“Love Is Never Easy” with Denée Benton and Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar

Summary

The Official Gilded Age Podcast: Episode Summary - “Love is Never Easy”

Introduction

In the July 7, 2025 release of The Official Gilded Age Podcast by HBO, hosts Alicia Malone from Channer Classic Movies and Tom Myers from The Bowery Boys delve into season three, episode three titled “Love is Never Easy.” This episode features insightful discussions with Denée Benton, who portrays Peggy Scott, and Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar, the show’s co-executive producer and historical consultant. The hosts unpack the intricate narratives of the show, drawing parallels to real historical events and exploring the complex dynamics within the characters.

Episode Overview: Plot Points

“Love is Never Easy” centers around George Russell’s tumultuous negotiations with the Duke of Buckingham and his lawyer regarding George’s potential engagement to Gladys. The initial negotiations prove contentious, highlighting George’s business-oriented approach to marriage. As George attempts to match the Duke's offer, he stipulates that a portion must be paid directly to Gladys, leaving the Duke “completely aghast” ([04:07] Tom Myers).

Parallel to this, Bertha Russell’s determination to orchestrate a marriage between Gladys and the Duke strains her relationship with George, creating significant tension within the Russell household. Additionally, the episode explores Agnes’s feelings of exclusion from high society and Ada's push for a sobriety pledge among the staff, reflecting the personal struggles and societal pressures faced by the characters.

Historical Context: Consuelo Vanderbilt

The episode draws a compelling parallel to the real-life story of Consuelo Vanderbilt, whose forced engagement to the 9th Duke of Marlborough was orchestrated by her mother, Alva Vanderbilt. This historical backdrop illuminates the pressures Consuelo faced as an 18-year-old amidst societal expectations. Hosts Malone and Myers discuss Consuelo's negotiations for financial arrangements, echoing George Russell's dealings in the show ([05:50] Tom Myers).

Amanda Mackenzie Stewart's book, Consuelo and Alva: The Story of a Mother and Daughter in the Gilded Age, is referenced to highlight how societal and familial pressures similarly influence the characters in The Gilded Age.

Character Analysis

1. Bertha Russell: Portrayed as a strong-willed matriarch, Bertha's manipulative efforts to secure Gladys’s marriage to the Duke create a wedge between her and George. Her calculated seduction attempt on George and subsequent actions demonstrate her relentless pursuit of power and societal standing ([10:30] Tom Myers).

2. Agnes Russell: Agnes grapples with her diminishing status in high society, feeling excluded despite not facing a scandal like Aurora. Her poignant line, “Perhaps I will find my place in Newport with Aurora and I'll spend the rest of my days with society's castoffs and women of ill repute, at least they'll have wine” ([17:27] Alicia Malone), encapsulates her sense of loss and resilience.

3. Peggy Scott: Denée Benton’s Peggy undergoes significant character development, evolving from a background figure to a central protagonist finding love and personal fulfillment. Her interactions with Dr. William Kirkland introduce themes of black elite society and colorism, showcasing her growth and advocacy for herself ([40:44] Tom Myers).

4. Dr. William Kirkland: Introduced as a charming and educated black doctor, Dr. Kirkland represents the rising black middle class in Newport. His relationship with Peggy and the tensions with his mother, Mrs. Kirkland (played by Phylicia Rashad), highlight internal community prejudices and the struggle for acceptance ([48:38] Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar).

Themes Explored

1. Colorism and Stratification within the Black Community: The episode delves into colorism through Mrs. Kirkland’s disdain for Arthur Scott, a darker-skinned former slave. This internal prejudice reflects broader societal issues of the time, emphasizing the complexities within the black elite ([55:17] Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar).

2. Black Elite and Wealth: The portrayal of the Kirkland family showcases how black families built and maintained wealth through entrepreneurship in Newport’s burgeoning tourism industry. Dr. Dunbar explains the fragile nature of this wealth, vulnerable to personal and economic setbacks ([56:44] Dr. Dunbar).

3. Love and Relationships: The narrative juxtaposes business-driven marriages with genuine love interests, particularly through Peggy and Dr. Kirkland’s budding romance. This exploration of black love in the Gilded Age underscores the characters' desire for personal happiness amidst societal constraints ([53:38] Dr. Dunbar).

Interviews with Cast and Crew

1. Danae Benton as Peggy Scott:

   • Character Development: Benton discusses Peggy’s evolution from season one to now, highlighting her growth into a multifaceted artist and an advocate for herself. She emphasizes Peggy’s journey towards sovereignty and personal fulfillment ([34:25] Danae Benton).
   • Collaborations: Benton shares experiences working closely with co-executive producer Dr. Dunbar and celebrates working alongside industry legends like Phylicia Rashad and Bryan Stokes Mitchell, enhancing the authenticity and depth of the show ([43:22] Danae Benton).

2. Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar:

   • Historical Accuracy: Dr. Dunbar elaborates on the creation of Dr. Kirkland, a composite character inspired by real black physicians educated at historically black colleges like Howard University. She emphasizes the importance of representation and accurate portrayal of black middle-class life in Newport ([48:38] Dr. Dunbar).
   • Themes of Black Joy and Love: Dr. Dunbar expresses joy in portraying black love and courtship, highlighting its significance in a period marked by rollback of rights and systemic oppression. She underscores the narrative's focus on black joy as a powerful counterbalance to historical struggles ([53:38] Dr. Dunbar).

Notable Quotes

• "Your mother is being dramatic." – [00:45] Alicia Malone
• "Be still, sad heart, and cease repining. Behind the clouds is the sun still shining." – [04:56] Alicia Malone referencing Henry Longfellow’s poem, providing a contrast to the Duke’s despair.
• "I'd call them prejudices." – [32:05] Danae Benton on character motivations.
• "Perhaps I will find my place in Newport with Aurora and I'll spend the rest of my days with society's castoffs and women of ill repute, at least they'll have wine." – [17:27] Agnes Russell

Conclusions

Episode “Love is Never Easy” masterfully intertwines fictional narratives with historical contexts, offering a nuanced portrayal of the black elite in the Gilded Age. Through rich character development and thoughtful exploration of themes like colorism, societal pressure, and black joy, the podcast episode provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the show’s depth and its reflection of historical realities. The interviews with Denée Benton and Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar further enhance the discourse, offering insider perspectives that bridge the gap between history and its modern-day portrayal.

This episode serves as a testament to the show's commitment to authentic storytelling, celebrating the resilience and complexity of its characters while shedding light on often-overlooked aspects of black history.

Transcript

[Tom Myers]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Bannister, was there any mail? Not for you, ma'. Am. Only Mrs. Forte. Of course. You see, it's begun. What's that, Mama? My societal demise.

[Alicia Malone]

Your mother is being dramatic.

[Tom Myers]

Really? It's so unlike her.

[Alicia Malone]

So unlike Agnes to be dramatic. Welcome back to the official Gilded Age Podcast for another episode. I'm Alicia Malone from Channer Classic Movies. This is the podcast where we recap the latest episode of the Gilded Age and then go behind the drama to explore all the real historical fact. And to do that, I have to have with me a man who knows all about history, historical facts, and a little bit of drama. It's Tom Myers, who is the host of the Barry Boys Podcast. Hello, Tom.

[Tom Myers]

We will talk about that little bit of drama later offline Alicia, but. Hi, Alicia. Hello, everybody. We are so glad that you're joining us today as we unpack episode three. There is a lot of unpacking to do in today's episode. We could actually use a valet, actually. Or a valet to help out with some of this unpacking. Do you have a valet? Do you have a valet?

[Alicia Malone]

No, I don't have a valet or a valet. But I was thinking, Tom, you know, if you could go back to the Gilded Age and you had a lot of money and you could hire a staff, who would you choose? What position would you have? Or actually, which character from the downstairs staff of the Russells or the Van Rhijns would you choose to help you? I'm going to pick Mrs. Bauer because I think her cooking looks great. I want her to cook for me.

[Tom Myers]

Who doesn't want her to cook? It's all so homey. It's yummy. And I was going to say Mrs. Bauer, too. Just spring this on me. Maybe I need a valet. Maybe I. No, I want Bannister. Because Bannister can always handle the drama, right? He just. I think he would help strain things out around here. No, but actually, Bannister would be great. I would just love to hear that accent, that voice. He would keep me kind of grounded around here. But later on, after we do some unpacking, we will be joined by one of our favorite characters, Peggy. We will be joined by Danae Benton, who plays Peggy. And then we will be joined by co executive producer Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar to talk through some of the most, well, challenging moments in today's episode.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, there are quite a few challenging moments, so let's just dive right into it. This is season three, episode three, titled Love is Never Easy, written by Julian Fellowes and Sonja Warfield and and directed by Michael Engler. And we begin behind a closed door. So George Russell is negotiating with the Duke and his lawyer about all the financial arrangements concerning his possible engagement to Gladys and Tom. His first round of negotiations does not go well.

[Tom Myers]

No, it's more arguing. Poor George. There's a lot of arguing and like, not business closing happening so far in these three episodes. George announces that, yes, he is prepared to match the Duke's offer, but that part of the amount will need to be paid directly to Gladys, which leaves the Duke completely aghast. Paid to Gladys? Yes. But what use is that to me? A disappointing response, if I may say so.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I thought that was an extremely disappointing response. It really just hones in on the fact that this is pure business for him. And then as Hector is leaving, he quotes from a Henry Longfellow poem to Bertha and it's called the Rainy Day. And I'd love to just tell you the last verse because it actually is much more of a hopeful poem than the Duke makes it out to be. So the last verse says, be still, sad heart, and cease repining. Behind the clouds is the sun still shining. Thy fate is the common fate of all into each life. So some rain must fall, some days must be dark and dreary. So it's kind of saying that even though you have dark days, the sun is always right behind the clouds, which feels a little more hopeful than the Duke is at this moment.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, that's actually surprisingly hopeful. Thank you for that. I wonder if the Duke knew the whole poem. But poetry aside, I think I'm really with George on this matter because this mess is of Bertha's making. Right? And we see George is washing his hands of it and Gladys looks clearly relieved here.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, relieved is definitely the word that I would use for Gladys face here. So let's bring this back to Consuelo Vanderbilt, the real story that inspired this plotline. Consuelo Vanderbilt was the daughter of Alva Vanderbilt, who organized a wedding between Consuelo and the 9th Duke of Marlborough. So we were talking about this last week. Basically, Alva forced Consuelo into this engagement, and she was really sort of instrumental in making the whole thing happen, wasn't she?

[Tom Myers]

She was Indeed, yes. Remember that while Consuelo and Alva had been visiting the Duke in the summer of 1895 in England at his Blenheim palace, his family home, that needed a major overhaul during that visit, Alva invited him to come and visit them in New.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, that's right. To come to a ball that she was throwing in Newport. And Alva was also going through a divorce at the same time. And I was reading that basically she told all of New York society that they needed to show their loyalty to her. By attending this ball, she was proving.

[Tom Myers]

That she could still rule society and make people show up. So he arrived by ship in late August of 1895 and headed up to Newport, where he stayed at Alva's lovely mansion, Marble House. And the Duke was seen all over Newport. He was visited by folks there at Marble House, where he was staying. And Alva's now ex husband, Willie K. Vanderbilt, even threw a lunch for him on his yacht. And most notably, the Duke was the guest of honor at that big ball that she threw on August 28th of 1895. And you know, Consuela was with her mother the whole time, decked out. Consuela was in a white suit, satin dress, and there were hundreds of guests who arrived and danced in the Gold Ballroom, a ballroom in the center of which now hung a new painting of Consuelo that had been done by Carolus Duran and which had been commissioned by Alva.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, kind of like the painting that Bertha commissions of Gladys. And all of this happened before Consuelo and the Duke were even engaged.

[Tom Myers]

That's right. Although there was already a lot of speculation that was already in the newspapers. In the book Consuelo and Alva the Story of a Mother and Daughter in the Gilded Age, author Amanda Mackenzie Stewart quotes a piece that appeared in the society gossip newspaper Town Topics. They wrote, quote, the presence of the Duke of Marlborough, if not an acknowledged suitor for the hand of Ms. Consuela Vanderbilt, certainly a suspected one, was of itself a successful stroke of diplomacy on Mrs. Vanderbilt's part.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, sounds very similar to Bertha. I can imagine Bertha enjoying being credited in that way. But all of this just makes me think about the immense pressure that Consuelo must have been under. She was 18 at this time and the whole town, the whole New York, the whole Newport, all of society, plus the press and her own family were very invested in this marriage happening.

[Tom Myers]

And then one night, as Consuelo wrote in her memoir, the Glitter and the.

[Alicia Malone]

Gold, look at your post, its there.

[Tom Myers]

I mean, it's all marked up. Yes. And I quote Alicia. It was in the comparative quiet of an evening at home that Marlboro proposed to me in the Gothic Room. There was no need for sentiment. I was content with his pious hope that he would make me a good husband and ran up to my mother with word of our engagement. There was no time for thought or for regrets. The next day, the news was out.

[Alicia Malone]

Hmm. So not at all romantic. Definitely. Like a business proposal.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. According to Consuelo's account of it, Amanda Stewart, in her book, writes that following that formal engagement, there was a short delay until the Duke of Marlborough's lawyer arrived from England. But they. They reached an agreement, a final agreement, an arrangement, really, that called for $2.5 million in railroad stocks from the Vanderbilts, which would pay out $100,000 a year to the duke for life, regardless of whether or not they stayed married. But that wasn't all, because apparently Consuelo's father, Willie Kay, was, according to Stuart, uneasy about the intentions of the duke. And so he offered a second $100,000 a year to be paid to Consuelo. But the Duke didn't accept that offer, and so negotiations came to a halt.

[Alicia Malone]

Exactly like what happens here with George and his offer to our Duke. It all comes together. And let's. Let's leave Consuelo for a little while. We'll come back to her later on. But continue talking about George, because all of his negotiations with the Duke and Bertha's determination to marry Gladys to him really seems to be driving a wedge between George and Bertha.

[Tom Myers]

That's quite a wedge. Yes. There's even the scene in this episode where she, you know, tries a little gentle seduction on George when he comes home late from work, and he turns her down.

[Alicia Malone]

Very, very calculated seduction on her part, but it doesn't go her way. And she even has to go to the opera alone in the opera house that she herself built, that she made a name for. And while at the opera, Bertha spots the Duke talking to a different heiress, Martha Delancey. Which made me wonder, of course, Tom, whether the Delancey family is a real historical family.

[Tom Myers]

Here we go. Oh, yes, they were. Yes. In fact, I spent about 15 years living four blocks away from Delancey street on the Lower east side.

[Alicia Malone]

And I know Delancey street from one of my favorite movies, Crossing Delancey by Joan Micklin Silver. Wonderful movie that all takes place around the Lower east side.

[Tom Myers]

That's right. Yes. And I mean, I crossed it daily.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, here we. We hear that the Delanceys are in banking and shipping, And George connects Mr. DeLancey to the Metropolitan National Bank.

[Tom Myers]

In real life, the Delanceys were a prominent family, and they married into other prominent families, you know, like the Van Cortlands. But they were mostly known as merchants and lawyers and notable politicians. Stephen, the De Lancey who came to New York. His son James, served as Chief justice and the Governor of New York. And he, in fact, had a huge farm which stretched over much of today's Lower east side from Division Streets all the way up near today's Houston Street. And people also lived on it and paid them rents. So there was a lot of money. Delancey street is named for James Senior, who was that former governor who died in 1760. But they were not an old banking family.

[Alicia Malone]

See, I learned so much from you, Tom. Every single episode. So Bertha invites Mr. DeLancey over to talk, and she uses her husband's name to send out the invitation. He thinks he's coming to see George Russell, which strikes me as being quite bold.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, that was kind of a bold move, right? And then, you know, Mr. DeLancey looks like he's about to bolt from the room when he figures out that he's been duped. But he sticks around and then informs Bertha. Bertha. That he intends to let his daughter Martha choose whom to marry. Kind of sticks it to Bertha a bit. I intend to watch my grandchildren grow up here in New York. In short, you think me quite foolish. I think you give these matters more importance than they're worth. But I confess I admire your spirit.

[Danae Benton]

I hear such nice things about your daughter.

[Tom Myers]

My son knows her.

[Danae Benton]

They met and danced in Newport.

[Tom Myers]

She told me. Good day, Mrs. Russell.

[Danae Benton]

I wonder, might I have your card?

[Tom Myers]

Certainly you may. You rather intrigue me, to be honest, Mrs. Russell. I only wish you knew how much more interesting you are than the Duke of Buckingham. Hello. Didn't see that little flirtation come in.

[Alicia Malone]

It did feel like a bit of flirtation. I think Bertha is always intriguing powerful men because she's so strong herself.

[Tom Myers]

But it's clear that Bertha has not given up on the Duke. And she actually invites him back. He comes back with his lawyer, who always seems to be sort of walking two steps behind him. Over for yet another round of negotiations.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and this got me thinking about what kind of role women would have had in brokering these kinds of financial arrangements about marriage, you know? Would Bertha, as a woman in 1884, have stepped over her husband in order to make it happen? Because it seems like Bertha promised the Duke A certain amount of money without even consulting George.

[Tom Myers]

And, you know, if we turn back to our real story here, the negotiations, all of them, took place between the Duke and Willie K. Consuelo's father, not with Alva. But those negotiations also came to an impasse, you know, over the money that the Duke would get and the money that was given to Consuelo. But then Consuelo writes in her memoir, quote, finally, the settlements were apportioned in equal shares at my request.

[Alicia Malone]

It also seems like in the end, she did have something of a say. I mean, she made that happen, even.

[Tom Myers]

If she didn't like it. Yeah. And according to Amanda Stewart's book, the domestic staff were later gossiping about all of this, saying that after they reached that agreement, Consuela spent the rest of the night in tears because she knew that it was all settled.

[Alicia Malone]

Sounds like she cried alert during this whole thing. And no adult came to her rescue at all. Anyway, so George quickly finds out that Bertha has talked to the Duke and talked to Mr. DeLancey. I mean, again, it just gets me wondering about Bertha's intentions. I mean, does she really believe that? Does she want to empower Gladys or does she want this for herself, to be the mother of a duchess? It's hard to tell.

[Tom Myers]

Yes, yes.

[Alicia Malone]

But let's leave that there for now because, Tom, we need our weekly Larian fix, our Larian update for this week, which includes another steamy stolen kiss.

[Tom Myers]

You know, it's nice to at least see one couple who's actually in love. Right. But I would say that it is definitely not a good look for Marian to get caught in this situation because she will not look, as she says, quote, pure as the driven snow.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And of course, Bertha does find out about the kiss, and I don't think she's on Team Larian.

[Tom Myers]

No, I'm not sure. I. I'm hopeful, but no. It seems like she's a little annoyed. But now we do need to check in with Larry and Agnes and Ada, because something is beginning to become obvious to Agnes. Right. She's noticing that she is getting fewer invitations to luncheons, teas and balls. And she dramatically proclaims, as we heard at the beginning of the episode, that this is the start of her exclusion from society. She has not been excluded like Aurora, for a divorce, but she's been excluded, she thinks, for losing her fortune.

[Alicia Malone]

And we get more fantastic dialogue from Agnes. My favourite line of this episode is when Agnes says, perhaps I will find my place in Newport with Aurora and I'll spend The rest of my days with society's castoffs and women of ill repute, at least they'll have wine.

[Tom Myers]

There was a. Yeah, right. There was a beat before the punchline there that she took. And Ada looks up like, oh, my God, really? Yeah, because. But it is a reminder that to top it all off, Agnes is awesome. Like living with the threat of a dry household hanging over her head.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, right, Because Ada wants everyone to sign this sobriety pledge that is part of the temperance movement. She really wants the staff to sign this. She sees it as a way to honor Luke's memory. But I don't know if it's simply about doing good for others, because it doesn't seem that fair to ask the staff to completely give up drinking.

[Tom Myers]

It does seem like a lot to ask of your staff. Although I did look it up, and at the time, it would have been legal for Ada to enforce a no alcohol policy, even off duty for her staff. So we will see, you know, if she's gutsy enough to go there.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, Ada is definitely upset about the staff not signing the pledge. She takes this as kind of a personal affront that they're not willing to follow her orders like they are with Agnes.

[Tom Myers]

But Bannister does point out to her that there is one member of the staff who has signed it. And Agnes nearly does a spit take when she hears that it's Armstrong. She immediately demands that Armstrong be brought to her this instant. You've never noticed I don't drink. I've noticed. You're no fun.

[Alicia Malone]

That's a good line. That is a good line.

[Tom Myers]

It's wickedly funny. Yes. And quite possibly also really mean.

[Alicia Malone]

And so later, Ada goes downstairs to talk to Mrs. Bauer, and I mean, her grief over Luke's passing is still really apparent here. You see how much she's struggling with it. And Bauer cryptically tells her that she may know a way and know someone who could help Ada talk to Luke again one last time.

[Tom Myers]

This scene got me excited for a couple reasons. For one thing, Ada was in the basement. Alicia, I don't think we've ever seen her down there before, right?

[Alicia Malone]

No.

[Tom Myers]

And judging from Mrs. Bauer's reaction, I don't think it happens often. And she might have even been enjoying a beer at the same time. We know how she likes a beer when she's cooking or at the end of a day. But also, that one more time comment made me think that maybe the show is ready to explore the spiritualism movement, which, you know, was definitely in full force by the 1880s here, so we'll see. I hope that they go there because it's really interesting. And speaking of new places for our characters, we finally also see Peggy in Newport. I don't think she's ever been up there. Right. And she is visiting a new character. She's visiting Dorothy's aunts and her cousins. And they have just received a letter from Dr. Kirkland, who has done a little bit of sleuthing to figure out Peggy's whereabouts.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I like this scene because all the women are quite giggly as Peggy is reading the letter. And you can tell that Peggy is not wanting to get her hopes up, but she is excited. And then we have that beautiful cliffwalk scene, the cliff walk of Newport. You see the extras in there with white summer clothes. There's a moment that's shot during magic hour, which is, you know, that moment before the sun sets where the light gets all glowy and golden. And filmmakers, especially someone like Terrence Malick, love to shoot during magic hour because it makes everyone look beautiful and it's so romantic. And there's also a great shot I saw of a pool of water, little puddle of water in the rocks. And you see the reflection of Dr. T.O. kirkland and Peggy in the water. I mean, the whole thing is just beautiful.

[Tom Myers]

Absolutely. Yeah. And that cliff walk is absolutely gorgeous. And while we're on the subject, Alicia, Dr. Kirkland, he's a catch, right? I mean. Right. I think I'm with Peggy's aunt on this one.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I agree. He is charming, he's well educated, and he also shows a human side when he stumbles on the rocks and then laughs at himself for being undignified. And also, as Peggy points out, he has seen her at her worst when she was very undignified when she was sick, and he still really likes her. And also, can I just quickly mention Peggy's dress? Just a tiny clap for Peggy's dress. The red poppies on the white dress, just gorgeous. I loved that dress.

[Tom Myers]

So many beautiful costumes already this season. Okay, so we are totally Team Peggy. Dr. Kirkland.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes.

[Tom Myers]

Deggie Perkland. We're team Perkland. No, it's no larian. Sorry.

[Alicia Malone]

I don't know if I can say, yeah, Kirkland with a straight face. I think we'll just stick to Peggy and Dr. Kirkland. But I did notice that Dr. Kirkland mentions to Peggy that Newport is different for us. So I'm curious about what that means, you know, in terms of the black elite.

[Tom Myers]

Yes. He mentions that there are more opportunities for them up there. So I think that this is a great question for our upcoming guest, Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar, who is a co executive producer on the show, and she's also a history professor at Emory University. Newport did have its own black elite scene. Right. So I would love to know more about this community and, you know, also why it's often overlooked. So I'm really glad that it's a part of the show.

[Alicia Malone]

Me too. And then Dr. Kirkland invites Peggy and her family to his family's party, where we meet Mr. And Mrs. Kirkland. New characters alert. Woo, woo, woo. And they are played by. Go for it, Tom.

[Tom Myers]

Broadway legends, ladies and gentlemen, Phylicia Rashad and Bryan Stokes Mitchell.

[Alicia Malone]

Yay.

[Tom Myers]

APPLAUSE and Felicia, who many also remember as Clara Huxtable on the Cosby show, was the first black actress to win a Tony for best actress in a play in 2004. But I digress. Back to the show.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, actually, I'm going to digress too, because Phylicia Rashad is also a dean emeritus at Howard University. She was the dean of the College of Fine Arts for several years, and she attended Howard University herself. So I kind of had to smile when Mrs. Kirkland is talking about Dr. Kirkland's education and she mentions Howard University.

[Tom Myers]

That's right. And why didn't he go to Harvard? Yes. So it turns out that Phylicia Burchard is quite a different person in real life than our Mrs. Kirkland here, who clearly has some issues. I mean, things got awkward pretty much immediately in conversation between the parents.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And again, we have characters pulling rank about their families. Mrs. Carlton, last week and this week, Mrs. Kirkland says proudly that her relative fought or maybe played the bugle in the Revolutionary War on the American side as a free man.

[Tom Myers]

That's right. More bragging about the Revolution on this season. It is true that thousands of African American men, both freed and enslaved, fought in the Revolution, fought on both sides. In fact, I have seen estimates of 20,000 to 28,000 men in total fought. And yes, Newport's Newport State, Rhode island had one of the most famous regiments that included black soldiers, called the 1st Rhode Island Regiment, in which 144 of its 225 soldiers were African American. So don't know about the whole bugle thing, but I. I think in that case, Mrs. Kirkland was probably just getting called out by her husband for maybe, you know, selective storytelling. But generally speaking, how did you feel that that party was going?

[Alicia Malone]

No. Yeah, this is rough because you can tell that the Scots are wanting to like the Kirklands. I mean, I think they feel very hopeful for Peggy. They like Dr. Kirkland, but it's pretty hard to ignore the types of things that Mrs. Kirkland says, particularly toward Arthur. I felt sorry for Arthur Scott.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. Her put down of Arthur was just painful. Right from the moment that she said, oh, I thought you were some sort of salesman, I was like, oh, no. Oh, no, she did not. And then that icky smile after, you know, after he mentioned that he founded his business after, quote, being freed, and she sort of did that cold smile. That was pretty enraging. Enraging, strong word. This show does not often enrage, but it managed to in this episode.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. So we will be talking about all of this with Dr. Dunbar and Danae Benton soon. But now let's get back to the Duke, because he returns and poor Gladys, she looks so frightened when she sees him.

[Tom Myers]

Also kind of enraging, right? No, poor. I mean, we see that poor Gladys is being played here, right? Because that scene opens, right? We see bottles of champagne being cooled on ice before they even talked about anything. So if ever there was any doubt, you know, now she. We. Everybody knows that Gladys is not in charge. She looks at her father and was like, you promised. Right. But everybody also knows that George is not in charge.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. I felt really sad for Gladys in that moment when she feels like her heart has been broken by her dad, who had promised her that she could marry for love. And then as they're getting ready for her big portrait unveiling, Gladys is crying. George urges her to give Hector a chance. And then, you know, Gladys and Hector talk and they seem to share quite a nice moment. I like that. You don't pretend, I'll give you that.

[Tom Myers]

Dear Gladys, can we please go forward on the basis that we won't pretend, not with each other. I mean, I kind of felt better after seeing that exchange, I think, because at this very tense moment, you know, she actually was able to be honest and throw it all out there. And that reminded me of the response that was given to the real Consuelo when she told her younger brother Harold about the engagement. He looked at her and said, according to her memoir, he's only marrying you for your money. And she says, and with that last slap in my pride, I burst into tears.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, ouch. More tears. Tears everywhere. And in our episode, Gladys and the Duke returned from their little chat to announce to the family that they are engaged. And then it's time for the portrait unveiling and John Singer Sargent unveils an incredible painting of Gladys. I was trying to look really closely. I want to see how they did that painting. It looks like it was a real painting.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, I froze my screen to really try to study it a little bit. And it has several things in common with the painting that Carolus Duran painted of Consuelo at 17. I mean, they're both in white gowns. Beautiful. But it is quite an awkward moment. I mean, all eyes are on Gladys, real Gladys and also painting Gladys. And George sort of pounces on the moment to announce the official engagement of Gladys to the Duke of Buckingham.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And Bertha looks absolutely thrilled at this. But Gladys feels like her world is closing on her. She's fiddling with her pearls as if they were choking her. And she pulls and she pulls and then finally her pearls go flying.

[Tom Myers]

Pearls dropping to the ground. Which is ominous. Right. Because pearls symbolize purity and balance and harmony and rebirth and all good things. Right. These qualities, those hopes for Gladys are dropping and shattering to the ground.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. I like how the score stops, the music score, the background sound goes silent and the pearls fall in slow motion. It kind of reminded me of a scene in Spencer starring Kristen Stewart where she played Princess Diana. And there's a moment when she's fiddling with her pearl necklace and pulls it and pearls go flying. Although one falls into her soup and then she eats it. I'm glad we didn't see that in the kill today.

[Tom Myers]

That would have been very daring for season three. But here at the end of this episode, at least we know that there is one person who is pleased with this turnaround.

[Alicia Malone]

Congratulations, my dear.

[Danae Benton]

It's sure to be the wedding of the year. I mean, to make it the wedding of the century.

[Alicia Malone]

Ooh, can't wait to see that, Tom.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Whew.

[Alicia Malone]

That was all very exciting. I think we need to catch our breath and take a break. And we do actually have more excitement coming up after the break because you will hear our interviews with Danae Benton, who plays Peggy, and Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar. So stay listening. We'll be back soon.

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[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Now I know how Elizabeth can be.

[Danae Benton]

And how is that she has preferences.

[Tom Myers]

I'd call them prejudices.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I think I agree with Arthur Scott there. Welcome back to the official Gilded Age podcast. I'm Alicia Malone, and joining me again is Tom Myers.

[Tom Myers]

Thanks, Alicia. Yes. Alicia and I were so honored, really, to recently get to sit down in New York City with Danae Benton, who plays Peggy Scott and talk about, well, this episode and really the journey that Peggy's been on.

[Alicia Malone]

Danae Benton, thank you so much for coming on our podcast again. It's so nice to see you in person this time.

[Danae Benton]

Yeah, this is exciting.

[Alicia Malone]

And we're excited to talk about season three. We're focusing on episode three, and there's a really great scene in this episode that I love with Peggy and Dr. Kirkland taking a lovely walk on the rocks in Newport. It looks like it was shot during magic hour, and there's all of the extras in their Newport outfits. What do you remember about filming that scene?

[Danae Benton]

I mean, we actually. We got to film it on the cliff walk, obviously. And I just remember the drone shot getting off all of this living history, you know, like, we get to discover the black elite of Newport and move into this whole other world. And the. These were real people and real stories, and it made me feel like, oh, my gosh. There was a moment like this in the 1880s where all of these black people were sitting and having a cookie in these decadent. And they weren't costumes for them. They were costumes for us. And it just felt like this moment of history coming to life and the light and just the ocean and the romance of the scene. I think people are gonna be have, like, a breathtaking response.

[Alicia Malone]

Absolutely.

[Tom Myers]

It's so beautiful. Well, Dr. Kirkland seems like a dream match for Peggy. Right. As we hear from Peggy's aunt. I mean, she certainly thinks so.

[Danae Benton]

Yes, yes. Athena is. She's already sewn the wedding dress. It's done.

[Tom Myers]

But his mother is a piece of work, isn't she?

[Alicia Malone]

Yes.

[Tom Myers]

So I want to know what you felt. How did you feel when you first read the script and were sort of introduced to the Kirkland family.

[Danae Benton]

I was thrilled. I was thrilled that we were going to get to have our, like, you know, Agnes of Newport. Our, like, very behavior. I don't know if I'm allowed to.

[Tom Myers]

Say that on the.

[Alicia Malone]

Sorry.

[Danae Benton]

On the podcast. You can kind of.

[Tom Myers]

Yes, check.

[Danae Benton]

Insert new word there. But grandem. Phylicia Rashad knows how to stare through your soul in disapproval as an actor, like the way she would. She looked me up and down as Mrs. Kirkland. The first day. I was like, oh, Peggy has to have a spine of steel to survive this. And I think that people are just gonna eat it up on a light note. And then on a more nuanced note, I loved that the show was gonna go into the classism and the colorism and all of the things that exist inside of black society as well. I thought was just really interesting food for thought that we'll get to work with this season.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Phylicia Rashad is a legend in the industry, and she's also a dean emeritus at Howard University, which is a nice little connection to the show.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah.

[Alicia Malone]

I mean, I imagine it must be thrilling to get to share the screen with her beyond.

[Danae Benton]

And she was so generous with me because I asked her 8,000 questions about her career. And she shared something with me that just. It makes me emotional to think about it. But, you know, when sh. When I came on set with Audra for the first time and Michael told me that she'd be playing my mom, he just started handing me a tissue. Cause I didn't realize I had started crying already. And then seeing Ms. Phylicia Rashad come on set, I saw. I was like, oh, Audra feels about her the way I feel about Audra and her. And then I got to ask Phylicia Rashad. I was like, who did you feel that way about? And she talked about working with Diane Carroll for the first time. And at the time, Diane Carroll was the highest rated woman on television, which. And she was the only black woman to ever hold that title. And then the next person to hold that title was Phylicia Rashad as Claire Huxtable. And I was just like, oh, my God. Like, Peggy doesn't exist without those women. And it's like a humbling legacy to get to be connected to.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. When we spoke on the first season, you told us a little bit about what an honor it was for you to work with Audra and how she had been this idol of yours. How has that relationship changed or deepened over these three seasons now?

[Danae Benton]

Oh, my gosh Audra just knows that she stuck with me in every possible way. I've, like, forced her into. Also outside of work, I got to sing with her on a cruise last summer. I've gotten to get to know her family. And just the way she carries herself as an artist and as a mother, and it is. Everything about it is inspiring. And she's so incredibly generous with her wisdom and has, like, let me, like, cry on her shoulder going through personal issues on set and talking to me about what it was like when she was that age, going through those things. And it has gotten to be. Sometimes they say, like, don't meet your heroes. And this is one of the cases that was the exact opposite. I feel like I've only gotten better by getting to know her and work with her.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and you touched on it a little bit. But it is a really interesting aspect that this season explores because we've seen white prejudice toward the black community, but now we see prejudice from the black community towards each other in Newport. Can you tell us a little bit about that aspect of the story?

[Danae Benton]

Yeah. Well, you know, it's like, white supremacy can make its way into anybody, unfortunately. And the concept of it. And I think that watching this community understand what it means to rise together, to rise separately, what they're afraid of makes them lose their own protections that they've gained for themselves. And watching the next generation try to move through how they wanna hold that or the way they don't, you know, it really drops it down into reality that we see that the Scott family is just one generation out of enslavement and the pride that, you know, the Kirklands have that their family doesn't have that history. And I think it's a really beautiful tension that we get to see them hold and get to see how Peggy and Dr. Kirkland want to handle that for themselves.

[Tom Myers]

And were you working again this season with Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar on that storyline?

[Danae Benton]

Oh, yeah. I mean, she's a co executive producer on the show. And so her and Sonia and Sally get to really be equal partners in the creative team with Michael and Julian and David. And I think that thinking of the work that Dr. Dunbar and I did season one, to really advocate for widening the lens on the black community and seeing the ways that those planted seeds have blossomed now, it makes me emotional. Cause it started with us in a corner being like, there's real possibility here to, like, do something that hasn't been done on television before and to shine a spotlight on these people who have been effectively erased from mainstream history in any way. We don't learn about them in school, Obviously. We're living under an administration now that will never want us to learn about them. And so it feels even more special during this time that we have such a big platform to share their stories on.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And it's nice to see all the Newport outfits. That's what I love. Seeing the lighter colors that everyone wears in summer.

[Danae Benton]

Absolutely.

[Alicia Malone]

Do you get to collaborate with the. Now that you know Peggy so well?

[Danae Benton]

Yeah. Kasha and I have such a beautiful working relationship now. And to think that, you know, season one, as in the creative process, before figuring out what Peggy was gonna be doing in the home, her costumes were gonna be very limited. You know, we were in, like, a lot of dark colors and blacks and browns, and really getting to talk with caution, be like, what is the research that we can use that we get to explain Peggy's color palette, and we get to expand the fabrics that we see her in, and we get to really make sure that she's on an equal footing with the Marians and the Gladys and what we get to see her do. And I think that we've been slowly building, and this season, I feel like we really capture it, and we get to see Peggy in these really decadent, decadent florals. Yeah. It's special. I think that it was another part of the advocacy that has paid off in ways that feel really rich.

[Tom Myers]

Well, and the costumes are not the only thing that has changed, because I feel like watching this season, Peggy is happy. You know, we finally get to see Peggy happy. Because you've had some really difficult situations.

[Danae Benton]

Yeah.

[Tom Myers]

And I think it was last episode in 302, where Dr. Kirkland is examining you, and you have this great sort of moment with him as he's starting to read your piece, you know, and then you make eye contact with. With Marian, and we just see happiness.

[Danae Benton]

Yeah, we get to see Peggy win. We get to see her kind of rise like a phoenix from all of these ashes, that she really fights to claim her own sovereignty and pays the price for what that looks like at that time. And I think as, like, a young woman, I really relate to that journey. And we get to see her kind of start to really enjoy the fruits of all of that labor in a way that I think audiences will really connect to and feel like the victory of seeing the underdog come out on top and see her be beheld by the type of gaze that Dr. Kirkland sees her with. I think it will be special.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And she's Always been good at advocating for herself, and she continues to as this new relationship unfolds. I love the moment in this episode where, you know, her aunt is like, if you ask me. And Peggy's like, I didn't ask you. Thank you very much. I mean, have you seen Peggy evolve from season one to now? Is she just coming more into.

[Danae Benton]

I think Peggy's coming more into herself. And I also love that we get to see people advocate for Peggy. I think that seeing the relationship between her and her mom heal, between her and her dad heal, we sort of get to see the people who are really team Peggy that are like, no, no, no, no, no. We learned from our mistakes, and this is her time to shine. And even, you know, Arthur Scott, by the end, is, like, now she's a writer. Okay. Dr. Kirkland, like, don't get in the way of her dreams. And it's really special to what repair can look like in the ways that it, like, helps her thrive.

[Tom Myers]

Question about that writing. So she has evolved as a writer, too?

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah.

[Tom Myers]

I mean, this is exciting to see the next step in her career take off.

[Danae Benton]

Absolutely. And Peggy sort of risks everything. Season one to follow that dream. Like, Peggy's sort of thriving. She's really created herself as a multifaceted artist, and I think as a working artist now, it's not hard for me to imagine her just, like, as another Brooklyn girl making it happen, you know? And so she's sort of the American girl doll of my dreams. I'm like, I feel like young girls having a Peggy doll would make sense to me.

[Alicia Malone]

I would love a Peggy doll.

[Tom Myers]

I would love a Peggy doll.

[Alicia Malone]

Another new cast member that we want to talk about is Brian Stokes Mitchell.

[Tom Myers]

Right.

[Alicia Malone]

Tom is a huge Broadway fan, and he was saying how it was really fun to see him and Audra, but not singing, not doing duets, sort of.

[Tom Myers]

Facing up through ragtime with them.

[Danae Benton]

Listen, I was riding on the wheels of that dream, if I may. It was like, you may. Because, you know, they're all also just such old friends and have been doing this together for so long. And I'm looking at them like, you don't know how many YouTube videos I watched at 15 of the two of you. Like, I know every breath you took. I know the downbeats. I know the look in your eye. You know, we're sort of. We studied them. And so then to get to just have them be living, breathing people hearing stories from. I think that I'll be reflecting on it probably for the rest of my career. What this has really meant.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah.

[Tom Myers]

How is it, generally speaking, being up in Newport, you know, being on location there and in this episode, in 303, I mean, Peggy is spending more time outside of the Van Rhijn house, too.

[Danae Benton]

Yeah.

[Tom Myers]

So we see her out in the world as well.

[Danae Benton]

Absolutely. The sickness sort of ends up being a blessing in disguise in so many ways. Not only does it bring Dr. Kirkland into her life, but she has to go by the sea and get some air. And what was very cool this year, Dr. Dunbar and I got to do a talk at the Newport Preservation Society, and some of the black families came who are descendants of people like the Kirklands, whose families have been in Newport for 11 generations. And some of them have all of like. It's like their home is like a living history museum. They have all of these pieces from that time and letters and mirrors and all of these things that they let Dr. Dunbar just, like, pick their brains about what that whole experience was. And so it's also alive in a way I didn't expect.

[Tom Myers]

Well, this is really exciting. We're excited to only be three episodes into this. We can't wait to see where it goes. Thank you, Danae Benton, for spending time with us today on the show.

[Danae Benton]

Thank you for having me.

[Alicia Malone]

Great. Thank you so much.

[Tom Myers]

That was so cool to get to sit down with Danae and talk to her. She is just. She's just radiant, isn't she? Had such a positive attitude and was just such a pleasure to speak to.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. She really was so engaging. And you felt like you were having a conversation with her. You know, Tom, I've done so many junkets in my time, and she reminded me of the biggest stars, just how luminous she was and how fun it was to talk to her. But, you know, we've got one more interview coming up, and this one is going to be fascinating. I am so excited that we get to talk to Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar once again on this show. She is a co executive producer and also a historical consultant. Well, it is so lovely to have you back on the podcast for the third time. Thank you so much for your time.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Yeah, it's wonderful to be here. Excited to talk about season three.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. I was watching a talk that you and Danae Benton gave in Newport, and it was really nice to see, particularly your friendship with Danae. I imagine that must have deepened over time because you work so closely with her.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Yeah. I feel kind of honored to call Danae a friend. Danae has been so very committed to this idea of telling an authentic story around Black women's lives. And as a historian, as someone who spent the past quarter century, I just dated myself, but a past quarter century, studying the lives of Black Women in 19th Century America. You know, it's one of the things that gives me great joy about this show is that we get to think about lives outside of the kind of typical narrative that we see or read about, which is life for black people. At a moment in time when the Civil War has come and gone, Reconstruction is wrapping up, we see a kind of reversion of rights. And in many ways, that story of the kind of Southern sharecropper is one that's quite pervasive when we think about the 1880s. So Danae has been so kind of steadfast in wanting to do the very best job in representing that. And I think, you know, that's been both Julian Fellowes and Sonia Warfield's real kind of mission with this. With this storyline in particular.

[Tom Myers]

And we see him already in this episode, in episode three. There are complexities and complexities to the story that I haven't really seen explored very much on television at all. We're also meeting new characters in this season. Alicia and I were just discussing one of our favorite new characters, Dr. William Kirkland. Can you tell us a little bit about the background research that went into creating a character who is a Black doctor in 1884? Were there any real life inspirations, any real doctors, you know, that helped to inform this character?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

You know, all of our characters are sort of inspired if they're not sort of taken directly from the history books. They are what I'd like to call sort of composite characters. And in many ways, Dr. Kirkland is exactly that. The, you know, majority of black physicians were graduating from a small, small number of what we would call now historically black colleges and universities. And so it gives really us the opportunity to talk about both that while there are a handful coming out of Harvard, Yale, the majority are being trained at a place like Howard, which at that time is really the premier institution, and many would argue it still is today. That was really sort of set up out of this era of the Civil War and Reconstruction to educate recently freed black men and women. And so for someone like Dr. Kirkland, we get to see someone who's made a choice. He's made a choice to be educated at Howard and to not sort of follow some of the pathways of some of his other family members who were physicians elsewhere, who had been educated as physicians elsewhere.

[Tom Myers]

And picking up on what you just mentioned there, I believe Dr. Kirkland's mother, played, of course, by Phylicia Rashad, points out that he could have gone to Harvard. Right. But he went to Howard.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

What we see, I think, with Mrs. Kirkland is in many ways, she is the grandam of her family, of the black community in Newport. And representation matters to her and to others. And she's quite clear and dogmatic about representing her family, her lineage, the education of her children, not just William, but her other son as well, making certain that everyone knows that they are the best, the best of the best. And while he's made his own decisions, he's still that. And so in many ways, we get to see both the Kirkland family and the Scott family with a very different background from the Kirklands.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And tell us about Newport. You know, what did Newport mean to black elite families like the Kirklands?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Yeah. One of the lovely things about, aside from spending a lot of time in Newport and shooting there and it's just so absolutely beautiful, is that it sort of reminds us of the importance of kind of leisure culture, and not just for black America at that moment, but more specifically, our show is kind of really focusing on how Newport becomes the kind of playground of the wealthy. Right. And it is that place where people go to vacation and to summer in a place like Newport. Suggested wealth, suggested status. We're seeing a family that owns property in Newport that live in Newport that can trace their ancestry back to the American Revolution. But when we think about it, there's a growing community of black men and women who are engaged in literary organizations and civic clubs. And they have churches and their sort of own sort of business opportunities, caterers, dressmakers. We see a little of that in season three. But I think what's really important is understanding that Newport is unlike New York and a place where proximity places black and white people closer to one another, residentially, in terms of walking the streets, commercially, using dressmakers and other kind of establishments, business establishments. And so it reminds us a little bit of the larger fluidity within race relations. Now, that's not to suggest that there wasn't racism in Newport, there was segregation, but it felt different than New York, and it gives us an opportunity to think about that.

[Alicia Malone]

And I was wondering whether you were excited that Peggy is getting a chance at a possible love match, maybe some happiness and lighter moments for her.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

I think everyone who watches the show wants desperately for both Peggy and Marian to find love that's sustainable and growing and beautiful. And I think one of the things that we get to see this season, in part is black joy. And I think that's really sort of powerful and important in the 1880s, and in many ways, being able to see black people court one another and imagine what that's like under a moment when there's a real sort of rollback in some of the laws that had come out of the Civil War. It's a reminder that black people didn't spend their days thinking about oppression. And so to be able to focus on black love and courtship is really such a treat.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. And then we meet his mother. If we can just jump forward a little to that awkward standoff. There's a lot of humble bragging that goes on at that tea party by. By Mrs. Kirkland. And she's dropping these kind of coded references to things, right? Like that. Not only you mentioned the Revolutionary War ancestor or the ancestor who fought in the war, she notes, as a free man. Right. And she mentions a couple. She makes a couple references. What is she doing here? What is she really saying?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

As awkward as this sort of moment was, I really think this is a powerful encounter for viewers to see, in part because it reminds us of the stratification, even within the black community. Mrs. Kirkland is setting up a narrative about her family, about her expectations that must be upheld. And as she's sort of dropping these sort of tidbits about her free status, a reminder to the Scots and anyone else else that she could not connect herself to the institution of enslavement. And so she's, you know, she's setting up a narrative for the Scots to understand. She doesn't know the Scots. She can't trace the Scots. They're not from her neck of the woods. And she's skeptical. And the more we watch this kind of uncomfortable conversation move about, we see this sort of widening chasm expand between the Scott family and the Kirklands.

[Alicia Malone]

And the Kirklands seem like they are generationally wealthy as a family. So how were families like the Kirklands able to build their wealth before the abolishment of slavery?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

The Kirklands are wealthy now. If we compare the Kirklands to the Russells, they are not right. And so it's all relative. And we have to remember that. However, there's this sort of growing black middle and what we would call upper middle class now of men and women who are benefiting from the tourism industry. And we can sort of think back to people like George Downing, who in Newport prior to the Civil War and a little bit afterwards, you know, they have. He's created a luxury hotel in Newport that unfortunately burns down prior to the Gilded Age. But what it does is set in motion a kind of black business entrepreneurship that establishes wealth and opportunity for a growing class of black men and women in Newport. So there were opportunities in dressmaking and catering stables, cab drivers, you know, because transportation is required. And so there. There's a way that a black middle class is positioned to develop and grow and grow their wealth. Now, it's important to remember that this wealth is fragile and that it really only takes one fire that could destroy a business, one illness of a husband who could pass away prematurely, that could leave a widow and children. And in many ways, we see that with Agnes as well, that really it takes one mistake, one bad decision that can ruin you. And for black America, I would argue they're even more vulnerable to those kinds of mistakes.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. One of the most powerful moments in this episode is when Mrs. Kirkland looks down on Arthur Scott for being a formerly enslaved man. You know, what kinds of prejudices existed within the black community between the free and the formerly enslaved?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Yeah. I was really, really happy that Julian and Sonya wanted to explore this, because we have to remember for our viewers, they have to understand that we are only 20 years away from the end of the Civil War. And so for the sake of comparison, that's like us remembering the early 2000s.

[Alicia Malone]

Right.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Doesn't seem that far away. We're in 2025. That's like remembering 2000. And for people of our demographic, that feels like yesterday. It doesn't feel so long ago and far away. And that's what we hope our viewers will understand as well, that we're only 20 years removed from enslavement, from legal enslavement in the nation. And what becomes very clear is that Mrs. Kirkland has no interest in connecting herself to that narrative, that she does not find great respect or admiration for someone like Arthur Scott, who's managed to emancipate himself, to move himself and his family from the sort of regions, environs of Maryland and moving them to eventually to New York, to educating his daughter, to growing a business, to becoming an entrepreneur. And not just an entrepreneur, but an educated one. He is a pharmacist, which back then was pretty much close to being a physician, Especially within the black community. People really relied upon pharmacists for medical care at a moment in which the professionalization of medicine was still sort of rolling itself out. And so she, Mrs. Kirkland, doesn't allow herself to kind of see Arthur Scott as a sort of self made man and find admiration in that. Instead she sees that as unfortunate and as someone who's not particularly worthy of being within or around her son and her friends. And so she's frosty and chilly purposefully while kind of inflating her own family and her own respectability as she sees it.

[Tom Myers]

There's also in the scene, colorism, this concept, right, that we overhear her say something. Mrs. Kirkland say something that's quite disturbing to us today. Could you elaborate on that?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

It was really important for Julian and Sonia to explore the kind of ugliness of what we would call colorism today. This understanding that light skin or light skin privilege was preferred for the Kirkland family. And Arthur kind of lays it all out. He throws the skunk on the table very kind of quickly and makes it clear that there was for some a preference for lighter skinned black men and women, a sort of prejudice, a bias that came out of this understanding that a European or white aesthetic, as we would call it today, was preferable, that it suggested a mixing of the races, that it would elevate one in terms of intelligence opportunity. It really sort of comes out of the sort of racism, of enslavement. And what we see is Mrs. Kirkland centering that. And there's this moment where she excuses herself from talking with the Scots and she's chastising the sort of governess that works for her who's been in charge of her grandchildren. And she's angry because she's not. She's taken them outside without an umbrella. And there's the suggestion that that action, that exposing the children to the sun would darken their complexion and that to darken one's complexion would in some ways deteriorate or dismantle the understanding of light skinned privilege. She doesn't do it directly in front of Arthur, who is a dark skinned black man. She doesn't do that. But we hear it, the audience hears it, the Scots hear it. And what that does is it triggers an immediate kind of distancing dislike between The Scots and Mrs. Kirkland and both Arthur and Dorothy. But Arthur very much is concerned about how his daughter will be viewed. He's very, very clear that he has aspirations for his daughter. And he's concerned that if this relationship with Dr. Kirkland, even though he has fond feelings for him, if it expands and it becomes more serious, that it's something that his daughter will have to deal with for the rest of her life.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Well, Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar, you always give us so much to think about in the show, so much to talk about on this podcast and it is always a pleasure to talk to to you. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Oh, thank you. It's always my pleasure to have a chance to talk with both of you. Thank you.

[Alicia Malone]

Tom. I think I said this twice now the previous two seasons after we spoke to Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar, but I just feel like I could listen to her all day. She is so fascinating and such a teacher. The way she speaks, it's wonderful.

[Tom Myers]

It's like we are her students at Emory University. If only. If only we could be. Well, that was so much fun. And with Peggy Danae before her, I mean, this has been a real journey today. So we are so glad that you joined us. We will be back next week. So after you watch episode four of the Gilded Age on Sunday, listen to or watch our official companion podcast, available wherever you find your podcast. Thanks so much for listening.

[Alicia Malone]

Bye.

[Tom Myers]

This has been the official Gilded Age podcast, written, hosted and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers.

[Alicia Malone]

The podcast is a production of HBO in collaboration with Pod People.

[Tom Myers]

For Pod People, our supervising producer is Rebecca Chassan, associate producer Sam Gabauer, and our video editor is Derek Schultz. Special thanks to Hannah Pedersen and Amy.

[Alicia Malone]

Machado for HBO Podcasts. Our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt and associate producer is Erin Kelly.