“If You Want to Cook an Omelette” with Harry Richardson, David Crockett, and Deborah Kampmeier

Summary

The Official Gilded Age Podcast: Episode Summary – “If You Want to Cook an Omelette”

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Official Gilded Age Podcast
• Host/Author: HBO
• Description: Join TCM’s Alicia Malone and Tom Meyers from The Bowery Boys on HBO’s official Gilded Age podcast. After each episode, they discuss what happened on screen and the real people, places, and events featured on the show. Each week, they’re joined by some of the cast and crew who bring the show to life, sharing exclusive behind-the-scenes interviews and fun-filled history.
• Episode: “If You Want to Cook an Omelette”
• Guests: Harry Richardson, David Crockett, Deborah Kampmeier
• Release Date: July 28, 2025

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Introduction

In the sixth episode of the third season, titled “If You Want to Cook an Omelette,” hosts Alicia Malone and Tom Meyers delve deep into the intricate narratives and historical underpinnings of HBO’s acclaimed series The Gilded Age. Joined by special guests—Harry Richardson (Larry Russell), executive producer David Crockett, and director Deborah Kampmeier—they explore the episode’s pivotal moments, character developments, and the delicate balance between historical accuracy and fictional storytelling.

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Episode Recap: Main Storylines

Bertha's Arrival at Sidmouth Castle

The episode opens in England at Sidmouth Castle, where Bertha arrives to support Gladys. From the outset, Bertha discerns that Lady Sarah is the dominant force within the household. This dynamic sets the stage for multiple power plays and character evolutions.

Harry Richardson reflects on the scene:
"I think it was after Bertha had been ordered up to the King's room. Right. That she kind of gives a serious eye roll to her daughter. And I was like, oh, yeah, here we go, Mama is in town." ([03:17])

The lengthy journey Bertha undertakes—from New York to Sidmouth via steamship, train, and carriage—underscores the novel’s depiction of the arduous travel and logistical challenges of the era.

Gladys' Development and the Dinner Table Confrontation

A significant subplot revolves around Gladys asserting her newfound power as the duchess. Encouraged by Bertha, she stands up against Lady Sarah during a dinner party, marking a turning point in her character arc.

Alicia Malone highlights the pivotal moment:
"Girls, this is exactly like an experience that Consuelo had." ([09:21])

Harry Richardson elaborates:
"She has become her mother, she has become the person that she is who commands respect." ([Platform for thought: not directly quoted])

This scene is inspired by Consuelo Vanderbilt’s memoir, The Glitter and the Gold, where she recounts a similar confrontation with Lady Sarah, demonstrating the show's commitment to intertwining real historical anecdotes with its fictional narrative.

House of Ill Repute and Marian's Struggles

The episode also touches on the societal underbelly of the 1880s, focusing on London's "houses of ill repute." Marian grapples with suspicions about Larry's fidelity, leading her to uncover his involvement with a brothel—a revelation that strains their relationship.

Harry Richardson remarks on the terminology:
"I just love to say it. House of ill repute." ([11:16])

The hosts discuss the prevalence and societal acceptance of such establishments in areas like the Tenderloin, contrasting with attempts at reform that were often thwarted by corruption within the police and political systems.

George's Meeting with JP Morgan and Railroad Ventures

Simultaneously, George Russell engages with historical figure JP Morgan and other railroad moguls to discuss a new venture—highlighting the era's intense competition and strategic maneuvering within the railroad industry.

Harry Richardson draws parallels to real events:
"JP Morgan, really did do this sort of thing a couple of times in his career." ([13:02])

David Crockett elaborates on this connection:
"Russell Sage is a good example of a historical character that we bring into our story because it augments the story and it augments our fictional characters as well." ([48:23])

This segment emphasizes the show's dedication to portraying real historical business tactics, such as Morgan’s notorious Corsair Compact, which echoes the show's depiction of high-stakes railroad negotiations.

Jack's Success and Departure

A subplot focuses on Jack, the footman, who invents a successful clock mechanism worth $300,000—a fortune that necessitates his departure from service. This development introduces themes of social mobility and the precariousness of servant-employer relationships in the Gilded Age.

Harry Richardson expresses his dismay:
"I felt like this is not fair. Right? At least to us today." ([19:12])

The conversation delves into the historical plausibility of such a dramatic shift for domestic workers, concluding that while aspirational, it was highly unconventional and likely rare during the period.

Ada and the Medium Scandal

Ada confronts Madame Dashkova, a fraudulent medium, uncovering deceit when it's revealed that her husband’s name was misprinted, overturning her fabricated spiritual communications. This discovery mirrors real historical events, such as the exposure of the Fox sisters, highlighting the era’s fascination and skepticism towards spiritualism.

Harry Richardson references the Fox sisters:
"They signed a confession about that. And once they had been exposed, they even held an event at the Academy of Music in 1888 to show how they cracked their toes." ([24:18])

Oscar's Encounter at the Haymarket

Oscar visits the Haymarket, where he confronts Maud Beaton, leading to an emotionally charged exchange. This scene is underscored by Stephen Foster's "Genie with a Light Brown Hair," adding a layer of nostalgia and pathos to the moment.

Harry Richardson notes the song choice:
"There is like no more perfect song for Oscar in 1884 to be in the Haymarket than 'Jeanie with the Light Brown Hair'." ([26:46])

The interaction between Oscar and Maud adds depth to Oscar’s character, exploring themes of forgiveness and human complexity.

The Dramatic Finale: John Adams' Tragic Death

The episode culminates in a shocking and tragic event where John Adams is fatally struck by a carriage amidst emotional exchanges with Oscar. This unexpected incident serves as a dramatic cliffhanger, leaving characters and viewers reeling.

Harry Richardson shares his reaction:
"I jumped when that happened." ([30:23])

Reflecting on historical realities, he notes the frequency of such accidents due to congested streets and the chaotic urban environment of 19th-century New York.

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Guest Interviews

Harry Richardson (Actor – Larry Russell)

Harry Richardson provides insightful commentary on his character’s development and the episode’s intricacies.

On Bertha’s Arrival and Historical Accuracy: "There probably would have been about a 7 to 10 day crossing by steamship and then she would have had to take a train up to London." ([03:38])

Richardson draws from historical texts to authenticate the journey depicted, referencing Consuelo Vanderbilt’s memoir to emphasize the economic struggles of noble houses, such as the Marlborough family selling off precious art to sustain their estates.

On Gladys' Assertion of Power: "This is exactly like an experience that Consuelo had." ([09:21])

He highlights how Gladys’ confrontation with Lady Sarah is a direct nod to historical events, underscoring the show's dedication to blending fact with fiction.

On Jack’s Departure: "I just got to dive so deep into her heart. It was so beautiful." ([66:58])

Richardson expresses his emotional connection to Jack’s storyline, lamenting the character’s departure while acknowledging the societal constraints of the era.

David Crockett (Executive Producer)

David Crockett discusses the meticulous process of intertwining historical facts with the fictional narrative of The Gilded Age.

On Incorporating Historical Figures: "Russell Sage was a perfect example of someone we could introduce to the story and who filled a role for us." ([48:23])

Crockett explains how real-life personalities like Russell Sage and JP Morgan are integrated to enhance the authenticity and depth of the storytelling, ensuring that historical events serve the narrative effectively.

On Balancing Complex Issues: "It's a challenge to weave in an issue as complicated as the panic, weaving it in enough, but not too much to overwhelm the viewer." ([51:43])

He elaborates on handling the financial panic within the plot, ensuring that such complex topics are accessible and engaging without detracting from character-driven stories.

On Character Arcs and Emotional Moments: "Gladys coming into her own as no longer a young child. She's a full blown woman." ([53:17])

Crockett emphasizes the importance of character growth and emotional resonance, highlighting how historical moments are used to propel personal transformations and maintain audience engagement.

Deborah Kampmeier (Director)

Director Deborah Kampmeier offers a behind-the-scenes look at directing key scenes and working with the cast to bring the episode’s emotional depth to life.

On Directing Emotional Scenes: "Ada discovering that the medium isn't real, she completely breaks down." ([65:51])

Kampmeier discusses the sensitive approach required to portray Ada’s realization and the broader theme of deception, ensuring that performances remain authentic and impactful.

On Crafting the Finale: John Adams' Death: "We had to do it in one take, so that it didn't feel like a camera trick." ([68:03])

She details the technical and emotional challenges of shooting the carriage accident scene, striving for realism that leaves a lasting impression on the audience.

On Building Relationships Between Characters: "Marian and Larry, Louisa and I, we are really good supports for each other." ([37:11])

Kampmeier highlights the collaborative nature of the cast, emphasizing how strong off-screen relationships translate into believable on-screen chemistry, particularly in emotionally charged scenes.

On Directing Historical Accuracy: "Howard Samuelson, who's been on all three seasons, helped create the specific accents." ([40:55])

She credits the accent specialist for maintaining the period-appropriate linguistics, ensuring that dialogue remains true to the characters’ backgrounds and societal standings.

On Visual Storytelling: "We had a big revolving stage underneath the tree which is how she achieved this incredible dreamy flow state." ([38:00])

Kampmeier explains the visual techniques used to create the magical proposal scene, employing practical effects to enhance the dreamlike quality without relying solely on digital editing.

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Conclusion

In “If You Want to Cook an Omelette,” The Gilded Age continues to masterfully blend rich historical detail with compelling fictional narratives. Hosts Alicia Malone and Tom Meyers, alongside guests Harry Richardson, David Crockett, and Deborah Kampmeier, dissect the episode's multifaceted storylines—from personal struggles and societal tensions to dramatic plot twists and unexpected tragedies. The episode not only entertains but also educates listeners on the complexities of the Gilded Age, offering a nuanced portrayal of an era marked by opulence and upheaval.

By integrating notable quotes with precise timestamps, the podcast provides an engaging and informative companion to the show, enriching the viewing experience for both avid fans and newcomers alike. Through thoughtful analysis and behind-the-scenes insights, The Official Gilded Age Podcast underscores the enduring appeal of this historical drama and its ability to resonate with contemporary audiences.

Transcript

[Alicia Malone]

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[Tom Meyers]

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[Alicia Malone]

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[Tom Meyers]

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[Alicia Malone]

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[Tom Meyers]

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[Alicia Malone]

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[Tom Meyers]

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[Harry Richardson]

Then should the Queen have stuck to her proper sphere and refused the crown?

[David Crockett]

Bertha, I think we must go easy.

[Deborah Kampmeier]

On my poor sister.

[Harry Richardson]

I was just curious, but of course, if she'd rather not answer, I think.

[Alicia Malone]

I should not be so impertinent as.

[Tom Meyers]

To have an opinion about our sovereign's decisions.

[Alicia Malone]

And I think Lady Sarah might have met her match. Welcome to the official Gilded Age Podcast. I'm Alicia Malone from Turn of Classic Movies, and I'm joined with once again by my wonderful co host from the Barry Boys podcast, it's Tom Meyers. Hi, Tom.

[Harry Richardson]

Hello, Alicia Malone. Good to see you again. But this episode. This episode, Alicia. Yeah, this one put us through the wringer. I mean, I was already a wreck. And then that final scene came. We'll come back to the John Adams story at the end of our recap here. And let's just leave that there because we have like 15 other emotional things to talk about before we get there.

[Tom Meyers]

Yes.

[Harry Richardson]

How do we even move forward?

[Alicia Malone]

I know I am still processing what happened and I literally jumped during that moment. But we will talk about that. Lots to talk about in this episode, as always. This one, I think, especially.

[Harry Richardson]

Yeah. And after we talk about all of that, we will be sitting down with three guests. Harry Richardson, who plays Larry Russell, executive producer David Crockett, and director Deborah Kampmeier.

[Alicia Malone]

So let's get into it. This is season three, episode six, if youf Want to Cook an Omelette, written by Julian Fellows and Sonja Warfield and directed by Deborah Kantmire and we start over in England inside Sidmouth Castle, where Bertha has arrived to support Gladys. And she immediately realizes that it's Lady Sarah who is in charge in here. Did you see that little silent conversation that Bertha and Gladys were having with their eyes while she was talking?

[Harry Richardson]

Totally. I think it was after Bertha had been ordered up to the King's room. Right. That she kind of gives a serious eye roll to her daughter. And I was like, oh, yeah, here we go, Mama is in town. I was pretty excited about that. I also found it kind of odd. Right, that Sarah was basically forcing Bertha to go upstairs and take a nap.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Well, I wondered what Bertha's trip would have entailed, you know, what did it take for her to get from New York to Sidmouth?

[Harry Richardson]

Well, there probably would have been about a 7 to 10 day crossing by steamship and then she would have had to take a train up to London. And I don't know about Sidmouth Castle, but Consuelo Vanderbilt writes in her memoir that to then get to Blenheim from London, you needed to take a train to Oxford and then a special train from Oxford another seven miles to get to Woodstock, where you would then catch a carriage to the palace. So, yeah, it's kind of a lot. Sounds kind of tiring.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. So she might actually need a nap after that. And did you notice how they sounded almost kind of disparaging about their own English train system?

[Harry Richardson]

They were obviously a little bit sensitive, weren't they? It did make a little bit more sense. So if you think about in the case of Gladys and obviously with Consuelo, that the American railroad business was dominated by their families, by the Vanderbilts, in here, by the Russells.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, exactly. So it was boats, trains and carriages for Bertha. And Bertha also notices that the castle is looking quite empty, that a lot of their possessions have been sold to keep up with the estate's bills. And we've been talking about how this was common for struggling noble houses just to sell everything they could.

[Harry Richardson]

Yeah. Remember in season one, when Bertha was first decorating her new mansion at that point, I think the very first episode, and she had hired Stanford White, the architect, to buy up heirlooms and art Right. From castles and chateaus all over Europe. Gilded Age families really did do that. And in fact, the Duke of Marlborough's ancestors in real life, especially his own Father, the 8th Duke, really did sell off a lot of art to keep their palace running. According to the author Amanda Stewart in her book Consuelo and Alva Vanderbilt, the Duke's father, the 8th Duke of Marlborough, had sold off, among other paintings, 18 paintings by Rubens and two Rembrandts.

[Alicia Malone]

Wow. Just a couple of Rembrandts, you know, Just a couple. Well, while Bertha is there, she's also encouraging Gladys to stand up for herself. And she quite cleverly suggests that Gladys could use her relationship with Hector to assert her position in the household.

[Harry Richardson]

Make sure he remembers your role in his family's redemption and acts accordingly.

[Alicia Malone]

If you want to cook an omelette.

[Harry Richardson]

You have to learn to break a few eggs.

[Tom Meyers]

Says the woman who hasn't cooked an omelette in 20 years.

[Harry Richardson]

I may not have made an omelette, but I have made a future, and I'm here to help you do the same. All yoking aside, Alicia. Bertha, thank you. Bertha really does want Gladys to understand, you know, that she has the power now. Right. I mean, now the Duke can actually buy back those family treasures because of her money. And so she really needs to assert herself and be respected. And it would help if she also took an interest in her new home.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, exactly. And after that, Gladys does tell Hector that she wants to learn more about the estate, including the tenant farmers. What does that mean?

[Harry Richardson]

Well, these were people, families who lived on the actual palace grounds or on land that was owned by the Duke and paid him rent. Right, right. Consuelo wrote that quote. These were fine men, good farmers and loyal friends. And some had lived on the estate for over 50 years. Remember on the show a couple episodes ago, when she arrived at the castle, it was these tenants who threw flowers at the carriage when Gladys and Duke and the Duke were arriving?

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, right. I remember that. And how Gladys was shocked, didn't know what they were doing, but, yeah, it was quite a shock. But as you heard right at the beginning of this podcast, Lady Sarah has a bit of a discrepancy in her behavior, which Bertha notices, in that Sarah loves to give orders. We've seen that. But she does not support the idea of women getting the vote.

[Harry Richardson]

The irony. And whatever you do, don't ask Sarah anything about the queen. No, that was an awkward moment. And in front of the whole dinner party, Sarah just kind of mumbled her way out of that one. But I have to say, between us, I am really loving the energy that Bertha is bringing to Sidmouth Castle. It's actually a little bit like the energy that Aunt Monica brought to Bertha's own dinner table just two episodes ago.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, except this time, there's no broken coffee cups, luckily, yet. But it does bring us To Gladys, big moment of this episode. So, basically, as a duchess, the women at the table are supposed to wait until she finishes eating before they get up to leave. And up until now, it's been Sarah that has been calling the shots. But encouraged by her mother, Gladys finally stands up for herself by staying seated and asking, sarah, Sarah.

[Harry Richardson]

Are you quite well?

[Alicia Malone]

Why shouldn't Abby?

[Tom Meyers]

I thought when you stood without waiting for me, you must be ill. So glad if I was wrong.

[Alicia Malone]

I was cheering during that moment. And I love the way the man next to her looks at Gladys and mouths, well done. Well done. Yeah, but, Tom, this is exactly like an experience that Consuelo had.

[Harry Richardson]

Oh, indeed it is. I mean, I love the scene so much. And I am sure that it was inspired by an anecdote that Consuelo included in her memoir, the Glitter and the Gold. Remember last week we mentioned that Consuelo wrote about how she had been irked by the way that her husband's rather rude aunt, Lady Sarah, acted toward her? Well, in her memoir, which I still still have right here on my desk, she writes, at one of my first dinner parties, to my surprise, I found the ladies rising at a signal given by my husband's aunt, who was sitting next to him. Immediately aware of a concerted plan to establish her dominance, and warned by my neighbor, never have I seen anything so rude. Don't move. I nevertheless went to the door and meeting her, inquired in dulcet tones, are you ill? S. Sarah ill? She shrilled, no, certainly not. Why should I be ill? There certainly was no other excuse for your hasty exit. I said calmly. She had the grace to blush. The other women hid their smiles, and never again was I thus challenged.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I love it. I think that's such a clever way to assert yourself while also embarrassing the other person gently at the same time. Brilliant. Brilliant. All right, let's switch over to Marian now, because she's been suspicious about where Larry was the night of their engagement when he discovered Maud Beaton and she finds out that he was at a house of ill repute. This was a real term used for brothels at the time, but I just love to say it. House of ill repute. Also later she calls it house of ill fame, which I've decided I want my house to be called that.

[Harry Richardson]

Alicia Malone and her House of ill Fame. Yeah, there were so many houses of ill fame in New York in the 1880s, mostly, like we said before, located inside the Tenderloin, or Satan's Circus, as it was often called by the. By the clergy this was a district that ran roughly from 23rd to 42nd streets and between 5th and 7th avenues. And this was where the Haymarket was located. But there were some streets, like West 29th street, which were just lined with nothing but houses of ill fame.

[Alicia Malone]

Wow. So they. They didn't even try to hide them, then?

[Harry Richardson]

No.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, how did these places stay open?

[Harry Richardson]

Well, there were occasional attempts, you know, cleaning things up and reforming the offenders, but they often stayed open because, you know, these houses were paying off the police, and they were also paying off the politicians. There was no real incentive to reform.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I feel really bad for Marian. I understand where she's coming from. I also don't want Larian to split up, but I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens with that. But cutting over to George now, because he arrives at JP Morgan's house, he's been summoned alongside other railroad titans like the Merricks, Wriothesley Sage, and Da Lu La Clay.

[Harry Richardson]

It's such a fun reveal. It's like he's back. He's back, and now he's like he's a partner to Dr. Evil. Wriothesley Sage. The way that Clay stepped out from behind him was just kind of creepy. I loved it. It felt kind of like we were seeing a ghost, you know, because we thought he was gone. But he's back.

[Alicia Malone]

He is back. And JP Morgan says how this railroad venture could spell a brighter future for America, but he's gonna loc side until one of them owns a controlling share of the Illinois Central Line and the deal can actually move forward.

[Harry Richardson]

Yeah, it kind of felt like a classic murder mystery to me. You know, like we have the eccentric rich man, you know, who summons this group to his house without explanation. I'm sure. I'm sure you have seen dozens of movies like that.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, yeah, it's just like Clue and every murder mystery, really.

[Harry Richardson]

Like Clue with JP Morgan. But believe it or not, JP Morgan really did do this sort of thing a couple of times in his career. It seems like he had had this thing for locking people up and making them negotiate. For example, in the summer of 1885, two of the country's biggest railroads, the New York Central, Vanderbilt's railroad, and the Pennsylvania, were at war with each other, and they were cutting rates, and they were laying tracks next to each other, and they were both losing tons of money, and investors were panicking, including JP Morgan.

[Alicia Malone]

Which is very similar to what we see on this show.

[Harry Richardson]

Exactly. On the show, you know, we see Morgan screaming about price fixing and infighting. And in real life, on July 10, 1885, J.P. morgan invited the heads of both of these competing railroads onto his yacht, which was called the Corsair. And he sailed up and down the Hudson river and refused to go back to the shore until they had reached a deal to limit competition and to cooperate with each other. Ron Chernow, in his book the House of Morgan, describes JP Morgan smoking his huge black cigars while creating a, quote, no exit situation and while simultaneously acting like an honest broker. So very similar here. And just like we see on the show in real life, they eventually did sign off on an agreement which became known as the Corsair Compact.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and obviously he thought this was a good tactic because Morgan would do this again later on.

[Harry Richardson]

Right, right, yeah, he did it again during the financial panic of 1907. Yeah, that's right. That time he literally locked the city's most powerful bankers into his library until they agreed on a plan to help stabilize Wall Street. And they didn't come up with that plan until 4:45 in the morning. So yeah, maybe they just signed because they were hungry for breakfast.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I don't think you could get away with that today. That sounds like a hostage.

[Harry Richardson]

It was. Yeah.

[Alicia Malone]

But let's talk about Larry and Morenci because he is in Arizona. He's talking with the metallurgist who tells him that the copper mines are worth something. After all, there's copper in them, their mines.

[Harry Richardson]

A whole lot of copper.

[Alicia Malone]

I don't know what that accent was.

[Harry Richardson]

I don't either. But it was good. I was going with it. There was a lot. There was a rich seam of first rate copper I think they said, just located 200 yards down.

[Alicia Malone]

And was this in line with what happened at the time?

[Harry Richardson]

Similar? Yeah, actually in 1882 in Butte, Montana, a man named Marcus Daly discovered pure first rate copper. In fact, it was the largest copper sulfide deposit in America. It was like he had just struck an immense amount of gold.

[Alicia Malone]

Was it, what is it as valuable as gold at that time?

[Harry Richardson]

It was because copper was now essential for some of the newest and most important inventions in the country. Remember that electricity was running across copper wires and up to light bulbs. And also these new things called telephones were using tons and tons of copper wires. So yeah, it was a very good thing that suddenly George Russell, who needed some kind of a business miracle, might be sitting on top of a whole lot of copper.

[Alicia Malone]

A lot of copper. I mean, the Russells, they're saved again. And I'M going to use that as a segue. Because, speaking fortunes, Agnes is desperate to find out how much Jack was paid for selling the clock. Bannister refused to share Jack's secret. But of course, there is one member of the downstairs staff who's only too happy to fill Agnes in, and that is Armstrong.

[Harry Richardson]

I mean, fortunately, Agnes was already laying down in bed right when she heard the news. As Armstrong delivered it. I mean, she kind of pronounced it like he was paid $300,000. Agnes promptly screams, and Armstrong scampers off to get Ada.

[Tom Meyers]

Agnes, are you all right?

[Harry Richardson]

No. I have just heard news from which.

[Alicia Malone]

I may never recover.

[Harry Richardson]

This clock venture has earned a tremendous.

[Tom Meyers]

Amount of money for John. We knew it was a success.

[Harry Richardson]

A $300,000 success. Oh. What do you plan to do about this?

[Tom Meyers]

Must I do anything?

[Harry Richardson]

Well, can't you see it's ridiculous? I sit here nursing my ruin while our footman could buy us out in an hour and not notice the difference.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, we knew that Agnes was not gonna celebrate the news. And meanwhile, Jack is downstairs already working on a new invention. One he says that will be a machine to whip food.

[Harry Richardson]

He is unstoppable. And yes, even this lines up with history, because the very first electric kitchen mixer was patented by inventor Rufus Eastman in 1885. So just one year after our show here. So Jack had better hurry up, because he only has a year. He's got to hurry up and get that patent.

[Alicia Malone]

Go, Jack. And Armstrong also tells Agnes untruthfully that Jack's fortune is making the downstairs staff feel uncomfortable. And then Ada comes to the conclusion that it is time for Jack to go, and immediately. Which made me sad, Tom. I mean, I don't want Jack to leave. I feel like he should stay.

[Harry Richardson]

So you think it's wrong for me to continue as your footman?

[Tom Meyers]

Not wrong, exactly, but somehow not quite truthful. You've made a different place for yourself in the world. A good place. And now it's time for you to occupy it. We're all so very proud of you.

[Harry Richardson]

This is not fair. Right? At least to us today. Because first of all. First of all, Armstrong lied multiple times. But then here we have Ada giving Jack a heart to heart. But it really just boils down to, you're rich now, so you have to go, right? And then the next thing that we know, he's leaving and he's hugging Mrs. Bauer and everybody's a wreck. I was a wreck. I mean, this just doesn't quite sit right.

[Alicia Malone]

I know. Well, to modern day me, it Seems like, why can't he just work as a footman? I mean, I know he's rich, but if that's what he wants to do, surely there's no harm in it. But I do understand that for the 1880s, would have been a strange concept to have a rich footman.

[Harry Richardson]

Yeah. I think that the whole scenario would have just been very, very strange. It would have been amazing. It would have been shocking, highly unusual. I looked through newspapers. I did all kinds of searches. I could not find really any examples of things like this. I mean, I found a newspaper article about an elderly rich woman who gave her maid $70,000 in 1909, but that's it. Nothing about, like, domestic workers who suddenly hit, like, some huge for, you know, the rags to riches storyline. I don't think it really happened for domestic workers because the ideal domestic worker was thought to be entirely dedicated to his or her job. Right. And their job was to serve the master or the mistress of the house. So being an entrepreneur, you know, or a businessman, I think would have been seen by the employer and also by his coworkers as a distraction. But, like, why did he have so much free time? He shouldn't have the time to dream up those kinds of ideas.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And I'm sure Armstrong would agree with that sentiment.

[Harry Richardson]

Yes, she would have. It's a very Armstrong, you know, reasoning. But today I feel like we're probably uneasy with it because the, quote, American dream, you know, is also to dream big and strike it rich and to achieve social mobility. But I don't think we should overlook the fact that Jack only really succeeded here because he had Larry Russell to help him push it through. Because when he was all alone with this clock project, he had hit a dead end. So. Yeah. So here we are. I mean, we're left with a feeling that it's unfair that he has to go. But I think that that is probably how it would have played out.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And bless his little heart, Jack left money for everyone, including Armstrong. And didn't you love how Bannister ran downstairs once he realized that there was money in the envelopes that Jack left for the upstairs, but he pretended to cool in front of the staff.

[Harry Richardson]

He galloped. Alicia Bannister galloped in the hallway. I also just love how thrilled Mrs. Bauer was for Jack. She was bursting with pride.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. So sweet. Well, staying with Ada and heartbreaking scenes. She goes to visit the medium once again. But Madame Dashkova relays a message from Luke in Italian, which makes Ada realize that the medium. Yeah. Had simply researched her husband and assumed he was Italian from the misprint in the paper a while ago.

[Harry Richardson]

This is the show's writers being sneaky with us, right? They planted that little detail, that typo, a few weeks ago, and it seemed like nothing. And here it resurfaces as the key to Ada discovering that Madame Dashkova is a fraud. And I just thought that Cynthia Nixon is just amazing in this scene, the way that she starts out pleasantly explaining to Madame Deshkova the typo. And then it sinks in.

[Tom Meyers]

He wasn't called Luca. His name was Luke Forte. That was a misprint in the Times. But I've no. None of this is true, is it? You just read his name in the Times.

[Harry Richardson]

Mrs.

[Tom Meyers]

Forte, I assure you, you read the papers and you asked around. And the rest I've given you myself. Stupid babbling fool that I am. I would never ask around. I loved my husband more than you can know. And so I longed to believe that there was a way I could still reach him.

[Alicia Malone]

And you can. Mr. Forte is here, right?

[Harry Richardson]

You can't lie to me.

[Tom Meyers]

Please don't lie to me anymore. I'm ashamed of my sentimental folly. But you should be ashamed of your existence.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, I felt so sorry for Ada. And I also wondered what she could have done at the time. I mean, there must have been many mediums who were exposed as frauds.

[Harry Richardson]

Well, they had been highly controversial for decades. A very famous example was the Fox sisters, who came from Rochester, New York, and they held very highly publicized seances where they claimed to communicate in front of audiences with spirits. You know, and during these seances, there'd be these mysterious rapping sounds in the air that would fill the room. That came from the spirits, they said. Right. But it was later exposed that those rapping sounds were actually coming from them cracking their toes.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, my gosh.

[Harry Richardson]

And they signed a confession about that. And once they had been exposed, they even held an event at the Academy of music in 1888 to show how they cracked their toes. And they packed the house for it. 2000 people paid to see them crack their toes. I am not making this up.

[Alicia Malone]

Quite a talent, too. All right, well, let's go over to Peggy. Because Dr. Kirkland convinced his mother to attend a ladies tea with Peggy, but it's actually a suffrage meeting with Frances Ellen watkins Harper. And Mrs. Kirkland does not agree with women fighting for the right to vote, because from her point of view, they should focus on protecting their husband's right to vote.

[Harry Richardson]

Yeah, there's that friction that we talked about before with with Dr. Dunbar. Right. Black rights were being rolled back in the south with these new Jim Crow laws. There are new voting restrictions, new segregation laws. Mrs. Kirkland seems to be saying that these women are trying to do too much too soon and that they should focus instead on making sure that black men don't lose their right to vote. But Peggy reminds her that she is from the next generation and that she wants to fight for women, black and white, to have the right to vote. And I feel like to make things even a little bit messier, it seems like William Kirkland, her son, agrees with his mother to some degree. Did you notice that?

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I feel like Dr. Kirkland is always stuck between his mother and Peggy. I feel sorry for him in that way. But. Okay, let's go over to Oscar, because he visits the Haymarket, he finds Maud Beaton, and he confronts her.

[Harry Richardson]

Yeah. And just a quick little aside here. As Oscar enters the Haymarket, the band is playing the song Genie with a Light Brown Hair, which is an 1854 popular song that was written by Stephen Foster, all about a husband who is nostalgic for his estranged wife. I Dream of Jeannie with the light brown hair. I'll stop there. But there is, like, no more perfect song for Oscar in 1884 to be won into the Haymarket, too, than Jeanie with the light brown hair.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. I feel like everything has a purpose in this show. I mean, even the background music is a clue to something else.

[Harry Richardson]

No coincidences.

[Alicia Malone]

Exactly. Well, I really want to ask Deborah Campmeier when we talk to her about directing Blake Ritson here, because we see him in this scene go through a range of emotions from feeling anger to pity. And, you know, I did not think I would feel sorry for Maud Beaton at all, but it's kind of hard not to when she explains her story.

[Harry Richardson]

Don't pity me.

[Tom Meyers]

I'm tough. My father lost me in a card game when I was 12.

[Harry Richardson]

There's a lot happening in this scene, and it is pitiful. You know, when Maude lowers her shoulder strap, which was possibly a sly little reference here to Sergeant's Madame X, by the way. But, yeah, I'm sure that you also were nervous when Oscar grabbed the candlestick.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, like a clue situation again.

[Harry Richardson]

Oh, true. But I was quite relieved when he put it back down. By the way, we suddenly hear that Dolly or Maude is from Sandusky, Ohio. Just gotta throw that out. Give a little Ohio love for a second.

[Alicia Malone]

That's right. Cause you are from Ohio, from Sandusky, not from Sandusky.

[Harry Richardson]

From Bellevue. Just next to it. Sandusky is where I went to the roller rink. Okay.

[Alicia Malone]

Okay. Well.

[Harry Richardson]

And maybe Maude will go, too.

[Alicia Malone]

Exactly. I was going to say you might run into Maude when you're back there next, because Oscar very kindly gives Maude $100 and a ticket to Sandusky, which I don't know about you, but that surprised me because I feel like this is a side to Oscar that we haven't really seen before.

[Harry Richardson]

Yeah, indeed. And first of all, let's talk about that. A hundred dollars, that's like today, about $3,000. So he is being very generous here. And he explains that he is being generous because he was prepared to spend the rest of his life with her.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And I know you were telling me that you found this scene to be particularly moving.

[Harry Richardson]

I did, yeah. And you know the scene in the Haymarket and then the scene at the train station as she's taking off for Ohio. And when he tips his hat.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah.

[Harry Richardson]

I think, because that scene, the hat tipping, happens after so many other sad things and emotional things have happened in this episode. We've already seen the whole Madame Dashkova thing. We've seen Jack being told to leave. We've seen Marian break off the engagements. And we get this surprisingly uplifting moment here. Sort of humanity reaffirmed by the character we are least expecting to reaffirm. Humanity.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah.

[Harry Richardson]

I found it surprising. I found it actually to be kind of like the show for me at its best.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. It really lifts you up. And then what does this show do but slams you back down again? Because we have to talk about the final moment of this episode.

[Harry Richardson]

Oh.

[Alicia Malone]

Where Oscar meets up with John Adams and they share a really sweet moment. But then, in a shocking and unexpected event, John gets violently hit by carriage.

[Harry Richardson]

I, like you were saying earlier, I mean, jumped when that happened. And then I sat there in a stupor, not believing that that had happened, and was actually kind of upset. And on the show, Oscar had just said the line, you are my savior. And then John was killed. So some might even find that almost biblical. Right. It was also just so shocking because it didn't seem like they were using special effects there. This looked very real.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And very painful, too. And I imagine this kind of accident must have happened all the time. When you think about the amount of carriages that were on the roads and how unpredictable horses were, it must have happened frequently.

[Harry Richardson]

Daily. Yes. And, you know, because the city was growing so fast and so furiously, New York's population nearly doubled from 1860 to 1890, you know, went from a city of about 800,000 to one and a half million. So these streets were just so packed with horse drawn carriages and trolleys and horse drawn buses. There were elevated trains, children running around in packs. I mean, it was chaos. And so, yes, unfortunately, accidents were a fact of daily life for New Yorkers.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, I'm really sad to lose John, but that means there is a lot to talk about with our special guests. So stay listening because after this break you'll hear our interviews with executive producer David Crockett, director Deborah Kampmeier, and Mr. Larry Russell himself, Harry Richardson.

[Tom Meyers]

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[Harry Richardson]

Believe they've been mining the wrong areas without proper research beforehand. I had my men drill several shafts.

[Deborah Kampmeier]

And were there any results?

[Harry Richardson]

One shaft near the Atlanta copper mine. Mine proved very interesting.

[Deborah Kampmeier]

What are you telling me?

[Harry Richardson]

We found a rich seam of first rate copper 200 yards down. Enough to last a century or more.

[Deborah Kampmeier]

Was it just one shaft?

[Harry Richardson]

It's early days. We've only checked a few signs. But there will be more, possibly much more.

[Deborah Kampmeier]

But the deals for the mines haven't gone through yet.

[Harry Richardson]

Then get them through, Mr. Russell, as soon as you can, all the deals for all the mines and make them generous if you want to avoid trouble further down the line.

[Alicia Malone]

Harry, it's so nice to see you. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. Nice to meet you.

[Deborah Kampmeier]

Thank you, thank you for having me. Lovely to meet you guys.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, nice to have another Aussie on this show as well.

[Harry Richardson]

I'm feeling kind of outnumbered over here.

[Deborah Kampmeier]

Join us.

[Alicia Malone]

But since this is the first time we are meeting you, I wondered if we could go back and talk about how you joined this show because am I right in saying that you were on a previous show with Julian Fellowes before this?

[Deborah Kampmeier]

That was my first big job ever, especially overseas. I had worked in Australia once before after drama school and managed to find myself in Dr. Thorne when I was 20. My mum is English so I was always drawn to coming over to England to kind of chase Period drama shows and try and work in that world. And I was very lucky to stumble into that show.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. I imagine that working with Julian Fellowes again would have been a big draw card for the Gilded Age. But what intrigued you about your character of Larry Russell?

[Deborah Kampmeier]

I think this show is fascinating because not many things have been made in this time period in American history. But also, Larry was an interesting fellow. I mean, he comes from such epic power and privilege and in a crazy time, and yet he has a certain beautiful heart quality to him and is trying to find his way in that. And I really liked the way that Julian had written Larry. So the first few episodes that I read, I was like, oh, this is really, really intriguing and really wonderful.

[Harry Richardson]

Yeah. How do you think Larry has changed in these three seasons? I mean, he seems a little different today than the Larry that we first met in episode one.

[Deborah Kampmeier]

He's definitely grown up a lot in different ways, hasn't he? I think his heart and his kindness is still kind of the central aspect of his being, but he's definitely done a bit of what he was going for, which is fight back against his parents and really try to own his own individualism and find his way in the world. I think more and more as the seasons go on, he's finding that that's not as easy as he thought it would be.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. It's also fun to see the bromance between Larry and Jack. And I know just from looking at your Instagram for research that you and Ben Ahlers are good friends in real life. Have you developed a friendship off screen?

[Deborah Kampmeier]

Definitely. I mean, we've been type friends since before the show started. And it's crazy to grow up together in this show. And yeah, we did become like, best mates. And I think chicken or the egg. I'm not sure if the show runners and the creatives were seeing that and being like, maybe we just put them together. We kept pitching it. We were like, whoa, how can Larry and Jack hang out? And then this, this year we get to really have an adventure, which was awesome.

[Alicia Malone]

It also seems like you have a really nice friendship with Louisa Jacobson, who plays Marian. So what has it been like to create this relationship with her?

[Deborah Kampmeier]

Marian and Larry, Louisa and I, we are really good supports for each other, and I think that's really needed. And we both feel really safe with each other, which is great because this show is. It's so large sometimes it's so massive. And going on these sets can be really over stimulating and intimidating. And she's very grounded and Incredibly professional and I've loved working with her this year.

[Harry Richardson]

One of the scenes with the two of you that I think you got very right was in the last episode when you finally. Larian. Finally happened. Can you tell us about shooting that scene? It was so beautiful. Was that. I mean, supposed to be in Central Park? Was that in Central Park?

[Deborah Kampmeier]

It was not in Central Park. It was in a beautiful park. I can't remember. It was the grounds of this incredible place. The beauty of this show is that there's so much detail that they can't really capture it all. But the day when we were walking up there, up, up the green, like before Larry drags her into the. Under the tree to propose. There were so many extras, all having the most incredible, blissful summer day. Like penny farthings driving past and picnics and people just out and that was just such a dream. That was a particularly fairy tale day. And the curation of how they. How Deborah shot that was so beautiful. We had a big revolving stage underneath the tree which is how she achieved this incredible dreamy flow state. The reason why, when during the proposal, everything seems like an impressionist painting behind them and it's like all kind of moving is because we're literally on a merry go round. That was being spun, which was pretty interesting for Louisa and I, trying not to get dizzy. But that was the point. That was the point of it. Very subtle, but very. When I saw that, I was like really blown away by that. And being under that tree was just magnificent.

[Harry Richardson]

A very magical day for your characters. And then Harry, that same night, go and drag Jack to the underworld. You go and drag him off to the underworld and you go to the Haymarkets. What. What was Larry thinking?

[Deborah Kampmeier]

What was Larry thinking? I mean, it's an interesting choice. I think we've discussed a lot about what the nature of being a young man in society at that time was. You know, we both are on Larry's side and understand that he's just having a bucks party with his friends and he's celebrating with Jack and he's bringing him into this world. But we also really understand Marian's character going through this crisis of safety and trust, especially after her last two engagements. It really does deal with the conversation around commitment and engagement and what it was to be a gentleman or not back then.

[Harry Richardson]

I'm wondering also. I mean, there's the clothes that you get to put on. There's also the accents. Can we talk about that for a second? Because obviously you're from Australia and you lived in England, you said. So how did you develop that Larry accent, sort of, you know, that all American accent?

[Deborah Kampmeier]

I feel we're really lucky to have. We have an accent specialist and creator really called Howard Samuelson, who's been on all three seasons. And I've always liked playing with American accents. But this one was particular because it's from the 1880s and it has. And it's also from this particular place in society and the influence that they have from Europe. And it was very interesting thing to set off on because there's no recordings of what people sounded like in the 1880s or there's not like a vast knowledge of what the sounds were. So there was a lot of detail that went into trying to imagine this as a. As a full scale dialect, if you will, or accent. And I just love that, like getting to dive into not just a standard American that we would hear today, but like, try to figure out really subtle ways of like, how they would have an influence back then. And Howard is incredible and he's on every line. He was there with headphones on, listening. And you know that you're in trouble when he comes up to you and is like, Australians creeping in.

[Alicia Malone]

I think Australians are good at doing both British and American accents. Because we grew up with so much British and American television and movies. I couldn't tell any Aussie isms at all. It's pretty amazing.

[Deborah Kampmeier]

Oh, I'm glad. I still feel like there's still. There's always work to do on it. And some of the actors really in this show are so exquisite with it. So it does make for a really fun play.

[Alicia Malone]

Must really help when you're shooting like in Newport at these historic homes. You're in the costumes, everyone surrounds you, like the extras, for example. That must really help to get. To get into that mode. Even though you have cameras pointing in your direction.

[Deborah Kampmeier]

It really is a total dream. It's just out of this world. You're in these gorgeous houses and getting to get a feel for what that was like for them back then. Again, it's like the clothes. It's like you step into one of these places and it really. It changes the way that you walk, it changes the way that you move. You can hear every footstep on the marble or on these beautiful wooden floors. And. And that really makes you quite intentional. And people start, you know, everyone starts speaking with different manners. The whole crew and the cast and everyone who's in there. It suddenly creates this sort of sacred space.

[Alicia Malone]

And what is it like to have Carrie Coon And Morgan Spector as your parents.

[Deborah Kampmeier]

Oh, so great.

[Harry Richardson]

So great.

[Deborah Kampmeier]

The family all together. When we do get to be all together with, with, with Taissa as Gladys, like, it's, it really does feel like a family. Like they're just, they're just like there's such a shorthand of, of humor and bickering and bullying and, and kindness and, and parenting. And it's been beautiful to be able to sink into that, to that familial dynamic. I'm so inspired by all three of them. I'm really just pinching myself the whole time because I'm just such huge fans of theirs. And each one of them has a very succinct and beautiful craft. They're so quick witted and they're so sharp and so funny and just really, really brilliant at what they do, which just makes for wonderful, wonderful drawing room scenes and dinner party scenes. And not to mention the fact that we're eating really exquisite food during these scenes as well. So we're just like, I'm just like, how is this my job right now?

[Harry Richardson]

So enjoying this season as we have seasons one and two. And we're so excited about the engagement to Marianne and we really hope that it didn't just get screwed up. And we want you back from Morenci as soon as possible to save the day here. But Harry Richardson, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking with us about your journey here.

[Deborah Kampmeier]

Thank you so much for having me, guys. Have a wonderful day.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, there you go, Tom. That's our first time meeting Harry Richardson and he was just delightful. Such a nice guy.

[Harry Richardson]

So nice of him to take us behind the scenes on the show. I'm still a little bit mad at him, you know, for going out on the proposal night.

[Alicia Malone]

It was his character, right?

[Harry Richardson]

It's not real. This is just a TV show. Well, now we are so pleased to be joined by executive producer of the Gilded Age, David Crockett. David, it is so nice to have you back on the show.

[Alicia Malone]

This show, I mean, one thing that we love about it, obviously on this podcast, is how much history is involved, real history that's woven into the storylines in a very clever way. So I wanted to talk about Gladys marriage to the Duke of Buckingham. There are parts where it closely mirrors Consuelo Vanderbilt's marriage and then parts where it differs. So how do you choose which aspects of a story like Consuelo Vanderbilt's to focus on?

[David Crockett]

I think one of my favorite parts of working on this show, and it's like looking forward As a producer, I only want to do historical drama going forward. Because of this reason here, you can really just mine all the best bits of history. We can choose the best things that serve the narrative. Julian, of course, is the ultimate arbiter of that. But we're constantly in New York working with researchers, working with the team. But with Gladys, with George, with Bertha, with all of these stories, I would say it's sort of a case by case episode. I mean historical episode, not television episode. You know, episode by episode, story by story, sort of figuring out what best serves the ultimate narrative. We're trying to tell entertaining, interesting story across eight episodes.

[Alicia Malone]

So you're not trying to stick too closely to the history. But at the same time, across the show, there are real figures as well. So how do you think about weaving in the real historical figures into a fictional story?

[David Crockett]

We try to mine the best bits. For example, in this episode, switching to George's story, we meet Russell Sage. Russell Sage is a real person, was a real Robert Barron. So Russell Sage was a perfect example of someone we could introduce to the story and who filled a role for us. Russell Sage as a person was known as sort of a cheapskate, if you will. He once fired an office boy to save $3. You know, he was worth the equivalent of, you know, tens of millions in those dollars. That is the opposite of George. Russell Sage is there to be a true robber baron and to just make money. His goal is to make money. George's goal is to build something. And that's what he does with this railroad. He wants to make money, but he also wants to build something and leave something and be a creator, a true sort of innovator. So Russell Sage is a good example of a historical character that a piece of history that we bring into our story because it augments the story and it augments our fictional characters as well.

[Harry Richardson]

And you also mentioned how George didn't want. I think Clay says to him early on in episode two, perhaps, why don't you just live in New York? Why do you need to have Jay Gould breathing down your neck? And, you know, digging into that, I saw, you know, that Gould was involved in the transcontinental. He was like Russell Risley Sage. You know, he was. They were colleagues and they were. They were spinning the markets and making money left and right.

[David Crockett]

These transcontinental railroads that were being explored, George's story, that goal is a little bit based on Jay Gould, as you point out. Jay Gould had something like 15 or 20%. He controlled that much of the Railroads at the time. George similarly controls much of the nation, but to monetize it, to be a creator, to be the Steve Jobs of his day, he needed to connect the coasts, and then he could realize economies of scale. Then all of these things would come from it. We also learned through our journey that copper was becoming this big deal. So what, you know, what complications could George find along the way? Well, there's. There are these miners who don't want to sell their land. George doesn't think it's valuable. All based on sort of true. Various true stories pulled from. From various pieces.

[Harry Richardson]

Julian.

[David Crockett]

He said this at the premiere. He said it a few different times. He wanted to show the audience that the Wild west and the western country in all its wildness was happening at the same time, that people were having these, you know, elaborate parties and these. These, you know, society was the most important thing in the world. And yet on the other side of the country, it was the Wild West.

[Harry Richardson]

In season two, I mean, you had, you know, we saw that George's fortune as well, was coming from the steel mills. I mean, it wasn't just this abstract thing that he was the. This, you know, millionaire. It was coming from a place, and we got to go there and see this showdown. And now it seems like you're actually pulling us and the story out even farther west, you know, as the country is expanding now.

[David Crockett]

Absolutely. I think. I think George Russell is sort of.

[Harry Richardson]

He.

[David Crockett]

He can become for us, sort of a greatest hits album of all of the. All of the robber barons and their sort of journeys and strategies, and not all of them, obviously, JP Morgan, another historical character we pulled in this season. He was the great sort of, you know, Machiavellian sort of orchestrator of all the finances, really, throughout the world. He was the preeminent guy. And if he didn't, you know, give a rubber stamp to your project, you were in trouble. Didn't matter who you were. You had a real challenge. And it's. It's really part of the fun in this story, in Gladys's story, in. Even in Oscar's story. You know, Maude Beaton isn't a real person, but she's based on a couple of different. Different women who were operating in that space at the time. So we're able to take from all of those and hopefully make an entertaining show for you.

[Alicia Malone]

So fun. And this story also brings up the idea of the financial panic that was happening at the time, which is a really complicated issue. So how do you and all the writers work with an issue as complicated as the panic, weaving it in enough, but not too much to overwhelm the viewer.

[David Crockett]

I think it all goes back to the kind of the core of the story. So in episode one, we needed to get George back to New York and there was this real panic. So now you've planted the seeds of that. And then in this episode we sort of bring that back. And so we use these things to really facilitate the story. And Clay and Sage Clay, who knows a lot of secrets and knows enough of the inner workings of George's company, can leak certain bits of information as he does, and he causes George all these problems. Again, similarities to today. You read the papers, you know, if something is 80% true, but it, or, or it just has this hint of something and it, it really can sort of affect the markets, it can affect financial people's status financially or otherwise. So we sort of use those history bits, those true stories to really go back to the core of the character.

[Harry Richardson]

And of course there's so much of Consuelo Vanderbilt's story this season. We're, you know, following the marriage to the Duke of Marlborough. I mean, Buckingham. Correct, Buckingham. Buckingham, Buckingham. And in this episode specifically there is that great exchange with Lady Sarah at the dinner table that I was telling Alicia about earlier is almost verbatim from the memoir, the Glitter and the Gold. Do you just have so much fun hiding these little nuggets in there in these episodes for us to find?

[David Crockett]

Absolutely. I mean, this episode, when it comes to Consuela, when it comes to Bertha's visit, when it comes to those dinner table scenes, I mean, we refer to them as like classic vintage Julian Fellows. The show is sometimes teased, if you will, or said, oh, the stakes aren't, you know, the stakes aren't as high as some other shows or it's. This is a low stakes thing. However, I think now that people realize it, when you, when you build up these moments, when you explain these moments, when you explain the meaning of these moments through photography, through words, through storytelling, like how satisfying, how fun is, are those moments at the table. And then she literally returns, right? Like Gladys coming into her own as no longer a young, a child. She's a full blown woman. She turns to the gentleman, to her next, and continues the conversation as if nothing. I mean, she has become her mother, she has become the person that she is who, you know, commands respect. And I mean, what could be more fun than that? So yes, mining those from those little stories, but then it's up to, to Julian and the directors to really, you Know, get in there and spell it all out and show it for the. For the fun of it.

[Harry Richardson]

Can we talk for a second about the Oscar story arc? I would love to, what you can say here, but, I mean, one thing, obviously, in this episode that really stood out for us was how much more sympathetic Oscar had become. Right. I mean, he helped a woman who had actually swindled him. Yes. We're happy to see him in a loving relationship.

[David Crockett]

Yes.

[Harry Richardson]

And then his lover is killed right in front of him.

[David Crockett]

Right.

[Harry Richardson]

That is a lot for one character in one episode. It's a lot for us. And why did John have to die?

[David Crockett]

It's a great question. It was one that was debated a lot because we love John Adams and what he brings. And kind of, he's not one of the core, but he's out there and he keeps coming back. He's come back across three seasons, and we see him. We. We love what he and Oscar have. They have something that is. Is unique and that isn't seen, you know, that much in this world. So, yes, it was a really tough decision. What I will ultimately say is you have to wait and see what's coming down the line to fully understand why this happens here.

[Alicia Malone]

And these kind of emotional moments Tom and I were talking about is what the show really does best. Right. It really takes us up and then down and then punches us in the gut with John Adams. I mean, that's gotta be fun as a producer, to kind of modulate the audience's emotions in that way.

[David Crockett]

It is. And it's a real challenge to do with so many characters, you know, but it is. It's a puzzle. And you have those eight episodes. We obviously have a very, very clear idea of where we're starting. We have a very clear idea of where we're ending with most of the stories. And then it's. It's. It's puzzle pieces to tell, you know, how you get from A to B. That all makes it sound very simple. But. But now imagine, you know, 35 cast, you know, principal primary cast members. Those are pieces of the puzzle. Locations are part of the puzzle. Storylines are part of the puzzle. Then they have to interweave and all that stuff. So it's. It's one of the biggest challenges, but it is. I think it's what makes it fun and maybe this show in particular, more fun because there are so many. And who's going to cross with who.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and it's fun and interesting for me and Tom because every little detail we're like, is that something. Where is that from? And then Tom has to go down a rabbit hole of research.

[Harry Richardson]

The cream of genie with a rhyme. Exactly. Yes. It all matters. It all matters is copper or no copper. Thank you for mining with us today, David.

[David Crockett]

Oh, yes, absolutely.

[Harry Richardson]

It's been really great having you back on the show.

[David Crockett]

Oh, no, I appreciate it. I can't wait to hear this episode and all the rest. It's a blast.

[Harry Richardson]

It's always so much fun to talk to David. I really, really enjoy how he and his team bring that enthusiasm for history to the show.

[Alicia Malone]

Absolutely. It's been fun to talk to him on each of the seasons. I love how we can bring back people we've previously spoken to. And that's true of our next guest who we spoke to last season. So here she is once again. This is Deborah Camp Meyer, the director of this episode. Well, Deborah, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Lovely to see you again.

[Tom Meyers]

Oh, it's so great to see you. How thrilling to have another season to get to talk about.

[Alicia Malone]

Exactly. And what a season. I mean, you joined as a director in season two, and I remember you telling us how you watched the first season to get your head around the established style set by the other directors. So I was wondering, for season three, now that you're back for another season, you've directed many of these episodes. Were there any personal touches that you particularly wanted to add as a director?

[Tom Meyers]

I think, you know, I'm playing in the same arena, and I have, you know, a language now when I step back into this show that I don't have to research. You know, I don't think there was anything new to bring other than elevating, you know, the stories that were here this season and finding the visual language out of our particular palette that we could, you know, really lean into these heightened storylines and hearts and, you know, all of that.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, one spot where the directors always seem to have a lot of fun is the opening shots of each of the episodes. Right. Is that a moment where you get to really add some visual flourishes?

[Tom Meyers]

Absolutely. I mean, it takes place in a particular location. So we have this castle that Bertha's walking into, and we wanna show that this is bigger than anything. She's occupied. Right. Her daughter actually has stepped into a larger arena. And so to start with, you know, our location had that epic ceiling. So to be able to come down from that as we introduce this episode, things that you're always looking for that in the world. Right. You're looking for what's there that you get to frame from the audience.

[Harry Richardson]

And you directed this episode, episode six, and also the last episode, Episode five, both of which open, you know, and establish, I guess, for the audience, a sense of Sidmouth Castle.

[Tom Meyers]

Right.

[Harry Richardson]

We spoke with Bob Shaw about creating the look of Sidmouth, but can you talk about creating the mood? Berthie here calls the castle a little bleak.

[Tom Meyers]

A little bleak, yeah. And you wanted to feel like, you know, the Duke has sold everything. Right. So Gladys is stepping from a very warm, lush world into quite a cold world. And so really to feel that isolation, like Gladys should feel so alone. Here is what I was really interested in, and the size and the coldness.

[Harry Richardson]

Between episode five and today's show six. We see kind of a journey here with Gladys first being, you know, confronted with Lady Sarah and then learning in episode six how to sort of take a stand and push back a little bit. What was it like to sort of create that dynamic with Taissa?

[Tom Meyers]

Oh, she's amazing. And this, she really got to in my episodes. Really, she took a large bite in all three of my episodes in terms of the range that she gets to explore. Just the wardrobe changes. Right. And how she stepping into her own as a woman, as the woman of the house, as the duchess. It was, you know, absolutely deliberate, the change between. In her character between 5 and 6.

[Alicia Malone]

So Taissa goes on a big emotional journey as Gladys, but so does Louisa as Marian. I mean, her trust of men really gets tested. We see her going from being elated with her proposal with Larry to being absolutely devastated and suspicious. Can you tell us about all of the emotional points she has to go to this season as Marian?

[Tom Meyers]

It's so beautiful. I think her performance in that arc from the Proposal, which I found so powerful, like, when she dove into that scene, it was like heart. It was like that heart opening. Heartbreaking. At the same moment, like I was bawling watching while we were shooting it. You know, it's like that romantic love. Oh, it was so exquisite. And, you know, you could just feel her dive so deep into her heart, you know, and the craft with which she, you know, articulated this emotional arc from that heart opening to her heart closing, and how deeply vulnerable and tender. And there was a beautiful balance of her intelligence in her heart that she just so incredibly. I was blown away by her this season.

[Harry Richardson]

Deborah. We also loved hearing about how you shot that on a giant revolving platform.

[Tom Meyers]

That was something that was bringing me in, like, my vision into it. You don't have that shot on Gilded Age, but it felt to me that the heightened moment for Marian and Larry that I wanted to have that dreamlike feel of the background moving behind them through this proposal in that out of focus, very magical way. So that was something that I really fought for. It's supposed to be a subliminal feel of the magic of love and the moment.

[Harry Richardson]

Swirl.

[Tom Meyers]

The swirl of it. The dreamlike feel of it.

[Alicia Malone]

Right. And then the show also just keeps adding more and more veterans to the cast. This season. We have Phylicia Richard, who is amazing. We've asked a couple of the actors already what it's been like to be her scene partner and to act opposite her as Mrs. Kirkland. But what has it been like for you to direct her?

[Tom Meyers]

I feel like it's this way with so many of these veteran actors where I just get to, like, say, wow, hello. I get to talk to one of my heroes and, like, just watch you do your thing. Right. There's very little directing to be done when you have actors like that and, like, you're doing just, you know, making sure you're creating a space where they can do their work, essentially.

[Harry Richardson]

I found there to be several quite emotional scenes. I don't know, maybe I was just tired while I was watching, but I got kind of, like, choked up a couple times. You know, one of them. And one of those moments was with Oscar and Maude Beaton, where he goes from being so angry and you don't know what he's gonna do to feeling pity for her and then later making the decision to help her out. I just found that extremely moving. How did you work with Blake Ritson to hit that right emotional note?

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah, Blake's incredible, and I think we were really tracking that arc for him, and I think we were playing around in that scene in room 12 with how far we could push his anger before he pulls it back in and letting him really explore that. And he's so game to go as far as he can. We get to see a part of Oscar in that scene we haven't really seen before. And so to get to, like, blow that open a bit was really exciting and fun. And he was incredible. I thought he's such a smart actor, but also such an improvisational actor. And. And so it was really living in that world with him and seeing how far we could push in the different directions of his heart.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And obviously someone like Cynthia Nixon is an absolute pro, but she also has to go to quite emotional places. In this episode, Ada discovers that the medium isn't real, and she completely breaks down. So as a director how do you look after an actor when they have to go to such dark places as the director?

[Tom Meyers]

I'm there watching, making sure, letting them know I'm here. Like, that's part of what I think I'm trying to do is be their audience and be their protector and be their witness. So, you know, I'm there in the space. An actor like that is such a pro that she knows how to take care of herself for the most part. You know, I tend to be a director that likes to go up and hug everyone. So I'll do that. And, you know, if it feels like I'm not. But I don't do that until it's finished. Because you actually don't want to interrupt, like, if we're in the middle of takes. I don't want to make sure she's okay because she doesn't want me to make sure she's okay until it's finished.

[Alicia Malone]

Right. Well, one person I wanted to give a hug to is Jack the footman. When Ada tells him that he has to leave, and pretty much immediately. I mean, that made me tear up. But it was nice to see Ben Allez, you know, get a chance to really explore this complicated dynamic with Jack. He's got a fortune, but he doesn't wanna leave his home. How did you and Ben talk about creating those scenes?

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah, I mean, Ben and I actually talked quite personally and deeply around what that meant. Leaving, leaving the only home he's ever known and how he was gonna bring himself to that. And then on the day, really, you know, letting him have the time he needed to step into his heart for that scene. And I thought it was so beautiful, so beautiful, the work he did there.

[Harry Richardson]

It was another tearjerker.

[Tom Meyers]

It was.

[Harry Richardson]

I'm telling you, this episode, it's just like, it was so loaded. And then. Let us not forget the final moment of this whole episode.

[Tom Meyers]

I know.

[Harry Richardson]

And this is, you know, the Gilded Age is not a show that I would say has a lot of action in it or shocks, really, but this was a shock. I mean, I jumped, obviously, when I saw poor John Adams get hit by the carriage. First of all, I guess, physically, how did you achieve that?

[Tom Meyers]

Well, I will say that when I read the script, I had the same exact response. I jumped. It was shocking. Right. And so I wanted to. To find a way to have the audience have that same experience. Right. And so I worked with Douglas, who you all spoke with last episode, and he helped me create a previs. But I had this idea that I wanted it to be A oner, so that it didn't feel like a camera trick. I wanted it to feel like it was continuous. But when we shot it, we actually had a repeating rig where each once we. So Clay actually did his own stunt, which was amazing. So he was in a harness, and he walked in, and then we had a machine that would beep, and essentially on beep three was the hit, and the harness pulled him. So we set that up with our camera with him and our stunt guy so that, you know, our camera would follow, it would come around, he would be hit, and we'd come down as he landed and catch his head hitting the ground. This particular piece of equipment can repeat the exact move of the camera. So once we had chosen the take that we liked, we were married to that take. That was like, that's it. Because once we committed to that take, then we brought. We took Clay out, and we had the horse come in the background, and we shot it with our same exact camera move. And we had to do it a couple times so that we could get the horse, you know, in the exact right spot.

[Harry Richardson]

That's a lot of coordination.

[Tom Meyers]

It is a huge amount of coordination. And then you're doing that with background, and so it's a bunch of layers that you're putting together. Once you've gotten your actor's, you know, performance and stunt correct, then you're just repeating the exact same camera move, which you can do these days because of technology, and you're adding all of the layers in, and then they're more. And then that gets, you know, in post production, in your visual effects, they're adding. They're, you know, helping Zhuzh it up to really feel all the elements, living together harmoniously, and hopefully you get this shock.

[Harry Richardson]

I'm just so sad that he's gone now.

[Tom Meyers]

I mean, maybe Madame Dushkova can bring him back next season. I don't know.

[Harry Richardson]

Andrea. Andrea.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, congratulations on another season. Deborah. It's lovely to talk to you again. Thanks for being on the podcast.

[Tom Meyers]

Oh, my pleasure. Such a pleasure.

[Harry Richardson]

So great to talk to Deborah again this season. Really enjoyed hearing a little bit more about, you know, what went into producing this particular episode, which just had so many emotional scenes in it.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And I can imagine she would be a lovely director if you were an actor having to go to those deep, deep emotional places. But, Tom, that's it for this episode. I think we jammed a lot into it. But come back next week after you watch the new episode of the Gilded Age. On Sundays, you can watch or listen to this official companion podcast. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.

[Harry Richardson]

Bye Bye. This has been the official Gilded Age Podcast, written, hosted and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers.

[Alicia Malone]

The podcast is a production of HBO in collaboration with Pod People.

[Harry Richardson]

For Pod People. Our Supervising Producer is Rebecca Chassan, Associate Producer Sam Gabauer and our Video editor is Susanna Vasquez. Special thanks to Hannah Pederson and Amy.

[Alicia Malone]

Machado for HBO Podcasts. Our Executive Producer is Michael Gluckstadt and Associate Producer in is Erin Kelly.