S2 Ep. 5: “Close Enough to Touch” with Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar and Harry Gregson-Williams

Summary

The Official Gilded Age Podcast: Season 2, Episode 5 - “Close Enough to Touch”

Release Date: November 27, 2023

In the fifth episode of Season 2 of The Official Gilded Age Podcast, hosts Alicia Malone and Tom Myers delve deep into the intricacies of the latest episode, “Close Enough to Touch.” Joined by Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar, co-executive producer and historical consultant, and Harry Gregson-Williams, one of the show’s composers, the trio unpacks the episode’s key storylines, historical contexts, and the evocative musical score that underscores the drama of the Gilded Age.

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Episode Overview

The episode centers around pivotal moments that intertwine personal dramas with broader societal tensions. Key plotlines include:

• Ada's Engagement and Family Tensions: Ada Russell announces her engagement to Reverend Luke Forte, much to the dismay of her sister Agnes. Agnes’s vehement opposition culminates in a dramatic confrontation during the wedding, highlighting familial strife and societal expectations.

• Peggy's Visit to Tuskegee: Peggy visits Tuskegee alongside T. Thomas Fortune, leading to a harrowing encounter that underscores the racial tensions of the era. Their encounter with Mason Sturt, the county commissioner, exposes the dangers black individuals faced in the South.

• Bertha’s Dinner with the Duke: Bertha entertains the Duke of Buckingham in Newport, where Mrs. Winterton schemes to sabotage the event. Despite her efforts, Bertha’s poise and strategy ensure the dinner remains a success, reinforcing her status as a leading hostess.

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Historical Insights with Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar

Dr. Dunbar provides a rich historical backdrop to the episode’s events, emphasizing the authenticity and depth the show brings to its portrayal of the 1880s.

• Agnes's Antagonism: Dr. Dunbar explains Agnes Russell’s role as a “buzzkill,” her resistance to Ada’s happiness, and the societal pressures that shape her behavior. “Agnes is such a buzzkill. And she's mean. Right. She tells Ada that she's a spinster and always will be. I mean, who does that?” (02:47).

• Wedding March Significance: The selection of Felix Mendelssohn’s Wedding March is rooted in its historical popularity following Queen Victoria’s daughter’s wedding in 1858, adding authenticity to Ada and Luke’s union. “The wedding March was written by Felix Mendelssohn in 1842 for his Midsummer Night’s Dream. It didn't become popular as a wedding March until the 1858 wedding of Queen Victoria's daughter Victoria to Prince Frederick Wilhelm of Prussia” (06:22).

• Peggy and T. Thomas Fortune’s Encounter: Highlighting the perilous realities for black individuals in the South, Dr. Dunbar underscores the historical significance of their confrontation with Mason Sturt. “It was a reminder that all of the kind of promise and hope that came with Reconstruction by 1882 were virtually gone” (30:03).

• Integration of Booker T. Washington: Introducing Booker T. Washington as a young, formative figure provides a nuanced view of black leadership and the differing strategies within the African American community. “Booker T. Washington... becomes the founder of what would become Tuskegee University. So what we had an opportunity to do is to think about him as someone who was developing over time” (26:37).

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Musical Composition with Harry Gregson-Williams

Harry Gregson-Williams offers an in-depth look at the creation and significance of the episode's score, emphasizing how music amplifies the narrative’s emotional and dramatic beats.

• Volume and Variety of Cues: The episode features 43 music cues, ranging from subtle transitions to significant set pieces like the Duke’s dinner. “Episode 5 has 43 music starts and stops, so there are 43 music cues” (01:55).

• Character Themes: Each main character is assigned a unique musical theme, enhancing their narrative arcs. For instance, George Russell’s theme is distinguished by a bass clarinet to underscore his plotting nature. “George Russell is played by a bass clarinet. He is, yep, he surely is” (53:32).

• Thematic Juxtaposition: The score thoughtfully contrasts the tense, dangerous scenes of Peggy’s Southern encounter with the opulent, controlled environment of Bertha’s dinner, mirroring the episode’s thematic exploration of power and control. “These two men... are saying the same thing. They just have different methods” (35:05).

• Live Orchestra Recording: Emphasizing the production’s commitment to quality, Harry notes that all music is conducted in front of a full live orchestra, akin to a film score rather than traditional TV scoring. “All of the music is conducted in front of a full live orchestra. It’s scored like a film rather than a TV show” (54:56).

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Key Quotes

• Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar on Agnes’s Behavior:
  “Agnes is such a buzzkill. And she's mean. Right. She tells Ada that she's a spinster and always will be. I mean, who does that?” (02:47)

• Harry Gregson-Williams on George Russell’s Theme:
  “George Russell is played by a bass clarinet. He is, yep, he surely is” (53:32)

• Dr. Dunbar on the Historical States of the South:
  “It was a reminder that all of the kind of promise and hope that came with Reconstruction by 1882 were virtually gone” (30:03)

• Musical Approach to Danger and Drama:
  “The way that the dinner with Peggy and T. Thomas Fortune cuts directly with the big, fancy Duke's dinner with Bertha. It was written and shot and directed beautifully, that it shows us two worlds” (33:24)

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Conclusion

“Close Enough to Touch” masterfully intertwines personal narratives with the broader socio-political landscape of the Gilded Age. Through insightful discussions with Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar and Harry Gregson-Williams, The Official Gilded Age Podcast offers listeners a comprehensive understanding of the episode's depth, both in historical accuracy and artistic expression. The episode not only advances the characters' arcs but also serves as a poignant reflection on the enduring complexities of power, race, and resilience in American history.

Listeners are encouraged to watch the episode on Max and subscribe to the podcast for more behind-the-scenes insights and exclusive content.

Transcript

[Tom Myers]

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[Alicia Malone]

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[Tom Myers]

They're seated, Mr. Borden. All right, we must start serving this.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Tastes good to me.

[Tom Myers]

We'll start with the soup. But is it hot enough? Rather him than me.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Hello, history lovers. Welcome back to another. Welcome to another episode of the official Gilded Age Podcast, your companion to the HBO original series the Gilded Age. I'm Tom Myers from the Bowery Boys Podcast.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

And I'm Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies. Last week, we caught up on our gossip in the newspapers of the day. And this week we're in Tuskegee with Peggy and T. Thomas Fortune, who have a harrowing encounter. Plus, Bertha entertains the Duke in Newport and Ada gets married.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

We'll be talking about Perry, all of that. And coming up, we'll be diving into the story with the co executive producer and a historical consultant for the Gilded Age, Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar. And we also have an interview with one of the two composers for the show, Harry Gregson Williams, about how they create music to support all of the drama and intrigue in the show.

[Tom Myers]

Episode 5 has 43 music starts and stops, so there are 43 music cues. Some of them might just be very small little transitional thing. Someone gets out of a carriage, walks into house. Or much, much bigger. Like, for instance, the dinner for the Duke. Big set pieces.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

All right, this is season two, episode five, Close Enough to Touch, written by Julian Fellows and Sonja Warfield and directed by Michael Engler.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

I'd like to start not at the beginning of the episode, Alicia, but with Aunt Ada and Luke Forte. In this episode, Ada gathers Agnes and Marianne and Oscar to tell them her big news, that she and Reverend Forte are engaged to be married.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Marian is thrilled. Oscar wants to open the champagne, but Agnes is angry. She lashes out, telling Ada she will not come to the wedding. Agnes also forbids Oscar from going and from giving her away. Plus, she even forces Bannister to rescind his congratulations.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Yeah, this was supposed to be Ada's big moment. Right, But Agnes is such a buzzkill. And she's mean. Right. She tells Ada that she's a spinster and always will be. I mean, who does that? She ruins a big life moment for her sister.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Absolutely. It feels so cruel. I mean, as Oscar says, this is harsh, even for you.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Yeah. And Marian pushes back too, saying, why do you have to be so cruel? So we're actually seeing some characters finally stand up to Agnes.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah. And later on, you know, Agnes visits Luke, asking why they have to marry so quickly, that Ada is the only family she can rely on. But Luke, he holds firm, quite firm.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

And I couldn't really tell If Agnes was 100% sincere, you know, in her little speech there, or just maybe a touch manipulative. But it did occur to me that the Reverend Luke Forte has been well trained to deal with difficult situations. It's the job of a priest. And Agnes seems a little bit thrown by this. You know, he basically calls her selfish and. And then backs it up with scripture. And as she points out, you know, what can she say when God's had the last word?

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Perhaps Agnes has, you know, met her match in Luke or, you know, in God maybe. And when the big day arrives, Dashiell and Francis come to 61st street ready to take Ada and Marian to the church, when suddenly, Agnes appears on the stairs and she's livid.

[Mason Sturt]

Have you changed your mind?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Certainly not. I've just come down to say goodbye. Dasho. I see they've made you an accomplice in their betrayal.

[Alicia Malone]

She must have a man to give her away. Aunt Agnes, surely you can see that.

[Mason Sturt]

No, she can't.

[T. Thomas Fortune]

Come on, we don't want to be late.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Et tu, Bernister?

[Agnes]

I'm going to support Ms. Ada, Mum.

[Tom Myers]

And I urge you to do the.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Same or you may regret it for.

[Tom Myers]

The rest of your life.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Et tu, Banister? This line, Alicia, this Shakespearean allusion to Julius Caesar's great betrayal is a little bit over the top. Agnes is literally being a drama queen here. She seems incapable of putting, you know, her sister's happiness ahead of her own.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Absolutely. And when we get to the church, Ada is so worried that nobody will be there, but Marian informs her that there's flowers, there's people. And Oscar. The camera reveals the church full of guests. You know, the Fanes, Maud Beaton, the staff are all there. And we follow, walk down the aisle as she beams at everyone who has shown up. And the Wedding March plays. And Tom, that's one thing I wanted to ask you. What is the history around the wedding March?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Well, the wedding March was written by Felix Mendelssohn in 1842 for his midsummer Night's Dream. Which brings us back to Shakespeare. But it didn't really become popular as a wedding March until the 1858 wedding wedding of Queen Victoria's daughter Victoria to Prince Frederick Wilhelm of Prussia, which took place only 25 years before our story here. So just 25 years before Ada and Luke Forte's wedding.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

And then, you know, just as the guests take their seats and the curate begins the ceremony, the door opens, A hushed silence falls over the church, and a silhouette appears.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

And who steps forward in front of the stained glass to audible gasps throughout the church? It's Agnes who stops the show as she makes her way down the aisle and takes her seat with her family.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Such a great moment. I think Michael Engler, who directed this episode, must have had a lot of fun shooting this scene, because it's quite beautiful. With the silhouette, you got the touching music. Agnes is walking silently down the aisle, head bowed. We see Mr. Bannister and Mrs. Bauer exchange glances. Aurora smiles in Ada's direction. And then Agnes and Ada, they have a whole conversation with each other, just in looks.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Yeah. No words necessary. So, Alicia, why'd she change her mind? You know, I'm wondering if Marian's little lecture to her a little bit earlier sunk in.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Mm. Yeah. I mean, maybe, you know, perhaps it was what Bannister said to her.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Oh, yeah, I'm going with Bannister. It's hard to dismiss Bannister. He's always the adult in the room. Well, except for when he's writing letters, but otherwise, he's the adult.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yes, that's true. So we don't actually see the full ceremony because the episode ends there. So let's go back to one of the other big storylines, Peggy's visit to Alabama. And we'll be talking more in depth about Tuskegee and Booker t. Washington with Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar soon. But when Booker T. Washington announces the opening of the dormitory, he calls it the, ah, Porter dormitory. So who was he?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Alfred Haynes Porter was a Brooklyn businessman. He made a fortune as a coffee and tea trader in New York, and then he gave much of it away to charities, including to the Brooklyn City Mission and to Tuskegee, where in 1883, he really did fund the construction of the first building constructed on Tuskegee's campus, which was built by students, and it was named Porter hall in his honor.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

So another fun fact, you know, sprinkled into the Story.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

They did their research.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah. Well, one of the Tuskegee students, David, invites Peggy and T. Thomas Fortune to his mother Bea's restaurant for dinner. At first, they're having a lovely time. They're eating lots of food. Bea is impressed with Peggy's job as a reporter. But soon, things take a dangerous turn.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Yeah. This convivial scene is suddenly interrupted by the arrival of two white men who stumble into the restaurant looking for dinner and maybe to cause some trouble. And it's the county commissioner, Mason Sturt, with his friend. They grab food off plates for themselves, they throw food on the floor. They pick a fight with Titan's Fortune. And B, you know, the restaurant's owner tries in vain to calm things down.

[Tom Myers]

You think things are different now, but they really ain't. You hear me talking to you, girl?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Mr. Mason, come on.

[Alicia Malone]

Stop it.

[Tom Myers]

What'd you say?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

No.

[Alicia Malone]

Let her go.

[Tom Myers]

Don't get smart with me.

[Mason Sturt]

Do you know who I am? They from out of town.

[Tom Myers]

Shut your mouth. You better sit down, boy. This here's Mason Stark.

[Alicia Malone]

He's the county Commissioner. I'm gonna have to teach you a.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Lesson so you understand your place. And that's T. Thomas Fortune giving this man a big shove, you know, which, of course, would have been an unthinkable action for a black man to take against a white man in Alabama at the time. And it causes Fortune and Peggy to race from the restaurant and flee town. There is a lot to unpack in this scene, you know, from. From Bea's last name to the danger that that Peggy and Fortune faced here. And we will get into all of that in a few minutes with Dr. Dunbar.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah. I'm so interested to hear what went into writing this scene because it leads to a terrifying moment where Peggy and Fortune have to hide in a hayloft from an angry, violent, torch wielding mob of white men.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Yeah, this was a scary scene. And so different, right, from anything else that we've seen so far in the show. This isn't a game, you know, that society plays. This is life or death for Peggy. And it's following this fraught moment of high tension once this violent mob has passed them by, that Peggy and Fortune comfort each other and then kiss.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

I was so surprised by this kiss. I mean, maybe the fear of this situation has pushed these two even closer. But of course, he's married and a father.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Yes, and Peggy knows it. And yet, Alicia, I've felt this moment coming for two seasons, but I certainly didn't imagine that it would happen at such a terrifying Moment for Peggy. Right, and she seems to regret it immediately once it's happened.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, speaking of relationships, Larry is heartbroken over his relationship with Mrs. Blaine coming to an end. And after Bertha catches him drunk and smashing glasses with his Harvard mate, she sends him back to New York.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

He's been banished from Newport. By the way, was it just me or did you see a trace of a smile on Bertha's face in that scene? Maybe she was really mad. But also maybe there was just something a little bit funny about Larry and what's his friend's name? Malcolm, just falling on the floor.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Well, George gives Larry an assignment to represent him as one of the trustees of the new Brooklyn Bridge. Larry visits the Roeblings house where he meets the trustee manager, Mr. Norman Tate, and Mrs. Emily Roebling.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

And the house, as George predicted, is indeed a hive of activity. Mrs. Roebling tells Larry that her husband is in Newport, but he's suspicious because he, he sees how Everybody defers to Mrs. Roebling. And when he peeks into a meeting, Larry realizes that Mrs. Roebling is very knowledgeable and is in fact leading the construction project.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yes, and this leads me to my question. You know, tell us about Emily Roebling, because I know that she's become a kind of a famous figure.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

She has, yes, and for a very good reason. Emily Warren was born in 1843 in Cold Spring, New York, which is about an hour north of the city by train. Her brother, the Major General Gouverneur Warren, was a Civil War hero. And it was while she was visiting him during the war that she met Washington Roebling, who was actually serving alongside her brother at the time in the war. Washington and Emily married in 1865. And in the 1870s, when her husband was the chief engineer of the bridge and became sick, he relied upon Emily to handle much of the day to day management of the Brooklyn Bridge project until it was completed.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

A huge job. And so fascinating that the show is bringing another real life figure into this story.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Yes, and I think that we will be hearing more about Emily Roebling's story.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Mm. So Larry is busy, but Bertha is even busier. She's entertaining the Duke at her Newport mansion. But Mrs. Winterton, she wants to ruin it all. She invites the Russell footman Peter Barnes over to ask him to be part of a plot. And Tom, she is in cahoots with one of the chefs, a Mr. Schneider.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Oh, is she ever. And Peter seems pretty amused by the transformation of his old pal Turner. He even kind of mocks her, you know, when he calls her. Oh, sorry, Mrs. Winterton. But yes, between Peter here and this evil chef who's been hired as extra help for the special dinner, Mrs. Winterton plans to somehow ruin the meal and get get her revenge on Bertha.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Well, the guests start to arrive for dinner. We hear the Drexel's name called. Drexel name drop alert. Ward McAllister is there. Mamie Fish, too. All the quote, right people have shown up, even those on the Academy side of the opera war. Except for Mrs. Astor, of course. And then Tom, he arrives Church announces his Grace, the Duke of Buckingham, which.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Would have been a sensation for the guests, right? A highlight of the social season at Newport. And royalty really did visit Newport. For example, Elizabeth Drexelaer wrote about the time in 1902 that the Grand Duke Boris of Russia spent two weeks in Newport being wined and dined by society. And in fact, on one night, Mamamie Fish and Mrs. Ogden Golett both held competing dinners for the Grand Duke. I mean, what to do, Alicia?

[Harry Gregson Williams]

So I think what you're telling me is that there were dinner wars as well as opera wars.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

There were, yes. These kinds of Gilded Age dramas really did play out. And the real life grand duke in Newport remarked to Elizabeth Drexelaer, quote, I have never even dreamt of such luxury as I have seen in Newport. And he was a grand duke.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

It looks very luxurious on the show, too. We watch as the guests gather. George presents the Fanes and then the Wintertons to the Duke, who, of course, he was supposed to stay with in Newport before Bertha swooped in to steal him.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Do you think Newport will live up to your expectations, duke?

[Tom Myers]

I'm sure Mrs. Russell's Newport will.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Well said. But not our Newport.

[Tom Myers]

May I present Mr. And Mrs. Winterton.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

I know the Wintertons.

[Tom Myers]

I hope I'll see more of you while I'm here.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

You'll see as much of us as.

[Tom Myers]

We'Re allowed what Mrs. Winterton means.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

I don't think you've met our daughter Gladys.

[Tom Myers]

Ms. Russell.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

How do you do, Gladys? You look delicious.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Don't worry, you're sitting next to her at dinner.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

I do like how Bertha just cut off Mrs. Winterton there. But wasn't it also just a touch disturbing how she flaunted her own daughter? I mean, the don't worry line just a little bit.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

I also like how the Duke is like, oh, he's disappointed. But Bertha has a plan, you know. She always has a plan, doesn't she?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

That she does. She does.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

So down in the kitchen There's a flurry of activity, and amongst it all, Watson notices Schneider and Peter having a conversation and then catches Schneider putting something in the sauce, which, I don't know, it looked like it was a powder. What do we think this was?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

I don't know. I started searching around for ideas and I kept coming back to arsenic, which I think would have been a little bit extreme.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

But anyway, whatever it was, it was powerful enough to instantly, you know, transform Borden sauce for that first course into something revolting. We literally have a spit take here from both Church and Borden at the same time. And so Church just cancels the entire course.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah, which, you know, Bertha notices, but the Duke is just delighted at having artichoke and truffle soup for the first course.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

But meanwhile, in the kitchen, I was just wondering why they didn't, like, you know, lock Schneider to a chair or something, because he was still moving around the kitchen, you know, whispering about soup into Peter's ear, which, by the way, made Watson suspicious.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah, you know, Watson sees them whispering, and we hear something about the soup being hot enough, and then the soup is about to be served. So that means an impending disaster is on the horizon. Borden, Mrs. Bruce and Watson all realize that Peter is the one serving the Duke. You know, Watson catches Church just as the footman and the shark, Peter, are circling the table. Didn't it look like, you know, sharks circling the table? This is perfectly choreographed. It was like a dance to the theme song. Really amps up the tension.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Oh, it's tense. And it seems that Peter is actually planning to drop the soup on the Duke, which doesn't strike me as a great career move, but judging from Mrs. Winterton's face, I mean, I think he's going to be rewarded generously. But then, as all the footmen reach forward to serve the soup, Church's hand enters the frame and grabs the Duke's soup just in time. And he sets it down with a polite nod. Mrs. Winterton has been foiled again, crisis.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Averted, and none of the guests, except for the sour face Mrs. Winterton, are any the wiser about what might have happened.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Although Mamie Fish seems a little suspicious of Mrs. Winterton.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yes, she does. So the dinner goes off without a kitsch. The Duke piles on the compliments in a toast to Bertha, and Mr. Winterton tells his wife that it was a good dinner. You must admit that.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

He is just so clueless about his wife. No, she's not going to admit that. Even if, as she says, they tore my fingernails off to make me.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Ugh. Ouch.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Please don't. But yeah, let's just rewind a second to the Duke's toast. He raises a glass and proclaims that Bertha Russell is, quote, one of the leading hostesses of Newport. I think that that was what she had been waiting for.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah, that is what she's always wanted. And you know, Tom, I think that's it. I think we have successfully recapped this episode.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

That was a lot. But we have even more coming your way.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yes, stay listening to the official Gilded Age podcast because after this quick break, Tom and I will be talking to Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar, the co executive producer and historical consultant who was very involved with the Alabama storyline. And then we'll have a chat with the Gilded Age music composer Harry Gregson Williams. So don't go anywhere.

[Alicia Malone]

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[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

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[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

My mother warned me, but I never could have imagined this.

[Alicia Malone]

This is my fault. I grew up with these people.

[Tom Myers]

I should.

[Alicia Malone]

I should have protected you and held my tongue.

[Mason Sturt]

But that's not who you are.

[Alicia Malone]

And that's not who you are either. That's why I hired you.

[T. Thomas Fortune]

Will things ever really change?

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

This is the official Gilded Age Podcast. I'm Tom Meyers, back with Alicia Malone and. And Alicia, as we just heard, things got really tense in today's episode.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah, they did. And you know, that idea of change that Peggy just mentioned is exactly what we're going to talk to our next guest about. So, Tom, why don't you do the honors? Introduce her.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

With pleasure. We're joined now by Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar. She's a writer, historian, and professor who is also the co executive producer of the show, consulting on the historical details and storylines. Dr. Dunbar is also a distinguished scholar who is one of only a handful of historians who study the lives of women of African descent who lived in America during the 18th and 19th centuries. Dr. Dunbar is a fount of knowledge, so we're very happy to have her back on the show.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Let's get to it. Dr. Erika Armstrong Dunbar, thank you for being here. Now, we spoke last season about your work with the Gilded Age team as an executive producer and historical consultant and how you helped to shape Peggy's storyline. So as you rejoined the team for season two, were there any particular character developments that you were hoping to include for Peggy?

[Mason Sturt]

Yeah, well, you know, it was really sort of wonderful to come back to work on season two to work with Julian and Sonya. And I think we were all kind of in alignment with what we wanted to see happen for Peggy, for her character, for her family, and that was to sort of peel back the layers on Peggy's life, to understand her as a complete and complex human right, to think more deeply about who she was as a person, A woman who was attempting to be a professional in the 1880s, as a black woman who was attempting to sort of break into the writing, but to also understand her very sort of complex situation with her parents, with her family, and to understand her in a more complete fashion. That was what I wanted to see for Peggy. And I think everyone on the team, but more specifically, of course, Julian and Sonya wanted that as well. And I think we're quite good at getting us there.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

And here in season two, we've been introduced to a new, powerful black character, the real life figure Booker T. Washington. Can you discuss why Booker's story was chosen to include this season?

[Mason Sturt]

Yeah, I think it's. We wanted viewers to understand the importance, the centrality of someone like a Booker T. Washington. Now we're capturing him at the very sort of beginning of his career. We're in the 1880s, and this we get an opportunity to learn about a man who is up from slavery, who was born enslaved in Virginia, who finds his way to Hampton Institute and HBCU and then eventually becomes the founder of what would become Tuskegee University. So what we had an opportunity to do is to think about him as someone who was developing over time, and he gets to encounter Peggy T. Thomas Fortune and others, to have these very kind of deep, complex conversations about the direction of black America in the 1880s. And what's so powerful is that many of the conversations, themes, problems, challenges of the 1880s resonate today. And so by having Booker T. Washington represented in this season brings in another voice of black America. It takes us to the south, and we've spent a good deal of time in New York, of course, in Brooklyn. And now we get an opportunity to see what's happening in the rest of the nation.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

And on the show, you know, the character of Booker T. Washington really makes for a great counterpoint to T. Thomas Fortune when they have that conversation at the table, you know, and how, you know, Peggy really points out that they are both saying the same thing. They just have different methods. So can you talk about, you know, pairing these two real life historical figures together?

[Mason Sturt]

T. Thomas Fortune was a man who was born around the same time as Booker T. Washington. He was born enslaved as well, in the south, in Florida. And so having these two men, we know that their trajectories were very different in that T. Thomas Fortune was someone who made his way north, unlike Booker T. He would spend some time being trained at another historically black college at Howard University. And he was unapologetic about his feelings and belief and push for civil rights for black people. And it was a voice that he pushed for the majority of his life. These two men knew each other and they were both starting their careers around the same time. So we get to see a young T. Thomas Fortune, who has become this well known journalist in New York, meeting a young Booker T. Washington, who he already knew. He had been doing the rounds in Brooklyn, even attempting to raise money for this new school in Tuskegee, Alabama. And to have these two kind of talk to one another and then to see the sort of reactions and response to what happens later on after they've spent time together, I think is also really informative.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

And speaking of that, I mean, in the episode, you know, we are reminded that the south remains a very dangerous place, obviously for black people as well. Could you talk about choosing to include the frightening story of T. Thomas Fortune and Peggy needing to take cover and fleeing?

[Mason Sturt]

Yeah, I think it was important for our viewers to be exposed to not only the stories of sitting in a comfortable, beautiful Brooklyn home, around a table, in a parlor with a piano, with beautiful clothing and servants. That, of course, was a part, a very small part of black America at that time. But the vast majority of black people were not exposed to that kind of life that the Scott family lived. And it was really important for Julian in particular, to give a realistic impression of what the Nation looked like 15 years after the end of the Civil War. It's a reminder that all of the kind of promise and hope that came with reconstruction by 1882 were virtually gone. That that promise of freedom, of opportunity, of democracy, those things were gone. And in Alabama and much of the south, there was a return to that sort of solid white south that was upheld by domestic terrorism by white supremacist groups that kept black men, women and children in check through violence. And so if we didn't demonstrate that that was very real, very palpable, very front of mind for most black people, we would be doing a sort of disservice.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Absolutely. And it's terrifying. It's so different from the rest of the show. Right.

[Mason Sturt]

It had to be different from the rest of the show because Peggy's life as a black woman, the Scotts lives as black people. T. Thomas Fortune's life as a formerly enslaved man. Their experiences are very different from their counterparts from Marian, from Bertha, from Agnes. Right. There's a disconnect there that is far and wide. And for us to give a, I think, more nuanced interpretation or vision of what life was like for black people at that time. You know, racialized violence was deadly. And so, once again, I think the terror. It is something that will resonate with viewers and remind folks that, yes, there are tea parties and balls and beautiful clothing, but for millions of others, there's something else happening.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah. And there seems to be quite a meaningful juxtaposition in this episode. The way that the dinner with Peggy and T. Thomas Fortune cuts directly with the big, fancy Duke's dinner with Bertha. Is that on purpose?

[Mason Sturt]

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, it was written and shot and directed beautifully, that it shows us two worlds. I'd argue in both scenes, what's being discussed really or shown is the issue of control. Who gets to have it? Who gets to wield power and control. Now, when we're looking at the sort of fancy scene with the Duke's dinner, this is, you know, Bertha flexing in many ways. This is her stance and her attempt to. To demonstrate control. Right. With regard to status, that she deserves to sit with everyone and deserves to be the woman of the hour. Right. It's control. It's power. However, when we're sitting around the table in Alabama with T. Thomas Fortune, with Peggy, with Booker T. Washington, with Fannie, his wife, there's also a conversation, clearly, about control and about power that is being had. One that was central to this kind of discussion about what the future for black America would look like. Would it be one in which people subjected themselves to racial segregation and oppression, or one in which they would fight back with sort of direct action and we get to see two sides of that coin. But ultimately, these are dinners about power and about control.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah, that's so interesting. And, you know, just before Peggy left for Alabama, her mother was very concerned about her visiting the South. I mean, she knows what it was like for black people in the south at that time. So can you speak about the scenes between, you know, this independent, headstrong daughter and very protective mother?

[Mason Sturt]

Yeah. You know, being on set when that was filmed, you know, was super powerful. Danae and Audra are just pros. I know. I was so crying. You know, I think any mother who has a young adult child, regardless of race or class status or what have you, can relate to that scene. Dorothy is attempting to give wisdom and advice to her daughter, and it's something that her daughter really doesn't want to hear. This was about the very real danger that could confront her daughter. And as her mother, it was her responsibility to inform her about what she was walking into. And, you know, as a 21st century mother, I think many of us, especially with black children, can relate to this kind of conversation. That was the 1880s version of the talk. What to do? Very kind of specific instructions. Where should your eyes be if white people are looking at you? How should you talk to them? These are. Might seem trivial, but for Dorothy, a woman who understood slavery, understood the south in ways that her daughter did not, it was her job to make certain that if her daughter didn't listen to her, that she would at least return to her. And so for me, the way that Audra and Danae played that scene, it was once again, sort of palpable and a relatable moment between the 1880s and 2023.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

It's also interesting to see, you know, the depiction of Peggy that although she has to deal with a lot of racism, obviously in her own life, she has such a different viewpoint to the women in the South. And we hear the women at Tuskegee say, kind of, you're very lucky to be living in the North.

[Mason Sturt]

Yeah, it's a sort of reminder. And I think, once again, thinking about Peggy as a young woman, when we meet her in season one, she seems almost invincible, as though, you know, she should have a cape on and that she's, you know, she's managed to persevere, to get. And she's doing this on her own. Season two, we have an opportunity to learn a little more about Peggy, about her as a young woman still trying to figure it out that she doesn't know everything, that she sometimes makes bad decisions, that she has to deal with things in life that did not go the way she wanted them to go and to try and be resilient. I think being able to see a young woman who's really, although seen as fortunate by the students in Tuskegee, understands her own life as something very different, as someone who's dealing with grief and loss. And her attempts to deal with that in some ways remind her of the joy that sits alongside of pain.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

And when there was the altercation in the restaurant, you see that Peggy follows her mother's instructions, right? While title Misfortune had a different approach. But I wanted to ask you also about Mason Sturt, one of the men who stumbled into the restaurant and caused all the drama. We've heard that last name before. Bea and David's last name is Sturt, too. So could you tell us what that means about the relationship between Mason and Bea.

[Mason Sturt]

This was a really sort of important part of this episode to remind us just how close slavery sat next to freedom in the 1880s, and to understand what the relationship was between Mason and Bea, the woman we encounter who is running this kind of rural, very small. We'll use the word restaurant. We know there's a tension that exists between these two characters. Mason, a white man, and Bea, who appears as though she's a mixed race woman. What is suggested is that there is a relationship between Bea and Mason that is more than just something that's sort of common knowledge, neighbors, what have you, but that there's a familial relationship, and that, in fact, that they were siblings, half siblings. And this is once again, a reminder of people who were formerly enslaved, women in particular, who were the victims of sexual violence, of enslavers, and that their children often were mixed race. And I think it was actually quite genius that in this very kind of subtle way, we are reminded of slavery's roots and of its strong grasp on those who are living in the aftermath of slavery.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Thank you for clarifying that, because it just seemed like such a quick attack, you know, in the midst of all this drama. But it turns out that it implies so much more.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar, thank you for joining us on the podcast. I mean, that was wonderful.

[Mason Sturt]

Thank you. I fake it till I make it.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

No, you're so eloquent.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

That was so interesting to hear. You know, why the show felt that they needed to include this difficult storyline, because millions of people were living with this kind of danger every day.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah. And I also enjoyed hearing Dr. Dunbar talk about, you know, wanting to bring more nuance and complexity to the character of Peggy. I mean, she's been on such a journey this season.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Mm. Well, and, Alicia, that's not the end of this episode of the podcast because we have another guest joining us now.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

That's right. We're about to talk with music composer and conductor Harry Gregson Williams. He and his bro, Rupert Gregson Williams, are responsible for creating the score on the Gilded Age with the beautiful theme song and all the other gorgeous music that helps transport viewers to the 1880s and guide us through the various storylines and moods of the show. And you've likely also heard Harry Gregson Williams music on films such as Gone Baby, Gone, the Martian, Shrek, and more.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Harry Gregson Williams, welcome to the podcast.

[Tom Myers]

Oh, thanks.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Thanks for having me, Harry. It's so fun to talk to you because every single episode of the Gilded Age starts with your work with the theme Song So where did you and your brother Rupert begin in creating this theme? Because the music really seems to speak to the drama and the romance. And also the kind of innovation that was happening and the changing times.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, well, you're spot on there. We knew that the theme had to have energy and at times be elegant, but also have this sort of musical thrust. And once one gets into that, that very first season, the first episode, was pretty clear that there are kind of two sides of the street, the new money and the old money. And we wanted to be able to reflect that in the theme. And it to be a kind of engine room for the rest of the score so that we'd be able to lean on that. I think Rupert was the one. Let's split up and try and find the essence of the kind of engine room, if you like, which became this something really, really quite quick.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah. I was gonna ask whether you split up the episodes or split up the sections of the episodes. Cause there is so much music.

[Tom Myers]

There is. Generally, what we did was take a look at an episode as a whole and as a composer, once we're splitting these things up into cues. So in a typical episode, in fact, I looked at. I dug out what we call the cue sheet for episode five. And it has 43 cues. One's here, 24 seconds, which is not very much. Another cue might be three and a half minutes long. So that's quite a chunk. So we would look at the cue sheet and say, look, go through this and think thematically. Now, are we going to. With George and Bertha Russell? That's obviously where we're gonna plug in their theme in this cue. Or this is a Marian moment. And then we'd divvy it up, say, okay, Roops, you go for those cues, I'll go for these. And we'll meet in the middle, as it were. And then we'd switch out cues. So I would. Then he would then send his music over to me and I'd have a tinker with it. And then he'd hear it and think, why the heck did you try and change that? It was perfect as it was, and vice versa. And then we'd get the filmmakers involved, and in particular the showrunner. And we got a really good flow going, actually. And as I said, with the volume of music, one really had to. Because once we started, they started delivering episodes to us. There was a kind of tidal wave of music that was needed. Before we began the first season, there was a four to six week period where we weren't working to picture. And that's where the theme got created. That's where some of the thematic material that we blazed through both seasons with. You know, whether it was for Peggy or Larry or whoever it was for Oscar and obviously for Marian, she comes on strong.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah. And, you know, the Gilded Age tackles a very interesting time in history when so much was changing in America. When you're working on a period piece like this, how much do you consider the time period in terms of the instruments that you choose?

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, the instrumentation is really important in something like this. Now, we did actually use quite a. There are quite a few little bubbling, burbling synths within the score. They're kind of embedded in the music. We use those, as I mentioned, the expression engine room earlier in the main theme, the main title of the piece. That's violin's. It's very clear. That's fiddles. That string section. In quite a few scenes where there's dialogue, it's a much quieter situation. One can't have a big symphony orchestra scrubbing away on their instruments like this. We'd have little modular synths just burbling away in the background. So sometimes just embedded in the music, not in a big, showy way, but there are instruments that you'd be surprised to find in the late 1890s, whatever it is. However, for the most part, yes, an orchestral, organic sound is there. We used on top of that, quite a few instruments to color the orchestral palette. Things like hammer dulcimers, so quite a bit of guitars. But again, we were quite careful not to take the viewer out of the time and place. Yet we didn't feel restricted to using instruments that were of the time.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

And when you were developing, say, Marian's theme or Bertha's theme, did you and your brother, you know, you went back and forth on your ideas for that, and then. Do you take that to the rest of the team? Do you take it to Julian who says, yeah, that works for Marion, but I don't like Bertha. Can you come back with something else?

[Tom Myers]

Michael Englund said at the beginning, listen, everything you'll channel through me. I don't know what he did with it. He probably disseminated our music and took a lot of notes from other people. But he would get back to us and say, love this cue. Don't touch it. Fantastic. This cue. I think we need a bit more energy at this point. A little bit more here. Yeah. Michael was so enthusiastic about the music after our very first show and tell where we played the main theme. We played a theme for George Russell, A theme for the Old Money. Marion's theme, Oscar's theme. And he would just so, so love the music that. Yeah, it was a real pleasure. It was a great way of working for us.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

And the main theme, you know, the theme song itself also works its way into different themes. Right. You have little bits and pieces of it that are playing. And I noticed in today's show, the Big dinner with the Duke, right, as we're heading in, it's like full orchestration on that theme. So it's like, do episodes build up to the theme song? In a way? Is that reserved for really special moments in episode five?

[Tom Myers]

Actually, that moment, although it's a big moment with the Duke, I think we did that scene last because we knew. We kind of knew where we were with it. But as far as we're concerned, it's really Fortune and Peggy making their trip and, you know, what's going on with them was actually a bit more intriguing for us musically. That would work.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Speaking of the Peggy and Fortune scene, I mean, what did you have to do there? I mean, because that's obviously, right, this moment of danger, it's sort of the whole episode hangs on that and it's contrasting, Right. They're cutting back and forth between that and then you pour dinner. So where do you even start there.

[Tom Myers]

Musically, with Peggy's theme? You know, we followed her. We know that she's kind of pushing the boundaries of a not so friendly society. And Fortune seems to mean well. The episode really, really revolves around their interaction. And there is danger, there's tension. So Peggy's theme had been, up to that point, quite simple and usually heard on a piano with a little arpeggiated figure like this, and actually lent itself quite well to a slightly melancholy feel. But we had to throw in a touch of tension, as I say. And that was great fun.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah. And I'm so intrigued by the process of composing, not being musical myself at all. So do you start with reading the scripts?

[Tom Myers]

I can't say we had any time to read scripts. Cause by the time in season two, when we were at episode the first cut of episode five, we probably got, as we were trying to have the filmmakers sign off on episode three, which we'd already written, but not recorded yet. So whilst we're writing. No, whilst we're thinking about writing episode five, looking at the first cut of episode five, we probably have two episodes before. Had that signed off on episode three would probably be with the orchestrator, because we're probably going to record that next week. So there's a lot of moving parts going on here. Yeah, no, I don't recall reading any scripts. One of the first things that happens once we'd got an episode fresh off the. From the edit room, first time we see it, we'd watch it through and then we'd have a meeting without music with. With the filmmakers. We call it spotting session. So at that moment we spot where music's going to start and stop. And so it's now, after that meeting, an episode, as I told you, episode five has 43 music starts and stops. So there are 43 music cues. Some of them might just be very small little transitional thing. Someone gets out of a carriage, walks into house, or much, much bigger. Like for instance, the Dinner for the Duke. Big set pieces and the ins and outs is something that is decided by the director, the showrunner and the composer at the spotting session. So we're kind of discovering where music needs to go and sometimes we wouldn't necessarily have to stick to that once you actually come down to write the music for a scene. But we have to work to something, especially under these time constraints. So our kind of playlist, as it were, is broken down, a cue sheet which follows the spotting session. And once that's. Then we know where we are. This is our target. We've got 43 cues to write. So Rupert, you get busy on those, I'll get busy on these. And then we switch them overnight.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Do any of the locations or the actual situations, the plot lines have their own themes as well, or is it just the characters who have themes?

[Tom Myers]

Mainly character based themes. But as I say, one side of the street has a very, very distinct theme to the other side of the street. But they're also tied into the families. So you might call them the new Money theme. And the old Money theme might be the Russell family and the family across the Van Rhijn family. But they're one and the same thing. But within that we're able to break it down to Bertha, strangely, who's probably the strongest character. Certainly one of the strongest characters doesn't have a personal character theme. I don't know why. She kind of rides the wave of the new Money, the Russell theme, whereas George has. One evening, I remember Rupert sent me a file. We were trying to find a particular theme for George during season one and he sent me a file with a theme on it, which I thought was really nice. But to me it felt a little bit. The music kind of hit me in my midriff and I really wanted it to Be a bit darker, a bit lower. Because he's quite plotting, isn't he? He's always got ideas and not necessarily the most likable character. So I shoved his theme down an octave or something that Rupert had and put it onto a bass clarinet, as opposed to a clarinet, regular clarinet, which is kind of mid range. And it gave a slightly mysterious plotting type of sound to this. Send it back to Rupert, who thought this was not a bad idea, but was afraid that the filmmakers would find the sound of a bass clarinet rather too different. But they loved it. They didn't know what they were listening to, actually. No one said, oh, what is that instrument? They really liked it. So that's really how we went about writing thematic material.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

So George Russell is basically played by a bass clarinet.

[Tom Myers]

He is, yep. He surely is.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Fabulous.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Well, Harry Gregson Williams, thank you so much for joining us. Now quickly, I see that there's a piano in the background. Would you mind playing us something? You know, play us out with a theme. I don't know, Oscars theme.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, sure.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yay.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Thank you so much for joining us today.

[Tom Myers]

Oh, you're welcome.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Thank you. That was wonderful.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

That was amazing. I just, I love hearing how, you know, all the characters have their own themes. I want my own theme, Alicia. And that was Oscar's theme that he just played.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Yeah, it was. It was. It's like a little private concert. We just had such a treat. And something that Harry told us off mic that I found really interesting is that all of the music is conducted in front of a full live orchestra. It's scored like a film rather than a TV show.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Yeah. Which is, I think, why it all sounds so lush, right?

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Absolutely. Well, that does it for us, Tom. But you can see new episodes of the HBO original series the Gilded Age Sundays on Max. And then make sure you tune into our podcast, also available on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Catch you then.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

See you soon. This has been the official Gilded Age Podcast, written, hosted and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers. Our supervising producer is Andrew Pemberton Fowler.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

Our editor is Trey Boudy. With special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt and Siobhan Slater from hbo and Hannah Petterson and Amy Machado from pod.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

People listen to the official Gilded Age Podcast after each episode airs on Max or wherever you find podcasts want even.

[Harry Gregson Williams]

More extra content and behind the scenes moments from the Gilded Age. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Gilded Age HBO to join the conversation.

[Dr. Erica Armstrong Dunbar]

Today, the official Gilded Age Podcast is a production of HBO in partnership with Pod People. Pod People?