S2 Ep. 2: “Some Sort of Trick” with Deborah Kampmeier and Bob Shaw

Summary

The Official Gilded Age Podcast
Season 2, Episode 2: “Some Sort of Trick”
Hosts: Alicia Malone & Tom Meyers
Guests: Deborah Kampmeier (Director) & Bob Shaw (Production Designer)
Release Date: November 6, 2023

---

Introduction

In the second episode of Season 2, titled “Some Sort of Trick,” hosts Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies and Tom Meyers from The Bowery Boys delve deep into the latest developments of HBO’s The Gilded Age. Joined by director Deborah Kampmeier and Emmy-winning production designer Bob Shaw, the duo explores both the on-screen action and the intricate behind-the-scenes craftsmanship that brings the opulent world of 1880s New York to life.

Plot Developments and Key Scenes

The episode kicks off with intense drama at the Russell mansion. George Russell confronts Oscar Van Rhijn, who proposes to marry George’s daughter, Gladys. Despite Oscar’s efforts to present his financial stability and genuine affection, George remains resolute in his refusal.

George Russell (Narrator): “[05:34] Well, the answer is no. Gladys will not agree to be your wife.”

Tom Meyers highlights the complexity of George’s character, drawing parallels to the historical figure Jay Gould, who was both a ruthless businessman and a devoted family man. This confrontation underscores George’s desire for his daughter to marry for love rather than convenience, adding depth to his relationship with Gladys.

Alicia Malone echoes this sentiment, noting Gladys’s relief at not proceeding with the arranged marriage, emphasizing the bond she shares with her father.

Alicia Malone: “[04:06] Yeah, it's quite sweet. And I think Gladys is also relieved that she doesn't actually have to move forward with Oscar.”

The episode also explores the dynamics between Agnes and her lady’s maid, Peggy Armstrong. Agnes threatens Peggy to uphold kindness and eliminate racism, revealing the underlying tensions and societal expectations of the era.

Agnes: “[11:34] Exactly. And I think we have to give it up also to Deborah Monk, who does an excellent job at playing Armstrong.”

Historical Context and Social Commentary

Tom Meyers provides insightful commentary on the prevalence of marriages of convenience during the Gilded Age, explaining how both old-established and newly wealthy families strategically arranged marriages to secure social standing and financial stability.

Tom Meyers: “[06:13] Well, of course, it's impossible to say exactly who married for love and who married for convenience, but it's clear that it was expected that you would marry within your own social class.”

They delve into the real-life example of the Wilson family, who masterfully married their children into prominent families like the Astors and Vanderbilts, illustrating the era’s strategic matrimonial alliances.

The discussion transitions to labor issues of the Gilded Age, highlighting the harsh working conditions, low wages, and the rise of labor unions like the Amalgamated Association of Iron and Steel Workers, which represented thousands of workers seeking better conditions.

Tom Meyers: “[22:23] Lots of conflict between workers and owners, which is historically accurate. Yeah, the Gilded Age was a period of incredible wealth disparity.”

Character Analyses

The hosts analyze various characters, including the budding relationship between Larry Russell and the intriguing widow, Mrs. Susan Blaine. Their whirlwind romance at the Newport Casino introduces themes of scandal and societal expectations.

Alicia Malone: “[19:13] It does feel really fast.”

Bertha, Larry’s mother, expresses concern over her son’s association with an older woman, highlighting the double standards of the time regarding male and female relationships.

Tom Meyers: “[21:12] I mean, acceptable. It wouldn't be something that you talked about with your family or your mom, you know, at 5 o' clock in the morning.”

Behind-the-Scenes Insights

Guests Deborah Kampmeier and Bob Shaw provide an in-depth look into the production elements that enhance the storytelling of The Gilded Age.

Production Design with Bob Shaw

Bob Shaw discusses the challenges of sourcing authentic locations like the Elms in Newport, which serves as Bertha’s mansion. He elaborates on the meticulous process of selecting fabrics, furnishings, and props that accurately reflect the period while supporting the narrative.

Bob Shaw: “[35:37] Mrs. Blaine's house. But Larry also is a very fast worker in terms of how quickly he transformed the house that the Russells bought in Newport.”

He emphasizes the importance of integrating real architectural elements to maintain historical accuracy and the aesthetic continuity of the show.

Directing with Deborah Kampmeier

Deborah Kampmeier shares her approach to directing in an established series. She highlights the collaborative efforts required to maintain the show’s visual and emotional tone, especially when working with intricate sets and large ensemble scenes like the Newport Casino tennis tournament.

Deborah Kampmeier: “[36:31] It’s my party, Right. But this is their party, and it's a beautiful party.”

Kampmeier underscores the significance of capturing authentic emotional beats, ensuring that character interactions feel genuine and impactful.

Notable Quotes

• Deborah Kampmeier: “[12:03] What's this?”

• Tom Meyers: “[13:02] And what struck me is...”

• Bob Shaw: “[43:31] We open the set every day, particularly if it's new.”

Final Thoughts and Upcoming Content

The hosts express excitement for the episode’s dramatic reveals, particularly the return of the beloved character Turner and the introduction of Maud Beaton, a potential secret daughter of Jay Gould. They anticipate further exploration of family dynamics and societal pressures in upcoming episodes.

Alicia Malone: “[31:29] ...how did she end up there? Will Bertha try and tear her down? Will she go after Bertha? I just have so many questions.”

Conclusion

Season 2, Episode 2 of The Gilded Age continues to weave intricate narratives of wealth, power, and societal norms against the backdrop of 19th-century New York. With rich character development and historically grounded scenarios, the episode offers both compelling drama and thoughtful commentary on the era's social intricacies. The insights from Deborah Kampmeier and Bob Shaw further illuminate the artistic and logistical efforts that bring this lavish period drama to life.

---

Follow Us:
Stay updated with behind-the-scenes content and join the conversation on Facebook and Instagram @GildedAgeHBO.

Listen Again:
Missed the episode? Tune in on Max or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Narrator]

What is dadication? The thing that drives me every day.

[Tom Meyers]

As a dad is Dariona. We call him Dae Dae for short.

[Narrator]

Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together.

[Tom Meyers]

We did a good job.

[Narrator]

That's Dadication. Find out [e-mail] brought to you by.

[Tom Meyers]

The U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could.

[Narrator]

Save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.

[Tom Meyers]

Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. My father wants me to wait until.

[Alicia Malone]

I fall in love. How heartening. I never thought of Mr. Russell as a romantic. I mean to depend on him to.

[Tom Meyers]

Help me judge a suitor's intentions.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

Father won't be blinded, even if I am.

[Alicia Malone]

My orders are simple. I'm to find a man with birth, position and money. What about looks? I think that's up to me. Well, hello there. Welcome back to the official Gilded Age podcast. I'm Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies, and right here, right alongside me is my favorite New York historian, Tom Meyers from the Barry Boys podcast.

[Tom Meyers]

Hi, Alicia. You are so kind. I'm guessing that maybe I'm the only New York historian you know, but hey, I'll take it. Thank you. Hello to all of you joining us. We are so excited to be back in your earbuds as your companion to the HBO original series the Gilded Age, now in season two.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes. Last week we went to church with the Russells, the Astors and the Van Rhijns. We saw their Easter finery, learned that Marion is shock horror, a teacher. And we met two new characters, Reverend Forte and Dashiell Montgomery.

[Tom Meyers]

This week we're heading to Newport for a spot of tennis and a very fancy party where Bertha gets a really big shock. And we'll be talking about the fabulous Newport Casino with Emmy award winning production designer Bob Shaw and director Deborah Campmeyer.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

The whole thing is choreographed so that as Ward McAllister is leading these two new people to Bertha, it was very important that we get this build of their walk up without revealing who it is. And then to get to see Bertha, see who it is before we see who it is. And then when we see who it is, it's just so naughty, really.

[Tom Meyers]

Well, today's episode kicks off with quite a bit of screaming, actually at the Russell mansion where George has received Oscar Van Rhijn's letter of proposal to be Gladys husband. And everybody is clearly upset. George has seen right through Oscar's tricks.

[Alicia Malone]

He actually wants more for Gladys, surprisingly. Love.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah. I was surprised by this scene in her bedroom. I mean, we are now seeing the softer side of George Russell. He's more complex. Julian Fellowes mentioned in our last episode the influence of Jay Gould on George's character and how Gould was, you know, aside from being a cutthroat businessman, he was also a devoted family man. And I think that we're seeing that here. George actually wants his daughter to be in love with the man she marries. And when he tells her that and makes her a deal, you know, in that very George Russell way of his, you see Gladys smile and I think that you see the bond that they share.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, it's quite sweet. And I think Gladys is also relieved that she doesn't actually have to move forward with Oscar.

[Tom Meyers]

I think that we're all a little bit relieved that she doesn't have to move forward with Oscar.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And probably George most of all because he certainly did not mince words when he met with Oscar to talk about this letter of proposal telling Oscar in no uncertain terms that this marriage will not happen. Take a listen.

[Narrator]

Well, the answer is no. Gladys will not agree to be your wife.

[Tom Meyers]

Is that it? I might. I have no chance to put my case. I've. I brought papers proving my financial status and I'll inherit my mother's house on 61st Street. So Gladys home would be right across from yours.

[Narrator]

You are welcome to show me what you like.

[Tom Meyers]

I'm not in a hurry. But nothing will alter my conclusion. You know that I'm very much in love with her.

[Narrator]

Well, that is what I do not quite know. But you are right to claim it. Since a love match is the one.

[Tom Meyers]

Thing I'm determined on for her, then I can assure you that I do. Please.

[Narrator]

You have not convinced her and you.

[Tom Meyers]

Will not convince me.

[Narrator]

I think you may genuinely like her and that you intended her to be happy in her life with you more than I.

[Tom Meyers]

Let me finish.

[Narrator]

I understand these marriages of convenience take place in every fashionable church in this city, but I want more than that for my child.

[Tom Meyers]

Of course you do.

[Narrator]

And I can only leave it there, Mr. Van Rhijn. And now you should go.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, sorry, Oscar. You are gonna have to find that money elsewhere.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah, I don't think that that was quite the meeting that Oscar had been expecting.

[Alicia Malone]

No.

[Tom Meyers]

I also like, by the way, that George says he's not in a hurry, and then 30 seconds later, he's like, oscar, you need to go.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, it's very like, we're done here now.

[Tom Meyers]

Get out completely. Alicia, I think that Oscar is having kind of a rough start to season two. You know, I'm actually beginning to feel a little bit sorry for him.

[Alicia Malone]

Me too. And, you know, also, I'd love to talk to you about these marriages of convenience, because we just heard George say that they took place in every fashionable church in the city. So, you know, amongst the wealthy at this time, can you tell if these marriages of convenience were more common than marriages for love?

[Tom Meyers]

Well, of course, it's impossible to say exactly who married for love and who married for convenience, but it's clear that it was expected that you would marry within your own social class. Things got trickier, of course, when your social ranking had changed somewhat. Recently, we've seen already plenty of prejudice against new money, for example, on the show. But it's also a fact that old established families sometimes married into new fortunes in order to bring an infusion of cash to the family.

[Alicia Malone]

It's like a business, right?

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah. Very practical. And, you know, certainly newly rich families also saw an opportunity to marry up into society. One family that was famous for their strategic marriages during the Gilded Age were the Wilsons were who. Who had moved to New York from Tennessee. The father, Richard Wilson, had built a fortune off of the Civil War and later banking and railroads. And he and his wife Melissa somehow managed to marry their four children off, I mean, exceptionally well. One to a prominent doctor, then one to a Golet, one to an Astor, and finally one to a Vanderbilt. And society referred to them behind their backs as. As the, quote, marine Wilsons.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I remember you telling me about this last season because I think there was a Wilson that was a character on the show.

[Tom Meyers]

That's right. Marshall Ormey Wilson, who was Carrie Astor's love interest. And yes, this really did happen. Despite Caroline Astor's Mrs. Astor's best intentions to marry her own daughter to established society, Carrie Astor would go on to become Carrie Astor Wilson.

[Alicia Malone]

And that's really interesting because, you know, I would assume that these marriages of convenience happened more for women because they didn't have much opportunity to, you know, make their own money. But it seems like men like Oscar in this story or those Wilson boys were also Quite strategic in marriage.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah. And look, there were practical concerns, right? I mean, a young woman like Gladys was being brought up in an opulent mansion and waited on at dinner by, you know, servants in livery dress. Okay. Would Oscar be able to provide that lifestyle for her? And even if his bride was bringing her own fortune, which was clearly the case here, would he know how to manage it?

[Alicia Malone]

Well, I guess that's why Oscar brought along those financial documents to show George. So what do you think a prospective groom like Oscar would. Would need to show a wealthy father like George, you know, to just help his case?

[Tom Meyers]

Well, I think it would be a moment to show his cards, you know, what exactly was the Van Rhijn fortune made up of? Investments, bonds, real estate. You know, Ada mentioned in season one that Agnes's late husband had invested in Manhattan real estate decades before, and it had obviously paid off, which in real life was very much like the Astor family. And it seems that Oskar, I mean, he works somewhere, right? He does something during the day. It seems that he spends his days taking care of the family fortune. But in this scene, I mean, alas, he has lugged around all those financial papers for nothing.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And when he came back to 61st street, he looked so rejected. He lay on the couch. He looked up at Marian, and that was a cool shot.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah, I agree. I mean, there was actually a second where the two of them look like siblings.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, she does seem to have warmed up to him, you know, and also at the Van Rhijns, Peggy has returned. Agnes was quite firm with Armstrong, you know, basically threatening to replace her if she's not kind to Peggy. And Armstrong was visibly upset over this. So, Tom, you know, what do you think? Do we feel sorry for her? How do we feel about Armstrong?

[Tom Meyers]

It's complicated. Right?

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah.

[Tom Meyers]

Agnes makes it clear that she can easily replace Armstrong, but Armstrong can't easily replace Agnes. The employer here had the upper hand, especially given the thousands of immigrants who were arriving in New York every year who were desperate for jobs. Forget workers rights or unemployment or pensions. Armstrong would be back in the market, competing for a job with young women, you know, who are decades younger than her. And we found out last season that she's also taking care of an elderly mother who seems to live down in the tenements.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and we have seen Bertha hiring and firing ladies maids and talking about her concern over the time that it would take to train them.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah, it would take time for Armstrong to be trained by a new mistress, you know, and build that trust that was so essential Between a mistress of the house and her lady's maid. And Armstrong recognizes as well that her working days are limited. Right. So it's heartbreaking. And yet Alicia, as Agnes, reminds her here, it is totally in her control. You know, just leave Peggy alone. Just don't be racist.

[Alicia Malone]

Exactly. And I think we have to give it up also to Deborah Monk, who doesn't excellent job at playing Armstrong. She is so often an unlikable character. I think it must be a real acting challenge.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah, indeed. She is not afraid, you know, to keep being unlikable.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah.

[Tom Meyers]

And you know, actually, just when you think that she might have gotten the message from Agnes. Take a listen.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

What's this?

[Tom Meyers]

I helped Bridget with the sewing. I couldn't do it all.

[Alicia Malone]

Is this some sort of trick? It seems as if Ms. Scott has.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

Done you a good turn, Ms. Armstrong.

[Narrator]

Aren't you going to say thank you?

[Deborah Campmeyer]

Thank you.

[Alicia Malone]

You're welcome.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

Bridget, come and help me. I confess, I am surprised.

[Tom Meyers]

That I.

[Alicia Malone]

Did you a favor.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

No, not exactly. I'm surprised you were allowed back into this house.

[Tom Meyers]

I have no quarrel with you, Ms. Armstrong. I mean it.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

But I promise, you do not want one with me.

[Tom Meyers]

Wow. Point for Peggy.

[Alicia Malone]

I love how strong Peggy is. You know, she lets Armstrong. No, not to test her.

[Tom Meyers]

And what struck me is, you know, at first, when Armstrong actually said thank you, I thought, oh, okay, maybe there's some progress being made. Maybe she's changing. But then, no, no, no. And I'm not sure if you remember the actual look on Armstrong's face when Peggy drops that line. You know, you don't want one with me. It's worth watching the scene again just for that look. I mean, Armstrong stops cold and removes her glasses, and you can just see something sinking in. I think on a meta level that we're coming back to a big theme here about change.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Meyers]

New York during the Gilded Age was a time of big changes for everyone. We've seen Agnes deal with change, and Mrs. Astor has dealt with change. And yes, now even Armstrong is. Is having a moment when she stops and absorbs how her world is changing. She has been told that an African American woman's presence is more vital to this household than her own. And it stops her.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, that's true. And speaking of change segue, another character who has experienced quite a change is Watson, Mr. Russell's valet. Oh, by the way, Tom, is it valid or valet?

[Tom Meyers]

Oh, you know, well, obviously, valet is the proper French pronunciation, but I believe that people pronounced it according to the British pronunciation, at least. They did in season one, where everybody was talking about so and so's valet. But now in this episode, we hear multiple cases of people saying valet. So it seems that this, too, could be an instance of change. Alicia.

[Alicia Malone]

All right, so we'll go with valet. So, you know Watson, Mr. Russell's valet, he has a. Who, we found out last episode, is a socialite called Flora MacNeil.

[Tom Meyers]

Yes. Who bites her tongue at dinners. Right. And in Today's episode, when Mr. McNeil arrives at the Russell house looking for Collier, Church realizes that he actually means Watson.

[Alicia Malone]

And church thought that McNeil was there to steal Watson to be his own valet, which seems rather bold. Yeah.

[Tom Meyers]

Although McNeil really isn't doing a great job of explaining to George why he is there. You know, he kind of sits nervously in George's study. It's all very awkward. And by the way, stealing a valet would be pretty major. I mean, the valet was the right hand man to the master of the house. I wouldn't want to be caught trying to steal George Russell's valet.

[Alicia Malone]

Absolutely not. But, you know, the thing that Mr. McNeil is concerned about is this secret getting out that his wife is the daughter of a servant, which doesn't seem that bad to me. But in this world, it was the kind of gossip that would ruin reputations.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah. Almost as bad, you know, as your chef being from Kansas.

[Alicia Malone]

Kansas.

[Tom Meyers]

Kansas. Look, do you remember last season when Larry made a crack to his mother, to Bertha over dinner about her ancestors pulling up potatoes? And now she was at the top of society. So I think you could also argue that this was the American dream. Right. The daughter of a valet was now in New York society.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Though clearly it would be better for appearances if Watson was still a banker. You know, Watson being a valet is a scandal.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah. And I'm sure that it would have been, but even that would have been kind of a farce. Okay. One of the chief criticisms that was directed at Gilded Age society was that it was all invented. It was all a cheap copy of European aristocracy. We didn't have those European class distinctions with titles that went back centuries. Here in the 19th century in New York, we had rapid fire fortunes that were being made by people who were moving to New York and building mansions. And the established New York society that was There, led by Mrs. Astor, was just trying to make sense of all of it. So I think that this horror, quote unquote, of Watson being exposed as the father of a socialite shows actually that everybody upstairs and downstairs were playing by these new rules. And that These were rules that society itself had invented.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, that's such a great insight. And it's really fascinating to me that the idea of the American dream would be one welcomed in some respects, but.

[Tom Meyers]

Not others, hidden by some.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, yeah. And okay, here's another hard turn because we have to head now to Newport because there is some, shall we say, sexy drama brewing.

[Tom Meyers]

Ah, yes. We meet Mrs. Susan Blaine, the young and wealthy widow who stays rather intriguingly year round in her old fashioned Newport cottage.

[Alicia Malone]

It's a very Victorian looking home, which, I don't know, it looked quite nice to me.

[Tom Meyers]

Beautiful. But Larry, you know, I think, catching on quickly that Mrs. Blaine thought that it was downright hideous, basically trashed it as they did a walkthrough. Okay, maybe that's a bit extreme. But Larry and Mrs. Blaine did immediately bond as they toured the house, talking about its urgent need for renovation.

[Alicia Malone]

And clearly she likes Larry. She hires him on the spot, much to Bertha's surprise. Bertha even tries to talk her out of it.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah, and tries to talk her out of joining Larry and his Harvard friends at the tennis tournament at the casino later that day. Which was a very funny exchange. But things progress quickly and soon Larry unveils his new plans for the house. Well, while she orders some champagne.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah.

[Tom Meyers]

How do we feel about this scene about day drinking? I mean, I'm all for the occasional daytime glass of champagne. No, here. I mean, something feels like it's either going too fast or it's going completely off the rails.

[Alicia Malone]

It does feel really fast.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah.

[Alicia Malone]

And things definitely heat up after the tournament because they share their first kiss and Larry decides to follow her inside her house. And then later, when Larry tiptoes back inside Maple House, he's met by an enraged Bertha who pleads with him to spend more time with suitable and younger women.

[Tom Meyers]

Susan Blaine appeals to me mostly because she's quite unlike those suitable young ladies. And I'm fairly certain you don't want me to elaborate on that.

[Alicia Malone]

Other young men deal with these things without causing comment.

[Tom Meyers]

Yes, they go to prostitutes. Would you prefer me to do the same?

[Alicia Malone]

I prefer there to be no scandal.

[Tom Meyers]

I can't believe this. Susan Blaine is a decent woman.

[Alicia Malone]

Decent women don't sleep with men young enough to be their son.

[Tom Meyers]

This one does. Keep your voice down. Look, I'm happy. Haven't you always said that all you want is my happiness?

[Alicia Malone]

Not at the expense of your good name. Oh, Larry really stands up for himself there.

[Tom Meyers]

I love this scene. I mean, for one thing, it really does feel like 5 o' clock in the morning and, you know, and Mom's been up all night waiting. She might be at the top of society, but Bertha is still a mother and she is mad.

[Alicia Malone]

And there was another cool shot where it looked like a crane. It went from, you know, Bertha looking out the window, it swooped down to Larry arriving. I mean, that was a shot that really stood out to me.

[Tom Meyers]

Me, too. Exactly. I thought that was beautiful.

[Alicia Malone]

And of course, you know, being a mother is a job that Bertha deeply cares about, but she's worried about a possible scandal that could hurt his chances with future women. And, you know, as Larry infers, probably her choice of suitable future women.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah, it seems like Bertha's primarily upset, you know, that he's with an older woman who seems also to have a dodgy reputation. But I think that we're seeing a double standard here. There's always the suggestion that boys will be boys, you know, and play around and even, as he says, go to prostitutes.

[Alicia Malone]

It's such a double standard. And the way that Larry mentions men going to sex workers, you know, he does it so casually. So was that something that was actually more acceptable than choosing the wrong woman?

[Tom Meyers]

I mean, acceptable. It wouldn't be something that you talked about with your family or your mom, you know, at 5 o' clock in the morning. But brothels really did abound in New York City during the Gilded Age. In the the book City of Eros, author Timothy Guilfoyle estimates that Manhattan had about 500 brothels in 1870. So there were probably many more. A decade later when our show takes place. There were establishments for all classes and for all tastes. And later, in a later scene, George literally says to Bertha, well, boys will be boys. So, yeah, I think that we see a double standard. You know, young women did not have the liberty to just play around.

[Alicia Malone]

Definitely not. But Bertha also has another issue on her mind. There's an opera war brewing between Mrs. Astor and herself. And then George has his own war brewing between the titans of industry and their poorly treated workers.

[Tom Meyers]

Lots of conflict between workers and owners, which is historically accurate. Yeah, the Gilded Age was a period of incredible wealth disparity. And we tend to focus today on those who were at the very top, those very few who had these vast fortunes and luxurious lives. But those industrial fortunes required the labor of a vast army of workers. Steel workers, iron workers, miners, and on and on. Factory workers, railroad employees, agricultural workers, and it goes on. And these working days were long. Conditions were dangerous, pay was low, and also even pay was getting worse. Because during this period, pay was often cut in order for the businesses to compete with each other or just make more money for themselves. And so during the 1870s and 1880s and for decades to come, workers increasingly organized and went on strike.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and in the last episode, we saw George pull together a meeting of all the big industrial titans.

[Tom Meyers]

Yes, they were trying to figure out how to come together, even as competitors, to limit the power of these newly.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

Organizing workers, which feels quite callous.

[Alicia Malone]

Although George really seems to believe that he is giving good jobs to people who need them. And, you know, George and Clay mention a few names and various organizations. So there's Bill Henderson, a worker for George's railroad empire in Pittsburgh. And, and they say that he represents the Amalgamated association of Steel Workers. So who were they? And is Bill Henderson a real person?

[Tom Meyers]

The union was real, actually, called the Amalgamated association of Iron and Steel Workers of North America. And it was formed in 1876, according to an article I found from 1892 that was published in the Pittsburgh Daily Post. The union then included about 60,000 iron and steel workers and was, according to the article, quote, without question, the most powerful independent labor organization in the world.

[Alicia Malone]

Wow. And how about Bill Henderson?

[Tom Meyers]

I think he was created for the show.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, yeah. Okay, gotcha. Well, Henderson will not be bought off with money. So George's solution is to invite him to New York for the full luxury treatment, staying in a fancy hotel, the Brunswick, which did exist.

[Tom Meyers]

It was fancy. It stood at the northwest corner of Madison Square at 26th and 5th Avenue. I found a photo of it from 1880, founded on the Museum of the City of New York's website. It shows a lovely brick hotel. Looks like it's seven floors tall with awnings that were pulled down on the rooms overlooking the park. And according to a fascinating article in the New York Times, in 1884, the Brunswick was quite popular with business travelers visiting the city from Chicago, St. Louis, Cincinnati, and yes, like Henderson, Pittsburgh.

[Alicia Malone]

Right. So Henderson gets, you know, five star business day in New York. But while George seems a little worried about him, he told the other robber barons he wasn't concerned about the Knights of Labor, even when he hears that their numbers are in the hundreds of thousands.

[Tom Meyers]

And they were. Yes, at this period. The Knights of Labor was a labor organization founded in 1869 that brought together workers of all types into what became for a time, the largest labor organization of its day. With a membership that peaked at 700,000 people in 1886. They pushed for an eight hour workday against child labor. And just Generally speaking, for better working conditions, child labor. Yes.

[Alicia Malone]

And you know, it kind of seems quite apt that while all of this very real hardship is going on, our wealthy friends are enjoying some tennis at the casino in Newport.

[Tom Meyers]

Completely oblivious. Yes. Although they were concerned about who to bet on.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And actually not everyone was enjoying the tennis because poor Marian has been set up on an awful date.

[Tom Meyers]

We've all been there and talk about day drinking. Yes. Yes. Marian has been set up by Aurora Fane with Edward Morgan, whom Agnes immediately identifies as the son of Arabella Morgan, who used to be a Winthrop.

[Alicia Malone]

Agnes always connecting those dots. So Morgan sounds familiar, but what about Winthrop?

[Tom Meyers]

Probably referring to the family of Robert Winthrop, who had made a fortune in banking and his family was directly descended from a founder of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. So Winthrop old society. Check.

[Alicia Malone]

That's why Agnes is excited. But he is a dud.

[Tom Meyers]

He is slurring. He is swerving. Yes. But fortunately, cousin Dashiell steps in.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes. Dashiell to the rescue. Oh, wait, should we call him Dashing Dashiell?

[Tom Meyers]

You know, that could be a coincidence. But this does remind me of something that Thomas Cockerell, who played Tom Raikes last season, mentioned in our interview with him. He pointed out that the names of several characters felt to him quite descriptive. Remember he told us that his character Tom Raikes, after all, was quite rakish.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes. So Dashiell could be Dashing, he could be Morgan could.

[Tom Meyers]

Want more gin. I'm just saying. Just saying. Maybe it's a coincidence.

[Alicia Malone]

I love it. I'm on board. And it's a very lucrative day for Daschle because Marion gives him a tip to bet on Dick Sears, who is a friend of Larry Russell in our story, but also a real life tennis great. I looked up the profile of Dick Sears on the International Tennis hall of Fame website and I had to have a chuckle at their description of him, which says he looks more like a college professor than the dominant tennis player of his generation.

[Tom Meyers]

But he did completely dominate at Newport. He won the US National Men's Singles championships at the casino every year from 1881 to 1887. It's an incredible record.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And not to mention he essentially had to play in a three piece suit. Can you imagine?

[Tom Meyers]

Pickleball, maybe lawn tennis?

[Alicia Malone]

Never croquet.

[Tom Meyers]

Sure, sure. And we see the suit. He is wearing a suit.

[Alicia Malone]

All right, Tom. Well, I have to tell you, I am dying to talk about what happens at the end of this episode though. Actually, first we should mention there is a new character. New character alert. It's Maud Beaton, played by Nicole Bride and Bloom, who is pretty, wealthy and possibly the secret daughter of Jay Gould.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah, that got my attention. And she immediately shines. And Oscar lights up in her presence as well. And I just. I don't know. I felt happy for him. He looks happy for once.

[Alicia Malone]

So it seems like Agnes would approve.

[Tom Meyers]

I think she would. And speaking of Agnes, did you notice that Maude told Oscar, Mrs. Drexel spoke of your mother the other day, to which Oscar replied, I love the Drexels. And as we have found out from talking to Christine Baranski last season, her late husband was related to the great Drexel family. You know, and Julian Felez told us that he sprinkles those Drexel references throughout the show.

[Alicia Malone]

That's so cool. Good catch there.

[Tom Meyers]

Keep your ears peeled for more Drexels.

[Alicia Malone]

So we'll see about Maud. You know, maybe she and Oscar will be friends or, like, accomplices of some.

[Tom Meyers]

Point or something more. Sure. I mean, Oscar does like to surround himself with intriguing women. Let us not forget his alliance that he made with a certain lady's maid last season.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes, this is what I want to get into. She's back. Our favorite character, Turner.

[Tom Meyers]

Oh, my God. Boy, is she back.

[Alicia Malone]

I mean, you and I knew they'd bring her back because she's just too good. But how about Bertha's reaction?

[Tom Meyers]

The whole thing was brilliant. I mean, the buildup, the waltz, the entire Russell family kind of lined up to finally meet Mr. And Mrs. Winterton. And then it's Turner, you know, and she's got this beaming, gotcha face, you know, that she has probably been waiting a year to deliver to Bertha. I mean, jaws drop, Alicia. Jaws drop.

[Alicia Malone]

It's so, so good. I rewatched that moment several times, but, well, that's. That's all we're left with. But I cannot wait to hear what the story is. How did she end up there? Will Bertha try and tear her down? Will she go after Bertha? I just have so many questions.

[Tom Meyers]

It's gonna be juicy. It's gonna be good.

[Alicia Malone]

I can't wait. All right, well, let's give ourselves a minute to compose ourselves, take a breath. We're gonna take a break. Then when we come back, we will be joined by two very special guests.

[Tom Meyers]

The brilliant production designer, Bob Shaw will be with us as will Deborah Campmeyer, who directed this episode. So stay listening. Be right back. Rated T for Teen. Each year, thousands of adults lose their shreds. It's an epidemic simply known as shred. Loss. But it doesn't have to be this way. Because rekindling your shred is as easy as playing the new Tony hawk's Pro Skater 3 and 4. With new parks, cross platform multiplayer and sick new game modes, we can put an end to shred loss everywhere. Hit the new Tony hawk's Pro Skater 3 and 4 and show the world that the shred's not dead. Pre order Tony hawk's Pro Skater 3 and 4 and play the Foundry demo. These little rooms big enough for a gathering of four. What was the point of them?

[Deborah Campmeyer]

My husband liked small rooms.

[Alicia Malone]

He said it was the only way.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

To keep warm without breaking the bank.

[Tom Meyers]

They don't reek of hospitality.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

Nor did he.

[Tom Meyers]

Ouch.

[Alicia Malone]

That was the intriguing Mrs. Blaine. New character alert.

[Tom Meyers]

Woo.

[Alicia Malone]

Woo.

[Tom Meyers]

Woo. Ding, ding, ding.

[Alicia Malone]

Leading her prospective new hire, Larry Russell on a tour of her outdated Newport cottage.

[Tom Meyers]

Yes. While dissing her late husband at every turn. That was a little uncomfortable. It even seemed to make Larry a little uncomfortable.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, fortunately, Larry had very quick on the spot recommendations for ways to improve and modernize her cottage and make it perfect for hosting parties.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah, it was almost like an HGTV show, like Fix Her Up, Newport Edition or something. Starring Larry Russell. But today, we're lucky to be joined by two people who actually know that scene and every scene in this episode very well.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes, we're so happy to be joined by production designer Bob Shaw and director Deborah Campmeyer. Now, we spoke to Bob Shaw in the first season of our podcast, and since then he's gone and added another Emmy award to his resume, his third Emmy win coming for his work on episode one, Season one of the Gilded Age. And Deborah Kampmeier is a talented director who has worked across film and television directing several acclaimed short and feature films, including Virgin with Elisabeth Moss and Hound Dog with Dakota Fanning.

[Tom Meyers]

Bob Shaw and Deborah Kampmeier. Thank you both for joining us today.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

Thank you so much. It's an honor to be here.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, Deborah, so much of your work, especially as a filmmaker, has focused on telling women's stories. So I'm curious to know from you where you see the gilded ages fitting in with your body of work. Because it's so fascinating that this is a world that was ruled by women, even though they didn't necessarily have much power in society.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

There's a lot of talk about the male gaze versus the female gaze, but for me, it's all about the female experience. As a woman, I don't really gaze. I'm experiencing the world. And I think there's so much space in the way Julian tells these stories about these amazing women, really from a full spectrum of class, of race, of age. And so it's just an incredible opportunity to dive into their interior lives, really, and to be able to hold on them. You know, there's so many moments we get to really hold on these women and see what's actually going on underneath this surface, underneath the facade they present, especially in this world, in this time, in this period.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah. Bob, turning to you for a moment now, when we spoke last season, you explained to us that as production designer, you're in charge of the way that this show looks. And this season, we've already spent time while here in Newport as well as Philadelphia and in Brooklyn and of course, in New York. I'm curious if the look has changed at all in the second season.

[Narrator]

Well, the biggest change is really adding more spaces, more buildings. And, you know, in this case, we had to deal with finding a place that was both once a grand mansion. For its day, we used Kingscote in Newport, which is more from the 1850s. It had never been updated, but it was very common for people to decide to update their home. So finding a house that looked like it needed a renovation and then figuring out what the renovation was was sort of an interesting challenge.

[Tom Meyers]

Mrs. Blaine's. That's Mrs. Blaine's cottage.

[Narrator]

Mrs. Blaine's house. But Larry also is a very fast worker in terms of how quickly he transformed the house that the Russells bought in Newport.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah, totally. And I can't wait to go inside that in just a moment to talk about how you use the Elms for that.

[Alicia Malone]

Deborah, for you, as a director, what's the challenge when you're coming into a series that already has an established look?

[Deborah Campmeyer]

I'm a guest on this show, and I have to think of myself that way. It's like on my features where I'm the writer, director, producer, editor. It's my party, Right. But this is their party, and it's a beautiful party. And, you know, it's like coming. It's like being a guest invited to a beautiful dinner where, like, I'm not going to come in and change the menu. I'm going to find out what's on the menu, and then I'm going to go find the perfect wine to pair with that meal. Right. That's my job when I come in to a show that's already been established, because this show is exquisite. Right. I mean, the detail that's gone into it from so many different artists. So my job is also to learn as much as I can about the people I'm collaborating with. You know, my brilliant dp, Manuel Billiter. I'm gonna go and watch his choices in season one and what resonates with me. And, oh, I love those, like, moving cameras and wide angles. And, you know, the way he's choosing to bring light into the room, I'm gonna lean into that also. You know, I. I listened to this podcast every moment of the week before I came into work. I listened to. I probably listened to every episode twice because it was like there was so much to learn. And the way you all dove into the history, I mean, I got research books, but listening to you all talk about each episode in depth in ways that I'd watched season one. I was obsessed with season one because, well, I had planned to watch it because I'd worked with Morgan on a feature, so I was seeking it out for that reason. But then I was hooked. Right. So then to listen to you all go into so much detail that I hadn't had time yet to fully explore or learn, to listen to Bob talk about the locations I was going to be going to. To listen to the way Michael or Sally were thinking about the scenes, the way the actors were thinking about the characters. It was like, wow, what a gift.

[Tom Meyers]

Thank you.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you all. It's just, like, to get to be on this podcast is such a treat.

[Alicia Malone]

And so then when you come on the set, how do you and Bob work together?

[Deborah Campmeyer]

Well, our work is primarily in prep. Like, Bob is showing me, like, in this episode, his ideas. He's got these exquisite drawings for the ball at the tennis casino that are just, like, mind blowing. The ideas he came up with. Right. And then, you know, in prep, I'm taking a look at it and I'm thinking about, oh, how am I going to play with this world he's creating? And then, you know, Manuel is going to do light tests on, like, are we using candlelight, real light, or fake light to go in these lanterns? You know, all of that is happening in prep. Right? Or, you know that beautiful shot that Manuel and I came up with of following the dress up, up the stairs and revealing the orchestra and then up over the roof and revealing the dancers was just a shot we were so excited about. But are we going to be able to get a crane that's big enough to give us that shot? Because the one we wanted is already rented on another production. And so you're tech scout and you're talking to your key grip and all of this is really being explored in prep. Would you agree, Bob?

[Narrator]

Yes. We open the set every day, particularly if it's new. And then once everything is settled and fine, then it is true that we're on to the next thing. But it's interesting that with Deborah and with Manuel, it's a danger just to be decorative on a show like this, as opposed to sort of an interactive space. And that's something that we talk about and try to work through in prep.

[Tom Meyers]

Well, one of those interactive spaces, obviously, was a casino. That gave us the finale that you were just talking about, Deborah. And it also gave us the other big scene, the tennis tournament. And it's interesting because we went to the casino in season one, but we really didn't spend as much time there. I mean, here in this episode, we really got a full tour of the place between these two big scenes. Deborah, I'd love to know what went into filming the tennis tournament scene, because there is so much happening there. Right. We've got a tennis match, a drunken suitor, a. We have Gladys and Marian bonding. We have Larry showing up with Mrs. Blaine. Could you kind of take us behind the scenes or what went into shooting that?

[Deborah Campmeyer]

Sure. Well, I did have this idea when I walked into that casino. You're just like, it's the real place. Right. And so it's the real place. We have the real costumes. It's so real and alive that you do want to use the space as much as possible. Right. And so I was immediately taken by the shape of it, this oval shape. And how can I play in this? In a way, 360 in this space. Right. But, you know, there's multiple scenes in this whole sequence that's written as one scene. Right. And so I really wanted to use this space by having an actor hand off the scene. Right. You have a scene, and then they move to another grouping and hand the scene off to that group. And then, you know, move to another group and hand the scene off there. So it was this. When you're actually shooting it, it's, you know, you have to be smart about your time. And luckily, I had an incredible ad. You know, Murphy was just amazing how he was able to help me structure the day so we could actually get it done. But it's just a real puzzle to put it together. And the shot that starts with the tennis ball coming up and being hit, and then it glides across the crowd and up to find Marian and Oscar and Edward Morgan and the Faines that we did not actually have a tennis ball. That's a CGI tennis ball. Because it was so specific. Right. And it had to be repeated because we ended up. The ball comes up, he hits, and then we pan across and we, you know, crane up and find our heroes. That was something that we programmed into the crane. It's a special machine so that it could repeat because we had to take our background and do what's called tiling them. So there are a hundred of them there. And then you move them over, you repeat the shot. It has to be exactly the same shot in your next grouping and your next grouping and your next grouping until you fill the space. And then you have the entire scene after that to catch as well. So it was just like. It was a lot of work with a lot of people collaborating to make it happen, you know, like every single one of those flowers I have to say that Bob puts on the set are real. They're live flowers. They're not plastic flowers. Like, every detail like that is considered by so many different departments. Yeah.

[Narrator]

Well, if you don't mind, I wanted to mention something about the tennis and the flowers being real was that at one point, word had gotten back to me that on day one of shooting, our on set, Dresser, who's wonderful, assumed that we would be changing the flowers and having different flowers for the other scene. In reality, we were actually just going to change a few things, change some ribbons and use mostly the same flowers. And they were on the verge of telling everyone that the flowers were being changed so that they could take them home. And if you remember, Deborah, I think I was down the road prepping something else on Bellevue. And I went, like, screaming down in my car, don't take the flowers.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

And then here comes Bob running up the steps, hollering. And I'm like, oh, no, I've just ruined the night.

[Narrator]

Shoot, when you're on set, you can't really get anybody on the phone because everyone has their ringers turned off or their phones turned off. And it was easier, since I was half a mile down Bellevue Avenue, to just run down this.

[Alicia Malone]

No, don't take the flowers, Bob. When talking about Newport and Maple House being shot at the Elms. And as well as being a beautiful space and historically correct. What is it about the Elms that you think is perfect for Bertha's mansion and Larry's first project as an architect, you know, character wise, you know, at.

[Narrator]

A certain point, we're going to run out of mansions in Newport. But the Elms is, to me, the most livable of the mansions I could imagine. Actually living there. It's a little bit more on a human scale compared to the breakers or. Or Marble House or something. But it was one of the grand mansions. And Bertha is not going to have a medium sized mansion, so.

[Alicia Malone]

And do you think about it in terms of how, you know, the Russells Newport mansion or cottage differs from their New York mansion?

[Narrator]

It has a different tone. It's a summer place. The furniture's all lighter. It's not. The colors are paler. It's got a more refreshing sort of look to it, which the elms already had. And the elms also didn't happen to have a lot of furniture in it. So we were able to bring in, you know, things in a different palette. So I would say palette was the main. Was the main difference.

[Alicia Malone]

You know, Deborah, you were saying how this is such a gift to have this incredible cast of actors. But what kind of feeling do you get? How do you know when you've got a take that it's right?

[Deborah Campmeyer]

For me, it's really intuitive, you know, I feel it like, you know, for example, in one of the Larry, Susan Blaine scenes when they're in the drawing room. It was very important to Laura. And I like Laura's incredible. I just adored working with her. And it was very important that Susan Blaine not just be like a cliche of an older woman coming and like a cougar predator getting this young man, but that she has a backstory. That she was essentially in this gilded cage, if you will, for a cliche. You know, when she married this man, she was suddenly trapped. And you know, her whole youth in a way, was stolen. And so when she's out of this marriage, through his death, there's this awakening happening in her. And in a way, she's the same emotional age as Larry. And Larry's suddenly bringing light and life into her home. And so it was very important to us that we show this need in her and this heart in her. And that it's not just using Larry or predatory.

[Narrator]

It's interesting cause she's sort of a variation on Lily Bart in House of Mirth in that she has some scandal attached to her. And at a certain point she has to sort of any port in the storm and make this marriage in order to continue to exist in society. And of course, the whole point of House of Mirth is that Lily Bart can't bring herself to do that. And that is her demise. And she's still quite young. It definitely says something about the lifespan of a woman's desirability at the Time. And, you know, you would see Laura Benanti, who's obviously a very beautiful woman and looks quite young. And the idea that, oh, he's seeing this older woman, it hardly tracks visually, right?

[Deborah Campmeyer]

And so then going back to that idea of how do you know when you've got. So that moment where she's talking to him and she says, you know, she's beginning a new life in this house, a new life with new people. And she just fills up with tears. Right. It's so emotional that I'm feeling it. I know that moment. We told that whole story that she, as an actress, was hoping to tell in just that line. Because you feel it clicks. That moment is so alive. And you always want to be ready to catch that alive moment. Because that's what you're looking for as you're letting these genius talents dance. Is the moment of life. When it actually is that inspired moment that comes through them that you can't plan, that you can't repeat. And so that's what I'm always looking for. And I know I've got it when I feel it in my own body or my own heart.

[Tom Meyers]

Deborah, what is it like to work, you know, with one of these locations, to shoot something in a real place like the Elms?

[Deborah Campmeyer]

To me, it feels like a character. Like the place is a character and the actors are in relationship with that character. Right. You know, it does a lot for you, being in a place like that. We walked through the ballroom, we brought them into the drawing room. And it's essentially a 180 of that space. Which is a lot of work for Manuel to light every single room we move through. But, like, to be able to do that because you have a place that actually is the real thing, is, I think, inspiring. I think it's exciting for the audience to get to feel the world to that degree.

[Narrator]

One of the things that people, I think, always find interesting is that we use bits and pieces of the mansions. So the Russell New York kitchen, it got to be very confusing for people. Because the Russell's New York kitchen actually is the basement of the Elms. And the second floor of the Elms is the exterior of Bertha's bedroom in New York. So we use part of the upper hallway. And so sometimes you do have to be a little bit of the traffic cop. Because they'll be wanting to do a move like, no, no, you can't move over that far. Cause then you'll see the entrance to Bertha's bedroom, which is in New York. And so, you know, there's just bits and pieces we're using every square inch of. Of Newport.

[Alicia Malone]

And another location we get to see in Newport, which you mentioned before, Bob, is Mrs. Blaine's house, which has a very different look to Bertha's cottage. So can you tell us about this space and also what it said about the way that maybe interior design was changing at this time?

[Narrator]

Well, it's interesting because so much of our story is interwoven with the historical Vanderbilts. And one of the Vanderbilts married someone who used to spend summers with their family at Kingscote, which was once considered the grandest mansion in Newport. And it's actually rather small, and the rooms are small. As Larry points out to Mrs. Blaine. We were considering other houses. And at the late. Fairly late in the game, I said, you know, I'm really feeling kind of strongly that we should be looking at Kingscote because I had an idea of what Larry would do to it. And other homes that existed just didn't lend themselves to the story as well.

[Alicia Malone]

So you are your own research guide right now?

[Narrator]

I mean, for certain things, I need to look at a piece of research. And then you have to be careful because often I see a detail that I like in one of the houses. And then I say, oh, I'm going to use this for this set that we're building. And then next thing you know, someone wants to build, do a scene in the room that I took the idea from. And it's like, well, it's going to look awfully similar to this set that we did because that's where the detail came from. That's happened a couple times.

[Tom Meyers]

Devorah, if you don't mind, I'd like to take us back to the casino for a moment for the grand finale. You know, the other big scene there. And of course, Turner's big reappearance. Wow. I mean, dramatic buildup to that. What went into making this reveal? And was it just me or was the entire thing set to music? I mean, it's like the whole thing was choreographed.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

The whole thing is choreographed so that as Ward McAllister is leading these two new people to Bertha, who are gonna hopefully give her a lot of money for her opera house. You're following them and we had the lanterns. It was very important that we get this build of their walk up without revealing who it is. And then to get to see Bertha, see who it is before we see who it is. And then when we see who it is, it's just so naughty, really. It's just incredible.

[Tom Meyers]

And the Face that Turner makes. Dude, that face. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

Yeah. It's so fun.

[Alicia Malone]

I love how her face is obscured by other heads and then they part. It's like the seas part and she comes waltzing in there. It's such a great scene. And, you know, one storyline that Tom and I have not talked about yet is Jack's alarm clock. His faulty alarm clock. And I was curious as I was watching this, Bob, do you get involved with those kind of details, like how to source a. A period specific alarm clock that can be dismantled?

[Narrator]

Yes, with the prop master. And it's a very specific prop like, that has to go through many levels of approval. The director has to approve it. Julian certainly has to approve it. And then we have to find it or find something that we can alter. And, you know, that's a little easier than it used to be because you could have been trying to rummage through shop after shop until you found something and now you go online and you type it in and then you bid on it or whatever. But it takes a real committee to decide on things like that.

[Alicia Malone]

Is it easier to. Now that season one of the Gilded Age is out and people have an idea of what it is to be able to source various materials?

[Narrator]

Actually what happens is now that the series is out, people are saying, oh, I have a thing that belonged to my grandmother. You might want it for the Gilded Age. And more often than not, it's like, well, this is very nice piece, but it's from the 20s. Because to most people, like, old is old. And it happens all the time. Oh, we should use this building. And it's like, well, that's from 1910 and we're in 19. You know, we're in 1884. That's what happens now when people know the series. Everybody has, you know, I have a fan. I think it belonged to my grandmother or my great grandmother.

[Alicia Malone]

It's like Antiques Roadshow or something.

[Narrator]

Yeah, yeah, kind of. And it's like, what? This is a very lovely piece that you can treasure, but it's worth nothing.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah.

[Tom Meyers]

Ouch. So interesting. And when you're sourcing, you know, talking about sourcing and choosing which pieces to use or even which fabrics. I was reading an interview, Bob, with you in Vanity Fair, where you said that you need to edit down the fabrics and the furnishings when you're creating a look for a set. And you said that you almost audition them yourselves, telling the ones that don't make it. Thank you for coming.

[Narrator]

I do, I do. I look at the pictures and I put everything on the board. And then when we decide something isn't going to make the final cut, I always say, thank you for coming. And, you know, you'll get your heart set on one fabric, and you think it's going to be, as we always say, the Rosetta Stone. And then you pin other things around it, and it gets nudged out of the pole position because it might be beautiful on its own, but it's not working with everything else. And then we also. I mean, like, with wallpapers, we always have to tone them down. They're too graphic. And I always say that certain things shouldn't become another character in the scene. And certainly wallpaper shouldn't distract from people who are having a conversation, even if historically it might have.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, Bob Shaw and Deborah Katmire, thank you so much for talking to Tom and I on the official Gilded Age podcast.

[Deborah Campmeyer]

Thank you.

[Alicia Malone]

Tom. How about that? I can't believe that Deborah listened to our podcast. I mean, I feel like we can say that we're influencers now. We're influencers.

[Tom Meyers]

Crazy. Crazy to think that she. I think she even said she listened to some episodes more than once. So thank you. We are deeply honored. Thank you, Deborah. And I just love the thought of Bob running down Bellevue Avenue towards the casino to stop everybody from taking flowers from the set because they have to reuse it for the other scene taking place at the casino. It's just amazing to think of all of those little details.

[Alicia Malone]

I know. There's so much happening at once. You know, Bob was in several different locations and then having to keep on top of. Of all the details, like the flowers.

[Tom Meyers]

Yeah, and I'm sure he told some of the flowers, thank you for coming. But now, bye bye. Auditioning. Even the flowers.

[Alicia Malone]

I love that. That was sweet. All right, Tom. Well, we have to say goodbye, but never fear, we'll be back soon with another episode of the official Gilded Age.

[Tom Meyers]

Podcast, and we'll have more interviews and facts galore. And new episodes of the HBO original series the Gilded Age air Sundays on Max. And after you watch the show, make sure you tune into the podcast, also available on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Talk soon.

[Alicia Malone]

Bye bye.

[Tom Meyers]

This has been the official Gilded Age Podcast, written, hosted and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Meyers. Our supervising producer is Andrew Pemberton Fowler.

[Alicia Malone]

Our editor is Trey Boody. With special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt and Siobhan Slater from hbo and Hannah Pettison and Amy Machado from pod.

[Tom Meyers]

People, listen to the official Gilded Age podcast after each episode airs on Mac or wherever you find podcasts.

[Alicia Malone]

Want even more extra content and behind the scenes moments from the Gilded Age? Follow us on Facebook and Instagram Gildedage HBO to join the conversation.

[Tom Meyers]

Today, the official Gilded Age Podcast is a production of HBO in partnership with Pod People.

[Alicia Malone]

Pod People.