind of starting to drift open a little bit more, which is lovely. It's really nice. And so that presents a bit of a challenge in the sense that, you know, all the research that we've been doing for the first two seasons holds up for our New York stuff, of course, but now we have to kind of expand our library and see what, you know, where these other aspects, where these other areas, you know, what attention to detail do they need? What can we bring to make. Make those areas just as beautiful or just as detailed as our, you know, 61st street set, for instance.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, it's so fascinating, all of that.

[Ben Ahlers]

Stuff, but, like, we pulled it off, it was successful. And they're just like, all right, well, now what?

[Alicia Malone]

You know, now let's do more.

[Ben Ahlers]

Can we put the Wild west on Long Island.

[Tom Myers]

Sure.

[Ben Ahlers]

Why not?

[Tom Myers]

Create an English castle? Yeah, sure.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, you. You and your team have done a wonderful job once again with this season. So, Douglas, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for talking to us.

[Ben Ahlers]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Bob Shaw]

It's great.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, Tom Douglas is so fascinating to talk with. I mean, his job requires so much, but again, it's one that you shouldn't even notice if it's done right.

[Tom Myers]

That's right. I mean, half of the things that he just mentioned, I hadn't even realized were visual effects. So well done to the entire team. Well, that wraps it up for us today. After you watch the new episode of the Gilded Age on Sunday, listen to or watch our official companion podcast, which is available wherever you find podcasts. Thanks so much for listening.

[Alicia Malone]

Bye.

[Ben Ahlers]

Bye.

[Tom Myers]

This has been the official Gilded Age podcast, written, hosted and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers.

[Alicia Malone]

The podcast is a production of HBO in collaboration with Pod People.

[Tom Myers]

For Pod People. Our supervising producer is Rebecca Chasson, associate producer Sam Gabauer, and our video editor is is Susanna Vasquez. Special thanks to Hannah Pedersen and Amy.

[Alicia Malone]

Machado for HBO Podcasts. Our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt and associate producer is Erin Kelly.