“My Mind is Made Up” with Louisa Jacobson, Carrie Coon and Morgan Spector, and Sallie Richardson-Whitfield

Summary

Detailed Summary of "My Mind is Made Up" Episode of The Official Gilded Age Podcast

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Official Gilded Age Podcast
• Host/Author: HBO
• Episode: “My Mind is Made Up” with Louisa Jacobson, Carrie Coon, Morgan Spector, and Sally Richardson-Whitfield
• Release Date: August 11, 2025

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Introduction

In the season three finale of The Gilded Age, titled "My Mind is Made Up," viewers are treated to a whirlwind of dramatic events, character developments, and historical nuances. Hosts Tom Myers and Alicia Malone delve deep into the episode’s key moments, providing insightful commentary and exclusive behind-the-scenes perspectives from the cast and crew.

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Episode Recap

Opening Drama: The episode opens with a tense and chaotic scene featuring George Russell being rushed home for emergency surgery after being shot. The handheld camera work amplifies the chaos and urgency, creating an immersive experience for the audience.

• Tom Myers [03:02]: “Oh, yeah, this was already being used, the term robber barons, to describe this new, you know, breed of millionaires who were kind of seen as swindling the public.”

Key Events:

• George’s Shooting and Surgery: George is shot, leading to an intense surgical scene where Dr. Kirkland successfully saves his life without anesthesia, highlighting the perilous medical practices of the era.

  • Louisa Jacobson [04:29]: “But also, not only did that surgery happen without any anesthetic, did you notice that nobody really washed their hands?”

• Relationship Turmoil:

  • Marian and Larry: Marian rescues George, leading to a reconciliation between George and Bertha Russell, but Marian’s relationship with Larry remains strained due to past betrayals.
  • Oscar Van Rhijn and Mrs. Winterton: Oscar schemes a mutually beneficial fake relationship with Mrs. Winterton, reflecting the complex social maneuverings of high society.

• Family Dynamics:

  • Aunt Agnes’s Progress: Agnes is appointed Vice President of the New York Heritage Society, symbolizing her rising status and the shifting power dynamics within the family.
    • Tom Myers [10:36]: “I could not do it without him.”

• Peggy and Dr. Kirkland’s Romance: The episode culminates in a heartfelt proposal from Dr. Kirkland to Peggy, juxtaposed with George and Bertha’s unresolved tensions.

  • Tom Myers [27:07]: “It feels so good to see Peggy finally happy.”

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Myers [05:20]: “I don’t know. I’m just hoping it’s enough to cover a wedding.”
• Morgan Spector [09:06]: “You don’t just marry a man. You marry a life.”

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Character Developments

George Russell:

• Struggles with his relationship with Bertha, especially after his near-death experience.
• Louisa Jacobson [28:37]: “I have to talk about this big scene. Dr. Kirkland arrives...”

Marian:

• Navigates her distrust and complex feelings towards Larry.
• Demonstrates resilience and a desire for autonomy, reflecting the broader themes of women's independence during the era.

Aunt Agnes:

• Elevated to a position of power within the New York Heritage Society, showcasing her influence and the evolving roles of women in society.

Peggy and Dr. Kirkland:

• Their relationship takes a significant step forward with a public marriage proposal, symbolizing hope and new beginnings amidst the turmoil.

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Themes and Historical Context

Medical Practices: The episode highlights the rudimentary and risky medical procedures of the late 19th century, emphasizing the lack of hygiene and anesthesia.

• Tom Myers [04:06]: “By 1884... this was all hands on deck, dirty or not.”

Social Stratification and Racism: The introduction of Dr. Kirkland, a black doctor, underscores the racial tensions and segregation within the professional and social realms of the time.

• Louisa Jacobson [05:31]: “George could have lost a lot of patients...”

Marriage and Independence: Marian’s resistance to marrying for convenience and her pursuit of personal and financial independence reflect the ongoing struggle between love and societal expectations.

Divorce and Scandal: The episode parallels real-life events, such as Charlotte Drayton’s divorce, showcasing the societal backlash against divorced women and the rigid norms governing high society.

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Behind the Scenes with Louisa Jacobson

Interview with Louisa Jacobson: Louisa provides an insider’s view of filming the intense surgery scene, discussing the challenges and emotional toll on the cast and crew.

• Sally Richardson Whitfield [32:21]: “It was really amazing.”

Character Portrayal: Louisa delves into the complexities of portraying Marian, highlighting the character’s emotional turmoil and resilience.

Historical Accuracy: She emphasizes the importance of historical authenticity, drawing parallels between Marian’s experiences and real-life historical figures like Harriet Hubbard Ayer, a pioneering female entrepreneur.

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Interviews with Cast and Crew

Carrie Coon and Morgan Spector:

• Carrie Coon: Discusses directing the dramatic scenes, including the use of handheld cameras to enhance tension.

  • Carrie Coon [50:15]: “It's stunning how our show reflects the times...”

• Morgan Spector: Shares experiences from filming the surgery scene and navigating character relationships.

  • Morgan Spector [43:27]: “We were all a little rattled by what we were seeing.”

Sally Richardson Whitfield:

• Elaborates on the technical aspects of directing intense scenes, such as handling prosthetics and coordinating with the medical consultant.
  • Sally Richardson Whitfield [32:21]: “We had these amazing effects makeup artists...”

Technical Insights: Discussion on the use of slow-motion photography during Peggy’s proposal, aiming to create a fairy-tale-like moment despite historical inaccuracies regarding public proposals.

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Conclusion and Season Finale Insights

The season three finale of The Gilded Age masterfully intertwines personal dramas with historical events, providing a rich tapestry of narratives that reflect the complexities of the era. The podcast episode “My Mind is Made Up” offers listeners an in-depth analysis of pivotal moments, character arcs, and behind-the-scenes efforts that bring the show to life.

Looking Ahead: With season four confirmed, hosts tease upcoming discussions on unresolved storylines and new character developments, promising continued exploration of the societal issues that define the Gilded Age.

Upcoming Bonus Episode: Listeners are invited to join a special bonus episode featuring interviews with key cast members, including Aurora Fane and Kelly O'Hara, to further dissect the season’s highlights and emotional peaks.

Final Thoughts: The collaboration between hosts, cast, and crew in the podcast provides a comprehensive understanding of The Gilded Age, making it an invaluable resource for fans and newcomers alike.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Tom Myers [05:20]: “I don’t know. I’m just hoping it’s enough to cover a wedding.”
• Louisa Jacobson [04:29]: “But also, not only did that surgery happen without any anesthetic, did you notice that nobody really washed their hands?”
• Carrie Coon [50:35]: “We don't do a lot of blood on Gilded, so I thought I'd bring it all in now.”
• Morgan Spector [43:07]: “We never get to do that stuff. It's not the…”

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the "My Mind is Made Up" episode, providing a narrative that is both engaging and informative for listeners seeking a deeper understanding of the content.

Transcript

[Tom Myers]

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[Tom Myers]

Oh, boy. That is George and Bertha ending things in a surprisingly rough spot there at the end of episode eight of season three, the grand finale of the Gilded Age. We are back with the official Gilded Age podcast. I'm Tom Myers from the Bowery Boys Podcast, joined as always by my friend from tcm, Alicia Malone. Hi, Alicia.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Hi, Tom. I feel like I'm just catching my breath after that finale episode. I mean, let's count it. We had an emergency surgery for George. We had an engagement for Peggy. We had two balls.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, two, right? Because one's not enough. Don't forget, there's all of the Larian drama. George leaves Bertha and comes back and leaves again, pretty much all in the same episode. There is so much drama. And we will be talking our way through all of this in episode eight, the very final episode of this season.

[Carrie Coon]

But.

[Tom Myers]

But wait, don't worry, because we will have an additional bonus episode of the podcast released this week. This very week. We're not done yet.

[Louisa Jacobson]

That's right. There's just too much to fit into one podcast episode, especially because today we also have interviews with Louisa Jacobson, who of course plays Marian, the director and executive producer Sally Richardson Whitfield. And you'll hear part two of our chat with Carrie Coon and Morgan Spector, George and Bertha Russell.

[Tom Myers]

So let's get to the recap. This is episode eight of season three, My Mind's Made up, written by Julian Fellows and Sonia Warfield and directed by Sally Richardson Whitfield.

[Louisa Jacobson]

This episode begins in a very dramatic fashion. We see horses in a carriage galloping down the street. Inside the carriage is a bleeding George, Russell and Brinkley, and the camera is head handheld. It's shaky. It's moving. We'll have to ask Sally Richardson Whitfield about directing this because all of that camera work really adds to the tension of the scene.

[Tom Myers]

Oh, yeah, it feels tense. It feels chaotic. You're just catching, you know, glimpses of people on the sidewalk. I think I saw Banister smoking outside. And then, fortunately, he was there, because he hustles over and tells, you know, Bertha that there is a doctor in their house. But he adds, I should tell you, he's colored. She doesn't care. And soon, Dr. Kirkland is over in the Russell house.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah. And it's a very emotional scene. Bertha is crying. Marian is there helping. Blood is being mopped up. I felt a lot of emotion. I felt sorry for George. There was no pain medication. And this whole scene is just heightened and scary.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, I was just tense watching the whole thing. I mean, even when I looked away from my screen, I could still hear it. And those sound effects, Alicia, were vivid. Let's just say we see Dr. Kirkland fishing around and pulling out a bullet there. But then we see George get very stiff. I wasn't sure if he was gonna make it.

[Louisa Jacobson]

I know when it cut back after the surgery, I thought he might have actually died. Luckily, he didn't. It's such a good thing that Dr. Kirkland was there. He knew what to do. He said he had seen plenty of gunshot wounds in his career. But also, not only did that surgery happen without any anesthetic, did you notice that nobody really washed their hands?

[Tom Myers]

That's right. Well, by 1884, I think that surgeons and doctors were washing their hands before surgeries, but not so much the general public. And I doubt in a situation like this where people were just racing to help out, I think that this was all hands on deck, dirty or not. And this is something that we will speak about in more detail in the next episode when we interview Dr. Stanley Burns, who helped as a medical consultant on. On this very scene.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah. And the whole thing is just really terrifying. I mean, the Russell household, the Van Rhijn household, are shocked about what has happened. Peggy is worried about Dr. Kirkland. And later, we see George give him some money to say thank you.

[Tom Myers]

And judging by the look on Dr. Kirkland's face, I'm thinking that that was quite a check. We don't know how much. What do you think?

[Louisa Jacobson]

I don't know. I'm just hoping it's enough to cover a wedding. We'll get to that in a second. But what do you think might have happened to Dr. Kirkland if George Russell had died?

[Tom Myers]

Well, I think it could have been very serious for him, personally and professionally. Remember, we've been talking about how segregated the medical field was at this time, how much discrimination black doctors faced. So Yeah, I think that he could have lost a lot of patients. He could have been in a very bad spot professionally and possibly, you know, even faced violence. So this was very risky for him. And George is right when he says that we need to add courage to your long list of virtues.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, absolutely. He has courage. He has a lot of virtues. Dr. Kirkland, Mrs. Kirkland is very happy that her son saved a captain of indecision history. Although Dr. Kirkland tells her that it's unlikely that he'll have robber barons coming to his office to get help. And when he said the words robber barons, it had me wondering about whether that was a term that was used back in the 1880s or if this was something that was given to them. In hindsight, no.

[Tom Myers]

I think that, yeah, this was definitely already being used, the term robber barons, to describe this new, you know, breed of millionaires who were kind of seen as swindling the public. Right. And perhaps creating monopolies and taking advantage of politicians and corrupt, et cetera. That dates back to an 1870 article that was published in the Atlantic Monthly magazine.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Okay, so that checks out. Of course it does. Not surprised. Anyway, after all of this surgical drama, I mean, Larry is still feeling hurt by Marian calling off their engagement, but George and Bertha are actually now both on board with. With these two reconciling. So, Tom, I guess all Marian had to do was save George's life to get in Bertha's good books.

[Tom Myers]

That's all. That's all she had to do. But seriously. But I was impressed by the way that Marian just got right in there, you know? I mean, she was asked to help out by Dr. Kirkland, and there she was applying pressure. I mean, she was a perfect medical assistant. We got to give her some props for that.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah. She did not hesitate at all. And later we see that she was literally covered in George's blood.

[Tom Myers]

She was. But as far as all of the Larian drama, that's another story that just. That got complicated. I feel like between last episode and this episode, I just kind of got lost a couple times, keeping track of who was mad at who for what.

[Louisa Jacobson]

I know, and I just want them to kiss and make up. Come on, get back together.

[Tom Myers]

But apparently not yet, because they have to, like, unravel this drama, which was so complicated. I actually wrote it down. Let's see. There was a white lie right, by Larry. Then Marian believed Jack, but not Larry, who she was engaged to. She had broken off the engagement, but then he wouldn't take her back. They were both hurt but we know that they love each other, right?

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, I know.

[Tom Myers]

I think it's complicated.

[Louisa Jacobson]

It's so complicated. And I think there are a lot of trust issues here that they need to actually work out together before they can move forward as a couple. Lots to work on.

[Tom Myers]

Well, and while George and Bertha are encouraging Marian not to give up on Larry, Aunt Agnes actually seems to be, shall we say, relieved that Marian is going to be moving on from this family.

[Carrie Coon]

This is about Marian and the man that she loves.

[Tom Myers]

Don't be naive.

[Morgan Spector]

You don't just marry a man. You marry a life. Marian deserves better. Someone from a stable, traditional, well established family.

[Carrie Coon]

That's no guarantee of a happy marriage. When you married Arnold, you had all that.

[Louisa Jacobson]

How did you feel about it?

[Morgan Spector]

I don't remember much.

[Carrie Coon]

Is that what you want for Marian?

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. A little reminder there that Agnes's husband Arnold had come from a good family, but that he had also been an abusive husband.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Exactly. And this fits into the whole overarching theme of this season. Whether it's better to marry for love or to marry for money. Slash power. But also, other big news about Agnes. She's been asked to serve as the vice president of the New York Heritage Society. And I imagine that position would have been quite a big honor for her.

[Tom Myers]

Absolutely. And the real life New York Historical Society did count, you know, New York's leading and oldest families, most prominent families among its leadership roles and on its board of directors. In fact, one of the founding families behind the society was the Stuyvesant family, all the way back in the very early 1800s. So this very much would have been an honor for Agnes, as a descendant of the Livingstons, to serve on the board of directors. But by the way, I also kind of got the vibe that Ada might have given a little contribution to the cause. Did you also get that feeling?

[Louisa Jacobson]

I mean, I think she probably did. She definitely went behind Agnes's back at some point to find out what Mrs. Foster actually wanted. And she must have known that Agnes would want to say yes to this offer, so she orchestrated that whole thing. But anyway, all of this has put Agnes in a really good mood, so much so that she is finally saying, seated her position at the head of the table.

[Morgan Spector]

I think the time has come for you to take the head of the table.

[Carrie Coon]

But you've always.

[Morgan Spector]

You are running the family as well as this house. It is time for you to be at the head.

[Louisa Jacobson]

And Agnes actually winks. Did you see that?

[Tom Myers]

A notable event. Agnes winks. I love this scene. Yeah. And It. You know, it's the kind of thing like Bannister pulling out Ada's chair and her taking her place there. It's the kind of thing that might seem small, but it's actually huge. Right? It has a huge significance. Ada really worked for this. You know, she is not the same Aunt Ada from season one. She has become somebody else who's much stronger and who is thinking about her family. She's taking care of her own sister, and she's paying the bills. Let's not forget. I'm also glad that Marian and Oscar both got to witness that moment. And later, we actually follow Oscar to the opera, where he bumps into Mamie Fish. I thought you didn't like Wagner. Of course not.

[Alicia Malone]

I have impeccable taste.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah. What was that about?

[Tom Myers]

Well, to have us a clever little nod to a operatic drama that was playing out among audiences in New York in the 1880s. There were the sort of Italian and French opera audiences on one side and the German and other operas on the other. And the first season of the Metropolitan Opera in 1883 was mostly in Italian and French, but the second season was mostly in German. So here we are in the second season of the Metropolitan Opera, and Oskar isn't so sure how he feels about. About those German operas. It's a clever little nod to history.

[Louisa Jacobson]

And also, before returning to his box, Oscar bumps into Mrs. Winterton, our favorite. I mean, now she's newly widowed. Oscar is back to his old ways. I mean, his generous side did not last long. And he realizes that a fake relationship between them could be mutually beneficial, shall we say? He promises to get Mrs. Winterton invited to Bertha's ball. And he goes to visit Bertha, which I think is the first time we've seen Oscar and Bertha alone together.

[Alicia Malone]

Might you consider inviting Mrs. Winterton to your ball?

[Morgan Spector]

Heavens, I thought the death of her husband had taken her off the board. What about Mrs. Astor?

[Tom Myers]

Mrs. Astor doesn't favor her, but I.

[Alicia Malone]

Believe your support would be a bastion against that. The day is coming when you will be as strong as Mrs. Aster. Or stronger.

[Morgan Spector]

Very well, Mr. Van Rhijn. I will invite her, But I expect to see Ms. Brooke there as well.

[Louisa Jacobson]

And, of course, Bertha wants something in return.

[Tom Myers]

Right? And she wants Marian to come to her own ball in Newport. Which just had me thinking. Wow. Things have really turned upside down when Bertha Russell is scheming to get Marilyn and Brooke to show up for a ball. Things have changed, Alicia.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Absolutely.

[Tom Myers]

But Oscar, of course, has a scheme of his own. The ultimate scheme, which is that he and Mrs. Winterton can marry. Both of them lead their own private lives in the country at their own country houses and appear together in the city as a couple. And between her money and his connections, well, he says they would have, quote, the world at their feet.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, I'm terrified about what it would mean to have these two together. I mean, this is such an odd couple. I can't wait to see what happens. But let's switch to Jack now, because he is living in his big house, but he still makes time for his old colleagues downstairs. And Bridget comes to visit him, which leads to a very sweet scene, I mean, and also another step in this possible relationship between them.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, this was one of my favorite scenes in this episode. It was just so cute. I mean, remember last scene, you and I were talking about how we were worried about Jack in that big old house on his own, but now with Bridget there, he says that he feels safe, which is kind of a bold thing for him to say. And they kind of quickly move on. It doesn't make her uncomfortable. And next thing you know, they're just kind of, like, huddling across the table, talking to each other and sharing their day together. I found it really moving.

[Louisa Jacobson]

It is moving. It's lovely. And, you know, Bridget doesn't think she should sit, but Jack reminds her that she's not a servant in his house. She's a guest of the master. But if this happened in real life, I imagine it would be hard for a wealthy man like Jack to continue a friendship or even a romance with a servant.

[Tom Myers]

Well, already Jack's sudden shift from being a footman to this wealthy entrepreneur would have been highly, highly unusual. So there's that. So in 1884, then they would have belonged now to two distinctly, you know, different classes. So a relationship between Jack and Bridget would be highly unlikely if he was committed, you know, to living in that new social class of his. But maybe he doesn't care.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, I hope not, because I love to live vicariously through this show and all the different romances. So I can't wait to see more from this possible couple. And also, we get a lovely romance with Peggy and Dr. Kirkland. Well, it starts out quite tumultuous, actually, in this episode because he never got the chance to talk to her before he needed to go and, you know, save George's life. And Peggy and Dorothy are quite giggly when they think about what he could possibly be wanting to talk to her about. They think maybe he's ready to propose. But this scene of Peggy Laughing cuts abruptly to Peggy crying. And she is sitting very far apart from Dr. Kirkland, who is about their relationship because of her past.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. It's suddenly clear to us that it's over, right? It seems to be over. I mean, there's even the ultimate sadness of handing back over his handkerchief. I just loved that scene of mother and daughter. You know, from the top of the stairs, looking down, you just feel Peggy's sadness.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Oh, she is devastated. It is heartbreaking. But Dorothy has her back. When she sees Mrs. Kirkland, she does not hold back. And this is Audrey McDonald and Phylicia Rashad. Just a masterclass in acting. It is uncanny to me how you.

[Carrie Coon]

Can see everyone else's flaws and mistakes.

[Tom Myers]

But not your own. Oh, yeah. We have just been waiting for Audra, or rather Dorothy, to let off some steam on Mrs. Kirkland, and we finally got it. I mean, she is like quoting Bible verses to the pastor's wife here. And it is everything I've been waiting for. Mrs. Kirkland, of course, gets some zingers in of her own. But Dorothy gets the last word and reminds Mrs. Kirkland that she and her family will be attending that ball. Thank you very much.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah. With their heads held high, too. And Mrs. Kirkland also hears all about her meddling from her son and her husband. Dr. Kirkland finally stands up to his own mother and. And Mr. Kirkland puts her in her place with a resounding woman.

[Tom Myers]

Are you taking the liar's side above your wife?

[Louisa Jacobson]

I have a duty to inform and protect our son.

[Alicia Malone]

You have sown calamity and heartbreak. And this is not the first time it stops now.

[Morgan Spector]

I just did what I thought was right.

[Alicia Malone]

For whom?

[Tom Myers]

Another pretty intense scene. And, you know, the same words could have been said by George to Bertha. I realized while watching this that. That Mrs. Kirkland and Bertha have some things in common. Right. They've both been trying to control their children's futures, only to have their husbands and their children turn on them. So an interesting parallel there. But I did like how the Reverend Kirkland gave William some advice here, some good fatherly advice. Patting his heart, you know, and telling him, follow this. Follow this.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah. And we will follow that to the balls. Because we have not just one ball to end this season. No, no, no. We have two. Bertha's ball and the ball that Peggy does attend, both happening in Newport.

[Tom Myers]

Yes. First up, Bertha's ball. We see Bertha back in New York visiting Mrs. Astor, who is joined by her daughter, Charlotte. Charlotte, who is rumored to be having this affair with Mr. Barrow. Well, Bertha comes over to tell Mrs. Astor that in fact, Aurora Fane will be invited to her big ball in Newport. And Mrs. Astor is aghast.

[Morgan Spector]

If you receive them, it will become.

[Louisa Jacobson]

An epidemic, and I cannot be a part of that.

[Tom Myers]

Even though what Bertha is proposing here could save Mrs. Astor's own daughters place in society.

[Louisa Jacobson]

I'm to spend the rest of my.

[Morgan Spector]

Life making needlepoint samplers in front of the fire.

[Louisa Jacobson]

For that, you'd need to learn to thread a needle.

[Morgan Spector]

Whew.

[Louisa Jacobson]

That's really harsh. And we've been talking about divorce throughout this whole season, how it was a scandal at the time leading to the exclusion of divorced women. But for Mrs. Astor and Charlotte, how did these scenes compare to what happened in real life?

[Tom Myers]

You know, as we discussed, divorced women, of course, were excluded from high society. That would change with Alva Vanderbilt's high profile divorce in 1895. But what we're watching right now was playing out years before Charlotte Drayton's divorce was back in 1892. So this was very much scandalous in high society. And it was indeed Mrs. Astor who was upholding this rule that divorced women should not be permitted to attend events in high society.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Whew. That's a lot. And so Charlotte did actually go through the divorce. Despite all of this.

[Tom Myers]

She would. Two years later, in 1894, she would divorce her husband. She convinced her mother that it was not her fault at all, but rather her husband's. Some speculated that the Astor Fortune paid off Mr. Drayton to keep quiet and go along with it. Who knows? But now Mrs. Astor was faced with a real decision of whether or not to accept her own daughter, who was now divorced into society. This was something she had never permitted of anybody else. Now would she, for her own daughter. This was real.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Wow. So, yeah, it does closely mirror the show. And, you know, speaking of characters based on real life figures, Bertha's worried that no one's gonna show up to her ball but Gladys and the Duke. And they are looking like a committed, loving pair.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. How do you like that? I think from what you and I have both read in Consuelo's memoir, the Glitter and the Gold, they are much more in love on the show than the real life Consuelo and Duke of Marlboro were in real life.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, absolutely. And if you read about the real Duke, you will realize he was much less appealing than Hector is overall. But anyway, back to the ball. Marian escorts a nervous Aurora Fane. Agnes and Ada arrive. Charlotte Drayton has defied her mother to Be there. And there is an impressive display of.

[Tom Myers]

Illumination that was impressive, and it would have very much been impressive in 1884. Remember back in season one, in 1882, when Edison lit up, you know, the New York Times office in the area around City hall, which really did happen in 1882. So this was new technology. And the wealthiest New Yorkers were using this technology to occasionally dazzle their guests and, you know, to pay big bucks to have generators to produce these kinds of effects.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, it is dazzling, especially when Mrs. Esther arrives and we see a shot of the back of her. We see her jewelry, and we hear the whispers of, Mrs. Astor is here. Mrs. Astor.

[Morgan Spector]

Mrs. Astor.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, that was. And, yeah, the jewelry, I mean, the diamond necklace was just a showstopper there. And in real life, I mean, her jewelry was so spectacular. Her diamonds were famous. And they were actually written about in the newspaper articles that were written about the various parties that she threw or attended. You know, so she made a statement.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, she truly has a change of heart. Charlotte is in shock because she tells Charlotte that she is not an embarrassment. Embarrassment after all. So what about the real Mrs. Astor? Did she end up supporting her daughter?

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, society really speculated, you know, about what Mrs. Astor would do at her first party that she held, her first reception following her two year period of mourning. Would her daughter Charlotte be permitted to be there? And we have discussed Elizabeth Drexel Lehrer's book, King Lear, her memoir of the Gilded Age. She was a friend of Mrs. Astor, and she wrote, quote, their eyes turned anxiously toward Mrs. Astor as they entered the salon. Then they sighed with relief. Mrs. Drayton, Charlotte was standing by her mother, calmly helping her to receive her guests. So, yeah, in real life, Mrs. Astor did bend on this issue and ultimately did really stand in public alongside her daughter.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Okay, good. And, you know, here, once again, Bertha has triumphed. And speaking of standing up, George has swigged some Laudermen to be able to be standing upright. And also, Larry is at the ball, too.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, that laudanum, by the way, I had to look it up because at first I was like, is he poisoning himself? What is he drinking? And then realized, oh, it's just laudanum. I mean, like back in the day, people took it. It's a combination of opium and alcohol, and that was used to, you know, soothe pain, which it clearly did, because then George hops back in and hits the ballroom. And meanwhile, then Larry and Marian step outside, finally together. Finally, we seem to work through, you know, this confusion that has surrounded them for several episodes. And they seem to make some progress together and really demonstrate to each other and to us that even, you know, despite the fact that there might be misunderstandings and trust issues that come up in the future, at the very core, they do really seem to love each other. And that's all that seems to matter at that point.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, it's very sweet, you know, but at Peggy's bulk. We need to go over there right now because I have to talk about this big scene. Dr. Kirkland arrives. He ditches his parents to speak with Mr. Scott, asks for Peggy's hand in marriage, and he instantly proposes. And this scene is just so beautiful. There is slow motion camera work. The music stops. Peggy's face, she shows a mixture of happiness and a little bit of hope. Everyone is watching. They dance. And then he pops the question.

[Tom Myers]

It feels so good to see Peggy finally happy. Right? And she is just joyful as she turns on the dance floor, releasing her previous dance partner and taking up with Dr. Kirkland as they dance. And then he just pulls the ultimate suave move of twirling her around, and then he winds up on one knee and proposes to her.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, she deserves all the happiness. I'm thrilled for her. But of course, I have to ask for the real life parallels. Would this kind of public proposal have happened back in the 1880s?

[Tom Myers]

Well, if we're gonna nitpick, Alicia, you know, I did sort of like flip through some etiquette guides surrounding issues of marriages and proposals. It seems that in the Gilded age in the 1880s, the proposal was very private. It was a very private affair. May have been possibly witnessed by some members of the family, but it seems like it would have been somewhat taboo to have been witnessed by an entire dance floor. However, it makes brilliant tv, and I'm glad he got down.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, it makes for great tv. But, you know, for the Russells, it turns out that George hasn't forgiven Bertha at all. And his near death experience has only clarified everything for him.

[Alicia Malone]

I don't blame you for being ruthless. I admire it. It's what we share. But I'm ruthless in business, not with the people I love.

[Morgan Spector]

And I am ruthless for the people I love. Can you not see that? Is this because of the shooting?

[Alicia Malone]

Maybe. It's made me examine my life and I don't like everything I see.

[Morgan Spector]

So you're not coming home?

[Alicia Malone]

Not until we know what we want.

[Tom Myers]

I know what I want.

[Alicia Malone]

Of course you do.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Oh, this is a big rift between them. I mean, George leaves again, and it's hard to know what's going to happen, if he's going to come back.

[Tom Myers]

I kind of felt like Bertha there for a second. Like, I was sort of stumbling around trying to make sense of what just happened. Like, oh, so suddenly, after everything that happened the night before, like, mean George is back. I was completely confused and honestly, kind of disappointed.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah. And he misses out on hearing the happy news because just after he leaves, Gladys comes in to tell her mother that she is pregnant. There's a baby heir on the way.

[Tom Myers]

If we can say that at this moment, Bertha is, like, delirious, you know, and it's too late to tell George. And in real life, Consuelo would actually give birth 22 months after her wedding to the Duke of Marlborough. She would give birth to a baby boy, John Spencer Churchill, on September 18, 1897. But for Gladys here, you know, would she be giving birth to a baby boy or a baby girl? There were real implications now that she had joined English nobility. So we shall see.

[Louisa Jacobson]

We shall see. And can you believe it, Tom? That wraps up the end of season three of the Gilded Age. I mean, gosh, what a season. I have to say, this was, I think, my favorite season so far of the show. I really enjoyed watching it. There were ups, there were downs, there were big transformations for existing characters, and we also met plenty of new characters as well.

[Tom Myers]

It kept me glued to my seat and waiting for the next episode. I mean, I laughed, I cried, I jumped, I nearly reached for my own laudanum. I needed something to sort of, like, calm down. It was great. I'm also just so happy that the show's creators packed this season with so much history.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Absolutely. And I was so happy to learn about all that history from you. But, you know, we're not done with episode eight just yet because when we come back, we'll be talking all about this finale episode with Louisa Jacobson, Carrie Coon, Morgan Spector, and director Sally Richardson Whitfield.

[Tom Myers]

Welcome back to the official Gilded Age podcast. I am Tom Meyers, joined as always by my dear friend, Alicia Malone.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Hello, Tom. And we have got three big interviews coming up, and we are starting with someone very special. She plays Marian, and she has been on a journey this season. We are talking with Louisa Jacobson.

[Tom Myers]

Well, Louisa Jacobson, thank you so much for coming back on to the official Gilded Age podcast. It's so nice to see you again.

[Sally Richardson Whitfield]

It's great to see you guys again.

[Tom Myers]

We have so much, obviously, that we can talk about today, but we just finished watching episode eight. So dramatic. And actually episode eight begins Dramatically, too, with George Russell being shot, and Marian finds herself pretty much immediately, like, hands on, helping to save his life. It's a really tense scene. Can you take us sort of behind the scenes a little bit and tell us what it was like to shoot that?

[Sally Richardson Whitfield]

Sure. I mean, that scene was so exciting. We don't really have anything like that in the show. At least nothing that I had been a part of. We had these amazing effects makeup artists coming and creating this fake. They had created this fake bodice for George, a fake torso. Excuse me. So it's just incredible to witness the artistry, you know, not just in front of the camera, but behind the camera. Once they called action and we were really doing that scene where George's body is on the table and everything was working. Like, we would do a couple of shoes of shots, right. Without the blood pumping through, because they had to save it for his. For the coverage where they were showing the body. But once we did the shot where they were showing his body bleeding, it was as if it was really happening in front of me. I mean, you know, all the energy was just really tense, and there was blood coming out of his chest, and I was very nervous for poor Morgan. Life in front of me, you know, understandably. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was really cool. It's really amazing.

[Louisa Jacobson]

It's just part of the whole emotional journey that Marian goes on this season. We've been using that word a lot. Journey. To describe, you know, what she's been through because she's excited about the proposal, then she's feeling betrayed by Larry. But I imagine for you, as an actor, it must be a real joyful challenge to get to portray a character that goes through all of these peaks and troughs.

[Sally Richardson Whitfield]

It's exciting to see her fears come out, Marian's insecurities, to portray more corners and depths of her personality and humanity than just her being happy at being engaged or proposed to or, you know, being confused at first coming to New York. Like, it's fun to kind of get into the more complex areas of her.

[Louisa Jacobson]

And, you know, I think her story is very relatable. I'm sure a lot of people, myself included, can relate to that feeling of distrust or this feeling of, like, oh, no, this is happening again. And her storyline is also one of the storylines that speaks to this idea of the stakes being so much higher for women during society at this time.

[Sally Richardson Whitfield]

Yeah, I think that. I think that was one of the biggest challenges. Right. Because a 20, 25 audience is seeing this, and they're like, probably like, he didn't do anything. It's not a big deal. So I'm kind of batting up a little bit because I'm. The audience is ahead of me, not only in plot, but also in time. And I was like, wait a minute. I think we need to hear a little bit more from Marian about why she's just gonna cut this off then. I think that for a modern audience, you really need that. Otherwise it comes across as just sort of rash and unreasonable. The stakes are high for a number of reasons. She sees Aurora being ostracized in society because her husband cheated on her, which feels so unfair. She's seeing Gladys being married off to a duke without her consent. Last season, she saw T. Thomas Fortune, who was married, cheat on his wife with Peggy. And then in season two, she's sort of pressured by her aunts to marry someone sensible, but she doesn't want to get into a marriage and lose her rights and her right to own property, her right to her own life, to someone that she doesn't even love. And I think that that's a very. I think that women at that time were struggling with that. And when she finds out she's been lied to about where Larry went that night, she's very, very triggered. And she is smart and is aware that at a place like the Haymarket, married men are going out and they are sleeping with sex workers. So it's not unreasonable for Marian to do that. What Larry was doing with all of his buddies was just that. And that puts her at risk health wise. I mean, you know, the American Health association had called attention to what they called social diseases at the time, which were venereal diseases. Not only is her health at risk, she feels very slighted also. And word could get out about this. And like I said, she has eyes on her now. There's people watching. So the stakes are high for her. And I think it's just a big betrayal.

[Tom Myers]

It makes me think of when you were saying to Peggy, it's particularly hurtful that he did this on the night that, you know, we had just told our aunts and his parents. I'm just thinking of how you, as an actress, that's quite a demand on you, right? To take that entirely complex universe that you just described and convey that.

[Sally Richardson Whitfield]

Yeah, I mean, it's extremely difficult. You know, I was really grateful to be given this wonderful scene with Ada where I get to say, I'm doing this because I'm so scared. I've been really, really effed over by all these men. I'm so fed up with it. What am I supposed to do? You see her really struggle and I just wanted that. So I'm grateful that that, that got it in there.

[Louisa Jacobson]

I know you're a big history buff and that's something you're interested in. What kinds of research do you do?

[Sally Richardson Whitfield]

Well, I listen to the Bowery Boys podcast to give you guys a shout out. I absolutely love don't make me blush.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Sally Richardson Whitfield]

It really is so wonderful. Also something that I came across which was super cool this season, actually, we this scene where Larry comes to my workplace. One of the very limited times you see Marian working, he comes to her classroom to like talk it out, to be like, what's going on, girl? Why did you. Why did you end this engagement? That was shot at Milneck Lutheran School for the Deaf, which was also known as the Lillian Sefton Dodge House.

[Tom Myers]

And what city is that in?

[Sally Richardson Whitfield]

It was in Long island and it was not technically a Gilded Age era building, but it was owned by this woman, Lillian Sefton Dodge. And her husband, he was a stained glass artist. But his wife is super interesting. She owned this cosmetics company called Harriet Hubbard Ayer. And when she died, she was the richest woman in the United States. I'm learning all this history inside this house because the room that they had me getting dressed in and waiting in for my scene to start was this sort of mausoleum to Harriet Hubbard Iyer Cosmetics. And I started reading all these like framed newspaper pamphlets. And Harriet Hubbard Iyer was born in 18, I think the 1840s, and she died in 1903. She was a Chicago socialite who was married in 1866 when she was 17 to a man who was like 14 years her senior. She had two kids. She separated from him in 1882. And as we see on this show. Right. Separating from your husband or getting a divorce is like a big no, no. So she left Chicago and in her travels in France, she like came across these creams that I guess she really liked. She brought it to the States and she made her own product. And she essentially started the first cosmetics company in the United States and was the wealthiest woman, wealthiest self made woman in the United States, which I think is so cool. She was the original Estee Lauder. Like, she. I find that so cool. And I just discovered all this while I was shooting there, but I think her business was thriving during the Gilded Age. It's likely that Marian saw women like this as examples. And that's part of the reason why she is interested in things beyond Marriage and is also skeptical of getting married because she wants to have control over her finances. She wants to own her own property, perhaps. You know, there's all those things I.

[Tom Myers]

Love on a very meta level that you. Louisa, this was in your mind as you were, you know, on set shooting this scene with Larry coming to disturb you in your place of work. There's something beautiful about that.

[Sally Richardson Whitfield]

It was great inspiration to have right before doing that scene.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Louisa, so nice to talk to you. Thank you so much for making the time.

[Sally Richardson Whitfield]

Thanks for having me.

[Tom Myers]

Wow, that was really fun to talk to Louisa again. I really. I always enjoy talking to Louisa about history because she's so into New York history. You know, I thought it was really telling, you know, that this history is always in her mind when she's shooting these scenes.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, in her mind and in her earbuds. Because she's a big fan of your podcast Tom Barry Boys, which is such a nice thing to hear. And, you know, she's talked a little bit about episode eight and how, you know, the dramatic nature of the beginning scene in episode eight. And we're going to hear more about that from two people very much involved with that scene. Let's go to part two of our chat with Carrie Coon and Morgan Spector.

[Tom Myers]

So 308 opens here.

[Alicia Malone]

Operating table.

[Tom Myers]

Yes. Oh, very dramatic opening experience.

[Morgan Spector]

That is a dramatic opening. Heavens, that was a fun day.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, it was a fun day.

[Tom Myers]

Can you tell us about that day? What was it? Look very.

[Morgan Spector]

We never get to do that stuff. It's not the.

[Tom Myers]

Nick, it was great.

[Morgan Spector]

It was really cool. I mean, we get. You know, we get prosthetic designers, and he has a pretend chest, and you got an actor learning to do doctor things and work the props. You know, there's props everywhere in blood, and it's great.

[Tom Myers]

It was awesome.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, it was fun. It also felt like, because we have how many people. There's. There's like four or five of us all there, and everybody's, like, helping, and everybody's, like, getting freaked out to different degrees. It was a very. It was a real moment of kind of. Of ensemble acting.

[Morgan Spector]

And the effects were so good. I remember Louisa being particularly rattled by what she was seeing because they make it so real. And it's your job to sort of embrace those circumstances, and the good ones do. And I remember the kids being kind.

[Tom Myers]

Of rattled by it.

[Alicia Malone]

The kids were a little rattled.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah.

[Alicia Malone]

And they scanned me and they built this piece of my chest, and if I just looked at myself, it looked exactly like my body.

[Morgan Spector]

Was insane. My greatest regret was not getting a photograph wearing it myself. We're digging it out of storage for that.

[Tom Myers]

Were you actually laying there?

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tom Myers]

So you were there, but the.

[Alicia Malone]

I'm wearing a silicon prosthetic. It's about three quarters of an inch thick. And so they were able to cut into it. They were able to run a tube underneath and have blood come out like it was really.

[Tom Myers]

And when they popped out that bullet that was coming out of the side of you. Yeah.

[Alicia Malone]

So Jordan's able to just do, like, almost exactly realistic surgery.

[Morgan Spector]

That's the summary. It's like. It's just. It's like Halloween. Yeah.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah. It's rattling to watch. And also quite emotional to watch, too. I almost cried watching it, especially with Bertha, as George goes into shock, and she's like, please, please. It must have been an emotional scene to shoot as well.

[Morgan Spector]

Yeah, those are. I mean, the thing about those days is that you always have to pace yourself because you're gonna do it for many hours. And so inevitably, there comes a day where you're like, no. Oh, I need a sandwich. You're totally bone dry because you've been crying for six hours. And so it really is kind of about, you know, pacing yourself through those shots. And that's the difference between, like, TV and film is that, you know, when you do something like that, you do it the whole day. And in the theater, you get to, like, get a little run up to the climax and then cry. And that's just not the way TV and film is. It's a different kind of acting challenge.

[Alicia Malone]

Both George and Bertha have a real kind of awakening as a result of this brush with death. But for George, it's like he has a sense of man. His priorities are. He reevaluates his priorities, and he sort of realizes that actually he should never have let his daughter be married off in this way, that it wasn't done the right way. It wasn't done out of care, he feels. And I think for Bertha, correct me if I'm wrong, it's like she just watched her husband almost die, and she's realized how much she loves him and how much she doesn't want to lose him, and they both end up kind of going in these two different directions as a result of this thing. So it's.

[Morgan Spector]

Yeah, that's true.

[Alicia Malone]

It's fascinating.

[Tom Myers]

We spoke earlier in the season with Cynthia and with Christine about episode seven, when you get to actually visit the Van Rhijn house.

[Carrie Coon]

I know.

[Morgan Spector]

And we were hoping we would have Made more of it.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. How was that for you?

[Morgan Spector]

Well, I wish I never. I didn't even speak. I don't even have lines in that scene.

[Tom Myers]

I think I'm line.

[Morgan Spector]

And Christine said, I always imagine there would be a shot of your foot crossing my threshold. And I said, me too. But it just. I mean, in some way, it just goes to show how far we've come in the relationship, that it doesn't really rate that we've kind of dispensed with that argument now. But we were a little bit disappointed that to get to make more or even just a snarky comment about the decorating, you know, at least a snarky comment about her decorating.

[Tom Myers]

I guess you had Ward McAllister on the mind. You know, that was.

[Morgan Spector]

Well, certainly, you know, bigger things, bigger fish to fry now. But, yeah, you kind of hope there's gonna be more of a meal, make more of a meal out of it. But, you know, that's old news. That's season one.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah. Moving on. Speaking of season one, it's sort of a nice full circle moment where now Bertha is hosting the big ball at the end of the season in Newport. For you personally, filming a ball for the second time. Like, did you feel any different?

[Morgan Spector]

Well, I wasn't pregnant anymore. Felt really different. Gabe Brown, just a few weeks after that last ball. And also my. I remember my waistline was up to my. You know, it was an empire waist in my previous dress. You know, the balls are long nights, and we didn't have as. We actually didn't have as much to do. Because you were injured. Yeah, it was unpredictable, and so we didn't have to dance. Normally. You're spending a lot of time getting prepped for the ball, dancing, ballroom dancing. But sadly, we didn't get to participate in the dancing this season. We just got to watch everybody else mess it up every shot, shot after shot. And you hope you get one good taste because it's very hard to do great choreographers working and everything. But those tend to be really long nights. So I don't approach them as a party planner. You know, like you're trying to eat a lot of snacks and pace yourself again because you're up all night, stay hydrated, dancing. And it's. I remember the wind that night, one of the nights we were shooting in the house, there was this incredible gust of wind coming through, and it was right when Turner, when Kelly Curran was taking the carpet and it just billowed out her dress in the most magnificent diva way. I mean, the Crew was just like. And I was just like, go to hell. Obviously, I adore her. She's a great nemesis, but it was so Turner. Just like her taking focus. It was great. But those nights are so fun because everybody's together.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Well, we love this season, so thank you both so much. Carrie Coon, Morgan Spector, thank you for joining us.

[Tom Myers]

Thank you.

[Morgan Spector]

Thanks for your time. Appreciate it.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Carrie Coon, Morgan Spector, there's so much fun to talk to. And how fascinating, Tom, to hear all about how they filmed that scene, that surgery scene with the fake torso. I wish we could see a photo of Morgan wearing that fake torso.

[Tom Myers]

I know. There's gotta be a photo someplace, right? Instagram someplace. But so realistic on set as well. I mean, it certainly put them in the mood. And I think that that really comes through in the episode. And today's episode, by the way, was directed by Sally Richardson Whitfield, who we will talk to right now.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Sally, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. It's lovely to see you.

[Carrie Coon]

Lovely to see you. I'm excited to be here.

[Louisa Jacobson]

And I know that you have been an executive producer on all three seasons of the show. You directed episodes in season one, and you're back as a director for season three. What was it like returning as a director this season? Were there any differences you noticed from season one?

[Carrie Coon]

It's just gotten bigger and better. Honestly, that's the only difference I can see. We have such a lovely group of people, cast and crew, Julian, Sonya, so it's really a delight when you come back to family and things are run easily. So that's all I can say. It's great to be back and a lot of fun.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Well, speaking of bigger and better, you got to helm the final two episodes of the season. How was that? That must have been fun. Just kind of land that ship.

[Carrie Coon]

Well, I had been telling Michael Engler for a while that I was a bit annoyed that I didn't get a ball before because he's gotten the balls. So then I got to get the two biggest balls. And yeah, I mean, that was really what I was focused on is how do I. How do I bring these two different worlds to life in a different way? So it was very exciting for me to do. And then obviously, the opening of 8 is a completely almost a different show. And I was just very excited to explore different ways to tell the story of Gilded after doing it so long, you know?

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, we wanted to ask you about that just because it is so dramatic. It is so different, you know, that first scene, even the way that it's shot, is different. As George is being raced through the streets back home for this emergency operation. Can you talk about what was this a handheld camera that you were using there?

[Carrie Coon]

It was. I talked to David Crockett, one of our execs who's on the set all the time, one of our eps, and I said, so I know I've been gone a while, but I think I may go rogue. And I think, you know, because we really do have a style on the show, we don't do handheld. But I felt like this was a pivotal point in our story and we needed to do something different to really accentuate the danger of what was happening and just to surprise people. So they let me do it when they were like, yeah, do whatever you want to do. And I think that it definitely jolted the audience and it's an exciting opener.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Well, Louisa Carey and Morgan were all saying how, you know, the fake chest that he wore with the fan, fake blood, really helped them, you know, set the scene that they could really feel like they were in the moment. But what are the technicalities involved as a director when you're dealing with fake blood and a fake chest?

[Carrie Coon]

It is definitely a series of steps that we have to go through. And we did, like two to three different rehearsals with Dr. Our, you know, our young Dr. Kirkland, so that he could really feel like he was a doctor, so that could come off natural. And I really love his performance because he's so calm and you trust him and you believe that he knows what he's doing. And those rehearsals definitely helped us. You kind of have to go through these steps of, okay, we have blood in now and blood we don't have. Then all of a sudden, let's bring in the hoses so we can, you know, as we get tight in detail so we can now push the blood through so it comes through naturally. So it does make it a bit more technical than you would like it to be on the day.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, you did a good job. Both Tom and I were, like, viscerally wincing at what we were seeing. It was so scary.

[Carrie Coon]

We don't do a lot of blood on gilded, so I thought I'd bring it all in now.

[Louisa Jacobson]

No blue blood. You do blue blood? Yes, that's right. Well, speaking of blue blood, the Kirklands have been a wonderful addition to season three and episode eight. In the finale episode, you get this big showdown between Mrs. Kirkland and Mrs. Scott. So what was it like for you as a director, just to see Audra McDonald and Phylicia Rashad going head to.

[Carrie Coon]

Head to bring these two women together in this beautiful cat fight.

[Sally Richardson Whitfield]

Is.

[Carrie Coon]

Is really a dream come true for me. You know, as a young actress, I would have thought, I just want to be in a scene with these two women and act. And now to be in charge of their performance is a wonderful honor and was so much fun. And what I love about both of them is that they're so open to notes from me. And really for this to be this wonderful collaboration. And it was just. It was a joy and it'll be one of those memories that I take with me, I think, for the rest of my life.

[Tom Myers]

Tell us about the. You know, in these two episodes that you directed, episode seven and eight, there have also been some really heavy hitting, emotional scenes too, right? Just Marian's wrestling with her trust issues around Larry. And, you know, there was also Oscar's grief in front of his mother and Marian's comforting of him. How were those to direct?

[Carrie Coon]

Well, I think about Louisa, who plays Marian in that scene, and it was definitely. It was a hard one for her and for me, you know, Louisa cares so much about this character. And so we took the time. You know, I did do a little trick with her because sometimes when actors, sometimes they're really good and fresh in the beginning. And I kind of felt like, she's ready, she's ready. And I went in and I'm like, put. Let's go to the close up right now. We don't need to tell her. Let's just go, she's ready. I don't want to lose it. And she's giving this, you know, amazing performance that you, I think you see, I think honestly, it's one of her best and one of my favorites. And then later on she's like, well, okay, now we have to go to the tighter ones. I hope I still have it. I go, oh, babe, I got that. I'm like, well, it's done. And there's just. Sometimes you can be more free when you don't think it's time that now I have to give it. And then with Oscar or Blake, he is able to do. You know, we would kind of, when we were doing that performance, we'd do it big. We do it more controlled, we would do it more sarcastic. He really tried all these different levels so we could find where was gonna be the right spot for it. And what I loved about that scene so much is, you know, we're very guarded and gilded. You know, you don't really get those big outbursts. Cause everyone is so worried about, you know, how they're seen and what are the right manners. And you really get to see Oscar the character, Blake, the actor, be able to be completely raw and real and dramatic. And again, I think it gave him opportunity to give one of his best performances also.

[Louisa Jacobson]

And as you mentioned, you got to direct two balls for the final episode. There are two balls in this episode. Bertha's ball and the ball that Peggy attends. What kinds of differences did you want to show or highlight between the two balls?

[Carrie Coon]

Well, I think that Kasha did it perfectly. Obviously, we have these different wardrobe, you know, so that. Well, you're gonna know it's two different balls because one's a black ball and one's a white ball. But I'm like, oh, that'd be like, oh, it's just the clothes. You have no idea. But there. There is a different. You know, we had more of this kind of, you know, white and pastel colors for the Black Elite ball that felt more cotillion like. And I mean, and we still have balls like that to this day. And it reminds me of the ones that I saw growing up within the black community. And then Bertha's ball, she's always still. You know, she's still trying to push the envelope, you know, so it's all these brighter colors and fanfare. But I did want to make sure that they blast. Black Elite Ball felt just as grand in its own way, and I think that we were able to accomplish both. I also wanted to make sure that we could. Like, a lot of the shots that I did, you'll see were, like, diving in, coming, you know, off of a light, and then the same thing in the other ball so that it really almost felt seamless, like it was one ball happening at the same time, but obviously two different ones. It was a great puzzle to put together. I love a puzzle. And that's what these two sequences were for me and for my. And I have to shout out my DP Manuel, because, you know, we are definitely a wonderful partnership in this, and I could not do it without him.

[Tom Myers]

Well, we noticed also in Peggy's ball scene how, you know, the. Obviously, the. The big Moment is when Dr. Kirkland steps out and she twirls around, and this winds up in, of course, a beautiful marriage proposal. But we saw slow motion photography.

[Carrie Coon]

Speaking of detail, I told you I was doing. I was doing crazy stuff all over the place.

[Tom Myers]

Is that the first time we saw.

[Carrie Coon]

Slow Mo really wanted that to feel like a. Like a Fairy tale, like this beautiful Cinderella moment. And I felt that Peggy's character deserved it. And it's. To date, I would say it's one of my favorite things, favorite scenes I've ever shot. The moment when she turns, and as we're kind of the camera is pushing in on her, she just, like, looks like this beautiful angel. And she's so. It's just so pure, and it's so full of love. And every time I watch fills me with emotion and a slight tear. And it just makes me so happy. And I think that hopefully the audience is going to feel the same way.

[Tom Myers]

I think it's impossible not to. I mean, it's so emotional, you know, and the joy on her face is just so. It resonates.

[Louisa Jacobson]

And then over at Bertha's ball, the big moment is Mrs. Astor's arrival. Can you tell us about using the camera here? Because I love that, you know, we see her back and then we see the jewels and taking off the coat. It's like. It's a dramatic reveal, but it feels appropriate.

[Carrie Coon]

Everyone teases me on the set because they know that I like my pieces. And that is one of those scenes where it's lots of little pieces. And Mrs. Aster, you know, is she or isn't she, she gonna come to the. You know, to the ball? And how do we build up the hype of that? And in her character, you know, we always wanna do something grand. So I think at the last minute, I felt like once we did that crane shot that kind of pushes in behind her as she comes in the door, I'm like, we need something gilded. Gilded is sometimes about these beautiful details to cut into this. And I'm like. Like, it's this. It's the necklace. It's the reveal of the necklace. It's so gilded. It's so. Mrs. Aster. It's so perfect for the moment. And, you know, and it just kind of built the tension. I love an entrance for characters, and I love lots of little pieces to tell the story.

[Louisa Jacobson]

And when you're storyboarding or when you're on set, I imagine you must have to work very closely with choreographer John Carafa on the balls, because it's almost like you have to choreograph the camera alongside the dancing.

[Carrie Coon]

Working with John, our choreographer, we definitely had, you know, routines that the dancers had been working on ahead of time. But what's so wonderful about him as a choreographer and the dancers that we have, there will be times when we needed something different. And on the day, I'm Like, I need the camera to. To wrap here and then push here and then find the actors here. He's like, okay, give me a second. He'd work with them for, you know, the little, two, three minutes I would give him because we're in a hurry, and he'd be like. He goes. And, you know, you see the Steadicam come in there, and they'd work it out. But there's definitely, you know, some tweaks that we have to do on the day so that we're not knocking people over as we're trying to swish through all these dancers. So he really wonderful to collaborate with him.

[Tom Myers]

I remember when we spoke in season one, how you mentioned that you liked how the Gilded Age explored some themes that are particularly relevant to today, and I'm curious about how you feel about that in season three, if it continues to explore these relevant themes and what's going on sort of in 2025.

[Carrie Coon]

It's actually pretty amazing how our show will reflect the times, seeing that, you know, we've probably been working on this for the last two years to get it ready and just happens to be what's going on sort of in the world with, you know, classism and money and how we deal with the idea of colorism within the black community. You know, the one thing that has grown so much this season is the. The black elite storyline and really delving into what that. What it meant to be black in the late 1800s, what it meant to have money in the 1800s as a person of color. So it's been really amazing to explore these storylines for the first time. And I think for our audience, what I found is that in particular, the African American community really loves it because they know it's an authentic storytelling, and it's not fantasy, and it's historical, and people really get to learn. Learn what it was like for them in the late 1800s and enjoy the story. You know, one thing that Julian and Sonya do so well is give you this history, but at the same time, entertain, and that is very hard to do.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Well, Sally, thank you so much for your time, and big congratulations on season three.

[Tom Myers]

Congrats.

[Carrie Coon]

It's been a good season. I can't believe how well it's done. Or. Yes, you know, actually, I can. Thank you so much for having me.

[Tom Myers]

That was so fun speaking with Sally, and I just. I'm laughing about how she said that she went rogue on the Gilded Age in this episode at the beginning and really at the end.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, the Gilded Age has such a set style in terms of its visual look, but she added in some flourishes there and definitely made us cry. And I can't believe it, Tom, but that's the end of season three of the Gilded Age.

[Tom Myers]

Don't make me cry, Alicia. I've been crying for the last two episodes. Let's stop. And there's no reason to cry. We're not going anywhere yet.

[Louisa Jacobson]

That's right. It's the end of the show. But not the end of our podcast just yet. So save your tears. Especially because the Gilded Age has been picked up for season four. Woo. Can't wait to see what happens to Peggy, to Larian, to all of our favorite characters. But in the meantime, join us in just a couple of days for a special bonus episode. And Tom and I will be talking through all of our favorite moments from the season. Yes, the ones that made us cry, but also the ones that made us swoon. And we have a bunch of new interviews, including Aurora Fane herself, Kelly o'. Hara. I can't wait to speak with her. So tune into that in just a couple of days time. But thank you so much for listening to us throughout this season. It's been so much fun.

[Tom Myers]

It has been a great pleasure. What a series, what a season. And it's been really fun having you here. But save the tears.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Yes, save the tears. We'll see you soon. Bye.

[Tom Myers]

This has been the official Gilded Age podcast, written, hosted and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers.

[Louisa Jacobson]

The podcast is a production of HBO in collaboration with Pod People.

[Tom Myers]

For Pod People. Our supervising producer is Rebecca Chasson, associate producer Sam Gabauer, and our video editor is Susannah Vasquez. Special thanks to Hannah Pedersen and Amy.

[Louisa Jacobson]

Machado for HBO Podcasts. Our executive producer is Michael Glucks and associate producer is Erin Kelly.