“Ex-Communicated” with Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon, Jordan Donica, and Sonja Warfield

Summary

The Official Gilded Age Podcast: Episode “Ex-Communicated” – Detailed Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: Ex-Communicated
Release Date: August 4, 2025
Guests: Christine Baranski, Cynthia Nixon, Jordan Donica, Sonja Warfield
Hosts: Alicia Malone and Tom Myers
Description: In this episode, Alicia Malone and Tom Myers delve deep into the dramatic events of Season Three, Episode Seven of HBO’s The Gilded Age. Titled “Ex-Communicated,” the episode explores the fallout from Ward McAllister’s controversial book, societal upheavals, and intense character developments. The hosts engage in insightful discussions with esteemed guests, providing exclusive behind-the-scenes perspectives and historical context.

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Recap of Episode Seven: “Ex-Communicated”

The episode begins with Alicia Malone and Tom Myers recapping the tumultuous events of Season Three, Episode Seven, titled “Ex-Communicated.” They highlight the dramatic ending, marked by a shocking twist that leaves listeners eager for the next installment.

Ward McAllister’s Scandalous Book

At the heart of the episode is Ward McAllister’s newly released book, Society, as I Have Found It. Written in 1890 by the real-life socialite Ward McAllister, the book serves as a candid guide to the customs of the upper class. However, it becomes a source of scandal and mockery, revealing the inner workings and lavish expenditures of New York society.

Sonja Warfield explains the book’s content, noting, “McAllister has wild opinions, you know, about the exact way to chill wine and, you know, to attend balls and to do quadrilles” (03:25). While the book offers detailed advice on hosting elaborate dinners and social etiquette, it inadvertently demystifies the exclusivity of high society, leading to widespread mockery in the press.

A significant point discussed is the public reaction to McAllister’s revelations. The New York Times review from October 19, 1890, is cited, where the reviewer mocks McAllister’s “pompous demeanor” and notes that the book “sheds a somewhat garish light upon the society whose leader he is” (06:13). This exposure strains McAllister’s relationships, particularly with Mrs. Astor, a central figure in New York society.

Societal Backlash and Exclusion

Mrs. Astor’s response is swift and severe. She convenes an emergency meeting at Ada's house to address the scandal, ultimately deciding to excommunicate Ward McAllister from society. Sonja Warfield provides historical context, explaining that although McAllister initially faced mockery, his continual revelations led to his eventual exclusion. By 1892, his attempt to list the exclusive 400 members of society fell short, listing only 319 names from 169 families, including himself and Mrs. Astor (08:06).

The hosts discuss how McAllister’s book, despite its limited commercial success, tarnished his reputation irreparably. By his death in 1895, only a fraction of his supposed elite list attended his funeral, with notable figures like Mrs. Astor conspicuously absent (13:14).

Impact on Other Characters and Plot Developments

The fallout from McAllister’s book intertwines with other character arcs. George, a central character embroiled in a precarious railroad deal, becomes the focal point as his financial instability threatens his status. The dynamic between George and Bertha shifts as their once-powerful partnership falters under financial strain, revealing vulnerabilities in their relationship (13:32).

Meanwhile, Lady Sarah’s interactions with the Duke show a softening attitude towards Gladys, hinting at a budding romance. Their evolving relationship contrasts with the ongoing tensions and power plays within the social elite.

Suffrage and Social Progress

A significant subplot in this episode revolves around Ada's transition from hosting temperance meetings to suffrage gatherings. Ada hosts a suffrage meeting with Frances Ellen Watkins Harper, marking a progressive step towards racial and gender integration. Tom Myers highlights the historical significance, stating, “It's really important that the show is bringing up this often overlooked and sometimes inconvenient part of suffrage history” (24:17).

They discuss the challenges faced by the suffrage movement post-Civil War, particularly the racial divisions stemming from the 15th Amendment. The pavilion hosted by Ada is notable for its diversity, featuring both white and black women, a rarity in private elite gatherings of the era (24:24).

Personal Struggles and Family Tensions

The episode delves into personal struggles within the characters’ families. Marian’s decision to call off her wedding with Larry leads to emotional turmoil. Cynthia Nixon’s character, Ada, confronts Marian’s loneliness, emphasizing the pain of unfulfilled love with the poignant line, “I'd be better off as a spinster. (…) This is nothing you want, I can assure you” (18:19). This moment marks a rare instance of Ada expressing genuine anger and vulnerability.

Larry’s reaction to Marian’s letter showcases familial conflict, as he lashes out at his mother, accusing her of using the family as pawns in his endeavors. The tension culminates in a heated exchange, reflecting the strained relationships and high stakes within their social circles (19:35).

Tragic Events and Cliffhangers

A significant turning point occurs when Oscar witnesses the death of John Adams, a traumatic event that deeply affects him. The emotional weight of this scene is palpable, as Oscar grapples with grief and the implications of his relationship with John (27:18).

The episode concludes with a shocking cliffhanger: George is shot in a dramatic confrontation. Alicia Malone reacts with disbelief, highlighting the episode's intense and suspenseful ending (30:10). This unresolved moment heightens anticipation for the next episode, leaving listeners eager to see how George’s fate unfolds.

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Exclusive Interviews and Behind-the-Scenes Insights

After the recap, Alicia and Tom engage in interviews with key guests who provide deeper insights into the episode’s themes and character developments.

Interview with Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon

Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon, portraying Mrs. Astor and Ada, respectively, discuss pivotal scenes and their characters' evolution.

• Christine Baranski on Mrs. Astor’s Authority: Baranski describes Mrs. Astor as the “Agnes of Newport,” wielding significant power within the black elite community. She explains the challenges of portraying a character who embodies both authority and underlying vulnerability. “[...] she is always bringing up how she has arrived at that moment” (33:35).

• Cynthia Nixon on Ada’s Transformation: Nixon reflects on Ada’s shift from temperance to suffrage, influenced by her grief and desire to find purpose post-tragedy. She emphasizes the importance of Ada’s role in fostering unity and social progress within the community. “[...] serving as a bridge between different groups and advocating for suffrage with grace” (35:04).

Interview with Jordan Donica (Dr. Kirkland)

Jordan Donica discusses his portrayal of Dr. Kirkland, highlighting the character’s depth and vulnerability.

• Character Complexity: Donica explains how Dr. Kirkland balances his intellectual accomplishments with emotional struggles, particularly in his relationship with Peggy. “He understands that humans fail and strives to create a space where imperfections are accepted” (45:58).

• Behind-the-Scenes Chemistry: Donica shares his positive experiences working alongside Cynthia Nixon, noting their natural rapport and collaborative approach to character development. “Working with Cynthia, she makes it easy to explore the emotional depths of our characters” (46:54).

Interview with Sonja Warfield (Writer and Executive Producer)

Sonja Warfield provides insights into the writing process and the integration of historical elements into the narrative.

• Collaboration with Julian Fellowes: Warfield describes her collaborative dynamic with Fellowes, involving extensive in-person discussions that shape the episode’s storyline. “[...] we would discuss something over breakfast, talk it through by lunch, and finalize it by dinner” (57:07).

• Balancing History and Storytelling: She emphasizes the importance of character-driven narratives that naturally incorporate historical events, ensuring that historical accuracy complements the dramatic arcs. “Everything starts with character. Historical events are woven into their personal journeys” (60:56).

• Addressing Social Issues: Warfield discusses the delicate balance of portraying complex social issues such as race, class, and gender without overwhelming the storyline. “We approach each issue with respect, ensuring it enhances rather than overshadows the characters’ development” (62:00).

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Key Themes and Historical Context

The episode intricately weaves various themes reflecting the socio-political landscape of the Gilded Age:

1. Social Exclusivity and Scandal: The repercussions of Ward McAllister’s book highlight the rigid social hierarchies and the lengths to which society enforces exclusivity and discretion.

2. Women’s Suffrage and Racial Integration: Ada’s advocacy for suffrage meetings featuring both black and white women underscores the intertwined struggles for gender and racial equality, a nuanced aspect often overlooked in mainstream narratives.

3. Personal vs. Societal Expectations: Characters navigate personal desires against societal expectations, exemplified by Marian’s pursuit of happiness despite social ostracization and Larry’s familial conflicts over financial and social stability.

4. Tragedy and Resilience: The traumatic events experienced by characters like Oscar demonstrate the emotional resilience required to maintain social standing amidst personal loss and public scandal.

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Conclusion and Forward Look

Alicia Malone and Tom Myers conclude the episode by expressing their anticipation for the next installment, eager to unravel the fate of George and continue exploring the rich tapestry of relationships and societal dynamics portrayed in The Gilded Age. They extend gratitude to their guests, celebrating the collaborative spirit that brings historical narratives to life with authenticity and emotional depth.

Notable Quotes:

• Sonja Warfield: “Ward McAllister was no longer welcome at Mrs. Astor's house, which doesn't stop him from pushing past hefty and trying to get inside.” (11:06)

• Cynthia Nixon as Ada: “You have no idea what you're talking about. But there is a profound loneliness in the life of a spinster. It hurts whenever you see couples together.” (18:22)

• Christine Baranski as Mrs. Astor: “Society is hanging by a thread. Ada, this is no time to celebrate.” (32:24)

• Jordan Donica as Dr. Kirkland: “There is no such thing as perfect. [...] He understands that humans fail.” (46:05)

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Final Notes

This episode of The Official Gilded Age Podcast masterfully blends episode recaps with in-depth interviews, offering fans a comprehensive understanding of both the narrative and the historical underpinnings of the series. The hosts' engaging discussions, coupled with expert insights from the cast and crew, provide a rich resource for enthusiasts eager to delve deeper into the complexities of the Gilded Age era as depicted on screen.

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For more detailed discussions and behind-the-scenes content, tune into future episodes of The Official Gilded Age Podcast.

Transcript

[Alicia Malone]

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[Tom Myers]

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[Unknown]

Your ambition is out of control.

We're both ambitious. True.

But when was the last time you.

Asked any of us what we wanted?

You should be surrounded by your family right now. Look around.

Yes, look around, Bertha. Welcome back to the official Gilded Age podcast. I'm Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies, joined as always by my wonderful co host. He hosts the Bowery Boys podcast. It's Tom. Hello.

Hello. Alicia Malone. We thought episode six had a big dramatic ending. Here we go again. I mean, this one's even bigger. It ends with literally a bang.

I know. I don't know why I was smiling just then because I'm actually kind of in shock about what happened and I don't know how to process it. What's going to happen to George?

Yeah, and that's just the end of the episode. We have a lot to talk through in episode seven, so we're gonna get right into that. And then we will be sitting down with our guests today on the show. We have writer and executive producer Sonja Warfield, Jordan donica, who plays Dr. Kirkland. And we'll also have part two of our chat with Agnes and Ada, Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon.

So let's get into the recap. We're talking about season three, episode seven, which is titled Excommunicated. It's written by Julian Fellowes and Sonja Warfield and directed by Sally Richardson. Whitf.

So we begin on the back of a carriage next to boxes and boxes of books that are being hastily delivered to bookstores. And inside the boxes, we find Society, as I have found it, that society tell all book that was written in 1890 by Ward McAllister.

Yeah. And we spoke about this book back in season one, because this was a real book written by the real Ward McAllister, supposedly a guide to the customs of the upper class. But really it was quite a scandalous book, right?

Oh, well, sort of, yeah. I don't think it would strike us as scandalous today because it literally contains hundreds of pages about, like, what to serve at elaborate dinners and how to serve canvas back duck and terrapin. That's turtle to you and me. Yeah. And McAllister has wild opinions, you know, about the exact way to chill wine and, you know, to attend balls and to do quadrilles. I mean, he talks about his favorite quadrilles for, like, dozens and dozens of pages.

So all of this, as well as society gossip.

Yeah, there's. There is some gossip in there. I mean, if. If you read the book, and I encourage that, you go for it. It is from 1890, so it's in the public domain, and it's, you know, you can find it free online, or you can pick up a reprint from your favorite reprint seller. Of course, I mean, it's more fun to actually read and print, but I think. Think that you might find it just kind of tedious. I mean, it's totally over the top. Right, because he's giving you all of this advice about things like, you know, how to seat your guests at a dinner party. If the President of the United States is coming, that's not happening anytime soon. But he also, I mean, writes about families, you know, who are trying to break into society, and he gives advice and offers cautionary tales to them. But there is nothing about anything explicit, you know, like extramarital affairs or. Or people losing fortunes or anything like that.

Okay, so then, did this book actually cause drama? At the time?

There was drama, but there was also a lot of mockery. So first, the drama. Remember that New York society was made up of really, the celebrities of their day, Right. People read about these people in society pages in everyday newspapers. And Ward McAllister was uniquely placed in the very center of that world. With Mrs. Astor. He held a position of authority that he and Mrs. Astor had created together. And with that power came a requirement for discretion and privacy. But instead, he wrote this book. And in it, he kind of draws back the curtains, you know, and shows everybody how it worked. And worst of all, toward the end of the book, in a chapter that's called A New Era in High Society, he talks a lot about money. He talks about, you know, how much the fancy butlers get paid and the French chefs. He talks about how much was spent on particular meals, how much the champagne costs, you know, and this is from the same man who just a couple chapters earlier had talked about if you wanted to be accepted into society, you should never talk about money.

Okay, so maybe he should have followed his own advice there. So it sounds like basically in this book, he was just demystifying this secret upper class society for the masses.

Yeah, I think that's it. But then there's the other part here, the mockery. Okay. His writing in this is so over the top and his advice is so ludicrous that it was also widely mocked in the press. In the book review that appeared on October 19, 1890, in the New York Times, the reviewer openly mocks McAllister, you know, for his, like, pompous demeanor and for the fact that he doesn't seem to be in on the joke himself. He doesn't realize, the reviewer says, that, quote, he is making a continental laughing stock of himself because of this book. McAllister just looked silly. But the bigger problem was actually pointed out in the final line of the review in the New York Times. The reviewer wrote, quote, in writing this remarkable book, he not only illuminates himself, but he sheds a somewhat garish light upon the society whose leader he is. That garish light was the problem here.

Right. So he didn't do himself any favors with this book. And, you know, on the show we've seen this close friendship between Ward McAllister and Mrs. Astor. He is always by her side, but now she is very angry. Mrs. Astor calls an emergency meeting at Ada's house and wants Ward to be exact, communicated. Also, Mamie Fish is not pleased about what was written about her husband.

Mr.

Fish is furious.

Why? What does McAllister say about him? That he's very cheap when it comes to choosing wine.

How horrid.

And how unfair.

Well, it's horrid anyway.

Oh, Agnes. In real life, how was Ward excluded from society?

At first he was mocked, you know, in the newspapers, but then I think he just kept making matters worse for himself. Two years later, in 1892, he attempted to back up that old claim of his that there were only about 400 people in society. He was actually asked to name them, and he provided a list to the New York Times. Unfortunately, There were only 319 names in the list from 169 families, obviously. Among them were Mrs. Astor and Mamie Fish. And of course, Ward McAllister.

Of course. But he never got to that infamous number of 400.

No, he was a little shy there. But even in that New York Times article, they poked fun at him and at that exaggerated way that he had of speaking. So I think that what really happened was that within a couple years of the book's publication, Mrs. Astor and the other leaders were keeping their distance.

Well, also in this show, we see that everyone is reading his book. There are girls in the park reading it. Even Mrs. Armstrong is digging in. And people are openly wondering how much money Ward has made from it. So was this book a big seller?

Well, bestseller lists were not around back then. The first American list came out in 1895, so it is hard to say. Um, I found some ads. I searched around. You know, they advertised. When the book came out in the New York world, um, they advertised that it was now for sale by, you know, in all bookshops. You can just ask to see it. It was $2. Or you could buy one of only 400 limited edition books that were actually signed by McAllister for $10.

I wonder if 400 was a coincidence or a nod to him.

One for every person.

Yeah, that's a lot of money to spend on a book.

$2 was pretty expensive. That was a little bit less than a week's wage for some domestic workers at the time. Six months later, there was an ad in the New York Tribune in April of 1891, when a 50 cent version came out. The ad claimed in widespread demand for a cheaper edition of this now famous book. And a year after that, in an 1892 article, Ward McAllister is quoted stating that he made exactly $3,750 off of the book, or about $132,000 in today's money, stated by a man who said that you should never talk about money.

Exactly. And that's, you know, a decent amount, but probably not worth the price that he ultimately paid for writing the book. And in our episode, we see that Ward is no longer welcome at Mrs. Astor's house, which doesn't stop him from pushing past Hefty and trying to get inside.

You couldn't have done any of that for yourself?

I think I could have done that.

When we met, you were just a sad rich lady whose husband preferred the showgirls on his yacht to spending any time with you. Mrs. Astor. Lena.

Ma', am, Mr. McAllister is leaving.

Can't we just.

He's leaving. And if he ever returns to this house, he is not to be admitted.

Yes, ma'. Am.

Goodbye, Mr. McAllister. Wow, that was surprisingly mean of him. True of what we know about Mr. Astor, but kind of mean all the same.

Yeah, it was a low blow. And cheers, by the way, to Donna Murphy for the way that she plays Mrs. Astor here. Just kind of taking a deep breath and retaining her dignity. Because it was true that Caroline Astor's husband, William Backhouse Astor Jr. Was largely absent from, you know, his wife's New York life, and he was not really discreet about living a much looser and wilder social life of his own with other women, really far away from her. So, yeah, this is pretty low.

Well, one person who agrees to see Ward is Bertha. She brings him over to tell him that she's taking over Mrs. Astor's ball due to the scandal that his book created and also the scandal with Mrs. Astor's daughter. And Bertha tells him that she will end the ban on divorced women. Yay. But also that Ward will not be invited.

The scene kind of made me laugh a little bit, because Bertha invites him over, tells him the big news about the balls, and then informs him that he won't be invited. You know, it's kind of like, I'm sure he was thinking, wow, thanks. Thanks for the tea.

Yeah, it could be the last tea he'll ever get, quote, unquote. Because he admits that his exclusion was more complete than he expected. But what happened to the real Ward after the book was released?

I think he just became less relevant. Right. Which is probably the worst thing that could have happened to him. And when he died in 1895, just five years after the book came out, less than 20 names from his famous 400 list came to his funeral.

Wow. Was Mrs. Asto one of them?

Nope. And not only did she stay away from his service at Grace Church, she threw a dinner party that night.

Oh, gosh. Ouch. All right, well, let's leave Ward behind for a minute and go over to George, because George is really on edge about this railroad deal. He's close to losing everything. He can't be bothered with Bertha's frivolity about balls. And for once, Bertha looks like she doesn't know what to do, but she is starting to realize just how close to ruin they actually are.

Yeah, they've had this power couple dynamic for the first two seasons. Right. He makes the money, and she's in charge of their place in society. But it seems like that dynamic only worked while the money was actually flowing in. Yeah, not even George seems to know what's going to happen now with their family finances or if he's going to be able to make those regular payments for Gladys to the Duke. And by the way, when Lady Sarah hears that he might not be able to make the payment, she snarls, you know, that Hector should send her back. You know, like she's some kind of a broken appliance or something. Fortunately, the Duke seems to finally be warming up to Gladys and actually appreciating her.

Yeah, they have kind of a lovely walk on the grounds together. The Duke does seem to be having a change of heart toward her. And I was wondering whether they might be falling in love, maybe kind of just doing things backwards and get married first and then fall in love later and then.

Right. I mean, it possibly seems that way, especially once he tells her that it doesn't really matter if the father. If George's money doesn't come, it's okay, because I think he says, quote, the money doesn't matter. You do, which is a compliment, I guess. I mean, it's also kind of a weird thing to say to your wife.

Yeah, well, for the Duke, that's a compliment. And later on in the episode, Gladys and the Duke tell Lady Sarah that they are going to go to New Newport to attend Bertha's ball. And they tell her in a. In a very polite yet thinly veiled way, that she needs to move out.

You need some time to yourself.

I'm guessing you agree with him.

Well, I. I want you to have some fun, Sarah, and not work your.

Fingers to the bone running the this place.

Of course you do.

I really enjoyed the way they pitched this idea to her. Like, you know, you've always loved London.

Yeah. Actually, it's a little bit like how, you know, Jack was forced to leave. You know, like, we've got the cash now. It's time for you to head off to London and get a life of your own. Bye bye.

Bye bye, Lady Sarah. Well, back in New York, Church has set his trap to catch out Andre as the spy. And it worked. He sees her in the park getting an envelope from a man which we learned contained $40, and they throw her out.

I like the mistress and all of.

You, but money is money.

Well, I have to say, I kind of agree. I mean, $40 per story would be a lot of money for a lady's maid in the 1880s.

Yeah, yeah. It would be like $1,300 today, which is not bad. It's many times her weekly pay. Right. And these scandalous stories really did get sourced from domestic Workers and printed in newspapers like Town Topics.

And was there anything that their employers could do about it?

Well, one thing they could do is they could pay off Town Topics publisher William Delton Mann. In fact, Alva Vanderbilt's first husband, William K. Vanderbilt, paid him, or rather, I'm sorry, officially lent him $25,000 to suppress stories. And he wasn't alone. JP Morgan paid $2,500. I guess his stories were less interesting, but still, he paid him off. And, you know, meanwhile, other families did resort to planting fake stories, like we see on the show. In Greg King's book, Don't make me pick it up here, A Season of Splendor, he writes that, quote, if the false information then appeared in print in In Town Topics, they knew that they had been betrayed.

Well, Church looks very pleased that his ruse has worked. But let's talk about Marian. Larry arrives home and reads Marian's letter, which is calling off the wedding, and he's very, very sad about it. She remains determined that they cannot be together, even though Peggy and Ada both encourage her to actually talk to him, give him a chance. And during all of this, Marian says something to Ada that makes Ada bristle.

I'd be better off as a spinster.

That way I won't get hurt.

You have no idea what you're talking about. But there is a profound loneliness in the life of a spinster. It hurts whenever you see couples together. You mask the pain with a smile, but you don't deceive yourself. This is nothing you want, I can assure you.

I think this is the first time we've ever seen Ada get mad. It's also another great bit of acting by Cynthia Nixon because you see the pain of loneliness that she has experienced herself. And she basically tells Marian that it's better to have loved and lost than never loved at all.

Yeah, I agree. This moment seems, in a way, to see stop the show in its tracks. Right. And I don't think there's any chance that Marian's going to make that mistake again. And then meanwhile, Larry is emotionally all over the place because, you know, he reads that his engagement is off, and then he tells his father that their fortune has been saved because of the copper. And then he turns around and lashes out at his mother, suspecting that she has caused the rupture with Marian.

Is my whole family against me now?

Ever since you started using us as pawns in your plan to dominate the world.

You must understand, I only want what's best for you.

No, you don't.

You want what's best for you. First of all, Larry, show some respect to your mother. And by the way, she didn't do anything.

Well, I mean, it's not unthinkable that she might have done something. Although here Bertha is actually innocent. Yes.

Then meanwhile, a little bit like Ward McAllister barging in on Mrs. Astor, Larry barges into Marian's classroom and she finally explains why she broke off the engagement. Which boils down to, one, he lied about where he was the night that they got engaged, and two, he went to a house of ill fame. But nothing happened, he says.

Yeah. And even Jack tries to reassure Marian that Larry did nothing wrong. By the way, they talked about this while Jack is house hunting.

Yeah. We'll come back to the larian drama, but during this house hunting scene, I don't know, I somehow felt worse for Jack than I had before. I mean, I feel like once you see him in a big, fancy house, right, with no friends that we know of, and standing in a room with, like, a thousand plates and glasses, you realize that he's unlikely to use those plates, right? Or, for that matter, many of the rooms in the house. He's gonna be lonely. I mean, did you also feel kind of bad for him?

Well, I did. I wondered what he was gonna do with all his time now that he's not working. And I also wondered whether he's gonna make new friends. I hope so.

I hope so. Yeah. At least Marian was with him. Although I don't know how often she'll be coming to dinner. Anyhow, most notably, Jack insists to Marian that Larry did nothing wrong that night.

Yeah. And meanwhile, as we said, Larry has saved his family by finding copper in the mines. And this is a fact which George lords over Wriothesley, sage and Clay. And Sage very quickly turns on Clay, calling him a fool, and fires him.

It's the second time that Clay's been fired this season. There's so much firing of clay that you gotta put a glaze on it. Alicia. Pottery joke. Pottery joke. Anyway, yes, Clay is clearly unstoppable. And he says, using a simile that every New Yorker can appreciate.

I'm like.

A cockroach with a thousand lives.

Ugh. That kind of made my skin crawl the way he said that. Anyway, in better news, Ada has agreed to host a suffrage meeting with Frances Ellen Watkins Harper. And we get a pumpkin sighting. I think this is the first time all season we've seen little pumpkin.

Pumpkin is clearly being underused. We gotta talk to somebody about that. It is also really nice to See, Ada publicly acknowledged, you know, for hosting the meeting in her home. And everybody claps for her. Even Agnes kind of. Kind of claps. It's interesting. This season, Ada has gone from hosting temperance meetings to suffrage.

Yeah. And I noticed that this gathering was about half white women, half black women. So I wondered whether these meetings usually had this kind of diversity.

Yeah, that's a good observation. And stepping back for a second. After the Civil War, the suffrage movement was deeply divided over race, even in the north, because the 15th Amendment, which had been ratified in 1870, gave black men the right to vote, but white women still couldn't vote, which was upsetting to many suffrage leaders who believed that white women should have the vote before black men. And so there was a split, and it also left black women in the suffrage movement in a position where they were fighting against not only sexism, but also racism. And on the show, we hear Ada say that Agnes is a supporter of asa, which was the American Woman's Suffrage Association. It had formed in 1869, and it supported the 15th amendment. So it was more progressive than its rival, the National Woman Suffrage association, which believed that white women should have the right to vote before black men. So I think it's really important that the show is bringing up this often overlooked and sometimes inconvenient part of suffrage history, that in this fight for suffrage, there wasn't just sexism, but there was also racism.

Yeah. And Aida says that all the women there are stronger when they're together, which is very true. But was this cause integrated?

Well, the supporters were a diverse group of people, but how often did they all come together? Frances Ellen Watkins Harper, who is our speaker here on the show, really did help found Asa, and she really did want men and women, black and white, to be able to vote. Also, in the 1880s, she was very involved in the temperance movement. For her, those two causes were linked together in a bigger fight for social justice. But in terms of the Van Rhijn house, hosting a group that was half black and half white in 1884, that would have been very, very progressive and probably also very unlikely. It's, you know, it's hard to research this kind of thing, but I couldn't find any newspaper articles about wealthy private homes, you know, hosting events for a mixed crowd like this. You would find mixed gatherings at reform meetings, you know, that were held in public spaces and in churches and things, but in private homes of wealthy society families, that would have been very, very gutsy. So go, Ada. And just. Just take note as you're watching the show of how many non white faces you see attending the balls and the tea parties and the fancy dinners in Mrs. Astor's world. And it will sink in that even in the north here, there was strict segregation.

Peggy was at that meeting. And we also see her this episode having a Lovely picnic with Dr. Kirkland in Prospect Park. But then Mrs. Kirkland hears gossip about Peggy's past, and immediately she marches to New York to go and bombard her son at work to tell him.

Yeah, they make, by the way, getting back and forth between Newport and New York look so easy. It probably was easier back then than it is today. But, yeah, you can see from the sneaky smile that Mrs. Kirkland has that she was just thrilled to hear about this tragic information. It's really kind of sad the way that she says over and over. I see.

Yeah. And when I was watching this, I realized that Mrs. Kirkland and Bertha are actually quite similar because they both have plans for their children and say they want the best for them, but they only end up pushing their children away because they cannot stop meddling.

Very true on that. I think we should then turn to a son who has kept quite a bit of his life from his mother, Oscar. Now, last episode's shocking final scene where John Adams gets killed by passing carriage. You know, it happened right in front of Oscar, and he is clearly struggling with this in this episode. And he sits down in a daze with John's sister, who, it turns out, knew about their relationship because she and John kept no secrets.

Yeah, I know. And she tells Oscar that John wanted him to have his summer cottage.

He thought of everything. He thought of you.

That's very sweet, but also a sad moment. And later, Oscar mentions to Agnes that this summer cottage is near Livingston Manor. Do I have that right?

That's right. In upstate New York in the Catskills. It is a small hamlet today of about a thousand residents. And it was indeed, as we hear Agnes say, founded in 1750 by Robert Livingstone. And never forget that, you know, Agnes is related to Robert Livingston through her mother.

Oh, yes, she won't let us forget it. But also during this scene, you know, Oscar's grief just spills over in front of Agnes and Ada and Marian. He almost says that he should have taken my rightful place at Jon's funeral. And Ada and Marian quickly try to cover for him. But Agnes looks like she might be starting to understand the nature of Oscar and John's relationship.

Yeah, she has a steely look. We don't know if she's angry if she's afraid, if it's sinking in, it's kind of hard to say. But at this moment he really needs comforting. And that comfort comes not from his mother, but his, you know, but from his cousin Marian. She says that she may not totally understand it all, but that she loves him and that she will never abandon him. And it's really, I think, a very touching scene.

Yeah, it's a lovely moment. But I had to think about how this would work in real life. I mean, what a woman like Agnes and also a woman like Marian have known about gay relationships.

I can only speculate, you know, that all of the women closest to Oscar would probably have known to some degree, you know, if they chose to think about it. People clearly knew about same sex attraction and clearly John was open with his sister. But it probably would have been dealt with, you know, like many other inconvenient social situations, you know, like marital infidelity. According to the rules of society, you simply wouldn't talk about it or you know, at least publicly. For all anybody needed to know. Oscar was a bachelor with a very close male friend. And that was all that needed to be said.

Okay, well, as we were saying earlier, we thought we had a big shock ending to the previous episode, but little did we know what would happen at the end of this one. So George is in his office with Brinkley when a man named Jones informs him that a cab is here. Then a messenger arrives and he shoots Jones and then points his gun at George and fires. I mean, I just couldn't believe what I was seeing.

I know. Neither could I. I mean, it was like I jumped again two episodes in a row. And with, you know, such a surprise. And here, I mean, George. George has been shot. We think.

I think. I don't know. And I don't know how much mole my heart can take with all these jump scares. I was also wondering whether were historical parallels to this scene. I mean, I imagine robber barons might have been targeted in this way.

Yeah, they were. Remember last season we talked a lot about the Homestead strike in Pennsylvania. Because during the season George's workers went on strike. They nearly battle it out. Well, in real life, following the 1892 Homestead Strike, an anarchist named Alexander Berkman shot Henry Clay Frick in his New York office, hitting him in the shoulder and the neck and then stabbed him.

Oh my gosh. Did he survive that?

He did. And not only did he survive, he was back at work on Monday. I can only hope that we can say the same for George.

Well, we can't lose George. And I'm sad that we have to wait a whole nother week to find out what's gonna happen to him.

Yeah, that brings our recap to a rather dramatic ending, but we still have a lot to discuss. We will sit down in a moment with Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon, Jordan donica, who plays Dr. Kirkland, and writer and co executive producer Sonia Warfield. Stay tuned.

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Are you smiling?

Lena Aster thanked me for holding the meeting here.

Society is hanging by a thread. Ada, this is no time to celebrate.

Still, it was nice of her.

I love Ada's face there. Welcome back to the official Gilded Age Podcast. I'm Alicia Malone, joined again by Tom Myers.

I'm always happy as well when Ada gets a little bit of love. And we can now talk about some of that love because we are going to play part of the interview that Alicia and I recorded with Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon when we were all together a few weeks ago in New York City. Well, Cynthia Nixon and Christine Baranski, welcome back to the official HBO Gilded Age Podcast. Thank you so much.

There's a great moment in episode seven where Mrs. Astor has called an emergency meeting about Ward McAllister's book and she thanks Mrs. Forte having the meeting. And Cynthia, Ada looks quite pleased by this, right? Yes.

Ada is so eager to grow into her new stature that any crumb from anyone ignores.

That's the ultimate for Mrs. Astor to.

Understand that I am of the lady.

You have arrived at that moment.

Definitely, yes.

Yeah. You also seem rather elevated, right, that this meeting is happening here in your sitting room.

Would you believe that may be the only time, except for meeting in church from a distance, that I am with Mrs. Russell. Mrs. Russell has never been in our home. And in some ways it's a regret of mine that more wasn't made of Mrs. Russell's Crossing the threshold, crossing over to our house. And I would love to to have had a scene with Carrie with Agnes and Mrs. Russell, Agnes and Bertha, just, you know, what private conversation would they have or what conversation would the three of us have? It's protected because we're in a group and we're all gathering together because what are we going to do about this gossip book? But it's still a desire of mine that someday those two women or the three of us could figure out how to have a dialogue about our lives.

Did you take Carrie on a little tour of the house when she came over?

No.

Well, one thing we see Ada struggling with throughout the whole season is her grief after Luke Forte's death and trying to find a cause and a purpose for her life. And in episode seven, she hosts the suffrage meeting. So do you think she's changed from temperance to suffrage?

Yes, I think she has. And I think she's been influenced by the people around her, including Marian, including Agnes, including Peggy. That, you know, temperance was a cause that was dear to her, but she couldn't seem to drum up any support for it, really, to those closest to her. So suffrage seemed to be a thing that we could all unite on. And so it's an exciting. It's an exciting moment.

It's great. It's great that this show, I mean, we're talking about certain time in American society that was. So much was happening. And I love that we do have an opportunity to let the audience in on what was going on. The temperance movement was very strong, that women's suffrage, the black community that probably Americans don't even realize that there was a thriving black middle class. That whole storyline with Peggy is so interesting, and I kind of wish the show would continue just as a history lesson for people to learn. So many people don't know about the Gilded Age. One of the reasons is it's so hard to produce a show about the Gilded Age because you need a lot of money. Because people. It was the Gilded Age. You need the sets and the costumes and. Well, thanks to hbo, we have this show, but there's so much American history we could cover.

Yeah, there's so much, obviously, grandeur of the period, but there is also things are changing in every way.

Look at the robber barons. We have our own robber barons now, don't we? We have our own government corruption. We have, you know, the people with huge amounts of wealth getting in there and influencing the government, as in, you know, buying election. We have income inequality just as they did. There's so many similarities.

Yeah, yeah. And we have. Right. We had the industrial revolution and today we have the tech revolution. Unbelievable amounts of money being made, and yet by the people at the top, the desire being so much like, to not pay anybody a penny more than they absolutely have to.

Yeah. And the conspicuous wealth. I mean, people love to see us in the costumes and the whole thing, but uptown people were living like royalty, like French or English royalty, obsessed with. With the, you know, trappings of wealth and the ex. The externals of wealth. And Lower Manhattan, people were living in absolute squalor.

Yeah. And it touches on women's rights and gay rights, too, with Oscar.

There's the scene in this episode as well, when Oscar comes back and he's completely devastated and breaks down in front of his whole family. Poignant. It was amazing watching Agnes's face. What was she processing or thinking?

I think she knew, but didn't even know how to deal with it. Just thought it was utterly tragic. Utterly tragic. There's so many levels of sadness to that, but I. That's. That was a beautiful scene. Blake was so.

And I feel like we really, of course, most of all Agnes, but I feel like each of us, Marian and Ada, too, that there was this moment of sort of shock and a certain degree of realization of what's going on, but an agreement, you know, nothing shared. Even after Oscar leaves. Nothing shared between the three women. We all just pretend. Let's just move past that and whatever that was, we'll just put it aside.

You know, I'm glad the show went there.

I am, too.

Me, too. And I love seeing all the characters back for another season. And it seems like over the years, you must know your characters very well and have developed friendships with all the actors on set. What is it like getting to do a third season?

One of our favorite things is, you know, there's long waits in between takes as they, you know, reconfigure the room, or they're changing the lighting, and we're all sitting down and we're all gossiping and, you know, eating our snacks with our humongous dresses, and we can barely fit into our little. And we're eating out of plastic boxes. And that's how we get to know each other and get to know the young actors, which I just. I just love getting, you know, that's when we get to know each other.

Well. Let the sober circus begin.

Oh, the sober circus.

Yes.

And then let it end.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you, Alicia. That was so fun to get to sit down and to get to talk not only about episode one with them, but then to jump to the end of the season and talk about seven like that with them.

I know. And they were so game for that because we literally went from episode one to be like, let's talk about episode seven right now.

Now we're gonna jump.

And they just went with it. They're such pros. But speaking of pros, and also one of our new favorite characters of the season. You didn't get to do this interview with me because you had a good excuse. It was your birthday. But I got to do the virtual junket with Jordan Donnica, who plays Dr. Kirkland, and he was a delight. Here he is. Well, Jordan, it's so nice to meet you. How are you?

I'm doing well. How are you?

I'm good. I'm excited to talk to you all about this season and your character. And so apparently you need to be a Broadway star to join the cast of the Gilded Age, because you are one of them. What was it like for you to step into this cast that is full of Tony Award winners and nominees?

Nothing short of a blessing and a privilege. A lot of people describe it as theater camp. I never went to theater camp, so I can't make that same analogy. But if this is what theater camp felt like, it feels amazing. These people are legends of the field, and I'm just honored to be among them and in their presence and working alongside them and learning from them.

I'm still waiting for a musical episode of the Gilded Ages so we can use all your talents.

You know, we all are. Danae and I have been pitching a Christmas themed musical episode. Why not? You know, let's see the Van rhijns caroling down 61st Street.

I would love that. That'd be so fun. So what was it like for you coming into season three of a show, you know, when the world is already quite fully realized?

You know, actually, I had not seen the show prior to my joining when I was asked to audition and read the scripts and meet with Sonia and Michael. I didn't want to watch the show because I didn't want it to color my opinion or any of their writing. So I read they sent me the first three episodes, only the scenes of my character and everything. And I've done a lot of period piece work on stage, particularly in this same time period in France and in London. So now it's just the same time period, but here in America. So I brought all that research from all of those years of experience to the table, and I met with them. We talked for about an hour and a half. I gave them my interpretation of what they had written, how I viewed the character, how I viewed the world, and it was just kind of like it immediately clicked. Then I got the job. And so I was like, all right, I should watch the show now. And it's very rare as an actor where you read something and your imagination as it's written on the page is exactly what it turns out to be on the camera. And as I watched the show, I was like, oh, my goodness, this is exactly how I imagined it to be. I know exactly how I can step into this world with confidence and support what they've already created and add to it as well. I attribute that to my experience in the theater.

Yeah. I'm sure being someone that likes to research, it was very special for you to get to be directly involved in so many scenes that spoke to the little known history of the black elite in Newport. You're at a baseball game, you talk about going to a ball. I mean, that must have been fascinating.

To learn about absolutely all of those things. And usually the pieces that I've done, it's not about that. So for this to actually, not just for me to not only bring my research on free black Americans from the American Revolution into the picture, but for it to be about that and for it to be on the page and it's not subtext, it's what the story is, was such a blessing because we don't get to tell those stories. And oftentimes we're told that if we do, it's a fantasy. But nah, this is real. This was reality. Yeah, the characters names are different, but there were people who inhabited these lives and lived these lives during this time. And so to walk the steps that they've walked and to tell their story, I don't take that lightly.

And when we spoke to Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar, she talked about how important it was not only to engage in these very real. But also to show black joy on the screen at this time, which we see with your character and with Danae Benton's character, Peggy. I mean, you guys are so sweet together.

Yeah. It's important, right, to not just show black struggle. And that's the whole point of my character and my character's family, is that we are a pre Revolutionary war free black Americans, you know, and those people did exist. And much to the chagrin of a lot of educators and the educational system here in America would tell you those people existed. And so to inhabit that and to bring that joy and that history of the American Negro Baseball League and to go to a game and just be in our own skin and to be joyful and comfortable in our own skin and not be looking over. No one's looking over their shoulders out of fear for what may or may not happen to them or how people are looking at them or reacting to them. Again, it's a blessing. And to be able to portray that and give that gift to other people who watch is also a blessing to give us agency in our own stories and our own history.

And we are on team Dr. Kirkland here on the podcast. He is such a great character. You know, he's intelligent, he's accomplished, he's kind. But also he's human. I mean, I love the walk on the rocks with Peggy where he stumbles and then laughs at himself for not being so dignified. Was that important to you? To kind of not make him too perfect, to show that human side?

There is no such thing as perfect. And I think how he loves is a perfect example of that, too. You know, he.

He.

He's not out here judging anybody. He's. He. He understands that humans fail. You know, he understands the nature of human. Of his family's getting together, and that was imperfect, you know, and he can relax around Peggy, you know, in a way that maybe he doesn't get to relax around his mom. He has to ratchet up the. He has to play a slightly different role around his mother. But then when he's around his own generation and around the people his. His love, he can start to let that go. And Peggy gives him that space to let that go, too. And I think that's all he's craving, you know, is a partner who allows him to be imperfect as well and who can teach him how to be a better man. And Peggy, she gives that to you in spades. Like, it's.

Yeah, she's such a delight. She's also brought so much to this character, you know, on and off the screen, of how she's created Peggy and really advocated for her. What was it like to have her as your scene partner?

A dream. We did New York City Centers into the woods together a few years ago. And so when I found out I was going to be joining the show, I texted her, and we just immediately started talking and reconnecting. And she makes it easy, you know, she. She makes falling in love with her easy. You just have to look at her eyes and it's done. But then you listen to her speak and how she speaks her danae, and you see how that's reflected in her character of Peggy. And that was one thing that I also wanted to, like, be clear on in reading it, that, like, it's not just some guy who's coming in and seeing this sickly girl and like, oh, she's cute. I like her. No, he's falling in love with her intellect. He's falling in love with her writing. He's falling in love with her dreams, and he's falling in love with all the things that she's accomplished for herself, but also the black community and the greater community of women at large in terms of her suffrage work. So, Danae, in the same way that Felicia and Audra and everyone on the show does their work, everyone has a respect for who they play, a respect for the story they're telling, and a point of view. And so when everybody has that, the work is easy. It all just becomes exploration, and we can meld our worlds and our work together. And it's just been so synergetic.

Yeah. I also wanted to ask you about Phylicia Rashad and being at the other end of one of Mrs. Kirkland's tight smiles.

Yeah.

What is that?

Like, you can't hide. You know, like, Felicia is the type of person, when she looks at you, you feel like she's looking at your soul. So even if you were wanting to hide something, there's nowhere to hide. And I believe that acting is the pursuit of truth.

Truth.

It's not pretending to be something else. It's actually pursuing truth. And she's amazing to do that with. And she's an amazing example of fighting positively for what you believe in as a character. And she fights for her character and her. And I would have discussions in character about her points of view and why she felt the way she felt, because that helps to inform me and my work in my scenes. And because I think that Dr. Kirkland, he rebels in little ways against his mother, I think, over the course of his whole life. But he also loves her so much. The cane that I carry in the show, I got to choose my ring. I got to choose my cane. I chose a ring that has a bridge on it because I feel like my character is a bridge between the black and white world, between the different generations and amongst his own people, between the colorism aspects that. That the show deals with. And then I chose the cane. The handle of my cane is a gold elephant, and I chose the elephant because elephants are a matriarchal society, naturally, in the wild. And I view our. The Kirkland household as a very matriarchal. Even though my father is the pastor and leader of our community, it's my mom who runs the show. And Working with Felicia, she just made it so easy, and she was so accessible and so open, and we could have disagreements and still laugh. You know, like you said, it's a cutting smile, but she's still gonna be gentle with you. And she's still your mother. She still loves you. She's like, I just want what's best. And she sincerely does want what's best. And that's what I mean when I say everybody has a respect for the story that they're trying to tell and is approaching it with such love and dignity and care that it makes the natural conflict that much more compelling.

It's really interesting the issues that are explored between the Kirklands and the Scots. You mentioned colorism. There's also classism there. Did you work with Dr. Dunbar on some of those nuances?

Certainly we did. She was one of the first people I met with when I got the job, and I sat and chatted with her and another producer for upwards of two or three hours. And we also. We FaceTimed as well, a few times, just about the history of free black America, because I always assume, like, Africans sailed on boats here long, long, long time ago, long before the slave trade. But I didn't really know the history in terms of the recorded, documented history. And it's pretty extensive. It's not often you work on a show where you have an asset like Dr. Dunbar to help guide you along the way, but also leave room for your creative input as well. The research I had done also meshed beautifully with hers. So learning all of these things, even though, like, that's not necessarily my character, like, we. We're pred by 10 years. But knowing all of that history just helps to inform and gives me agency to be like, no, I do belong in this time and space, telling this story with all of these people. This is the first time in my career that has not just been welcomed, but it has been the story that we're telling.

Yeah. And all of that, I'm sure, is such a fabric, then the. That melds into your performance. And I imagine the same could be said as, you know, going to somewhere like Newport.

I know it sounds weird, but it's like that weird, musty smell. It's like, yeah, I'm smelling 150 years ago. You know, like the blood, sweat and tears that these people put into building this community. You can't fake that energy. And you draw on it. You draw on that energy of the ancestors and all the people who have walked through these spaces.

The smell of history.

Yeah, it's Like a library.

Yeah, exactly. I love that smell. So on this episode of the podcast, we are focusing on episode seven. And this is where Mrs. Kirkland finds out about Peggy's past, and she rushes back to New York to tell William all about it. What do you think William is feeling at that moment when he hears this news?

All of what he's feeling has less to do with Peggy and her actions and more to do with his own mother. Of, like, why are you the one telling me this? This is no one's business but Peggy's business. So why is this information in people's mouths in the first place? It's that I think he gets very defensive about. For Peggy on. On Peggy's behalf. But I also think that he's still hopeful as a juxtap what everyone. What Aurora Fane and what divorce is doing in the white community. I think he's hopeful when he's like, but is she divorced? Like, okay, you're telling me she was married. She had a child, but that's okay because she was still married to the guy. And if the child died, like, that's not her fault. Whereas in my mom's eyes, well, she's a divorced woman. It doesn't matter. She's. She's tainted anyways. It's like, no, I need to hear it from Peggy because I see through my mom's intentions. Right. She's been trying to destroy this all season long, and now she's coming in with this information out of nowhere in the middle of my workplace, which is incredibly unprofessional. Like, this is my place of business, and you're coming in here, Levy, like, levying these claims against the woman you know, I love. But you think it's just a fling. I guess I haven't expressed my love in that. In that way, but it's just. It's the shock of all of that, so that I immediately have to be like, you know what? Just stop talking. I'm just gonna go and talk to her myself. Now his confusion is trying to reconcile how someone I love so much can hurt someone else I love so much.

Yeah.

And what do I. What do I do with that? How do I move forward with that? How can we be in the same space together?

Yeah. He's in a tough position, being between two very strong women. What would you say the biggest thing you Learned from playing Dr. Kirkland this season?

When we got done filming, I said, I'm gonna miss playing this guy. Cause I really. I don't think I've fallen In love with the character this way before. I admire his work ethic, I admire his moral ethic. There's a lot in him that I would like to say I see in myself, too, just in terms of the agency that he is attracted to when it comes to, like, being drawn to Peggy. It's. It's not just her physical nature. It's her spirit, it's her intellect. It's her ability to think outside the box and to teach him something. God, there's just so much about him that I absolutely love. I don't think there's a quality that he contains that I. That I dislike. I think the thing that perhaps I admire the most is that he. He. He would walk through fire for people. Peggy, you know, I've never proposed. I've never been engaged. I've never gone to the depths of that kind of feeling for someone. And so to explore that really, truly, deeply has been a blessing and has taught me more about myself as well.

Well, he's a wonderful character, and you're a great addition to the show. So, Jordan, thank you so much for your time.

I appreciate it. Thank you for yours.

So, Tom, that was Jordan Danica, and. And I think you would have really liked him because he is quite like Dr. Kirkland in that he is very sweet and charming and intelligent. Just a nice guy.

Yeah, I wish I had been there. He seemed really sweet. I was able to join you, however, as you and I sat down with writer and executive producer of the series Sonja Warfield. Here's the interview. Welcome back on the podcast, and congratulations on season three.

Thank you so much. I'm happy to be back.

When we last spoke, you talked about how you collaborate with Julian Fellowes on the show and how you work together. Can you remind our listeners and our viewers how you do that?

Yes. My collaboration process with Julian Fellowes is very unique and lots of fun. And we actually collaborate in person a good deal because they will send me over to England. We might discuss something over breakfast, and then, like, at lunch, kind of talk it through, and then by dinner, we've got the whole thing.

And those breakfast, lunch, and dinners. Do you have to change gowns between those meals?

I don't, because I'm American. And I mean, the caveat is not that, just that I'm American. I'm really. I've lived in California for many, many years, probably too long. And California is known for its athleisure, which is really just a peg above wearing your pajamas. And so one of my first dinners at Julian's house. You know, people change for dinner. And I was in viori leggings and I was like, this is how it is. This is it.

I mean, I've heard Julian Fellowes say that he relies on you to give the American perspective for the show. Were you a history buff prior to working on the Gilded Age?

Yes, I am still a history buff. I loved watching a lot of historical documentaries and Edith Wharton is one of my favorite novelists. I will tell you, working on this show has been this masterclass in history, especially the history of the black elite in this country. And so I have a one on one, you know, tutorship with Dr. Erica Dunbar. How lucky am I? So I am learning so much from history, from this incredible expert, and it is fascinating and illuminating and I'm so grateful we get to bring some of that to the screen.

Yeah, me too. I'm learning so much about American history through watching the show and doing this podcast and interviewing people like Dr. Dunbar. And there are so many themes being explored this season. I mean, learning all about divorce, about Consuelo Vanderbilt, the transcontinental railroad, the black elite in Newport. Were there any storylines that you have found particularly fascinating this time around?

Yes, the divorce storyline. Because when Julian first told me about it and he talked about how these women were really excommunicated from society if they got divorced, and I said, wow, times have not changed that much because I got divorced in 2006 and I'll never forget the first year we were separate. My ex husband were separated and there was this kind of annual Easter brunch that I had planned with a mutual friend of ours and her family. And I called her that year before Easter to say, okay, like, what is our plan for brunch this year? And she said, well, you're not invited. They had chosen to be friends with my ex and welcome them and not me. And so when he told me that about that story in the 1880s, I said, oh, well, we have not really come. I mean, we've come far in some ways, but socially, sometimes, you know, people pick friends, people pick sides, and it's still relevant today. So that story did resonate with me.

That's amazing that you can bring your own experience into this and you're tackling some really big, you know, issues as well this season. There's temperance, there's suffrage, there's the black elite in Newport. How do you balance, I guess, telling, you know, the history without it overwhelming the story?

Well, because for us, everything starts with character. And so Ada is trying to fill A void that's left in her marriage. And she chooses temperance to fill a void that's left from her deceased husband. And the character of Elizabeth Kirkland, she has certain prejudices. Now that's not true for her husband. It is true for her character. And so we see how that plays out with Peggy and with William and the Scott family because that is true to who that character is. I had two grandmothers, both who were terrified of me being in the sun. And one was a very light skinned black woman of Native American descent and the other one was a darker skinned black woman, but her father was biracial. So I got it from both sides and I always thought this is something that happens and no one ever talks about this and you know, this had originated back here. So this is when it all started.

And we've really enjoyed watching phylicia rashad as Mrs. Kirkland. I heard you describe the character as kind of the Agnes of Newport. Can you tell us about that?

She considers herself old money and she is, you know, for a black family, she's established old black elite Newport and she looks down her nose at many other people and she also runs the roost like she's. She's a bit of Agnes/ Mrs. Astor of Newport because her husband's position in the church gives her a lot of authority and power and she wields it.

But even the characters we've been, you know, watching since season one have had some pretty tumultuous times in season three. So many twists in the lives of, well, Agnes and Ada, of course, Jack, of course, Oscar, the list goes on. Marian, of course. Is it fun for you in your position to play with their lives? Do you sort of enjoy turning their storylines upside down? Sometimes that's all I do.

I mean, I don't.

Yeah.

What's fun for me is to put characters under pressure because then you see what they're really made of. And I have a friend who, she got global entry so that she doesn't have to deal with customs or airport or people or whatever. And I said, let me tell you something, I get so much material from watching people at the airport from good old customs line because that husbands turn on wives, mothers turn on their children, everything is out the window because you're trying to get through this line and you put these people under pressure and it's like their airport Personas come out that in fact are a part of who they are.

That's awesome. Like you're the only person in the world who loves waiting in an airport line. What a great philosophy.

I love that.

That's fun. But let me ask you, though, what are you doing with Larian?

You know, listen, so many people get in their own ways. I know I have gotten in my own way in terms of romance. And I think, listen, if they're meant to be together, they'll be together. Choose some real insecurity. And she's got a past. And as we know, society is harder on women. And Aunt Ada tells her that. And men are given a lot of freedom to even make public mistakes that doesn't stick with them. For example, Charles, he stepped out on Aurora and now he's getting married. And she's the one who has to bear the brunt of it in society. And Marian has three engagements now, and that's gonna follow her. You know, it's a pejorative. There's a pejorative connotation to having three engagements.

Yeah. I mean, you've definitely tugged at our heartstrings this season. You've also made us jump in fright with John Adams getting killed by a horse and carriage. That was a real shock and really sad. And the end of this episode, George possibly being shot, I mean, we have to wait to see what happens with him. You like to end with a bang. These episodes. Don't you keep.

Absolutely. Yes.

Well, you do it well. So talk to us about what happens during filming. Are you there on set? I am every day.

Yes. Yeah, it's fantastic to be on set. And what I've always enjoyed about being on set, because I've been in this business since 2003, I think. Yeah, 2003 is what the actors and the directors and the artists bring. Right. So I can imagine something and then the actor takes a line and makes it their own. And it just sounds 10 times better than I ever imagined in my head. Or the director makes a choice and it just comes together and I look at it on screen and I'll just say that there was a moment in the final episode on set when I started crying.

Join the club.

And you've been working in television for such a long time. You've worked on shows like Will and Grace. What is it that makes. Makes the Gilded Age particularly special?

You know, Will and Grace was a comedy, it was a sitcom. And didn't always hold for what was real or get to a place of authenticity, or else if we did, we would have to have a scene blow. So we always had to get that laugh in. And what I love about the Gilded Age is that we can have those real moments you know, there's this beautiful scene, I don't remember what episode it's in with Marian and Ada. And she says to her, you know, maybe it would be better if I were a spinster, because Ada had been a spinster. And Ada tells her, you don't want that. You don't know what you're talking about. You don't know what it's like to see people, couples dancing and not be.

A part of that.

And, I mean, Cynthia and Louisa were amazing in that scene. And Sally, the way Sally directed it. But when I wrote that scene, it brought tears to my eyes because I felt it, because I. Not that I'm a spinster, but, you know, have had long periods of being single and have had to watch couples and, you know, you smile and you act like everything's fine and it's not. And so I. It was just seeing that scene come to life was very emotional.

Yeah. Well, you've definitely done your job this season. Making us cry, laughter, jump out of our skin, and can't wait to watch more. So congratulations on season three. I'm sure you're feeling lots of love from the fans and thank you for joining us on the podcast.

Oh, thank you so much. Glad you're doing the podcast. And yes, thank you to all the fans. I appreciate it.

Thanks so much.

A pleasure once again to talk with Sonia, and she's definitely done her job this season at making us feel all the time.

Things.

All the things.

All the things. Yes. In fact, in this episode alone, she made us laugh a couple times and definitely cry. So congratulations to Sonia and the entire team. That's it for us this week. Thank you so much for listening or for watching, and we'll see you real soon.

Bye.

This has been the official Gilded Age podcast, written, hosted, and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers.

The podcast is a production of HBO in collaboration with Pod People.

For Pod People, our supervising producer is Rebecca Chassan, associate producer Sam Gabauer, and our video editor is Derek Schultz. Special thanks to Hannah Pedersen and Amy.

Machado for HBO Podcasts. Our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt, and associate producer is Erin Kelly.

Sam.