S2 Ep. 3: “Head to Head” with Michael Engler and Kasia Walicka-Maimone

Summary

The Official Gilded Age Podcast
Season 2, Episode 3: “Head to Head” with Michael Engler and Kasia Walicka-Maimone
Release Date: November 13, 2023

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Introduction

In Season 2, Episode 3 of The Official Gilded Age Podcast, hosts Tom Myers and Alicia Malone delve deep into the intricacies of the HBO series "The Gilded Age." Titled “Head to Head,” this episode features insightful discussions with director and executive producer Michael Engler and acclaimed costume designer Kasia Walicka-Maimone. The conversation navigates through pivotal scenes, character developments, historical contexts, and the meticulous craftsmanship behind the show's stunning visuals.

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Episode Overview

Main Themes:

• Character Dynamics: Focus on Bertha Russell and George Russell's strained relationship.
• Historical Accuracy: Exploration of real historical events intertwined with the show's narrative.
• Costume and Set Design: Insights into the creation and evolution of character wardrobes and sets.
• Behind-the-Scenes Process: Collaboration between directors, designers, and actors to bring the 1880s New York elite to life.

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Key Discussions and Insights

1. Pivotal Scenes and Character Development

The episode opens with a detailed analysis of Bertha Russell’s strategic move to include Mrs. Winterton at the Russell House’s tea in aid of the Metropolitan Opera House. This decision not only heightens the social dynamics but also underscores the underlying tensions between traditional patrons and the emerging elite.

Tom Myers [03:05]: "It all kicks off with shots of delicious cakes, the Russell House is getting ready to host a tea in aid of the Metropolitan Opera House."

Bertha's manipulation of George Russell, leveraging his guilt over his past with Turner (now Mrs. Winterton), showcases her cunning nature and sets the stage for intense confrontations.

Alicia Malone [12:05]: "Decision? I call that betrayal."

2. Historical Context and Accuracy

The hosts and guests discuss the real-life significance of the Metropolitan Opera House's opening alongside the Academy of Music's season, emphasizing the competition and social rivalry of the era.

Tom Myers [05:45]: "Was a real slap in the face. And this opening night Face off is historically true."

They also shed light on the transatlantic ocean liners, particularly Cunard, highlighting their importance in the Gilded Age for transporting the elite between continents.

Tom Myers [15:09]: "These were the great days of transatlantic ocean liners... the only way to cross the Atlantic."

3. Costume Design and Visual Storytelling

Kasia Walicka-Maimone elaborates on the evolution of costumes from Season 1 to Season 2, emphasizing the shift from establishing characters to enhancing their development through fashion.

Kasia Walicka-Maimone [02:23]: "season two is... watching them all playing that game and working their opportunities and around the obstacles each of them has."

Specific characters like Mrs. Winterton receive a complete costume overhaul to reflect her newfound status and transformation, blending conservativeness with feminine elegance.

Michael Engler [46:56]: "creating an image that is resonating, something extraordinary, conservative, very restrained. At the same time, beautifully feminine."

The episode also highlights the meticulous design process behind large-scale scenes, such as the Easter Parade, ensuring each costume aligns with the character's emotional and social journey.

Kasia Walicka-Maimone [40:25]: "We thought this would be a wonderful way... to express where they were emotionally."

4. Behind-the-Scenes Collaborations

Michael Engler and Kasia discuss their collaborative process, emphasizing trust and mutual understanding in bringing the show's aesthetic to life. They highlight the balance between historical accuracy and creative interpretation, ensuring that costumes not only reflect the era but also the characters' personal narratives.

Kasia Walicka-Maimone [37:39]: "What comes with this also is this feather knowledge that we as a team... we all grew. We all learned."

5. Thematic Elements: Forgiveness and Betrayal

A recurring theme in the episode is the exploration of forgiveness and betrayal, particularly through Bertha Russell's interactions with George Russell. The hosts draw parallels between various character arcs, highlighting how personal conflicts mirror broader societal tensions of the Gilded Age.

Tom Myers [13:00]: "This has happened to Arthur, Peggy's father... there is clearly a theme here, right, about forgiveness."

6. Representation of Historical Figures

The episode features a discussion on the portrayal of Oscar Wilde, examining how the show integrates real historical figures into its fictional narrative. They explore the challenges of accurately depicting Wilde's flamboyant persona and the critical reception of his early works.

Alicia Malone [28:07]: "Oscar Wilde, of course... he was already famous for his witty writing and his poetry."

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Notable Quotes

• Tom Myers [19:08]: "Reverend Forte says... how to stay alive."
• Kasia Walicka-Maimone [50:04]: "Mrs. Blaine… a demonstration of seductiveness."
• Michael Engler [33:27]: "Michael Engler has a long association with Julian Fellowes... and Wes Anderson."

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Conclusions

Season 2, Episode 3 of The Official Gilded Age Podcast offers a rich exploration of the narrative and visual elements that define the HBO series. Through engaging discussions with Michael Engler and Kasia Walicka-Maimone, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the show's intricate character dynamics, historical depth, and stunning costume design. The episode effectively bridges the gap between historical fact and dramatic fiction, providing fans with both entertainment and educational insights into the opulent yet tumultuous Gilded Age.

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Additional Highlights

• Union Struggles: The episode touches upon labor disputes within George Russell's company, reflecting the broader labor movements of the time.

  Tom Myers [26:11]: "Baron to describe himself, which Henderson picks up on quickly."

• Educational Endeavors: A segment highlights Peggy’s ambition to support Booker T. Washington’s Tuskegee Institute, emphasizing the era's educational reforms.

  Tom Myers [16:49]: "Booker T. Washington was an extraordinary person... he opened the school on July 4, 1881."

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Behind the Episodes Loop

The episode seamlessly intertwines fictional drama with real historical events, creating a compelling narrative that is both informative and entertaining. By inviting key creative figures behind the show, the podcast provides an insider's perspective on the making of The Gilded Age, from script to screen.

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Stay Tuned: For more in-depth discussions, behind-the-scenes insights, and exclusive interviews, continue following The Official Gilded Age Podcast on your preferred podcast platform or on Max alongside the HBO series.

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This summary is intended for fans and new listeners alike, offering a comprehensive overview of the episode’s content without the need to listen to the podcast directly.

Transcript

[Tom Myers]

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[Alicia Malone]

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[Michael Engler]

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[Tom Myers]

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[Michael Engler]

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[Tom Myers]

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[Michael Engler]

Who'S with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals.

[Tom Myers]

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[Michael Engler]

Think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella.

[Tom Myers]

Edu.

[Michael Engler]

She'S here.

[Tom Myers]

She's here. I just saw her upstairs.

[Alicia Malone]

Who is?

[Tom Myers]

Adelheid, you're shaking.

[Alicia Malone]

Calm down.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

No.

[Michael Engler]

I must tell you, Miss Turner, the.

[Tom Myers]

Mistress'S lady's maid is here. Upstairs.

[Michael Engler]

Why?

[Tom Myers]

Does she want her job back? No, she's here for Mrs. Russell's opera tea. As a guest.

[Michael Engler]

What? She came in and handed me her coat.

[Tom Myers]

And Mr. Church announced her as Mrs. Winterton. I don't understand.

[Alicia Malone]

Neither do I.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Wake up.

[Tom Myers]

This is America. You can be anything you want.

[Alicia Malone]

I should know.

[Tom Myers]

Hello to all of you fellow fans of history and opulence and Aunt Agnes. Sassy asides, I'm Tom Myers from the Bowery Boys Podcast. And welcome back to the official Gilded Age podcast.

[Alicia Malone]

This is your companion to the HBO original series, the Gilded Age, Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies. Now, Tom, in the last episode, we spoke about playing tennis in suits and the shock return of Turner.

[Tom Myers]

You mean Mrs. Winterton, right. Well, in this episode, we'll talk more about her society, glow up the rift she causes between Bertha and George, and we'll even go to the theater with Oscar Wilde.

[Alicia Malone]

We'll also be speaking to director and executive producer Michael Engler and costume designer Kasha Feliska Mamon.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Now that we've established all characters and that we know how the world works, the fun of season two is that we watch them all playing that game and working their opportunities and around the obstacles each of them has in a way that we now know as much about the world as they do.

[Alicia Malone]

So what do you think, Tom? Should we get into it?

[Tom Myers]

Let's do. It's season two, episode three, Head to Head, written by Julian Fellowes and Sonya Warfield and directed by Michael Engler.

[Alicia Malone]

It all kicks off with shots of delicious cakes, the Russell House is getting ready to host a tea in aid of the Metropolitan Opera House. And we immediately hear that Ward McAllister is bringing Mrs. Winterton. And I was surprised that Bertha is okay with this.

[Tom Myers]

And it's not just because it makes good tv. No, Berthe is okay with it because she wants the Wintertons to take a box at the new Met, even if they keep their old box at the old Academy of Music. Why not be patrons of both?

[Alicia Malone]

Well, George seems to think that they might be punished for that. He says. Isn't lending status to the new house a serious crime?

[Tom Myers]

But Bertha isn't concerned, and she feels she might actually have the upper hand here with Turner. After all, Bertha knows Turner's big secret.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, when Mrs. Winterton arrives at the Russells, she saunters in as if she wasn't just working there. And understandably, everyone else in the house is shocked to see her and that she's announced as a guest. Adelheid runs downstairs and screams, she's here.

[Tom Myers]

By the way, Kelly Curran playing Turner is loving this. You can just see how much fun she's having with this role.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, my gosh, the faces she makes, I'm sure, have launched a thousand memes.

[Tom Myers]

A thousand Turner memes. And poor Edelheid is really just in shock. I mean, she even bumps into George Russell. As George and Church are exchanging knowing glances. Bertha had warned Church, right, About a surprise guest, but he clearly hadn't expected her. Although after what he'd already learned about Mr. Watson's story, I mean, come on, it's clear that social mobility is alive and well among the Russell staff. Some people are going up and some are going down.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. I love how Borden says, in America, you can be anything you want. I should know. And it does seem like the American dream to switch classes like this. But was that actually common for a servant to become a lady?

[Tom Myers]

I believe that that would have been exceedingly rare. Right, which is why everybody is speechless here. Although many domestic workers in New York at the time probably viewed their positions, you know, especially in grand houses like the Russells, as already being a step up the ladder from where many of them had started. But Turner becoming a lady, I mean, that was shocking.

[Alicia Malone]

So there was a lot happening at this opera Tea. Bertha is now on the board of the Met. And we hear that the new opera house will open on the same night as the Academy season is due to start, which is not well received. But by Mrs. Asta and Agnes, this.

[Tom Myers]

Was a real slap in the face. And this opening night Face off is historically true. The new Metropolitan Opera house opened on October 22, 1883, the very same night that the Academy of music opened its 1883 season. And the Met really did open with a performance of Gounod's Faust, starring our favorite Swedish singing sensation, Alicia Christina Nielsen, whom we met in that very first episode. Yeah.

[Alicia Malone]

So then I suppose that opera lovers did have to choose which performance to go to. Okay, so in our story, the wealthy are being forced to pick sides. The metal, the Academy. But Bertha seems to be pressuring Ward McAllister to also choose between supporting her or supporting Mrs. Astor.

[Tom Myers]

He's made it clear to Bertha that he couldn't possibly cross his mystic rose, Mrs. Astra. And yet he sticks around to lend some sort of support to Bertha. So he's kind of playing both sides here, isn't he?

[Alicia Malone]

Well, absolutely. He's attending both tees.

[Tom Myers]

Yes. He's literally playing both sides of 61st Street. I mean, he's ducking out of Bertha's party to sneak across the street to Agnes and Mrs. Astor's Tea for the Academy. And quite a crossing it was, by the way. He was dodging carts and people and horses. It was very funny. Watch your step, Ward. And by the way, I was also struck by how much busier 61st street got over the past year. Busier and dirtier.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. There was lots of activity. And that was a funny moment. It was almost as if Ward was doing, like, a walk of shame, you know, rushing across the road, trying not to let anyone see him. Nathan Lane brings so much physicality to Ward.

[Tom Myers]

He does. Yeah. There was nothing inconspicuous about his sneaking across the street. He's immediately ushered into Agnes's party, which is being held at the request, or at the command, really, of Mrs. Astor. Did you notice that Agnes keeps calling her Lena?

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, she likes to use that nickname.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. I mean, I think it was just used by her closest friends. I don't think we could have gotten away with it.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

No.

[Tom Myers]

But I'm actually kind of glad that Agnes can. You know, they're close. But Mrs. Astor is shocked at Bertha's impertinence. Right. In pushing forward with the Met opera and even joining its board, it is really a direct affront on her. She says, after all, didn't I make her what she is today? To which Agnes snarks. Gratitude is not a natural instinct in that class.

[Alicia Malone]

That class. And then Ward says no to more tea because he's had plenty, and informs Mrs. Astor about the Met opening on the same night as the academy. So Mrs. Astor springs into action, and Agnes is very ready to help. There must be room for two opera houses in the city, like New York.

[Michael Engler]

Nonsense.

[Tom Myers]

Now, what can we do?

[Michael Engler]

Give us orders. In your letter, you said you're at a task for me.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes, Agnes, I would like you to write to the Order members. Say that you've heard a rumor that if any of them are thinking of taking a box at the Metropolitan, their box at the Academy will be removed.

[Tom Myers]

Goodness.

[Alicia Malone]

I can, too, as that would make the threat official.

[Michael Engler]

But you can. Have you got all that, Ms. Scott?

[Tom Myers]

Every word.

[Michael Engler]

We'll begin the letters at once, won't we, Miss Scott?

[Alicia Malone]

Of course. Thank you.

[Tom Myers]

I think I'll take my leave before.

[Alicia Malone]

You start handing out weapons. If only it were that simple.

[Tom Myers]

I love how proactive Agnes is here. I mean, we are really seeing a fighting side to her, you know? And meanwhile, Aurora quickly gets out of there. She is also kind of playing both sides. Mm. She's become quite cozy with Bertha and obviously is close to Mrs. Astor.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I think she's trying to stay neutral, but I'm not sure if that would be possible.

[Tom Myers]

Probably not.

[Alicia Malone]

So, in real life, would there have been this much hostility from the old Academy crowd toward those supporting the Met?

[Tom Myers]

Well, I think it would have made sense if there were. Right. For one thing, we're talking about a business. An opera house was very expensive. Still is expensive, but was very expensive to run, and often lost a lot of money. And the Academy wanted to keep the new families there, at least coming and supporting it financially. But obviously, the Vanderbilts and the others were tired of sitting down in the main auditorium and looking up at the Astors and Rhinelanders and the rest of them up in those 18 boxes.

[Alicia Malone]

So they started to leave.

[Tom Myers]

Yes. And the new families leaving the Academy really, I think, rang a few alarm bells. Mrs. Astor would obviously lose some opportunities to sort of strut her stuff up there. But on a more basic level, the Academy could lose a lot of money. It could even shut down. And those millionaires down in the main auditorium, as we've seen, didn't feel any loyalty to it. They were only too happy to head off to the Met, where they could become subscribers and, in real life, pay $15,000 to secure a box, which, using the same estimates, would be around $450,000 today.

[Alicia Malone]

Wow. Still a lot of money.

[Tom Myers]

A lot.

[Alicia Malone]

So, back in our story, just as Bertha was wrapping up her tea, Mrs. Winterton approaches. Wait, should we call her Mrs. Winterton? Or Turner?

[Tom Myers]

I think we have to call her Mrs. Winterton. Right? I mean, that is what Church instructs his staff. It is her name now.

[Alicia Malone]

Okay, so we'll listen to church and it's Mrs. Winterton from now on. Anyway, the war between these ladies may even be hotter than the opera war. Because Mrs. Winterton makes it clear she's not going to roll over and simply obey Bertha. She sideswipes Bertha with a revelation.

[Tom Myers]

Yes. Mrs. Winterton drops a reference to some sort of relationship she's had with George Russell. She tells Bertha. He never told you about us. Funny, I thought that's why I was sacked. Because you were jealous.

[Alicia Malone]

Such a low blow. And then Bertha confronts George and is extremely upset to learn how Turner had tried to seduce George. Which we saw last season. By climbing into his bed naked.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Nothing happened. As soon as I knew it wasn't you, I got out of bed.

[Tom Myers]

Did she?

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Not immediately. So I ordered her to leave.

[Tom Myers]

But you never told me.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Because there was nothing to tell.

[Michael Engler]

It seems to me there was a great deal to tell.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

She didn't matter to me in the least. And there was no chance anything was going to happen. But I knew you depended on her. It didn't make sense to blow up the house because of her stupid mistake.

[Tom Myers]

So you allowed me to be waited on.

[Michael Engler]

To have my hair arranged, my clothes chosen. My bath run by a woman who'd been naked with my husband. It's disgusting.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

I'm sorry if it was a bad decision.

[Tom Myers]

Decision? I call that betrayal.

[Alicia Malone]

Wow. Give Carrie Coon all the awards for that scene. You can just see all the emotions play on her face. You know, there's confusion, then there's shock and sadness. And then anger.

[Tom Myers]

Raw anger. I love how raw that anger is. It seems so believable. And, you know, this also underscores the relationship, you know, that a lady at the house had with her lady's maid. Running the bath and doing her hair, et cetera. It was so intimate, and so much trust was required. And that trust had been violated by her maid and by her husband. And I think it catches George off guard. Right. We're not used to seeing George Russell sorry about anything. He usually exudes confidence and control. But here he's clearly screwed up. And he kind of seems uncertain about what to do next.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. I think he's realizing he should have told Bertha what had happened immediately. I mean, he threw Turner out as fast as possible. But as Bertha says to him, you are responsible for your own inaction.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. And George doesn't know what else he can say. Alicia, we have seen this before. Here is another character who is asking for forgiveness and it's not being granted. This has happened to Arthur, Peggy's father. And earlier we even saw Bannister tell church that he wasn't ready to forgive him for writing that sneaky letter to Agnes that nearly got him fired. So there is clearly a theme here, right, about forgiveness.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And it's going to take a little while for Bertha to forgive George for this.

[Tom Myers]

Probably will. Although there is an opportunity, because by the end of the episode, Bertha reads that the Duke of Buckingham is arriving in two weeks on one of the Cunard ships, the SS Servia. Now, Mrs. Winterton had already told Bertha that she planned to entertain the Duke when he visited Newport. And Bertha smells an opportunity.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. She uses George's guilt to get him to ask his contact at Cunard where the Duke will be staying in New York. She's cooking up some kind of revenge plot against Mrs. Winterton, and I am here for it. Yes, but, Tom, I know that Cunard is a company that is still in operation today with various cruises and whatnot, but what was its importance during the Gilded Age?

[Tom Myers]

Well, these were the great days of transatlantic ocean liners. And Cunard was one of the handful of major players, along with the White Star Line, who would gain infamy with the sinking of the RMS Titanic in 1912. We've discussed how the Gilded Age elite regularly traveled to Paris and London and throughout Europe. Ocean liners were their only way to cross the Atlantic. So all of our main characters here would have been up to speed on all of the main ocean liner companies, just like we are today about our airline options. And the Servian that's mentioned here was a real liner. Cunard had taken her into service just two years before our show takes place in 1881.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, a character who is hopeful to do some traveling segue is Peggy. She is excited to hear about an article T. Thomas Fortune will be writing in Alabama about Booker T. Washington and what was called the Tuskegee Normal and Industrial Institute. Now, I don't know much about Booker T. Washington, except that he did a lot for the education of black people at this.

[Tom Myers]

Yes, he did. Yeah, he was an extraordinary person. Booker had been born into slavery in Virginia in 1856, where he lived and was forced to work alongside his family on a plantation as a child. After slavery was abolished when he was nine years old, his family relocated to West Virginia. And there, Booker taught himself how to read. He attended school. He made money by working in mines, and then at 16, he moved back to Virginia to attend the Hampton Normal and Agricultural Institute.

[Alicia Malone]

And when we say it's a normal institute, that means it's a teaching institution, is that right?

[Tom Myers]

That's right. Teaching teachers. The Hampton Institute dates back to just after the Civil War. In 1866, Booker T. Washington studied here. Then he attended seminary school and then returned to Hampton as a teacher himself. And it was then in 1881, that a new school was being established way down in the Deep south in Tuskegee, Alabama. The Tuskegee Normal School for Colored Teachers. Its leaders wrote to the Hampton Institute up in Virginia asking for a recommendation for a teacher and principal for their new school. And Booker T. Washington got the job.

[Alicia Malone]

And when was this?

[Tom Myers]

He opened the school on July 4, 1881, and first using space that was provided by a church. But the following year, the school purchased a 100 acre former plantation which was then extensively developed and buildings were constructed by the students themselves. So this really was all happening at the time of our story.

[Alicia Malone]

It's really impressive. And Peggy wants to see the opening of the new dormitory herself. She convinces Tito Misfortune to take her along to Alabama. Now, he knows that this trip, A, may cause scandal because he's married and traveling with a single woman, and B, that Alabama is a dangerous place for black people to visit.

[Tom Myers]

Right. And he's not the only one worried about this. Dorothy, Peggy's mother, is deeply concerned. As soon as Peggy tells her about her plans to travel to Alabama, I think she sees that Peggy has been somewhat sheltered from all of this. Because Peggy's grown up in Brooklyn, she's never traveled to the South. She reminds Peggy that she's never been south of the Mason Dixon Line. You don't seem to understand that once you cross that line, you are no longer human. You must promise me to always stay with your group.

[Michael Engler]

Never go out alone.

[Tom Myers]

I can promise that.

[Michael Engler]

Do not make eye contact with any white folks.

[Tom Myers]

Don't speak to them. Even the slightest gesture or look can be misconstrued. You're telling me to be subservient? I'm telling you how to stay alive.

[Michael Engler]

And if it were up to me, you would not be going at all. Well, I have to go.

[Tom Myers]

I need this. I need to show the world that there are young colored people really making something of their lives. It gives me a purpose. And if I can put my whole self into my work, then I won't have a spare second to think about my poor boy. It's a very emotional scene. And we see Peggy is Obviously still suffering and living with her loss. And we also see a generational divide here between mother and daughter who have had very different experiences as black women. Yeah.

[Alicia Malone]

And, you know, this is post Civil War, so obviously slavery had been abolished, but there was still a lot of racism in the South.

[Tom Myers]

And in the north, too. Yeah, but especially in the South. And it took many different forms. But even during Reconstruction, horrible violence and terror against blacks was widespread in the south, committed by individuals, by mobs, by terrorist groups like the Ku Klux Klan. And this included lynchings in which blacks were killed by white mobs, sometimes actually aided by law enforcement. Three years ago, the Equal Justice Initiative issued a report that documented nearly 2,000 lynchings of black people by white mobs that took place during reconstruction alone. Another 4,500 more taking place from 1877 to 1950.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, gosh, it's horrific. And it's just no wonder. Why? Dorothy is very concerned for her daughter.

[Tom Myers]

She has every right to be. But Peggy is determined to go.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. All right. Well, just like the show, we have to change the mood quickly because Aunt Ada has a date.

[Tom Myers]

I think that their proximity to the Russell house has inspired Ada to do more hosting. She even says as much. Jack and Bannister, by the way, have never been so busy. And now they are throwing another luncheon. Another party, this time for Reverend Forte, Ada, Agnes, Cousin Dashiell, Marian and the Fanes.

[Alicia Malone]

And at this luncheon, Agnes notices how Ada is wanting to impress Reverend Forte, who is enjoying himself. And Agnes tries to catch Ada out when the conversation moves to watercolour paintings. Take a listen.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

How pleasing. The showy oil paintings of the masters normally get all the attention, but watercolors.

[Tom Myers]

Have a champion in me. Oh, me too.

[Alicia Malone]

I just love them.

[Michael Engler]

Really, Ada, I'd never heard you say that. Which watercolorist do you especially favor?

[Alicia Malone]

I know you mean to catch me out, but it happens that I admire the German painter Adolf Menzel.

[Tom Myers]

A marvelous fellow.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

He works in such a range of styles. Are they mounting a Menzel exhibition here?

[Michael Engler]

What is this?

[Tom Myers]

Soup.

[Michael Engler]

Soup at luncheon.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Wasn't it George IV who decreed that no gentleman drink soup in the middle of the day?

[Alicia Malone]

This is New England clam chowder. I thought it would be a surprise.

[Michael Engler]

And so it is. How did it get on my table?

[Alicia Malone]

I conspired with Mrs. Bauer.

[Tom Myers]

Why was that, Aunt Ada?

[Alicia Malone]

The reverend mentioned that he was in search of an authentic bowl of chowder here in New York.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

I believe I did.

[Alicia Malone]

So I set our cook to the task. We went through quite a Few receipts. I hope you agree with her choice.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

It smells delicious.

[Michael Engler]

Well, if we discuss the soup any longer, it won't be fit to drink.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Quite right, Mrs. Van Rhijn.

[Alicia Malone]

Soup at luncheon. Did you ever hear of such a thing?

[Tom Myers]

And to make matters worse, it was a chowder.

[Alicia Malone]

A New England chowder. Nonetheless. I don't even have to change my accent to say that word.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, honestly, I'm not really sure how shocking the soup thing would have been. I was flipping last night, Alicia, through The Epicurean, the 1000 page cookbook that was written in 1894 by Charles Ranhofer.

[Alicia Malone]

Just casually flipping through a 1000 page book.

[Tom Myers]

It was an E book.

[Alicia Malone]

Okay.

[Tom Myers]

Anyway, Ranhofer was. He was the head chef at Delmonica's, and he included in this book rules for dining. You know, endless sample menus and suggested dishes for every type of elegant meal. And there were several soups listed.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes, but for lunch.

[Tom Myers]

Yes, for lunch. He suggests, among other soupy possibilities, for lunch, consume in cup pea puree with croutons, fish broth with clams. Getting hungry, something called cream of corn a la Herman.

[Alicia Malone]

Delicious.

[Tom Myers]

And, yes, clam chowder.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, Oscar is definitely not sold on the soup for lunch idea, but Forte is happy. And by the way, I love how Ada had an answer about her favorite watercolorist just at the ready. Agnes did not catch her out, but of course, Tom, now I'm going to try and catch you out by asking you to explain more about this painter, Adolf Menzel. What can you tell me? I mean, I've seen a little bit of his work and it looks very detailed, almost like a photo.

[Tom Myers]

Well, he painted in a range of styles. I'm actually stealing that from Reverend Forte. No, he was incredibly well known, well regarded. He was one of the most famous German artists of his day, although he was also a bit of a loner, and he was socially estranged from most of the outside world, and it seems that he preferred it that way. So, yeah, I think chances are very slim that Ada would have been able to actually meet him.

[Alicia Malone]

I mean, yeah, Reverend Forte sure knows his stuff about Menzel.

[Tom Myers]

He does.

[Alicia Malone]

And there really does seem to be an attraction blooming between Ada and Forte. And, Tom, we know from the last episode that an Episcopal priest can date and marry.

[Tom Myers]

Indeed they can, unlike Catholic priests, which Agnes, remember, considers a blessing. But every time that Reverend Forte and Ada are in the same room, I mean, he's beaming, she's swooning. Right. And everybody seems to be noticing, especially Marian, who just cannot seem to Contain her smile, especially as her eyes are darting from one to the other. I mean, we have seen this shot several times, her eyes going back and forth and smiling.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, it's very sweet. And Marian does seem practically giddy at the thought of Ada going on this date. She accompanies Ada to the Rhine ross Gallery on 42nd Street. So was that a real gallery? Do you know, I couldn't find anything.

[Tom Myers]

About a Ross Gallery. I had a feeling you'd ask. Although many galleries were operating at the time in the city had been for decades. Groups like the American Art Union had been holding shows in New York since the 1840s, as well as its competitor, the National Academy of Design. And private galleries abounded in the city as well. I mean, all of the new money in New York, they needed to buy something to put on all those new walls. But many of these galleries were located around 14th street, including the Met Museum's debut exhibit, which was in a mansion on West 14th Street. And there were many other galleries located around Madison Square.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, so it was kind of like an early art district. Like a Gilded Age art district.

[Tom Myers]

Exactly.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, just quickly, I want to touch on Bill Henderson's visit from Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh, because he's one of the workers for George Russell's company. He's leading the union fight for better working conditions, better pay, more time off. And he says that the men are working 12 hour days, six days a week, for pittance. And although George proclaims that he is providing valuable jobs at the going rate, it's George that uses the term rubber.

[Tom Myers]

Baron to describe himself, which Henderson picks up on quickly. And George is not amused. Quickly, clearly. Instead, George is trying to lure him over to management, he says, which to me signals some kind of strategy that George is concocting. He's clearly hoping that Henderson might be useful, you know, in getting the labor force to just give in.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I think George still believes, as he says, that every man living has a price.

[Tom Myers]

Another classic George Russell line that was, by the way, delivered much more naturally than anything delivered on stage over at the Union Square Theater, where many of our favorite characters were attending the opening night of Oscar Wilde's play Vera or the Nihilists. It is a big date night, Alicia.

[Alicia Malone]

That's right. And nobody's enjoying this play. So, no, let's talk about Oscar Wilde, of course. A very famous Irish poet, playwright, wit, played here by Jordan Sebastian Waller.

[Tom Myers]

Yes, Wilde was only 29 at the time of our story, but he was already famous for his witty writing and his poetry and even parodied in the press for his dandy public Persona. In 1882, the year before our story, he came for a nationwide lecture tour that began in New York City, where, by the way, when he arrived, he allegedly told a customs official that he had, quote, nothing to declare but his genius.

[Alicia Malone]

That's a great line.

[Tom Myers]

And his entire tour, which lasted 12 months, was followed really closely in the press, lampooning his rather affected style and his manners. But he still found quite an audience. I mean, he had sold out lectures. And so he came back the next year in 1883 with his first ever play, Vera or the Nihilist.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, all of the characters are happy to meet Oscar Wilde himself, but did not seem to enjoy this play.

[Tom Myers]

And what we see of that play seems a bit, shall we say, overacted.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, it was like a school play, but the audience was not into it.

[Tom Myers]

Now, there was a lot of bored fanning, right. Lots of rolling of eyes, lots of wives cracking between Oscar van Rhijn and Maude Beaton.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. By the way, Maude and Oscar van Rhijn, they seem to share, you know, a similar sense of humor, like, very caustic humor.

[Tom Myers]

They clearly crack each other up. They even had to be shushed.

[Alicia Malone]

So did this play really debut at the Union Square Theatre like we see?

[Tom Myers]

Yes. Vera, his very first play, debuted at the Union Square Theater, which was one of the city's main stages. And the story concerned something about a poor Russian girl who joined some revolutionaries. So not exactly a laugh riot. It starred the actress Marie Prescott, and It opened on August 20, 1883, which then is ostensibly the night that we're seeing here. Unfortunately, it closed one week later.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, it was a fun scene and we'll have to get some insider info about recreating Oscar Wilde and that play from our next guests because after the break, Tom, we will talk to the Gilded Age executive producer and director Michael Engler, as well as the costume designer who is behind and all of those breathtaking costumes. Kasha Velikska Mamon.

[Tom Myers]

I can't wait, so stay listening. This is the official Gilded Age podcast. Subtle results. Still you, but with fewer lines.

[Michael Engler]

Botox Cosmetic Adobotulinum toxin A is a prescription medicine used to temporarily make moderate to severe frown lines, Crow's feet and forehead lines look better in adults.

[Tom Myers]

Effects of Botox Cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness may be a sign of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Don't receive Botox cosmetic if you have a skin infection. Side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow and eyelid, drooping and eyelid swelling. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Tell your doctor about medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eden syndrome and medications including botulinum toxins, as.

[Alicia Malone]

These may increase the risk of serious side effects.

[Tom Myers]

For full safety information, visit botoxcosmetic.com or call 877-351-0300.

[Michael Engler]

See for [e-mail] this episode is brought.

[Tom Myers]

To you by Progressive Insurance.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price from Progressive, you can find options that fit.

[Tom Myers]

Your budget and potentially lower your bills.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Try [e-mail] progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Tom Myers]

Who is Ms. Russell? One of your famous heiresses, I suppose. How clever you are, Mr. Wild. Yes, one of the greatest of her year.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Well, it seems we're in a room.

[Tom Myers]

Full of young heiresses, which is your cousin sounding out.

[Alicia Malone]

I shouldn't admit it, but of course, you're right.

[Tom Myers]

He has his eye on Ms. Beaton now. And the young man with him, John Adams.

[Alicia Malone]

He's an old friend of Oscar's.

[Tom Myers]

Yes, indeed.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Yes.

[Tom Myers]

See that getting rather complicated.

[Alicia Malone]

I don't know what you mean.

[Tom Myers]

Or should you?

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

You're far too well brought up.

[Tom Myers]

Far too well brought up, Oscar. I love how Oscar Wilde just cuts through time and space to see what we all see today. Definitely an invented moment in history, but a delicious one nonetheless.

[Alicia Malone]

Absolutely.

[Tom Myers]

And we are back. This is the official Gilded Age podcast.

[Michael Engler]

Welcome to the past.

[Tom Myers]

I'm Tom Meyers, and I'm joined by Alicia Malone.

[Alicia Malone]

Joining us now are two of the creative forces behind the Gilded Age, both of whom we spoke to last season, director and executive producer Michael Engler, and costume designer Kasha Velikska. Mamon.

[Tom Myers]

That's right. Michael Engler has a long association with the creator of the Gilded Age, Julian Fellowes, having previously worked on Downton Abbey. And it's very likely that he's also directed an episode of your favorite TV show, having worked on series like the West Wing and Sex and the City. And Kasha Velikska. Mamon gained notice for her striking costumes throughout the first season of the Gilded Age. And she's also worked on many films, designing costumes for directors such as Steven Spielberg and Wes Anderson, Michael Engler and Kasia Velikska. Mamon. Lovely to talk to both of you again.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Happy to be here.

[Alicia Malone]

Now, the last time we spoke to you both, it was for season one of the show. Now we're into season two. So, Michael, given that all the hard work of establishing this world and all the characters was done in the first season, what does that mean for you as both a director and a producer of this show for season two?

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Well, season one, you know, what's so difficult and ambitious about it, I think, is that you're introducing so many characters. It's practically like a Rush novel. There's so many characters to learn. So you're learning who all the players are, and then you're learning the rules of the game. And season one, our two main characters in the opposite camps are Marianne Brooke and Bertha Russell. And so each of them in the first season is basically learning the rules of the game from their side of the. Of the board, let's say, you know, of the. Of the story. And so you're learning who all the players are, you're learning what the rules are, you're learning what the lay of the land is. And then season two is. Now all the markers are on the board, and now the game is being played. Or really, it was begun at the end of the last season when bertha finally got Mrs. Astor to come to her ball. And so now she has officially gotten on the board and can play the game. So now that we've established all those characters and that we know how the world works, the fun of season two is that we watch them all playing that game and working their opportunities and around the obstacles each of them has, in a way that we now know as much about the world as they do. And so I think the fun of that is we're no longer teaching the audience through teaching the characters how the world works. We're now just in it and learning and watching how each of them will play their hands.

[Tom Myers]

How about you, Kasha? I mean, does a new season allow you to sort of expand on the language of the costumes that you established in the first season?

[Michael Engler]

Just like Michael mentioned, the first season was about learning the characters, learning the vocabulary of the period, learning the worlds that we are exploring, and that there's always this amazing excitement with that process of entering the new world and learning all the principles. But once you know it, the second time around, it's just an explosion of ideas. Because we build so much on everything. What Michael just mentioned, we rarely get that opportunity in film. In film, you committed and you're done. You've never had a chance of the correction. And with this privilege of a second season, you can build on your knowledge. That's why this material was so attractive. We also have that dialogue established and trust that we establish with each other. And that has been an amazing privilege, that whole process.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. I'm curious, just, you know, speaking specifics for one second, if any of the looks of the costumes for any of the characters have in a way that we might notice. I mean, here we are only in episode three of season two. But do you think that we as an audience might be able to take note of any changes in the way that anybody is being dressed?

[Michael Engler]

I think so, but it's very much driven by the story. I mean, the story is the main motor that drives those changes. And what comes with this also is this feather knowledge that we as a team, because I always say this show is built by a giant team team of amazing assistant designers, makers. We all. We had pretty much the same team that was in the first season. We all grew. We all learned. So I think what you will have a chance to see is a story supported by visual design. And the design is just deeper, better, more sophisticated, more complex.

[Tom Myers]

Just to turn back to one scene we've already seen, in fact, the very opening scene in season two is all of the characters putting on their fabulous hats to go to church. And then the Easter Parade and such. I mean, just amazing. Alicia and I were wondering what went into designing all of those dresses and hats for all of those characters. And not to mention, you know, all of the extras as well.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Well, I was gonna say it began with. There were so many events in that world that we were exploring, and Easter in that period was such an important time in New York. So we thought this would be a wonderful way, as well as stimulating the question, oh, what would be happening in New York where every one of our characters on both sides of the street, upstairs and downstairs, right, and everybody is all doing what's one event on the same day and then reveal that it's Easter, and then get into all that once we've established all the elements of the world, you know. And so we also knew that one of our strong suits is the incredible detail and, you know, lush vividness of the costumes and particularly the women's hats. And we thought, what a perfect way to bring everybody back in, enjoy the world, rediscover our people and our settings and our relationships before we went into that. And then, as usual, Kasha and her team and the actors really went through. What does that mean to them on that day? Are they. For some people, it's just a pure social thing. For some people, it's showing off their money or their dress or their fashion sense. For some people, it's a more austere, religious kind of thing. And also everybody's at a different place in their story. So we wanted it to somehow express where they were emotionally. We wanted to be able to kind of get into it and then get the stories going.

[Alicia Malone]

Kasia, for you, when you saw that scene or you first heard about that scene, was it daunting? Were you excited?

[Michael Engler]

Yeah, I think we all looked at each other, our whole design team, we looked at each other and we just started laughing because we knew the scope of that scene and the challenge of it, how enormous it was. And always the starting point is the research. So I always dive deep, deep, deep into the research to support the story that we've been given. And then it was the discovery of like, how big can we go? And we knew that we have a place to go big based on this historical research and then involve all of our phenomenal makers for our principals. And it was just a beautiful dance. It was just an amazing, fun process. And you know what is the most amazing part? That Michael gives me so much courage of exploration and has so much visual support. And I must say that our visual language is so exceptional that we understand each other within a second. He's got a great sense of humor when I push it too far. And we know that we need to pull back. And that's always just this. We have this like really fun language of discovery and support. And I feel like so amazingly supported. And then we have this incredible team of makers who know how to interpret my abstract watercolor drawings. And the research and the dialogue that we have, it's a very, very tight dialogue that we have during the creation of the. Of the pieces. It's like an organic growth that involves a lot of people, a lot of talented people and the actors. And it's just like a wonderful process.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, the actors. I mean, Michael, as a director, I know it must help to have a cast filled with award winning actors. And in this episode, number three, we have this incredible scene between Bertha and George where Bertha confronts George over his betrayal. What do you remember about directing Carrie Coon and Morgan Spector in that scene?

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Well, it was definitely the most intensely emotional scene that the two of them had together. You know, sometimes I think in a way it's easier to yell at somebody. You don't care about than it is at somebody you do care about. And I think for him to find that he was trying to do the right thing by not bringing it up and how that turned into the wrong thing. I think it's not even just that it was a betrayal, but it was that this woman who meant so little, in a way, could have such power over her by having a kind of intimate knowledge that Bertha didn't have. And so, honestly, with actors like that, you first go in and not say very much and see what happens in the end. You know what I've learned about situations like that? The more I can stage it with them in a way that most of the shots in the scene will go through most of the scene, the better it will be. Because they don't have to say, okay, in this shot, we're just gonna. We only need to pick it up from where they get to play the whole scene all the way through. And that is especially when you have great theater actors like them. They appreciate that because each time they do it, they're finding new things, new subtleties in the performance. If you set it up in a way that they can find it by themselves and not have it be too broken up or, in a funny way, too much discussed. Which isn't the same as saying we don't discuss it or get into the details as we go. But, I mean, I think we gave ourselves a lot of time in the schedule to shoot that scene that day and ended up only using half of it.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Wow. I mean, you just watch Carrie Coon's face in that scene and you see all of the various emotions play out. Everything that she's thinking. You know, what impresses both of you about Carrie Coon and what she brings to Bertha?

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Well, she brings a fearlessness to it. She just wants to know what that character wants and wants to do, and she'll go for it, you know. And so I find it more often than not, I find myself learning more from her about it than I would say than she does from me. And then I may fill in a certain fact or piece of information that might be historical or an example of something that might give her a little more detail on something. But I think that's my favorite part about her. She's just unafraid. And then also she's so unselfconscious. She'll just try anything. And then afterwards say, oh, that turned out kind of big. Is that okay? And you'll say, yes, okay, great. Then we'll move on. She doesn't have a strong feeling about this is how it should go. And if it doesn't, I won't be happy with it.

[Michael Engler]

She is incredibly funny. Like, we so looking forward to Carrie coming for fittings because it's. We always have a great time of not only creating the image for her, but also the experience of that creation is just so fun because there's something about this, like, organic exploration. She continuously explores and has open mind and embraces the newness. And I think that that goes so much with her character. I mean, this is a character who morphs, who changes, who embraces newness. Carrie could not be a better collaborator for that.

[Tom Myers]

One character, who I would love to know how she engages with on set, of course, is Turner or former turner. Today's Mrs. Winterton. We were so, so excited, obviously, to see that she was back on the show. And Kasha, she got a complete costume overhaul. I mean, she got a complete character overhaul as well. But we're curious, you know, how her costumes reflect her new status in the world. What went into your team creating this new look for Turner, quote, unquote, Winterton?

[Michael Engler]

It was the exploration and extraordinary joy of creating this character for Turner. And. And the thought that I had was the conclusion of all the elements was to create an image that is resonating, something extraordinary, conservative, very restrained. At the same time, beautifully feminine. She's a seductress at the same time, she is. She knows the rules, as we discovered in season one. She's frequently the advisor to Bertha of what to wear, how to wear through her travel, she has this innate elegance, sense of elegance, and sense of good taste that she gets to manifest. So I think that her image is so deeply motivated by her previous journeys and her natural sense of what is valid in the image making that. That was a just fun discovery of how to blend this knowledge of conservative choices, femininity, and creating an image that is very different than everybody else in our story. So I love how she turned out, actually. I think it's gonna be a really enjoyable, enjoyable journey with Turner and Michael.

[Tom Myers]

It seems like Nathan is also really having a very fun time playing Ward. I mean, for the audience. I laughed out loud during the scene in this episode where he's sneaking across the street, you know, when he's going directly from Bertha's fundraiser over to Agnes's Academy of Music Tea with Mrs. Astor. And he's sort of dodging, you know, at one point, I think, a horse and carriage. He's very physically funny, isn't he?

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

You know, I Love always reminding the audience that these two worlds are literally across the street from each other. And I thought there was something so funny about the fact that literally he's playing two sides of the street in the same moment. And so we thought there was something bold and humiliating and ridiculous about it. The beauty of so much of what Julian creates is in these incredibly detailed, nuanced, witty scenes between people, you know, in rooms and drawing rooms, at dining tables. And that the actual rough and tumble of world of New York in that period is nice to have as a constant backdrop to it all.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, I also liked in this episode, we get to see more of Mrs. Blaine and her costumes. Kasia. I mean, her dresses are just beautiful. There's one which has very intricate designs, the neckline just gorgeous to watch. And in contrast to a character like Turner, who's trying to be more conservative, there is a sexiness about Mrs. Blaine. So can you talk about this character and what you wanted her clothes to reflect about her from Blaine?

[Michael Engler]

I think that it was the idea of the design was to create beauty, find that line of sexiness and respect. I was very much interested in creating the sexiness within dignity of that character and the unusual circumstances that the script provided for it. So I think that it was very much about finding this beauty of the shape and opening. I mean, small opening goes very far in that period. In a day dress, an opening means a lot. Compared to Turner, who was always this high neck, you know, created this image of high neck and conservative attire, nevertheless, still very feminine. For Blaine, opening up in that shape was a demonstration of seductiveness.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Yeah, exactly. I wanted to say One thing about Mrs. Blaine too, because I think part of the story we were telling, you know, it's interesting in this season, we're only on episode three, but we know that Larry is having this relationship with this older woman, and Marian is having a relationship with an older man, and how completely differently those are viewed in that society. And that it's absolutely appropriate for Marian. And it seems completely scandalous for Larry. And so the idea of this woman who isn't bound in some ways by a lot of the rules, because now she's independent, she's a widow, she can live her life as she wants. I mean, there will be some consequences. But somehow her fully expressing her sexuality, it steps over the line.

[Tom Myers]

And the double standard.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Exactly.

[Tom Myers]

It was just a double standard. While you were talking about them, I was thinking of one place we saw them all together in this episode was at the theater. The amazing theater scene. We haven't Even gotten to that yet at the Oscar Wilde night premiere. I'm wondering about a number of things from what it's like to create a look and a costume and dress for a historical figure like Oscar Wilde. Did you know what he looked like? But also just how many people were in those shots. You had a whole audience. You had actors, and then you had the reception afterwards. Does it seem like that just have hundreds of costumes?

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

One of the benefits of season two is that we now have a lot of stock. And so when you have a huge scene like that, you don't have to make every single thing from scratch like we did the first season. I think what they do so brilliantly is focus on our main characters and then enough people who we can put around our main characters near to them that we're seeing a lot of new things and beautiful things that relate to that situation. And the further away from our characters and the wider the shots are things that we may have used before and slightly changed or, you know, like that. Now, some of that is also visual effects. I think we had 200 extras that day. Something like that. It is a lot. It's a lot. But then we move them around the theater for the few wide shots where we make it look full and, you know, and all of that. And then there's the whole research of just what that production would have been like. The set, the costumes for the set, the acting style. We read lots of reviews. There's a fantastic, absolutely hysterically written New York Times review of how terrible that play was and that production. And so we read those things, and we thought, well, what does that mean? How would we see it versus how did they see it, given what the style of the time was, what we know about it? And so all of those things kind of came together to give shape to what that whole evening would be like, including the play within the play, you know.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Kasia, when you are dressing a character that is based on a real person, and you said you have a lot of documentation of what he looks like, is it about trying to make it exact or still doing an interpretation of that character?

[Michael Engler]

It is always interpretation because we have a different actor, different body, and a different story setting. But it's. The research is definitely the crucial part of it because you have to evoke the essence of that character. So taking elements that evoke that character, and that sometimes is difficult to describe what exactly it is to evoke this essence, because you translate so much that our actor was quite different than Oscar Wilde himself. But I feel that finding Those details of what Oscar Wilde was wearing at that time and the particular details of some elements. But it always becomes this combination of translation, of figuring out a new language. But nevertheless, I always say, if it's soaked in reality, it resonates reality. And then you have the spirit of that character.

[Tom Myers]

Well, then, in addition to the audience scene in this episode, we also have all the actors up at the Newport Casino. So would those stock costumes have actually worked in both scenes?

[Michael Engler]

Newport Day is very much designed for the summer, hot summer days in a seaside. So it's a lot of very lightweight cottons, gauzes, linens that would be bright like light bulbs in a scene like a theater. So the Newport stocks are very separate. We kept them on, especially for season one, to create this image of New York versus Newport, which was very much driven by the paintings. Like me and Michael, we looked through endless amount of paintings and the impression that those paintings created. And that was already that transformation of what do you do with a period? You do what the painters did. They created reality that was already a step away from the reality itself. They beautified things.

[Tom Myers]

We've talked about a number of transformations today, characters and looks. One more character who sees going through some kind of a transformation herself in this episode is Aunt Ada. And it's a really lovely moment at the end of this episode when they meet up at the watercolor exhibit. And we see her in this beautiful peacock blue dress with floral accents. Kasia, can you tell us about this dress and how it might sort of reflect, you know, this moment of transformation for Ada?

[Michael Engler]

What was beautiful about this story of Ada in the second season, we discover romantic side of Ada, that side that we didn't see. We saw her as a charity servant, as spinster, a woman who stepped back from that romantic involvement in her life. It was a discovery of femininity still within the character of Ada. How do you build on that image and just bring the femininity to her costumes? And it was just this beautiful collaboration with Michael Julian and with Cynthia, who opened that vocabulary. And I think that the focus was how do we bring this romanticism appropriate for her age and for her character? I mean, she's a very mature woman in a very interesting moment of her life when she discovers romance. And as the story builds up, it's also. I strategized very carefully the. The color play for her character within the story. And I think it's built up as this puzzle of emotional journey within the romance.

[Alicia Malone]

There's so much being communicated visually in this show with the costumes and the sets. And then there's the wonderful dialogue on top of that. So Michael, as a director, do you have to then allow the dialogue and the costumes and the sets to shine and sort of hold back on adding your own visual flourishes and cinematic camera moves?

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Absolutely. The costumes and the setting, you know, tell a big part of the story. And so there are a lot of times where we would just say. And a lot of it comes into the editing where we say, you know, there are times when you want to be on a close up of somebody because what they're going through is. Is complexly conveyed on their face. But a lot of times we say, no, no, let's keep it wide. Because what we're learning about is how the whole world is functioning. There are times when we are absolutely simple and straightforward and very conservative in our approach to the filmmaking aspects of it because it is real, really, only about the acting. And then there are times when we let other things take the lead.

[Tom Myers]

Well, Michael Engler and Kasia Velietzka Mamon, thank you so much for creating that world and letting us in. And we really appreciate your time today.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Thanks so much. It's been a pleasure as always.

[Alicia Malone]

I think I could listen to Kasia talk about costumes all day. I love what you said about Turner and how she would have had a knowledge of fashion, being a ladies made.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. And how she also designed costumes for characters based on their sort of internal palettes. And just amazing. Almost as amazing as Michael moving 200 extras around a theater to make it seem full amazing. Well, that brings us to the end of this episode of the official Gilded Age podcast. But we'll be back with more of the history behind the fiction and more interviews next week.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes, and don't forget that you can catch the new episodes of the end HBO original series the Gilded Age Sundays on Max and then listen to our podcast, also available on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. So we'll chat to you then.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Bye.

[Tom Myers]

Bye. This has been the official Gilded Age podcast written, hosted and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Meyers. Our supervising producer is Andrew Pemberton Fowler.

[Alicia Malone]

Our editor is Trey Boody. With special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt and Siobhan Slater from HBO and Hannah Pettison and Amy Machado from pod.

[Tom Myers]

People listen to the official Gilded Age podcast after each episode airs on Max or wherever you find podcasts.

[Alicia Malone]

Want even more extra content and behind the scenes moments from the Gilded Age. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Gilded Age HBO to join the conversation.

[Tom Myers]

Today, the official Gilded Age Podcast is a production of HBO in partnership with Pod People.

[Kasha Velikska Mamon]

Pod People.