“Marriage is a Gamble” with Taissa Farmiga and Kasia Walicka Maimone

Summary

The Official Gilded Age Podcast Episode Summary: “Marriage is a Gamble”

Release Date: July 14, 2025
Guests: Taissa Farmiga (Gladys Russell), Kasia Walika Maimone (Costume Designer)
Hosts: Tom Myers and Alicia Malone

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Introduction

In the “Marriage is a Gamble” episode of The Official Gilded Age Podcast, hosts Tom Myers and Alicia Malone delve deep into the fourth episode of HBO’s The Gilded Age. Joined by actress Taissa Farmiga, who portrays Gladys Russell, and costume designer Kasia Walika Maimone, the discussion offers an expansive exploration of both the on-screen drama and the intricate historical parallels that enrich the narrative.

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Episode Recap

Plot Overview:

The episode centers around Gladys Russell’s highly anticipated wedding to the Duke of Buckingham, mirroring the historical union of Consuelo Vanderbilt and the Duke of Marlborough. The hosts provide a detailed walkthrough of the episode’s key scenes, emphasizing the preparatory chaos orchestrated by Bertha Russell and the societal pressures exerted on Gladys.

Key Scenes Discussed:

• Pep Talk by Bertha [03:08]: Bertha rallies the household staff in a militaristic pep talk to ensure the wedding’s success. This scene underscores Bertha’s authoritative nature and her commitment to maintaining societal standards.

• Wedding Preparations [04:17]: The rapid pace from engagement to wedding day is paralleled with the real-life Vanderbilt marriage, highlighting the intense pressure and limited time for planning.

• Bridesmaids Dynamics [05:19]: The episode introduces familiar names like Leonie Jerome, adding layers of historical Easter eggs that resonate with viewers well-versed in the period’s elite circles.

• Arrival of Aunt Monica [08:25]: Merritt Weaver’s portrayal of Monica adds tension, as her presence brings hidden family dynamics to the forefront, subtly hinting at Bertha’s backstory.

• Wedding Day Tensions [12:35]: The hosts dissect pivotal moments such as Monica’s dress mishap and the ceremonial delays, drawing direct lines to the real-life experiences of Consuelo Vanderbilt.

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Myers [03:53]: “We had been waiting for this. It was on, it was off, and now it's here. And wow, what an episode.”

• Taissa Farmiga [07:05]: “So what kind of rumors were circulating about her wedding day? Because I did read that there was an article about her undergarments.”

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Historical Parallels

The episode masterfully intertwines the fictional marriage of Gladys Russell with the real historical union of Consuelo Vanderbilt. Hosts highlight several parallels:

• Speed of Engagement to Marriage: Both Gladys and Consuelo experienced swift transitions from engagement to marriage, emphasizing the societal and familial pressures of the era.

• Press Scrutiny: Just as Consuelo’s wedding was a media frenzy, Gladys’s wedding attracts intense newspaper attention, including invasive details about her attire.

  • Tom Myers [07:59]: “There was an article published in the New York Times... it is of white brocaded satin... solid gold clasps...”

• Absence of Immediate Family: The lack of immediate family presence at both weddings underscores themes of autonomy and societal expectations.

• Economic Transactions: The financial arrangements made by George Russell to facilitate the marriage echo the transactional nature of aristocratic marriages during the Gilded Age.

Notable Quotes:

• Taissa Farmiga [17:05]: “Consuelo's wedding took place at St. Thomas's Church, just like Gladys's.”

• Tom Myers [07:05]: “Consuelo wrote in her memoir that, quote, accounts were fabricated.”

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Character Analysis

Bertha Russell:

Bertha emerges as a formidable matriarch, meticulously orchestrating her daughter’s wedding to uphold family honor and social standing. Her interactions reveal a blend of authoritarian control and underlying vulnerabilities tied to her past.

• Tom Myers [06:37]: “Young BERTHA Pre becoming Mrs. George Russell. What was she like?”

Gladys Russell:

Gladys is portrayed as conflicted and resistant, yearning for personal freedom amidst arranged circumstances. Her emotional turmoil is a focal point, reflecting the broader theme of individual desire versus societal obligation.

• Kasia Walika Maimone [37:01]: “For Gladys, it's just, I want to be happy. Should be as simple as that.”

Aunt Monica:

Monica serves as a catalyst for unveiling deeper family secrets and tensions, providing insight into Bertha’s character and the broader familial dynamics at play.

• Taissa Farmiga [08:57]: “Monica is the only relative on Gladys side...”

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Production Insights: Costume Design

Kasai Walika Maimone’s Contributions:

Kasia provides an in-depth look into the meticulous process behind designing the extravagant wedding dresses, emphasizing historical accuracy blended with visual grandeur:

• Design Process [50:43]: The creation of Gladys’s wedding dress involved three months of research and collaboration, ensuring a balance between historical inspiration and on-screen beauty.

  • Kasia Walika Maimone [54:52]: “Every tiny little detail is so meticulously, like, sorted out in advance.”

• Reusability of Dresses [61:03]: Costumes are strategically reused to maintain continuity and manage production resources, particularly for Bertha’s extensive wardrobe.

• Challenges in Filming [40:54]: Filming the wedding scene posed logistical challenges, from the physical burden of the wedding dress to the emotional demands of portraying a conflicted bride.

  • Kasia Walika Maimone [42:31]: “Sometimes, like, with the soup, like, you're supposed to spoon away and, like, dab. And then sometimes I mess that up.”

• Historical Adaptations [51:12]: While inspired by real historical events, the costume design adapts to reflect a different timeline, allowing creative freedom while maintaining period integrity.

  • Alicia Malone [53:13]: “Consuelo's wedding happened in 1895... a completely different silhouette in fashion.”

Notable Quotes:

• Taissa Farmiga [40:39]: “I've done a few of those. I've had my own wedding and real life divorce now.”

• Kasia Walika Maimone [61:03]: “Bertha is a person who would continuously make new stuff that's part of this language of impressing the neighbors.”

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Interviews with Guests

Taissa Farmiga on Portraying Gladys [35:41 – 49:47]:

Taissa reflects on her character’s emotional journey, highlighting the complexities of Gladys’s desires versus her obligations:

• Character Development: Gladys’s arc from confidence to emotional turmoil mirrors her struggle for personal agency.

  • Kasia Walika Maimone [36:18]: “Gladys is a bit on her high horse... she feels like she could follow her heart.”

• Emotional Challenges: Depicting a heartbroken bride required intense emotional investment, especially during the filming of poignant scenes.

  • Taissa Farmiga [40:38]: “Well, tell us about the wedding dress. How did you work with Kasha on that particular look?”

• Casting and Chemistry: The dynamic between Gladys and other characters, particularly Hector the Duke, adds depth to the interpersonal relationships depicted.

  • Kasia Walika Maimone [43:50]: “Ben's an amazing guy, like, genuinely. He's super intellectual and also really silly and funny.”

Kasia Walika Maimone on Costume Design [50:24 – 63:35]:

Kasia discusses the intricate process of designing costumes that reflect both historical accuracy and the show’s aesthetic ambitions:

• Research and Inspiration: Extensive research into period fashion informed the creation of outfits that honor historical events while serving the narrative.

  • Alicia Malone [52:21]: “We studied it to death... it was a major transformation of what was happening in the reality, in the historical reality of costumes.”

• Collaboration: Working closely with directors, actors, and production designers ensures that costumes enhance storytelling and character development.

  • Alicia Malone [59:44]: “A lot of the times that photography from the period keeps feeding those elements of character.”

• Practical Challenges: Managing the physical aspects of elaborate costumes, such as heavy trains and intricate details, requires meticulous planning and teamwork.

  • Kasia Walika Maimone [56:32]: “At one point, they put it in, like, a Zara tote bag for me so I could, you know, walk around and go get my own coffee.”

Notable Quotes:

• Kasia Walika Maimone [54:52]: “The moment when you see it walking, like when we all walked into the church...”

• Alicia Malone [63:09]: “They have to, you know, pay respect, and you want to create the scene together.”

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Themes and Insights

Societal Expectations vs. Personal Freedom:

The episode underscores the tension between societal obligations and individual desires, embodied by Gladys’s reluctant marriage and her concealed emotional turmoil. This theme resonates with the broader narrative of the Gilded Age, a period marked by strict social hierarchies and the burgeoning push for personal agency.

Historical Accuracy and Creative Liberties:

A balanced approach to historical representation allows the show to stay true to the essence of the era while introducing fictional elements that enhance drama and character development. Costume design plays a pivotal role in this balance, blending authentic materials and styles with creative interpretations.

Emotional Authenticity in Storytelling:

The hosts and guests emphasize the importance of conveying genuine emotions, particularly in pivotal scenes like the wedding ceremony. Taissa’s portrayal of Gladys’s inner conflict adds layers of depth, making the character’s journey relatable and compelling.

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Conclusions

The “Marriage is a Gamble” episode of The Official Gilded Age Podcast offers a rich, multifaceted analysis of the corresponding television episode. Through detailed recaps, historical comparisons, and insightful interviews, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of both the narrative and production elements that make The Gilded Age a standout series. The collaboration between actors, costume designers, and the creative team exemplifies the intricate craftsmanship behind period dramas, ensuring an engaging and authentic viewing experience.

Final Thoughts:

• Tom Myers [63:37]: “There is so much of a balance to be found between making it historically accurate, but also making it look beautiful on screen.”

• Taissa Farmiga [64:01]: “That would be full circle.”

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Key Takeaways

• Historical Parallels Enhance Storytelling: Drawing direct comparisons between the show’s events and real historical moments adds depth and authenticity to the narrative.

• Costume Design as Narrative Tool: Elaborate costumes not only reflect the period but also symbolize character traits and societal roles, enriching the viewer’s understanding of each character.

• Emotional Complexity Drives Engagement: Portraying characters with internal conflicts and emotional struggles makes the story more relatable and engaging for the audience.

• Collaborative Creativity is Essential: The synergy between actors, designers, and producers ensures that every aspect of the show contributes to a cohesive and immersive experience.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Tom Myers [03:53]: “We had been waiting for this. It was on, it was off, and now it's here. And wow, what an episode.”

• Taissa Farmiga [07:05]: “So what kind of rumors were circulating about her wedding day? Because I did read that there was an article about her undergarments.”

• Kasia Walika Maimone [37:01]: “For Gladys, it's just, I want to be happy. Should be as simple as that.”

• Tom Myers [07:59]: “There was an article published in the New York Times... it is of white brocaded satin... solid gold clasps...”

• Kasia Walika Maimone [54:52]: “The moment when you see it walking, like when we all walked into the church...”

• Alicia Malone [53:13]: “Consuelo's wedding happened in 1895... a completely different silhouette in fashion.”

• Taissa Farmiga [40:38]: “Have a lot of the exposure of the show now, that comes with all of that being held accountable by the script manager, doesn't it?”

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Closing Remarks

The “Marriage is a Gamble” episode not only recaps the pivotal events of The Gilded Age but also provides invaluable insights into the meticulous production process and the historical research that underpins the series. Through engaging discussions and expert interviews, the podcast episode serves as an essential companion for fans seeking a deeper appreciation of the show’s artistry and narrative intricacies.

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Thank you for reading this summary of “Marriage is a Gamble” from The Official Gilded Age Podcast. For more detailed discussions and behind-the-scenes insights, tune into the podcast available on all major platforms.

Transcript

[Tom Myers]

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[Taissa Farmiga]

I can't help feeling that asking Marion to be a bridesmaid was a rare sign of good taste on Mrs. Russell's part. Not to be unkind.

[Alicia Malone]

Unkind, but not necessarily untrue.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

Wasn't there something in the paper that.

[Taissa Farmiga]

We wanted to ask you about.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

Agnes?

[Tom Myers]

Well, I like Mrs. Russell and I've decided from now on, I'm only going to say nice things about everyone. Quite an adjustment for you. Don't make me change my mind. Welcome back to the official Gilded Age podcast, where every week we go behind the scenes of HBO's the Gilded Age to discuss both the drama and the history of each episode. I am Tom Myers from the Bowery Boys Podcast, joined as always with her own dramatic insights by my friend from tcm, Alicia Malone.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Hello, Tom. Well, I do have plenty of dramatic insights for this episode because the the big day is Here it is. Gladys Wedding.

[Tom Myers]

We had been waiting for this. It was on, it was off, and now it's here. And wow, what an episode. Alicia, I'm just gonna ask you this once. Where are you sitting in that church?

[Taissa Farmiga]

Oh, I mean, I think towards the back because I wanna be able to chat and gossip and not be caught out by Bertha. What about you?

[Tom Myers]

I want to be right next to Aunt Monica because I just met her and I just can't get enough.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yes, she would have some good insights into what Bertha is actually like. But also this episode we have two great interviews with people that were pivotal to this episode. Taissa Famiga, who plays Gladys, and the costume designer, Kasia Walike Maimone.

[Tom Myers]

But before that, let us recap season three, Episode four, It's called Marriage is a Gamble, written by Julian Felez and Sonia Warfield and directed by Michael Engler. So the episode begins in an almost militaristic manner with lines of soldiers, or rather staff members, who are marching up and down stairs and hallways to attend a kind of pep talk at the bottom of the steps, which is led by their drill sergeant, Bertha. It was really quite a group, Alicia. You see the cooks, you see the footmen in livery, the maids there are like, I think I counted 50. And Bertha is pleading with them to help make Gladys wedding day a success.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, and I was really surprised that we're getting straight into the wedding. I mean, Bertha does not mess around. We just had the engagement. Now we have the wedding. And obviously when we talk about Gladys wedding, we have a real life event to compare it with, the wedding of Consuelo Vanderbilt to the 9th Duke of Marlborough. So was it a quick turnaround for her as well, from engagement to.

[Tom Myers]

Yes. In real life, things also moved really quickly. Remember that the Duke came to Newport in late August 1895 to stay with Alvin Consuelo. And remember Alva threw a big ball at the end of the month in his honor. Three weeks after that ball, on September 20th, the news hit that the Duke had proposed to Consuelo, and then they got married on November 6, 1895. So, yeah, they had like six or seven weeks to pull things together, which does not seem like a lot of time, but I have a feeling that Alva probably had some help getting through some of that planning.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, I'm sure she had her own army of helpers to help pull it off, kind of like Bertha does here. Now, we hear in the show that Gladys has six bridesmaids. And we see Bertha reluctantly asking Marian if she will fill in for one of the bridesmaids who's ill. So Larry mentions Leonie Jerome, and Bertha mentions Carry Asteroid, Mary Drexel and Isabel Winthrop.

[Tom Myers]

Right. And there are some familiar names there. I think, as you would say, a nice little Easter egg in there, that they included Leonie Jerome. If you will just indulge me for a moment and stick with me here. Leonie, who got sick in our story, was a real person. And in real life, she was the youngest sister of Jenny Jerome. And Jenny Jerome is the one who married Lord Randolph Churchill, and as we mentioned, was the mother of Winston Churchill. Jenny was also the aunt of Charles Spencer Churchill, who was the 9th Duke of Marlborough. The very duke who married, you guessed it, Consuelo Vanderbilt. Do you follow me?

[Taissa Farmiga]

I got it. I got it now. Okay, so what about Consuelo? When it came to bridesmaids, did she have six or did she have more bridesmaids than that?

[Tom Myers]

She had eight, in fact, who she said were selected for her by her mother. And several were much older than she was. Carrie Astor was not one of them. Mary Drexel was not one. We know how Julian Fellowes loves dropping into Drexel. But some of the real bridesmaids did come from families who we hear on the show there was a Marie Winthrop and a May Golet and Edith Morton. I couldn't find any reports of last minute sicknesses or stand inside.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Okay, well, throughout this episode we hear that there are various news stories about the intimate details involving Gladys wedding, including information on her dress, on her corset, also her undergarments. And I know that Consuelo's marriage was a huge story in the press. So what kind of rumors were circulating about her wedding day? Because I did read that there was an article about her undergarments.

[Tom Myers]

There was published in multiple newspapers. Consuelo wrote in her memoir about reporters calling her house daily. And when they weren't given any information, she said that, quote, accounts were fabricated. I read to my stupefaction that my garters had gold clasps studded with diamonds and wondered how I should live down such vulgarities. But the show's writers weren't necessarily making this up because I found an article published in the New York Times, of all places, on October 27, about 10 days before the wedding, with an illustration of Consuelo's corset. And there was a full description of it that included the lines, quote, it is of white brocaded satin. The clasps are like the clasps of an ordinary corset, except in this instance, they are of solid gold. And it goes on and on about the hooks in the front made of solid Roman gold.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Wow, sounds expensive. And also very, very detailed about the corset. So where were the papers getting all of this information from?

[Tom Myers]

Well, the gossip newspaper Town Topics suggested a few days before Consuelo's wedding that maybe Alva might be acting as her own press agent. But I am sure that Bertha would never ever leak details to the press.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Never. She would never even think of that. Such a thing. Okay, well, back in our show, Larry is upset that Bertha did not invite her sister Margaret Monica to the wedding. He Says she's the only relative of yours that we know. And so then behind Bertha's back, Larry invites Monica and she arrives. She's played by Merritt Weaver, who is a two time Emmy award winner. And it's funny that Monica just immediately picks up on the fact that Bertha is not so happy to see her.

[Tom Myers]

I'm loving Aunt Monica. I actually think that I reacted a little bit like Mrs. Winterton when I saw her for the first time. I was kind of like how fascinating and she is. She is fascinating. I mean, she offers some insight into Bertha's past. Right. She seems completely unfazed by Bertha's position in society. She knows the real Bertha. I think my favorite moment here was when George takes her arm and they sort of saunter off together looking like they are just ready to seriously dish, you know, and swap secrets. Come to the drawing room and tell me all your news.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

I'm not convinced Bertha's very pleased to see me.

[Tom Myers]

Nonsense, she's delighted. Nobody loves family more than Bertha.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, there'd be a lot of secrets there. And it is nice to see that someone is representing Bertha's family at the wedding.

[Tom Myers]

But Alicia, did you notice that there is nobody representing any of the Russells?

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yes. That's interesting.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. At least we're not introduced to them. All of society seems to be there. Right. But Monica is the only relative on Gladys side, which actually does have a parallel in the Vanderbilt story because aside from her immediate family, there were no Vanderbilts present at Consuelo's wedding and there were like dozens of Vanderbilts.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah. So was that because they, they didn't agree with the arranged nature of the marriage?

[Tom Myers]

No, I think primarily because they were upset with Alva because of her recent divorce with Willie Kay and the way that she was treating him. Right. And because she was being seen publicly around town with Oliver Belmont. That family drama was another major part of all of the press coverage. And it's especially notable because St. Thomas's Church was located right in the middle of what was called Vanderbilt Row. Like, most of the family lived within two minutes walk from the church. So, you know, you know, everybody was talking about the fact that there were no Vanderbilts at the wedding.

[Taissa Farmiga]

And Bertha's main question for Monica seems to be like, what have you got to wear? She is very concerned that Monica just has the one dress that she plans to wear for both the wedding and for the Duke's dinner. And she tells her sister how many times in one day she gets changed, which makes me exhausted just thinking about it. And Monica is very surprised by all of the rules her sister has.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

What rules you live by?

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, she definitely has rules. And this whole thing makes me want to know more about young BERTHA Pre becoming Mrs. George Russell. What was she like?

[Tom Myers]

Can you imagine teenage Bertha o'? Brien? I imagine Bertha had drive. Right. You know, the other person who knew her then was George. Which is why Monica and George are so fun to watch. Right. As they roll their eyes at each other. And we see that happening at this pre wedding dinner for the Duke. Gladys is, of course, absent. She's hiding out in her room. But Bertha is on her best behavior. Aunt Monica is looking like a, quote, cook on her night off and is just peppering the Duke with all of these uncomfortably direct questions. And we meet new character alert. The Duke's uptight sister, Lady Sarah, who is played by British actress Hattie Moran. And Alicia, I am just loving what Lady Sarah is serving up at this dinner. It is like delicious British snobbery.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, this is a really funny dinner because on one side you have Monica who's just blurting out whatever she thinks. Then you have the other side with Lady Sarah being very cold and snooty during coffee. You know, Monica's coffee cup mysteriously breaks, which happens to ruin her one dress. And I wonder, Tom, how that happened. How could that have happened?

[Tom Myers]

How could that have happened? Did you see Monica's face the moment that the cup crumbled in her fingers? I mean, she had just tossed out the line. I wonder if Gladys has thought about it. I would. And she makes this hilarious face at the Duke, which I just can't imagine anybody ever making a face at him like this. And then this coffee cup crumbles in her fingers and Monica quickly just kind of exits stage left. I hope the coffee didn't burn her.

[Alicia Malone]

No, it wasn't hot.

[Tom Myers]

Bertha, tell me you didn't.

[Alicia Malone]

The dress was hideous, George. How could I let her appear before the whole of New York looking like a cook on her day off? It would have been unkind.

[Tom Myers]

So it was an act of mercy.

[Alicia Malone]

I've got something picked out from two years ago. No one will remember me in it. She'll look lovely.

[Tom Myers]

We're a pretty ruthless pair, aren't we, you and I?

[Alicia Malone]

I don't know what you mean. I like things to be right, but don't you?

[Taissa Farmiga]

Well, there you go. Bertha just plainly admits it. And by the way, that scene takes place in Bertha's bedroom. And we're getting a lot of bedroom scenes this season. I get to see all their Fabulous nightgowns.

[Tom Myers]

It's true. Remember that Carrie Coon told us that they had to record a bunch of bedroom scenes right after she got back from Thailand filming White Lotus, So she was afraid of appearing suntanned actually in those scenes. But this particular exchange was interesting because at first, George seems to find common ground with Bertha, right, with this pretty ruthless pair comment. But then when he tells her that he would have been fine, you know, marrying Gladys off to a banker with a cottage in Newport, Bertha snaps back.

[Alicia Malone]

Go to bed, George, and wake up sensible.

[Tom Myers]

Yaihu. Alicia, how did that line sit with you?

[Alicia Malone]

Oof.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, it's pretty rough. But I think Bertha's just fed up with George at this point, and she's tired of having to explain herself and her position, whether it's right or wrong. But then, before we know it, it is the wedding day and there are flowers everywhere in the Russell's house. Gladys is still in her room in protest. Marian is summoned to try to convince her to go through with the wedding. And I was reading about Consuelo's wedding and she said that on her big. There was a footman stationed right outside her door. Is that right?

[Tom Myers]

Yes. She wrote in her memoir that, quote, I spent the morning of my wedding day in tears and alone. No one came near me. A footman had been posted at the door of my apartment, and not even my governess was admitted, unquote. And like we see in the show, Consuelo didn't have any help from her mother here. Right. Alva had already headed off to the church.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah. And here, when everyone is at the church, Gladys is still in her room, but George goes up to talk to her, basically saying it's too late to back out now. And again, a similar thing happened on Consuelo's wedding day where her father had a talk with her.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. As soon as Alva departed, Willie Kay, Consuelo's father, arrived to accompany her. Consuelo wrote that she felt cold and numb as I went down to meet my father and the bridesmaids who were waiting for me. We were 20 minutes late. For my eyes, swollen with the tears I had wept, required copious sponging before I could face the curious stares that always greet a bride.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Well, here when George is waiting, it's very tense, you know, is Gladys gonna come down or not? And just when hope seems lost, she appears. And the crowd roars while the servants do a hip, hip, hooray, hooray. She's very clapped. And by the way, what a dress she is wearing it is ivory silk. There's flowers everywhere. It looked similar to what I know about Consuelo Vanderbilt's dress. I think we're gonna have to ask Kasha, the costume designer, about that when we talked to her later in the show, whether she was inspired by Consuelo's wedding dress. But, of course, Consuelo didn't get to choose her own dress. Alva chose it. And there were rumors that it cost around $6,000 in 1890s money.

[Tom Myers]

Yes. In fact, the precise cost reported by the New York World was $6720.35, which I rather unscientifically converted on the Internet to about $257,000 today.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Whoa. That's. That's an expensive dress.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah.

[Taissa Farmiga]

You want to rewear that one? And Consuelo's wedding took place at St. Thomas's Church, just like Gladys's. But unlike what we see in the show, there were crowds lining the streets trying to get a glimpse at Consuelo. And reading about it reminded me of a royal wedding. You know, something like Harry and Meghan's wedding.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, nearly royal, but noble. Remember? Not royal, noble.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Oh, okay, so same same, but different. Right.

[Tom Myers]

Well, royals are nobles that rule. Okay, I think I looked that up, too. But in real life. In real life, there were throngs. Throngs of people. The New York Tribune wrote the next day that a crowd, quote, composed of thousands of people of all grades, mostly women, blocked Fifth Avenue before and after the wedding, unquote. And that it required 200 policemen to hold them back.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Wow. Insane. So Mrs. Astor was at Consuelo's wedding. She was also here at Gladys wedding, reeling about a blind item in the paper about her daughter, Charlotte Drayton. Charlotte's husband challenged her lover to a duel. So how does this compare to the real story? Was there actually a duel that happened?

[Tom Myers]

There was a duel that was threatened. In 1892, Mrs. Astor's daughter, Charlotte Drayton, was allegedly having an affair with a man named Hallett Barrow. Right. Who we saw two episodes ago. Now, the previous fall, the Draytons had moved to London, and a couple of months later, Mr. Borrow moved to London as well. Charlotte's husband hired detectives, and Drayton himself, her husband busted into a London hotel room where he caught them lunching together. Okay, so this did indeed lead her husband, Mr. Drayton, to challenge Burrow to a duel, which he turned down. But the whole thing was covered in great detail, including all of the dueling correspondences in the New York sun in March of 1892.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Interesting. Okay, well, let's leave that for a minute. We'll return to the wedding soon. But right now we need to talk about Ada because, Tom, you were right. Mrs. Bowers, cryptic words about knowing someone who could help Ada talk to Luke one final time did turn out to be a reference to the spiritualism movement.

[Tom Myers]

That's right. And these terms can get a little bit confusing because we are not talking about people who are, quote, spiritual. Right. We're talking about this spiritualism movement which gained popularity in the 19th century and it believed that it was possible to communicate with the dead. Right. And that messages could be sent between the human and spirit worlds by mediums and through seances. And, you know, many prominent people at the time believed in spiritualism, including Queen Victoria and Mary Todd Lincoln. Even Cornelius Vanderbilt believed in mediums and he actually tried to use them to get stock tips from the beyond.

[Taissa Farmiga]

That doesn't surprise me at all.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Well, Ada is holding her session with a medium in her dining room. And the medium is Madame Dashkova, played by Bum Ba da Ba Andrea Martin. She's a legendary comedic actress in film and television. And also, Tom, she is a two time Tony award winner.

[Tom Myers]

She's incredible. Love her. In Only Murders in the Building. Yes. And of course, I saw her several times in the 2013 revival of Pippin in New York as Pippin's trapeze loving and swinging grandmother. It was just fabulous. Love her. It's so fun to see her playing Madame Dushkova, which is a take on the real life Helena Blavatsky, who was known as Madame Blavatsky. She was an incredible person. She was the most famous spiritualist in New York in the 1870s. So this is going to be very interesting. Will become interesting, hopefully. But because in today's episode, before anything really can happen, Agnes stor into the dining room.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah. She is quite rude, but very upset and does seem to have her sister's best interests at heart. She says that Ada is grieving, vulnerable and suggestive.

[Tom Myers]

Agnes is mad.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah.

[Tom Myers]

Did you notice the way that she, like, ripped back the curtains?

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah. I was worried she was going to pull them down.

[Tom Myers]

She told Mrs. Bauer. Looked like she would have rather been anywhere else in the world, but trapped in there. Once Agnes is alone with her sister, she says something that really underscores, I think, the friction that existed between spiritualism and mainstream religion when she notes that, quote, Luke would not approve of this.

[Taissa Farmiga]

I believe in a life after death.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

And so do you.

[Tom Myers]

Yes. But I don't believe in table tapping.

[Alicia Malone]

And crystal balls and any of the other nonsense designed to raise your hopes and part you with your money.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

There are more things in heaven and earth, Agnes, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Ada just really wants to connect with Luke again. But how did people in the 1880s view this kind of paranormal activity? Psychics, spiritualism.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, but I think that the story here is tapping into something notable, Alicia. People during this period, really, I mean, you have to remember people had lived through so many game changing scientific breakthroughs. Right. So couldn't there also be spiritual breakthroughs? Right. Wasn't it possible also to be a church going Christian and also be open to the idea that there was more out there that wasn't yet understood? I think that's where Ada is. I think Ada sees Madame Dashkova as a kind of guide to that world. But of course, Agnes sees her as a, quote, charlatan.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, well, let's leave that for now and go back to Peggy. Actually, let's go over to Newport because she is still in Newport. And despite Mrs. Kirkland's obvious misgivings about the Scots, they are all invited over to the Kirklands for some iced tea. Of course, Mrs. Kirkland immediately makes her views known about Peggy'. She calls the article that Peggy wrote about the south an angry and violent subject for a woman to write about.

[Tom Myers]

And when Peggy says, well, somebody has to write about it. Mrs. Kirkland has this kind of like amazing sneer, you know, when she says, certainly, but not a young lady, it's really like, wow, her face. They are. They are not hitting it off on like any subject in the same for women's suffrage, you know. But really, to top it all off, I think the most awkward moment was when Mrs. Kirkland explained that she will attend Peggy's talk because, well, anytime my.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Son is so taken with a body.

[Alicia Malone]

I'm bound to be curious.

[Tom Myers]

There is just nothing nice about the way that that was phrased.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah. And the way she used the word body too. I thought that was a very interesting choice of words. But the Kirklands do come to hear Peggy speak. And Peggy is talking all about the new discriminatory laws that are going to affect, which from what I understand, included the Jim Crow laws.

[Tom Myers]

That's right. So many rights had been gained by black Americans during the Reconstruction era that immediately followed the Civil War. But by the late 1870s, there were new laws that were being passed throughout the south that enforced really widespread racial segregation and introduced new things like poll taxes to really suppress the black vote and to diminish their political power. So Peggy here is talking about how the rights of African Americans were actually being, at that moment, rolled back.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, and Peggy is speaking up to make everyone aware of the repercussions of these laws. But Mrs. Kirkland, once again, just can't help herself. After Dorothy shares that Arthur has returned to Brooklyn for work.

[Alicia Malone]

She says, but he's not a Newport man, is he? Not like us. His history is so very different from ours. My husband is an honorable man, a.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

Business owner, and a proud husband and father. How different is that than you?

[Tom Myers]

It's the same. And my wife would agree. Newport is not the center of everyone's world. Elizabeth.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Oh, dear. I mean, it does seem like Mr. Kirkland is really trying to smooth things over.

[Tom Myers]

Yes, but every time he tries to smooth, she just keeps talking, Right. She says that, you know, she can't pretend to understand Peggy's choice of subjects. But you spoke. Well, I mean, it's like boom, boom, boom. It's just so hard to watch. Then, you know, just kind of with that frosty smile, she just kind of leaves and leaves behind Peggy and Dorothy and Peggy's Aunt Athena just fuming. And I think that it's at this moment that Peggy now understands why her parents had been, shall we say, less than enthusiastic about the Kirklands.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, exactly. And there's just so much happening in this one episode because we also have to talk about Jack and Larry. In the previous episode, they met with a clockmaker named Mr. Weston, but he was unsure about Jack's invention. In this episode, they are summoned to another meeting with Mr. Weston, and Jack is quite nervous about this meeting they do.

[Tom Myers]

And Jack is all dressed up in that new suit again for this meeting with Mr. Weston. Mr. Eldridge, by the way, there were actual clockmakers in England by the names of Ralph Weston and John Eldridge. Couldn't find any in New York, but I found them in England. But these. These men sort of interrupt Larry as he's pitching to them to tell them that they're ready to buy the whole thing, lock, stock and barrel. And then they just start throwing out numbers. Before we answer, may we know how much you are offering? We were thinking of three or four. We cannot go higher. I'm afraid you must. We were hoping for six.

[Taissa Farmiga]

I rewatched this moment several times just to watch Jack's face when he realizes that 6 means $600,000.

[Tom Myers]

And he says, what? Yeah, just like that. Jack will have $300,000 to his name, which would have been an outrageous sum of money again. It's not easy to put $1884 into $2025. But I found an online calculator I used to estimate, and it said that a payment of $300,000 in 1884 would be something like a payment in 2025 of $96 million.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Wow. Wow.

[Tom Myers]

So, yeah, imagine Jack would suddenly be kind of like a tech bro today. Just like a nice one.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yes. Yes, exactly. And now he has more money than Agnes, even. And so Jack, understandably feels nervous about sharing his news with the downstairs staff. Reveal the amount to Mrs. Bauer, and she drops her mixing bowl with her bread dough in shock.

[Tom Myers]

Once it all kind of sinks in, I think that we see that Mrs. Bauer is extremely proud of Jack. Right?

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah.

[Tom Myers]

But they agree in that moment to keep it a secret. It's actually a little bit sad because he wants to stay on. He doesn't want anything to change. I've never had a home before this one. Not a real home.

[Alicia Malone]

Then this must be our secret.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah. This is quite a sad moment because you understand why Jack sees this as his home and doesn't want to leave it. But let's leave him for a minute because we gotta go back to the wedding day. As we heard at the very start of this podcast, Ada is the one who stirs the pot with Mrs. Astor, which was quite a surprise, asking Agnes if there was something in the papers they had wanted to ask Mrs. Astor about.

[Tom Myers]

We are back to Aunt Ada's colossal flub. Yes. I mean, you know it's bad when Oscar Van rhin and Ward McAllister are.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Trying to cover up for you here at the wedding. Ward McAllister is by Mrs. Astor's side, and as we heard, he vows to only say nice things about everyone from now on. And Monica is also there with her new dress lent by Bertha, and she remains unsure about the whole shebang. She's doesn't know whether it's all gonna turn out well.

[Tom Myers]

And George, sitting in the carriage with his daughter, just must feel like he has no control at all. I think Consuela's father, Willie Kay, probably felt as well, because in both cases, the mothers had taken care of everything and the daughters knew what had to happen next. Dear Father, I love you, but as.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

You said earlier, we're past the point of no return.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Oh, it's. It's grim. And that's happening outside, while inside, Lady Sarah says to the duke, just try not to laugh.

[Tom Myers]

Which was a particularly striking and, like, mean little dig, if you ask me.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah.

[Tom Myers]

By the way, the real Duke of Marlborough did have a best man present. His cousin Ivor Guest was there and he was also joined at the wedding by the British ambassador. But Consuelo, like Gladys, was really late and everyone did wait. And Alva was noticeably impatient. Just as we see Bertha impatient. Right. Wondering where her daughter was and praying that her plan had not gone awry. And then here in the show, suddenly Gladys arrives.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, and she walks down the aisle. The tears are flowing. I really like the point of view shot of the guests seen through Gladys veil because they all look bit shocked when they see her crying. And I'm guessing to achieve this POV shot, they must have put a veil over the camera and then walked the camera down the aisle. So that's what the actors were really looking at. But the looks of shock from the guests are reminiscent of what I've read about Consuelo Vanderbilt's wedding, where she said she was happy to have a veil to hide behind.

[Tom Myers]

Well, and the real life Duke of Marlborough later said that when Consuelo pulled back her veil, he immediately saw that she looked, quote, much troubled. Which I think kind of sums up how Gladys looks here.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Definitely. And at Gladys wedding, the priest's words about obeying and eternal damnation makes it all feel quite ominous. But Bertha, of course, she's overjoyed. Her tears are of the happy variety. And once again she has triumphant. What a triumph for Mrs. Russell.

[Alicia Malone]

Strange, really.

[Taissa Farmiga]

And you think that three years ago.

[Alicia Malone]

None of us ever heard of her?

[Tom Myers]

I love it. It's the same kind of what a triumph comment that Mrs. Astor gave in the finale to season one at Bertha's Ball. Remember that? That was a triumph. And this is another one. And in real life, that was also a triumph, as the New York Tribune wrote. Consuelo, quote, entered the church as Ms. Vanderbilt soon after noon and made her exit later as the Duchess of Marlborough.

[Taissa Farmiga]

And here Gladys exits as the Duchess of Buckingham. And they immediately set sail. The Duke wants to get the uncomfortable and embarrassing wedding night out of the.

[Tom Myers]

Way straight away, which happens off camera because we are given a lovely final image.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, that's right. We see New York City and the new Brooklyn Bridge in the porthole as Gladys sails away for an unknown life.

[Tom Myers]

Epic. Alicia and I are going to catch our breath and then we'll be right back with our interviews with Taissa Farmiga and Kasha Walika Memone. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find Options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Will you at least come down to say hello?

[Taissa Farmiga]

I don't think so.

[Alicia Malone]

You must come down eventually.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Or what?

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

You'll dress me by force and drag me to the church in chains?

[Tom Myers]

Actually, now that Bertha thinks about it, that might be a good plan. Welcome back to the official Gilded Age podcast. I am Tom Meyers, joined by Alicia Malone.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yes. And, Tom, you and I were very lucky that we got to speak with Taissa Famiga, who plays Gladys. All about this episode. We did this, this through a virtual junket, which means that we were at home looking like we do. Taissa was at a junket with professional lighting. She looked amazing. So here is our interview with Taissa Famiga. It's lovely to see you again. And you know, Gladys really goes on an emotional rollercoaster this season.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

Telling me.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, when you first got the scripts for season three, what were your thoughts?

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

I was lucky that I got to have a call with Julian and David Crockett right before they sent any scripting. I was just curious, like, what Gladys arc would be. And I got a little bit of insight into it. And it's funny because at the beginning of the season, episode one, I think Gladys is a bit on her high horse. You know, she's feeling confident. She's gained her own personal confidence, and I think she feels like she has the support of her. Of her father, she has the support of her brother, and she feels like she could follow her heart, which is a very empowering feeling. Little does she know that is not going to be an easy path forward.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, definitely not. And one of the questions we have this season is whether Bertha is doing all of this for Gladys or for herself. Do you have thoughts on that?

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

That's actually a beautiful question because for me, one of the biggest questions this season is is it selflessness or selfishness that is actually motivating me just for the characters in general and for Bertha, you know, if I have to look through her eyes, I can understand why she's doing what she's doing from an outside perspective, From Gladys perspective, it sucks. For me, happiness is feeling content in the moment. For Bertha, happiness is the plan coming together. But for Gladys, it's just, I want to. I want to be happy. Should be as simple as that.

[Tom Myers]

We see that Gladys has this special relationship with her father. And, you know, in the real life story, Consuelo I mean, she may have had a good relationship with her father, but her parents were divorced at this point, you know, and her father was kind of not even there.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

He didn't have influence in the way that George has influence. Although actually, does George have influence? Because Gladys ends up in the situation she's in, despite the fact that he said that he would prevent this situation. But in the end, it breaks his heart, but he still chooses Bertha's side. One thing I actually think that's very beautiful about George's love for his daughter is that he feels immense guilt for having to encourage her. I mean, he does say, like, if you're gonna say no, say no. And then Gladys, of course, is wishy washy because you don't know what to say or what's the right decision. And when you have a, you know, how many hundreds of people in society expecting something of you. And it's kind of hard to be individualistic in that time and take a stand and be like, I'm gonna go.

[Taissa Farmiga]

For what I want.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

So she kind of goes with the wave of it. But marriage was a. It was a contract. It was a business negotiation at the time. So with the Duke, I think George does Gladys a really wonderful favor by. He gives the Duke more money, which is why the Duke accepts to marry her. But George puts that money in Gladys's pocket. The allowance goes to Gladys. And the Duke, of course, is a bit upset, but George is like, tilling the soil and watering the soil to plant a seed for partnership. Because if the money went straight into the Duke's pocket, like, there's no need to engage with Gladys, really. This is an arranged marriage. You know, the fact that the Duke has to rely on his new wife and foster a relationship that is at the hand of George. And I think that was the last beautiful thing George did, considering he didn't stand up and, like, remove Gladys from this arranged marriage.

[Taissa Farmiga]

In episode four, we see the big wedding day and Gladys is not happy about it. But what about you as an actress, getting to film a wedding?

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

Well, I filmed a few at weddings. I think my very first scene as an actress was a wedding scene. My first scene was actually me, six months pregnant, vomiting in a toilet on my wedding night. And then we filmed the wedding scene a few days later. I've done a few of those. I've had my own wedding and real life divorce now. So it's. I've done a whole array of it. For me, the biggest thing I love is the ensemble scene. We never get to see each other Work with each other because there are so many different households. The upstairs, the downstairs, across the street, down the block. So the moments that we get to be together is the best. One of the first moments this season where we had the ensemble cast together was Gladys. Wedding. It was kind of a disappointment for me as Taissa because my whole mood and energy for the day was very somber. I mean, I don't know why she wasn't happy on her wedding day, but Gladys was. Behind the veil, was just like tears pouring down her face. So everybody was like, huh, okay, Taissa's preparing. Let's not, let's not. Let's not bother her. When I'm here, like, crying in the corner, and they say, rolling. And for me to get into it, I'm in the corner and I'm just wailing.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Sounds exhausting.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

And also, I had this, like 10 foot train of a wedding gown, like, attached to the wedding gown. I couldn't walk anywhere. At one point, they put it in, like, a Zara tote bag for me so I could, you know, walk around and go get my own coffee because I like to be, you know, self sufficient.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Well, tell us about the wedding dress. How did you work with Kasha on that particular look?

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

Honestly, I am a mannequin. You know, a lot of some of the actors have opinions, but, I mean, when you have someone who is such a master of their craft, like, I go in and I say, just put it on me. Kashya made a beautiful. Designed a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful dress. I think it's like the most intense thing I've ever worn in 30 years of life. It took. We timed it. It took 20. It was like 23 minutes and 40 seconds to get the whole outfit on. So many tiny little buttons and snaps and, like, the lace. It was insane because the wedding scene is what? It's like maybe 15 minutes of screen time, but it's like seven days of filming. Getting married seven times. I don't recommend it.

[Tom Myers]

It's pretty intense.

[Taissa Farmiga]

While crying.

[Tom Myers]

How many times did you literally walk down the aisle?

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

Great question. I would say at least 25, 30 times.

[Tom Myers]

Oh, my gosh. Wow.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

And the weight of this. The train was insane. We had all the bridesmaids come and hold it because I'm like, I can't walk. The way it tugs on the lower back. You really. My core. I feel it was like my workout for the week. I had a six pack afterwards. I should thank Kasha, actually.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. You see the bridesmaids carrying it right behind you. There's a great Overhead shot as you're walking down.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

We had so many rehearsals to set this up, because obviously, on the day when you're filming, like, money burns quick, you know, light's going down. We have to. We have to film. So in prep, we did a bunch of rehearsals for this just to navigate, like, how to walk down the aisle. It sounds simple, right? But it's not.

[Tom Myers]

You mentioned. It's also such a heartbreaking scene, you know, because we don't really want you to get married. The audience doesn't want Gladys to get married. And we see that Gladys is crying as you're walking down the aisle. And obviously that was not. That's shot from your perspective through the veil. What was that shoot like?

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

Honestly, like, even you talking about it right now, the flashbacks I'm having in my. In my mind, I can feel the emotions rising very easily because the POV shot, like, we. You filmed that, obviously, but I experienced that. And the rest of the cast, like, the members that I like. I love these people. We've been filming. We've known each other for five years. We've been filming the show for five years. And to see them in the audience when it's supposed to be a joyous moment. So everybody's faces start with, like, elation. You know, everybody's happy for Gladys. Like, oh, it's the big wedding day. So you see everyone's smiles, and then once they see as. Like, as I'm passing, the smiles all fade. And you see their eyes recognize that, like, oh, she really doesn't want this. And I remember seeing Larry's face. Harry, who plays Larry, my brother. And it was so heartbreaking for me just to see him be so sad based like. Like, you know, it's like. It's like a human domino of emotions.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah. Tell us about working with Ben Lamb, who plays Hector, the Duke. What has it been like to.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

I hate that guy.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah. To create this relationship with him.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

Ben's an amazing guy, like, genuinely. He's super intellectual and also really silly and funny. And our just, like, chemistry as friends is very nice. It's been super easy to fall into it. It's nice to have a love interest with someone who you actually, like, would go grab a coffee with. You know what I mean?

[Tom Myers]

Well, in this episode, you know, leading up to the marriage, I mean, we see Gladys look pretty miserable, look pretty sad, alone. Marian comes over and tries to talk her into it, tries to get her to eat something. Is Ms. Gladys gonna come down the stairs or not? You know, there's a whole Buildup.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

I like the suspense.

[Tom Myers]

Right. It's very suspenseful. Is there a tiny part of Gladys, by the time that she's walking down the aisle that might just be a little bit excited about becoming a duchess? It's a big deal.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

I think it's zero percent, to be totally honest with you. At least what I was feeling in that moment was zero percent. I really don't think she gives a shit about the duchess title. It's really, for me, that's Bertha's plan. Gladys, I think all she's thinking in the moment is how she wishes she would have run off and eloped with Billy Carlton sooner. You know, duchess is, I think, the farthest thing on her mind. But what's beautiful is later in the season, Gladys learns, she starts to understand her mother's perspective about how to attain freedom, and she dips her toes into that little pool of power. And it's really fun to experience that through Gladys.

[Taissa Farmiga]

I mean, we've really seen Gladys grow up over this season. What has it been like for you to portray a character as she grows up? We've seen you grow up, too.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

Yes. Honestly, no, it's beautiful. I think that was the thing I was most excited about for even when season two came around, because I'd done multiple seasons of a TV show, American Horror Story, but there wasn't the connection of playing the same character immediately after. One year later and you're playing the next season. It's different characters, different stories. This is the first time when I came back for Gladys Season 2, that I got to relive a character and pick up from where she last was and then grow. And at that point, you kind of know the character better than. Not better than Michael Angler, but you know, it almost better than the directors and writers. And you kind of get to just live and experience and you know, what the emotional arc is better than what the advice they want to give you. Obviously, you always have to, you know, pay respect, and you want to create the scene together, but. But it's incredible to just grow with someone. You know, you always want to put a piece of yourself in the painting.

[Taissa Farmiga]

For you personally, what would you love to see for Gladys? Would you love to see her having more of a voice?

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

Bertha's such an influence in Gladys life. No matter how much Gladys wants to push back against that power, you know, the thing that Gladys craves the most is freedom, especially from her mother's grasp. Gladys realizes for her to have that power, that freedom that she craves, it's actually bringing her closer to her mother than she ever could have imagined. I think it's just like, I'm excited for Gladys to have that bit of the Bertha ambition or just like, you know, she's got that Bertha sass and she's happy to do what she wants. And I think Gladys has taken. She's gotten a taste of that at the middle end of season three. I like to see where that goes when she, you know, happy on her throne as a duchess.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Absolutely.

[Tom Myers]

I can't wait to see that. You were talking about growing as an actress and being with the same, you know, growing into your role, growing into that set, into the whole space. I remember from season one, you talking about learning all of the manners and the rules around dining and just how much fun those dining scenes were to shoot. Challenging in their own way. Have you grown used to all of that as well?

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

I. I still love a dining scene. Like, I love to eat. I constantly am eating all day. So when I get to get paid to eat. I think Carrie Coon agrees. It's one of the better days of filming. The etiquette now is sort of ingrained in me. When you have the corset on, you're sitting in the chair and the, you know, the butler pushes it or the. The footman pushes the chair, and you kind of are just like, ah, okay, this. Sometimes, like, with the soup, like, you're supposed to spoon away and, like, dab. And then sometimes I mess that up.

[Taissa Farmiga]

But.

[Tom Myers]

But it's pretty ingrained at this point in this episode. We also. Or in the previous episode, I mean, I have to ask you about this moment when there's the big painting reveal and you're standing underneath the portrait and you're fidgeting with the dreaded pearl necklace. Tell us about that scene. And I'm just curious, was it already broken? Did you really have to yank it?

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

Every tiny little detail is so meticulously, like, sorted out in advance. We had rehearsals of this necklace breakage. And also, you can't bend your arms in the. Get my hand up to the necklace. I think we were in the fitting and I was telling Kasha. I was like, hold on. I have to be able to. I have to be. How do I get my. To my hand with the gloves and the thing. But then we did the sleeveless dress.

[Tom Myers]

At that point, it looked very natural. You looked very uncomfortable. Thank you.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

I was.

[Tom Myers]

You were struggling.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

But that. The moment is just. Gladys is. She doesn't have any control. She feels it all just, like, slipping out of her. You Know, as I said at the beginning, the first episode, she feels like she has. There's like a semblance of she has control and power over her own life. Like, her dad's on her side. She's gonna be able to make the decision she wants. And all of a sudden, Bertha takes it, you know, takes that. Takes that right away from her, and she doesn't know what to. There's nothing to grasp onto.

[Tom Myers]

We thank you for your time and for being back on the podcast.

[Kasha Walika Maimone]

My pleasure. My pleasure, guys. Thank you so much for having me.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Well, Taissa is just lovely. We've spoken to her before, but it was so fun to get to delve into her big episode. Gladys wedding. And something I hadn't considered, Tom is just long it takes to shoot just a scene like the wedding. I mean, she was saying it took a week and the dress got very heavy to wear. I love all the anecdotes she had.

[Tom Myers]

About that, that she was literally carrying it around in a Zara bag. That is. It paints such a picture. I love that juxtaposition of 2025 and 1884. So much fun talking to Taissa. And we are not done because now we get to go even deeper into that scene and into all of those amazing dresses. We are going to speak with costume designer Kasha Walika Maimone.

[Taissa Farmiga]

So, Kasia, it's lovely to talk to you again. And I always love seeing both me and Tom love seeing the incredible work that you and your team do on this show. And I imagine now by season three, you must have such a shorthand with the people you work with and also a portfolio of references that just lives in your head.

[Alicia Malone]

It's definitely this privilege of working in episodic TV that we have the chance of learning from previous seasons and building upon the knowledge of what we know. It is a feast working on this job. It's a privilege.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah, you definitely feel that. And it is an extravaganza, as you say. But I imagine you also have to strike the balance between looking amazing on screen and also being historically accurate. Is that correct?

[Alicia Malone]

Absolutely. But, you know, there is always a little bit of a challenge with the historical accuracy because it's inspired by real people and real events, but nevertheless transformed for the needs for our storytelling and our characters. It all starts from historical research. It all starts from a very strict historical framework that keeps expanding and being manipulated slightly towards the storyline and towards the needs of each of the characters trajectory as we are doing it in our story.

[Tom Myers]

Well, and the big point of the Story leading up to today's episode, Episode four, of course, has been Gladys wedding to the Duke. There are great parallels to something that really happened in history with Consuelo's marriage to the Duke. And we're talking about that a lot on the podcast. Can you talk a little bit about any historical research that happened on your side? Did you look into Consuelo's designs? Did that influence any kind of design choices?

[Alicia Malone]

Absolutely. We studied it to death. But Consuelo's wedding happened in 1895, which is about 12 years later than our storyline, which is a completely different silhouette in fashion. That was a major transformation of what was happening in the reality, in the historical reality of costumes. We looked at so many weddings from that period and were inspired by so many other weddings that would reflect the status of the wedding that we are creating for Gladys and the Duke. We felt that it was necessary to reflect the spirit of this wedding rather than the exact details because we were in a completely different historical dateline. So you really try to find the language of what is going to create that visual feast for us.

[Tom Myers]

And it comes through. It really comes through. I never had thought about that before then. I mean, we've talked about the fact that Consuela was married in 95 and this is more than a decade before that in the other storylines. But I never thought about the fact that that time difference certainly has an effect on the fashion and the look.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes, very much so. By the 90s, it was a very different, very different vocabulary in the costumes, which, you know, I'm pushing it continuously to that towards the 90s in our story because we do know that Bertha and Gladys are very much influenced by French fashion. So you will see in this season that I step a little bit outside of the silhouette. The small shoulders, super fitted bodice, still very much corseted with a bustle silhouette. But I do look for the influences of French fashions for garments for Bertha and Gladys particularly. But there is really fun tension between a few worlds that is happening in this current season. That is for sure fun to play with costumes and creating this tension as the newness and classical traditional values meet on the screen.

[Taissa Farmiga]

It's amazing when you see Taissa walk down the stairs and you see everyone holding the train and the veil. There's so much that goes into that one dress, let alone the bridesmaids. But focusing on Gladys wedding dress, can you approximate how many people it took to make the dress or how long it took to make that dress?

[Alicia Malone]

I think it took about three months to develop that concept of that dress, there was definitely a lot of study of where to find that language and how to acknowledge Consuela's wedding and figure out how we're going to make this dramatic, beautiful dress. We kept adding flowers to the veil until the last minute. There was hundreds and hundreds of flowers. There was army of people. Adding the flowers also was collaboration with our millionaires who were creating the veil and combining the two elements of the train and the veil and combining the geometry of the two elements with this giant, long train that we had to actually figure out how on earth is going to be carried in this aisle. Because we realized at some point that we had to make sure that the width of the train matches the dimension of the church. And we collaborate with Bob Shaw, our production designer, to make sure that they will fit between all those flower ornaments while Gladys walks down the aisle, while our bridesmaids with their extravagance of dresses, fit within the meandering corridor of the flowers and the aisle and come to the altar.

[Taissa Farmiga]

So beautiful. And I mean, the wedding itself is a big scene. Not only do you have the bride or the bridesmaids, but you also have all of the main cast and the background extras, and they're all in their afternoon wedding finery themselves. So what goes into dressing all of those extras for you and your team?

[Alicia Malone]

I mean, there's so many different stages because early on, at the beginning of the process, design process, we know that it's necessary to create a total look. We knew that it's afternoon wedding. We knew that the glass is going to be in white and the bridesmaids. And at the same time, it needed to feel like this extraordinary festive event when people dress for it. So I did use a bunch of stocks from previous season from the Easter party, so it was very balanced. And the way we placed all the new dresses versus the repeated dresses from previous season, there's a lot of mapping out and strategies and of course, it's supported by extraordinary team of people. There was probably by the end of the wedding, there was, I think, about 200 of our. Of our team that was working on execution. That's separate from the makers, that is the people who are fitting, altering and starting dressing people. Probably two o' clock in the morning on the day off, because it takes that long between hair and makeup and placing the hats and corsets and bustles and it's a feast. But the moment when you see it walking, like when we all walked into the church and saw just there's so much satisfaction from that moment of experiencing it, that when it comes to life, that like, you feel that your creative process is being reflected.

[Taissa Farmiga]

It's really fun to see all of the, Well, a lot of the main cast together in the one room. And it made me consider how each of the characters has their own personal look. I'm curious, now that you're into a third season and the actors are very familia with their characters, do they want to get involved more in the look of their characters?

[Alicia Malone]

Always inspired, endlessly inspired by our actors. They come with such a great grand Personas that inform us so much. They inform the designs, they develop the characters that we have, what's on the page. But then at the same time, the actors bring their whole world to the exploration of who those people are and. And it keeps growing.

[Tom Myers]

Well. And of course, this season we get to meet some new characters too. There are a few we could talk about here. And each one of them seems to have their own look as well. By episode four here we have met, of course, Mrs. Kirkland. And looking back at her dresses and her hats and the way that she is dressed, you realize that she stands out in the scenes. She looks. She has a very specific look. Can you talk about that look that you've given her?

[Alicia Malone]

It's a continuous collaboration with our researcher, Susanna Gilbert, who keeps building the visual library over and over and over again. Because we have about more than 40,000 images from the period of paintings and photographs and sketches and magazines that we continuously keep diving into. But a lot of the times that photography from the period keeps feeding those elements of character and kind of veer towards the elements from the real people of what they represent. And, you know, humanity keeps delivering.

[Tom Myers]

And, you know, when I was looking at Mrs. Kirkland, I just kind of. Now I don't have the terminology straight here, but it seemed more conservative. A little fussier patterns, a fussier, tighter look. You know, it was old fashioned. That's the word I'm looking for.

[Alicia Malone]

I think you nailed it. That's exactly. I'm thrilled to hear it because that's exactly what I was going for. So I'm like, yes, perfect.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Well, what was it like to create the look for Monica, Bertha's sister? Because we hear that she is not fashionable. So you kind of have to create something that isn't in fashion.

[Alicia Malone]

It was fun because it was so clearly on page. That character was described so well. Like, you know, she reveals a part of Bertha's history that we have not seen. And I think that with Monica, you know, she's a little bit stunned being in the world of Bertha. But I also wanted to create this clash between those two worlds and represents this like diving into the roots of Bertha, where she comes from, and for us to realize that this is quite a journey that happened for Bertha. And it was written on the page that Monica is borrowing dresses from Bertha and wearing them like that. We reused a dress that was worn by Bertha at Newport for the wedding.

[Tom Myers]

For Monica, when you were just talking about Bertha, it just made me also think about in this episode, you know, she tells her sister, oh, well, I said, let's see, there's a morning dress and then this dress and then that dress. She goes through three or four different dresses a day. That just makes me wonder how many dresses have been made for Bertha and where are they? Do you ever reuse address that we see in an episode? Is this common to reuse them or are we not seeing them as well more than once?

[Alicia Malone]

Well, we do reuse them a little bit. Bertha is a person who would continuously make new stuff that's part of this language of impressing the neighbors, impressing the society. And I think it's such an expense that. And also she has an unlimited amount of money. That's just part of the vocabulary of Bertha, that she has the means to do it. But with Bertha, yes, we make insane amount of dresses for her. They are all in our studio. And unlike the household of Agnes where we knew, we discussed it with Julian Fellowes, that those ladies would be repeating the dresses. Part of the vocabulary, repeating the dresses. We map it out of a. For each character we map out, what are we seeing, how long we seeing. We have, like charts of screen time. And so we do know that how long or short sometimes the dresses lived on the camera. So we know which ones are safer for us to use because they are not as strongly embedded in the memories of previous users. So it's a very strategized process.

[Tom Myers]

And I know this is impossible to answer, but I might as well just try sticking to Bertha and her dozens of dresses. Do you have a favorite?

[Alicia Malone]

No.

[Tom Myers]

Safe.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Well, Kasha, congratulations to you and your team for another wonderful season. And thanks so much for talking to us once again on this podcast.

[Alicia Malone]

Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

[Tom Myers]

Wow, Alicia, it is just always so interesting to talk to Kasha. She's so insightful and she always brings up things that I had never thought about, like the fact that, yes, the show is reflecting something that took place 10 years after the timeline of the show. And she has to kind of wrestle with that in terms of costuming, come up with a solution, which, of course, she has.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yeah. There is so much of a balance to be found between making it historically accurate, but also making it look beautiful on screen. And I also love hearing about how they reuse costumes. I'm just hoping that after the show is done, and we hope that's not for a long time, that the costumes go on display somewhere. It sounds like, like Gladys's wedding dress should be in a museum.

[Tom Myers]

I'm pulling for the Met.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Yes.

[Tom Myers]

Just saying. Just putting it out there.

[Taissa Farmiga]

That would be full circle. Okay, Tom, that's it for us. That's another episode of the official Gilded Age podcast done. But make sure you watch new episodes of the Gilded Age on Sundays and then watch or listen to this companion podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. Bye.

[Tom Myers]

Bye. Bye. Hi. This has been the official Gilded Age Podcast, written, hosted, and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers.

[Taissa Farmiga]

The podcast is a production of HBO in collaboration with Pod People For Pod People.

[Tom Myers]

Our supervising producer is Rebecca Chasson, associate producer Sam Gabauer, and our video editor is Susannah Vasquez. Special thanks to Hannah Pedersen and Amy Machado.

[Taissa Farmiga]

Amy. For HBO Podcasts, our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt and associate producer is Erin Kelly.