S2 Ep. 6: “Warning Shots” with EP David Crockett, Bernard Telsey, and Adam Caldwell

Summary

The Official Gilded Age Podcast Season 2, Episode 6: “Warning Shots” Release Date: December 4, 2023

Hosts: Alicia Malone (Turner Classic Movies) and Tom Myers (The Bowery Boys Podcast)
Guests: Executive Producer David Crockett, Casting Directors Bernard Telsey and Adam Caldwell

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Introduction

In Season 2, Episode 6 of The Official Gilded Age Podcast titled “Warning Shots,” hosts Alicia Malone and Tom Myers delve deep into the intricate narratives of the HBO series, exploring both on-screen events and their historical inspirations. Joined by executive producer David Crockett and casting directors Bernard Telsey and Adam Caldwell, the episode offers a blend of plot analysis, character exploration, and behind-the-scenes insights.

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Episode Overview

The episode centers around the escalating tensions between laborers and industrial magnates during the Gilded Age, highlighting key plotlines from the show’s sixth episode. Themes of labor rights, societal disparity, and personal conflicts among the elite are prominently featured.

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Main Plot Points: Pittsburgh Labor Strike

The episode begins with a detailed discussion of a pivotal scene set in Pittsburgh, where Bill Henderson leads a labor rally advocating for fairer working hours and better conditions. The rally’s chant, “Eight hours for work, eight hours for rest, eight hours for what we will,” draws parallels to the historical labor movements of the late 19th century.

Notable Quote:

Tom Myers [03:24]: “They’re actually quoting a popular song of the time called 'Eight Hours,' which was written in 1878 by I.G. Blanchard with music by the Reverend Jesse Jones.”

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Historical Parallels: The Homestead Strike

Hosts and guests compare the episode’s depiction of labor unrest to the real-life Homestead Strike of 1892. Tom Myers elaborates on the similarities, noting that while the show avoids the extreme violence of the actual event, it captures the intense standoff between workers and authorities.

Notable Quote:

Tom Myers [05:09]: “As more and more workers went on strike during the Gilded Age, police forces, state militias, and national guards were frequently called in, ostensibly to keep the peace.”

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Character Developments: George Russell and Clay

George Russell’s complex character is examined, especially his interactions with Bill Henderson. Bernard Telsey emphasizes the wealth accumulation of the era and its societal costs, shedding light on George’s internal conflicts and leadership style.

Notable Quote:

Bernie Telsey [02:29]: “Never was so much wealth created, accumulated, made in such a short period of time in the entire world history than it was in America during that time.”

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The Opera War

A subplot involving Bertha's conflict with Mrs. Winterton over opera tickets introduces the "opera war." This storyline intertwines with historical figures like William Seward Webb and the establishment of the Metropolitan Opera, adding depth to the social dynamics portrayed in the show.

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Ada and Luke's Storyline

The hosts explore Ada and Luke's marriage, their visit to Agnes, and the emotional turmoil Ada faces upon hearing of Luke’s cancer diagnosis. This personal tragedy juxtaposes the broader societal conflicts, highlighting the characters' vulnerabilities.

Notable Quote:

Tom Myers [21:09]: “She’s going to be right back where she started. It’s like Ada’s little moment of freedom is coming to a screeching halt.”

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Technology and Invention: Jack’s Alarm Clock

Jack's invention of an oil-free alarm clock serves as a microcosm of the era's innovation boom. The hosts discuss the significance of patents during the Gilded Age and how technological advancements were integral to societal transformation.

Notable Quote:

Tom Myers [25:22]: “Being applied for so many… Inventions were transforming society.”

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Peggy’s Storyline: Sarah Garnett’s School

Peggy’s efforts to preserve black schools in New York, inspired by the real-life Sarah Garnett, underscore the racial tensions and educational struggles of the period. The hosts highlight Sarah Garnett’s historical significance and recent landmark recognition.

Notable Quote:

Tom Myers [27:44]: “Sarah Garnett was appointed principal of the Colored School Number 4… making her one of the first black women to become a principal in the New York City school system.”

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Oscar Van Rhijn and Maude Beaton

The budding relationship between Oscar Van Rhijn and Maude Beaton is analyzed, with discussions on Oscar’s intentions and the social implications of their alliance. The interplay of wealth, power, and personal relationships is a focal point.

Notable Quote:

Tom Myers [24:29]: “Oscar is drawn by various aspects of Maude Beaton… they share a kiss at the botanical garden party.”

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Marion’s Botanical Garden Party

Marion faces an awkward proposal from Dashiell at a botanical garden party, highlighting the limited options for women of her standing during the era. The scene is dissected to reveal the societal pressures and personal conflicts faced by female characters.

Notable Quote:

Tom Myers [31:40]: “If you really want me to.”

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Subplot: Mr. Bannister and Mr. Church’s Feud

A lighter subplot involves the feud and eventual reconciliation between the English butler Mr. Bannister and the American Mr. Church. This storyline adds a layer of personal drama amidst the larger societal conflicts.

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Behind-the-Scenes: Interviews with David Crockett, Bernard Telsey, and Adam Caldwell

The latter part of the podcast features an in-depth discussion with executive producer David Crockett and casting directors Bernard Telsey and Adam Caldwell. They provide insights into:

• Labor Strike Storyline: Bernard Telsey explains the inspiration behind the labor strike plot, drawing from the Homestead Strike and other historical events. The relevance of labor issues today is emphasized.

  Notable Quote:

  Bernie Telsey [37:53]: “Julian is always trying to tell stories that have relevance to what's going on in the world.”

• Character Inspirations: The character of Clay is confirmed to be inspired by Henry Clay Frick, aligning with historical parallels discussed earlier in the episode.

  Notable Quote:

  Tom Myers [40:24]: “Is it a coincidence that his name just happened to be Clay?” Bernie Telsey [40:29]: “No, it's not. There’s truth to that relationship between Andrew Carnegie and Frick.”

• Casting Process: The casting directors discuss the integration of theater actors into the show, highlighting the depth and classical training they bring to their roles. The convergence of stage and screen acting enriches the series’ authenticity.

  Notable Quote:

  Adam Caldwell [43:27]: “With the limited series… it allows so many people in the theater to do a television show in between doing theater gigs.”

• Character Development: Insights into specific character arcs, such as Cedric’s involvement and the nuanced performances that bring authenticity to historical figures, are shared.

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Casting Process and Theater Actors in the Show

The podcast emphasizes the significance of bringing seasoned theater actors into the television landscape, showcasing their ability to handle complex dialogues and period-specific nuances. The collaboration between the casting team and executive producer ensures a cohesive and compelling ensemble.

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Notable Moments and Quotes

Throughout the episode, several impactful moments and quotes stand out:

• George’s Conflict:

  Tom Myers [07:03]: “They’re both very strong-willed people. They’re both really good at what they do. And as we see, they’re both willing to fight for that.”

• Ada and Luke’s Dance:

  Tom Myers [20:13]: “The music box has been hand-cranked by the maid in the other room, playing the lilting melody of the Blue Danube Waltz.”

• Marion’s Proposal:

  Bernie Telsey [55:07]: “So she’s in a real spot. She’s in a tough spot.”

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Conclusion

“Warning Shots” masterfully intertwines historical events with the personal dramas of the Gilded Age elite. Through engaging discussions and expert insights from the podcast’s guests, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the series' storytelling and character development. The episode not only highlights the show's dedication to historical accuracy but also underscores its relevance to contemporary societal issues.

For fans and newcomers alike, this episode serves as a comprehensive guide to understanding the complexities of The Gilded Age, both on-screen and behind the scenes.

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Stay Tuned:
Next week, Alicia and Tom will continue their conversation with David Crockett, Bernie Telsey, and Adam Caldwell, delving further into the intricacies of casting and character development. Don’t miss out on exclusive interviews and behind-the-scenes stories!

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For more content and updates, follow The Official Gilded Age Podcast on Facebook and Instagram.

Transcript

[Tom Myers]

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[Alicia Malone]

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[David Crockett]

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[Tom Myers]

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[David Crockett]

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[Tom Myers]

I know it's silly, but I feel rather nervous. What do I mean?

[Alicia Malone]

You're an independent married woman, fully the.

[Tom Myers]

Equal of Mrs. Venlo, of course.

[David Crockett]

But I'm not sure Agnes will quite see that. Welcome back to the official Gilded Age Podcast. I'm Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies. We are about to dig into episode six of season two, and by we, I mean myself and my co host, Tom Meyers. Hello, hello.

[Tom Myers]

Hi, Alicia. And hello everybody. Yes, I am Tom Myers from the Bowery Boys Podcast. Happy to be back with you all and ready to dig. Now, in the last episode, we swooned as we attended Ada's wedding. We held our breath as Bertha's big dinner with the Duke was nearly sabotaged. And we were scared for the safety of Peggy and T. Thomas Fortun in Alabama. This week, Alicia Our focus is on labor and unions as the workers fight for their rights against robber barons like George Russell.

[David Crockett]

So much happens in this episode and we'll be talking about it all with executive producer David Crockett. And we'll hear stories about how the impressive ensemble of actors were cast in the Gilded Age from veteran casting directors Bernie Telsey and Adam Caldwell.

[Bernie Telsey]

Never was so much wealth created, accumulated, made in such a short period of time in the entire world history than it was in America during that time. You got these grand ballrooms and these parties and this elite society, but it came from somewhere and there were. There were prices to be paid, societally and otherwise.

[Tom Myers]

So let's get digging. This is season two, episode six, Warning Shots, written by Julian Fellowes and directed by Craig Crystal Roberson.

[David Crockett]

The episode starts in Pittsburgh, where Bill Henderson is leading a rally of labourers. They are ready to strike, fighting for fairer working hours and better conditions. Their rally cry is eight Eight. Eight. Which means, Tom, eight hours for work, eight hours for rest, and eight hours for what you will.

[Tom Myers]

Yes. They're actually quoting a popular song of the time called Eight Hours, which was written in 1878 by I.G. blanchard with music by the Reverend Jesse Jones.

[David Crockett]

It sounds kind of religious, like an anthem.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, it was an actual song about achieving what we might call today a better work life balance. It had lyrics like, we want to feel the sunshine, and we want to smell the flowers. We. We are sure that God has willed us, and we mean to have eight hours. We're summoning our forces from the shipyard shop and mill. Eight hours for work, eight hours for rest, eight hours for what we will.

[David Crockett]

And as Clay mentions in this episode, it's the what we will part that business owners particularly objected to. So this was a song, and then it became a chant.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. And by the 1880s, the motto 8 hours for work, 8 hours for rest, 8 hours for what we will had been adopted by the largest labor organization of the time, the Knights of Labor.

[David Crockett]

I remember the Knights of Labor because we talked about them in another episode.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. And they became really powerful in the 1880s. By 1886, in fact, a few years after our show takes place, they had 700,000 members.

[David Crockett]

Wow. That is huge. And here we see George and Clay head off on their train to Pittsburgh to talk to Bill Henderson about the impending strike. And we hear Clay say that he's spoken to the governor, who will send the National Guard. So, Tom, was this unusual for the time to have the government and the National Guard involved in labor strikes?

[Tom Myers]

Not at all. You know, as more and more workers went on strike during the Gilded Age. And by the way, there were a lot of reasons to strike during the Gilded Age. Police forces, state militias, national guards, they'd all be frequently called in, ostensibly to keep the peace.

[David Crockett]

So it's natural that Clay and George would assume that the troops would be on their side.

[Tom Myers]

Absolutely. By the way, stepping back here, I am just. I'm really excited that the show went here, you know, because this is not glamorous stuff. And I think that that is the point. Right. The Gilded Age, the era was exciting in some ways, but it was also dirty and messy, and workers were exploited, you know, and for many, working conditions were dangerous. And their working days were very long, like 12 and 14 hours. And these were the same workers whose physical labor was producing these incredible fortunes that we see back in New York.

[David Crockett]

It's interesting to watch how George operates in the middle of all this. You know, when George And Clay arrive in a carriage at the house of Bill Henderson. I liked how he made Clay essentially wait in the car. He just puts him firmly back in his place.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. George is going to handle this conversation with Henderson on his own. I mean, which, given how warm and fuzzy Clay makes me feel, it's probably for the best.

[David Crockett]

Yeah. And we also get to see George outside of his usual settings. You know, Bill Henderson's house is far removed from his big mansions, his impressive offices. And the low camera angle used in the scene really underscores how claustrophobic and cramped it is for Henderson. You know, you feel the ceiling closing in.

[Tom Myers]

Yes. And it was dark in there. And his family was larger than George's. I mean, there was a table full of kids sitting there crowded into that tiny space.

[David Crockett]

You have to also imagine that George must respect Henderson at least a little for the way that he stands up for what he believes in. You know, as George mentions, they both would claim they try to do their best.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. I think it's notable in the scene how they both lead very different lives. Right. And yet they're so similar. You know, they're both very strong willed people. They're both really good at what they do. And as we see, they're both willing to fight for that.

[David Crockett]

Absolutely. And George seems to be affected by meeting the Henderson family. As he gets up to leave, he says goodbye to Mrs. Henderson and then learns that their son is also working at his mill because there were no.

[Tom Myers]

Other opportunities in the town. You know, like so many industrial towns at the time, these were factory towns. Everything depended on the factory. And George steps outside, he has a kind of tense handshake with Henderson, who can't even look him in the eyes. And George approaches his carriage, walking into this crowd of townspeople who barely part to let him get through. I mean, I didn't even know if they were going to let him get through. It's very unsettling for George, who discusses with Clay back in the carriage. We'll take them out today or soon. He has nothing to gain by giving us more time to prepare. I'll cable the governor and make sure of our new workforce. His wife was there and his children.

[Adam Caldwell]

I'm surprised they were not at school. Is there a school?

[Tom Myers]

I neither know nor care.

[David Crockett]

Oh, Clay is really giving me evil henchman who wants to take over the world for himself kind of vibes. He smells blood and he likes it.

[Tom Myers]

I think he actually smirked, didn't he? Didn't he smile when he said neither know nor care? I mean, that Was evil.

[David Crockett]

So evil. And the next time we return to Pittsburgh, the workers have barricaded the gates so the so called scabs cannot enter the mills. The National Guard is there and shots are fired.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, these are warning shots fired by the troops. And George demands to be taken to the commanding officer. And when he arrives outside, he sees a very tense standoff between the National Guard and the workers.

[David Crockett]

These troops are very ready to fire their guns. So do we know if this particular scene was based on an actual strike?

[Tom Myers]

Well, this situation immediately made me think of the homestead strike of 1892 in which the Amalgamated association of Iron and Steel Workers went on strike against Carnegie Steel. Now, when the workers walked off the job, the company attempted to bring in hundreds of Pinkerton agents to help, you know, reopen the plant with non union labor. But unlike in today's episode, the homestead strike turned violent as the strikers and actually much of the town battled with these Pinkerton agents. And in the end, several agents and several strikers were killed and dozens more were hospitalized, you know, in all of the fighting. And the governor even called in a state militia force of more than 6,000 men to restore order and to reopen the plan.

[David Crockett]

Well, yeah, I mean, I'm just looking online and I see the Homestead strike referred to as the Homestead Riot or even the Homestead Massacre, which I guess really speaks to how violent it got.

[Tom Myers]

It got bad. Yeah. Unlike with the Homestead strike, when Andrew Carnegie was actually off visiting Scotland at the time, George Russell was right there calling the shots, you know, or rather calling for the guards not to shoot.

[David Crockett]

So you say Carnegie wasn't even there. But so who was, you know, calling the shots in that strike?

[Tom Myers]

That, Alicia, is something that I have been waiting to tell you. I've been kind of excited about this. Andrew Carnegie left control of his company at the time of the strike to Henry Clay Frick, the industrialist and robber baron, whose name of course today lives on in his art museum in New York, the Frick collection. But Frick the man was ruthlessly anti union. He hated them. And leading up to the strike, when the homestead union had asked for a raise, tried to negotiate, he countered with an offer to cut their wages by 22%.

[David Crockett]

And you just said Henry Clay Frick. So are you referring to our Clay?

[Tom Myers]

That's it. Yes, Clay. Our Clay here in the show reminds me very much of Henry Clay Frick.

[David Crockett]

So do you think that this character of Clay could actually have been based on Frick?

[Tom Myers]

I mean, it seems implausible now, you know, that he wouldn't have been based on him. That would be some crazy coincidence. We'll have to ask executive producer David Crockett about this when we speak to him shortly.

[David Crockett]

Yeah, we'll have to do that. And, you know, luckily, this strike did not end in bloodshed. If it were in Clay's hands, it probably would have. And you see here the tension between George the businessman and George the family man, because in the end, he just can't stand to see all of these men who have families die.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, and the episode ends there. Right? George is complicated, George is conflicted, and Clay is disgusted at George for caving in.

[David Crockett]

And do you think of George as being a hero here, or does he maybe have another plan up his sleeve? Because the way the episode ends, George gives a look to Henderson that I read as. All right, you've won this round, but just you wait.

[Tom Myers]

I don't know. I so want to think that George is a nice guy at heart. Right? But. But then I remember that the actual Gilded Age robber barons were not really nice guys. And we have also seen George be not nice at all several times.

[David Crockett]

That's right. I mean, he definitely has a shadow side. Well, back to the other big battle now. You know, not quite as deadly, but definitely dirty. The opera war. I'm referring to. Mrs. Winterton has offered to bring to the Met some old money families from the Academy who Bertha or wanted but couldn't get. And she mentions the Wilsons, the Marshalls, and the Webbs.

[Tom Myers]

Ah, yes, remember the Wilsons, the marrying Wilsons, including the son who married Carrie Astor. I don't know the Marshalls. But as for the Webbs, this is probably a reference to William Seward Webb, who had built a railroad fortune and had married Eliza Vanderbilt, the daughter of.

[David Crockett]

William H. Oh, and as people might remember, William H. Vanderbilt was one of the organizers of the Met.

[Tom Myers]

Yes, indeed. Along with his son, William Kay, William Kissim Vanderbilt, who was married to Alva. So I think that the show is kind of playing with us here. The webbs didn't need Mrs. Winterton to bring them over to the Met. They were already on the side of the Met. Mrs. Webb's dad helped plan it. And in fact, the New York Tribune published an article on the opening day of the opera house that listed the Webs as planning to sit inside William H. Vanderbilt's box. So I just don't think that Turner could take credit for that. I'm sorry, did I just take us off on a Gilded Age tangent there, Alicia?

[David Crockett]

You did, but I liked it. And how about Mr. Gilbert agreeing to give away Bertha's box to Mrs. Winterton.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, which is obviously the big drama here. Although Gilbert is completely oblivious to the cat fight that he's just walked into.

[David Crockett]

That's right, he's smiling away. He's completely unaware at what awaits him as he alights George Russell's train for a chat. He's perfectly happy and actually kind of proud as he tells George how the Wintertons have joined the Met and Bertha has air quotes, stepped aside to give them her box, which lets us see.

[Tom Myers]

George Russell in action again. George quickly gets serious and straight to the point, reminding Gilbert that he wrote the check to restart the construction work and that if Bertha doesn't get her box back, Mr. Gilbert will have to repay the amount in full.

[David Crockett]

Well, I mean, it's good that George is fixing all of these problems for Bertha, but I'm just not sure that he has learned his lesson about the dangers of concealing the truth from his wife.

[Tom Myers]

So true. Although I kind of think that Bertha would be really into these dirty details, don't you? Yeah, I think so. And unfortunately, of course, for Gilbert, this awkward conversation with George has lasted a bit longer than anticipated, and the train has literally left the station, and Mr. Gilbert is stuck riding along with George and Clay. It was a really dirty trick.

[David Crockett]

I mean, I love the look that actor Jeremy seamus gives as Mr. Gilbert when he realizes that the train is moving.

[Tom Myers]

He's like, wait, what? Huh?

[David Crockett]

Anyway, Clay tells Mr. Gilbert that he can ride with them to Middleton and get off there. And from my very quick googling efforts, it doesn't seem like Middleton was a real place.

[Tom Myers]

Well, Middletown is a city in New York state. It's about 75 miles north of the city, and it was an important stop on the Erie Railroad, which had been owned by Jay Gould, so perhaps that's the reference. But I do like how dismissive Clay was about the way that they've just really inconvenienced Gilbert. I mean, he kind of acts like Gilbert just missed a subway stop. He can just walk back.

[David Crockett]

Poor Mr. Gilbert. Well, here's a switch from war to romance. Ada and Luke Forte are back in New York after their honeymoon in Niagara Falls, which is not only close to New York, but was also, as I read it, used to be a popular honeymoon destination.

[Tom Myers]

Oh, yeah, like the biggest North American destination for newlyweds. It's a tradition, actually, that goes all the way back to Theodosia Burr, Aaron Burr's daughter, who visited the Falls in 1801 after marrying Joseph Elston. And so then by the Gilded Age here, you know, about 75 years later, trains from the city made that romantic trip to easily accessible to everybody. Even to Aunt Ada.

[David Crockett]

Yeah. And of course, when I hear Niagara Falls, I immediately think of Marilyn Monroe in Niagara.

[Tom Myers]

Of course you do. That's your job.

[David Crockett]

Yeah. But Ada and Luke go to visit agnes back on 61st Street. ADA is nervous, but I thought it was interesting how Luke reminded her that as an independent married woman, she is now fully the equal to Mrs. Van Ryan. I mean, firstly, independent married woman seems a bit like an oxymoron for a woman in the 1880s. But tell us how Ada's social position would have changed as a married woman.

[Tom Myers]

Well, for one, she was now the wife of the rector of St Thomas Church. Right, that was something. And she also still had the cachet of the Brook family name. After all, as Agnes has pointed out early on, were related to the Livingstons.

[David Crockett]

And so would that have made her equal to Agnes by society's standards, even though she didn't have her wealth?

[Tom Myers]

Well, she wouldn't have the Van Rhijn name or the money hovering over her, but she'd also be stepping out of Agnes's shadow. Agnes provided for Ada with her late husband's fortune, so she had a kind of power over her, as we can clearly see on the show. And that would end maybe Ada wouldn't be living as lavishly. But I don't think that'll bother her. I mean, it still seems like she's going to have a pretty. Pretty comfortable life.

[David Crockett]

Yeah, and I can't imagine Ada changing at all. But I will be curious to see if Agnes treats her with any more respect now that she is married.

[Tom Myers]

Well, the tea is not going smoothly. Agnes seems like she's annoyed by everything, including the way that Ada and Luke are holding hands while sitting several feet apart from each other. But then Luke gets up to grab more coffee for Ada and his back goes out.

[David Crockett]

Oh, my gosh. I knew as soon as I saw him wince in pain that this would be bad. It's kind of like that idea of the Chekhov's gun they talk about with writing, that if you introduce a gun into the story, it has to go off at some point. I just had a feeling that that back wasn't just from carrying Ada across the threshold.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, it's been introduced and storm clouds.

[David Crockett]

Seem to be gathering and Luke finally sees a doctor. Ada is very concerned to hear that the doctor is looking into some things. But then, Tom, there's that really sweet moment When Ada and Luke dance to their music box. And little pumpkin is watching.

[Tom Myers]

So sweet. Yes, the music box that has been hand cranked by the maid in the other room, playing the lilting melody of the Blue Danube Waltz, composed by Johann Strauss II, which premiered in Vienna in the 1860s and became a global musical sensation of the time. And it's interesting because we consider it to be, you know, classical music to us, or Great waltz of the 19th century, but at the time of the show, it was only about 15 years old. Mm.

[David Crockett]

And, you know, this scene feels particularly bittersweet because later in the episode and. Ugh, this is so sad. Luke asks Marion to come over so she can be with Ada as he tells her his news. News which Marion then relays to Agnes, Oscar, Peggy and Aurora when she gets back to 61st Street.

[Tom Myers]

He has cancer.

[Bernie Telsey]

But how can that be?

[Tom Myers]

He was here the other day. The only thing wrong with him was a bad back.

[David Crockett]

This one starts with a bad back and then it spreads. He's seen two doctors.

[Tom Myers]

I must look. Look after Ada. Marian, please ask Bannister to fetch me a cab and have Armstrong come and get me ready to go out.

[Bernie Telsey]

Poor Aunt Ada.

[Tom Myers]

She doesn't have much luck. Ugh.

[David Crockett]

That line from Asuka just crushed me.

[Tom Myers]

It's such a sad twist. Even if we felt it coming, it is heartening to see how Agnes immediately springs into action. You know, she's ready to race to her sister's side.

[David Crockett]

Yeah. I just felt such a lump in my throat when Ada sees Agnes and just bursts into tears.

[Tom Myers]

I know. And Agnes comforts her with, I'm here. I'm here. Which is reassuring. And it feels so real. And at the same time, it also seems so unfair. You know, it's like Ada's little moment of freedom that we've just been talking about is coming to a screeching halt. Right. She's going to be right back where she started.

[David Crockett]

Exactly. I am so sad and just, you know, a teensy bit angry that Ada wasn't able to have just a bit more happiness before this tragedy struck.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah.

[David Crockett]

But anyway, we have to move on to Oscar Van Rhijn and his budding relationship with Maude Beaton. Because last episode, we saw him invest some of his money into a business deal that Maud has been involved in. And this week, he returns to meet up with Mr. Crowther, who. Who gives him a cheque. And Tom, he's already made money, but the other investors don't want him.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. In fact, they want to buy him out, like, now. And they try to do just that with a check that is waved about and then handed over to him. And it must have been quite a return on investment.

[David Crockett]

Yeah, I'm dying to know how much was on that cheque because Oscar is a wealthy man. But even his eyebrows raised when he saw the amount.

[Tom Myers]

Nobody can raise his eyebrows like Oscar. Yeah, kudos to Blake Ritson, who plays Oscar for always keeping us guessing. But sitting there in Crowther's office, he thinks it over, reflects upon Maude, and then rips up the check with perfect check ripping sound effects. By the way, Rip. He wants to stay in. And in fact, he returns later to the office with another check to Mr. Crowther to invest even more. Even though Crowther is uncomfortable with this level of investment, Oscar doubles down.

[David Crockett]

Yeah, and the question that I have is whether Oscar is actually trying to help Maud or just himself. I mean, Mr. Crowther seems worried about him using Maude.

[Tom Myers]

Well, he's not alone. Right. Other characters have also expressed worry about Oscar using Maude. Both Charles and Aurora Fane seem worried about, and Aurora is the one who set him up. But Oscar says that he intends to make her happy. He also seems to enjoy dropping the name of her quote unquote father, Jay Gould, as often as he can. So I think he's drawn by various aspects of Maude Beaton.

[David Crockett]

He does seem to really like Maude. I mean, they share a kiss at the botanical garden party.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, that was daring. Tucked away under the honeysuckle. Was it wisteria? Whatever it was, it was dreamy. But alas, Alicia, dreams are cut short by alarm clocks working alarm clocks. It seems that Jack's alarm clock has at long last actually gone off. And not this time during lunch, but in the morning, on time.

[David Crockett]

Good segue there, Tom. Yes. Jack has been working on the escape wheel so it can run without oil. And Bannister encourages Jack to apply for a patent to protect his invention. But it costs $15 to apply and then $20 more if they grant his patent. Money that Jack just doesn't have. So everyone chips in, including Agnes.

[Tom Myers]

John, what is this business? Bannister has been telling me about a clock.

[David Crockett]

John's invented a type of alarm clock. He's applying for a patent. How exciting.

[Tom Myers]

We all rely on alarm clocks, and.

[David Crockett]

Most of them don't work.

[Tom Myers]

I rely on Armstrong, who always sets an alarm.

[David Crockett]

We've all chipped in downstairs for John.

[Tom Myers]

To pay the patent fee. Well, then we must contribute.

[Adam Caldwell]

I think I got enough money.

[Tom Myers]

No one has enough money. Here are five dollars. And I'll give you three. What? Ms. Armstrong asked, would I pay back.

[Alicia Malone]

The money if they don't give me the patent?

[Adam Caldwell]

And I'm not sure I could.

[Tom Myers]

Never mind, Armstrong. I like the idea of supporting an inventor. And now we must go up and change. People can surprise you, can't they? They believe in you and so do I. Oh, we believe in you too, Jack. Don't we, Alicia?

[David Crockett]

Yes, we do.

[Tom Myers]

We would definitely chip in. By the way, the $15 in 1883 would be worth about $450 today.

[David Crockett]

Wow.

[Tom Myers]

Then he would need another $600 in today's money or so if they granted the patent. So, yeah, I mean, you can see how this would have been a lot of cash to find.

[David Crockett]

Yeah, and more than Jack makes, I'm sure.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, definitely.

[David Crockett]

So let's talk about patents, because I know that the Gilded Age was a real time of innovation and invention, so I imagine there were many patents, but.

[Tom Myers]

Being applied for so many. Yeah, I mean, inventions were transforming society. Right. Consider this. By 1860, the US Patent Office had issued only 60,000 patents. But by 1890, that number had jumped to 450,000 and another 235,000 patents would be issued during the next decade. So Jack wanted in on that action.

[David Crockett]

And wait, this is a really jam packed episode because we still need to talk about Peggy. She's back from her harrowing experience in Alabama and Dorothy tells her about schools that need help in New York. The education board is trying to shut down black schools, including the one run by Sarah Garnett, who was a real person.

[Tom Myers]

Oh, yeah, she was a real person. She was born Sarah Smith in Brooklyn in 1831 and. And in her early 20s, she became a public school teacher at a black school in Brooklyn as schools were segregated by race. And then a Decade later, in 1863, she was appointed principal of the Colored School Number 4 on West 17th street in Manhattan's Chelsea neighborhood, making her one of the first black women to become a principal in the New York City school system. And this was in 1863, right. At the same time that New York was overtaken by the anti black mob violence called the Civil War Draft riots.

[David Crockett]

Yeah, and we talked about those riots last season because that was one of the reasons that so many African Americans moved to Brooklyn where they felt safer.

[Tom Myers]

Indeed. Yes. And Sarah, living in Brooklyn, but working here on West 17th street was in the school at the time of the riots as white rioters were beating on the doors of the school trying to get inside. The night before, mobs had burned The Colored Orphan Asylum to the ground in midtown. But according to the New York Times, Sarah rose to the challenge of protecting the children. Under her charge, they barricaded doors. They kept the mob from entering. And later that day, Tompkins escorted many of the school children safely to their homes through the dangerous streets before heading to her own home in Brooklyn.

[David Crockett]

Wow, she really sounds extraordinary.

[Tom Myers]

Yes, clearly she was. And she would also become active in the suffrage movement and was a co founder of the National Women's Afro American Union of New York. She married the abolitionist Henry highland Garnet in 1875. Her first husband, Samuel Tompkins, had died 20 years before. So yes, extraordinary. And a principal in Manhattan at the time of our story.

[David Crockett]

And in our story, we hear that the education board sees the black schools as inferior and plans to shut down all three schools. So Peggy joins Dorothy at Sarah Garnett's dress shop for a meeting and then decides to pitch an article to T. Thomas Fortune. But she wants another writer to cover it because she's worried about how it may appear if she and Fortune write every article together.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, careful, Peggy. And by the way, I am also really happy that this plotline has been introduced in real life. Today, this story is finally receiving more attention, largely because of a years long campaign that has been led by historian Eric K. Washington in New York to landmark the historic school building at 128 West 17th street where Sarah served as principal. And happily, I'm happy to report that just a few months ago, back In May of 2023, the city's landmarks Preservation Commission designated the school as a city landmark.

[David Crockett]

Oh, that's amazing. And I'm sure we'll be talking more about Sarah Garnett in future episodes. But then, Tom, there was Daschle's big botanical garden party where he is receiving a plaque for the Montgomery solarium. And everyone wants Marian to attend the celebrations. I mean, even the other teacher at her school, school, where she's teaching the underprivileged, tells her to go. And Tom, we soon find out why.

[Tom Myers]

Oh boy, here it comes. The awkward proposal that just was wrong.

[David Crockett]

I mean, I just felt so sorry for Marian. This is an impossible situation because everyone is looking at her, they're staring at her, they're waiting for her to accept. I think Agnes even accepts for her before she even has a chance to say anything. I don't know. I probably would have done the same thing if I was in Marian's shoes. You know, just. Yes. To avoid the embarrassment. What do you think you would have done?

[Tom Myers]

Oh, yeah. I would have said yes to Dashiell. I mean, I like guys with beards. I'm sure he's great. I mean, it's just Marian's line, I guess I do. If that's what you want. I mean, it just was not the enthusiastic yes, you know, that he was probably anticipating. But she was in a jam.

[David Crockett]

Yeah, she really was. And, you know, the other thing I was wondering as I was watching this scene was, you know, where were the botanical gardens at this time?

[Tom Myers]

Well, there were smaller botanical gardens in and around the city, but the New York Botanical Gardens in the Bronx, which we all know and love today, wouldn't be established until 1891 on the grounds of the old Lorillard estate. And by the way, the founding officers in charge of that effort included Andrew Carnegie, just one year before the homestead strike, JP Morgan, you know, of the Morgans, and Cornelius Vanderbilt, whose railroad actually created a stop for the gardens.

[David Crockett]

It just always comes back to the same families, doesn't it?

[Tom Myers]

And the same boxes. All of them with boxes and Tom.

[David Crockett]

In our final storyline, we see revenge and then resolution between the two butlers, the. The English Mr. Bannister and the American Mr. Church. Bannister thinks that he has one up on Church when he spots him staggering home drunk after a night out. And he's excited to send a letter to George Russell telling him about Church's behavior. As he says, is it revenge I seek or is it justice? And by the way, what about that great drunken fall by Jack gilpin, who plays Mr. Church? It was perfect.

[Tom Myers]

He just went straight down. Good thing that there were some boxes there, you know, to break his fall.

[David Crockett]

Yeah.

[Tom Myers]

Bannister later finds out it was the 30th anniversary of his wife's death, who had died of smallpox at just 24 years old.

[David Crockett]

So young, you know. But luckily, Bannister manages to rip up the letter to George before George receives it. Just. I mean, that was a close call.

[Tom Myers]

Just in the nick of time. I didn't think that Church was going to hand it over.

[David Crockett]

No, I thought he was going to read it. When he offered to read it, I thought, oh, here it goes.

[Tom Myers]

But this is going to get awkward.

[David Crockett]

Then Bannister officially ends his feud with Church, you know, shaking his hand and forgiving him.

[Tom Myers]

And with that, Alicia, we have cleared up at least one of the dramas on the show. I'm happy to see that the two butlers have resolved their differences. I mean, there is so much uncertainty happening right now in the Gilded Age. Just let Bannister and Church be friends.

[David Crockett]

I agree. I'm so glad that they're friends again. And you know, with that, we need to take a break. But we have plenty more coming up for you here on the official Gilded Age podcast.

[Tom Myers]

Yes. Coming up, Alicia and I will be talking to executive producer David Crockett, plus casting directors Bernie Telsey and Adam Caldwell. So stay listening. If you went on a road trip and you didn't stop for a Big.

[Bernie Telsey]

Mac or drop a crispy fry between.

[Tom Myers]

The car seats or use your McDonald's bag as a plastic place, Matt, then that wasn't a road trip. It was just a really long drive.

[Alicia Malone]

At participating McDonald's.

[Tom Myers]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[David Crockett]

Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy taxes and fees extra.

[Tom Myers]

See mintmobile.com Hit pause on whatever you're.

[David Crockett]

Listening to and hit play on your next adventure. Stay two nights and get a $50 Best Western gift card. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. Tell them to stand down.

[Alicia Malone]

What?

[Tom Myers]

Tell. Don't weaken now.

[David Crockett]

Tell them.

[Tom Myers]

Captain, Stand down. The troops company recover.

[Bernie Telsey]

Front rank.

[Tom Myers]

Stand.

[David Crockett]

Oo A very tense scene. And we're back. This is the official Gilded Age podcast. I'm Alicia Malone, joined by Tom Myers and Tom, we have a trio of special guests.

[Tom Myers]

That's right, we have three of the key crew members behind the making of the show. David Crockett is the executive producer of the Gilded Age, his first TV series as ep. After years of producing films such as working with director Ben Affleck on the Oscar nominated movie Gone Baby Gone, Bernie Telsey has worked as a casting director for many years for both the screen and stage, including casting hit Broadway musicals such as Rent and Hamilton, he and his casting director partner, Adam Caldwell have been responsible for bringing together the impressive cast of the Gilded Age. And Adam has also cast multiple other TV shows such as Little America, Bernie.

[David Crockett]

Telsey, Adam Caldwell, and David Crockett. Thank you all so much for joining us.

[Alicia Malone]

Glad to be here.

[Bernie Telsey]

Thanks for Having us.

[Tom Myers]

It's great to be here. Yep. We are so excited to talk to all of you. Now, David, season two of the Gilded Age has already been full of battles, right? We've got the opera war, Bertha versus Turner, Bertha versus George. But the climax of today's episode, as we just heard, is the war in Pittsburgh between George's company and his steelworkers. That was a really tense scene. And quite frankly, it takes a surprising turn. Alicia and I were speaking a few minutes ago about the parallels with the homestead strike of 1892, which turned out deadlier. Could you talk about this storyline a bit? And did you base it on Homestead or on other strikes? Why was this important to include?

[Bernie Telsey]

That's a lot of questions there. And the answer to all of them.

[Tom Myers]

Is yes.

[Bernie Telsey]

We did base it loosely on the homestead strike. There was also. There were other strikes that we used around this time that really helped kind of inform this story. Then, of course, we had to really look at the characters and what we could fit in. Julian is always trying to tell stories that have relevance to what's going on in the world. You know, it makes it more relatable to everybody, characters in the world, if you kind of understand them. And this storyline is just. It's just an incredibly relevant storyline today. You know, how many different companies and industries are going through some sort of wage or labor or union issues. And of course, I'm not just talking about our industry of film and television, but, you know, shipping and E commerce and restaurants and retailers. So it's such a relevant story to our time. One other thing that was also kind of relevant to. And why this story was so relevant to George's time and to, you know, the world of 1883, which is what this season is set in, is that, you know, the first Labor Day, Labor Day parade, I believe it was, was held in New York in 1882. So this is of that time. You know, there's great wealth being amassed by these. By these men, by these robber barons. So we're kind of in that time, in George's time, in that soup. And that's kind of where we kind of come into it at the beginning of the season with these men, the Goulds and the Trentons. They all have a meeting and they're all like, okay, what are we gonna do about this? You know, this is. We're all having this problem and nobody. Because if one of us gives, then we're all going to have to give. So, you know, that's kind of where our story begins over the first couple episodes.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. And it also kind of takes the show in another dimension, you know, because it isn't just upstairs and downstairs. It's also this other layer, right. Of where this money behind the ballrooms. Where does it come from?

[Bernie Telsey]

Never was so much wealth created, accumulated, made in such a short period of time in the entire world history than it was in America during that time. So with all of that, yeah, you got these grand ballrooms and these parties and this elite society, but it came from somewhere. And there were prices to be paid societally and otherwise.

[Tom Myers]

And can you just answer a question that popped up earlier in our conversation here? In the Homestead strike, Andrew Carnegie placed control in the hands of Henry Clay Frick.

[Bernie Telsey]

Correct.

[Tom Myers]

Is it a coincidence that his name just happened to be Clay?

[Bernie Telsey]

I think not. No, it's not. And I think what you'll see, and you can see it already in this season, and there's truth to that relationship between Andrew Carnegie and Frick, the real people. There was a friction in their relationship. They both, you know, had many of the same goals, but they also looked at the world very differently. And I think that sort of is set up here in that Clay is pretty upset with George and he has one way to do it. Clay's way is to press on and people get hurt. People get hurt. You know, that's not my problem. We're gonna succeed. And so there's a lot of similarities there. Yes, good to pick up on that. I'm glad you did.

[David Crockett]

You know, it is so rare for the Gilded Age to have almost an action scene, this very tense battle scene. So, David, what went into the staging and the planning of shooting this scene?

[Bernie Telsey]

Oh, it was a huge endeavor. Our team was great for that. Crystal Roberson, the director of this episode, came on early to prep for this because it was such a big thing. And so once we found that location and then tried to design both the visual effects around it, but also, how are we going to tell that story? That story could have been 20 pages long. There were battle lines drawn in the Homestead strike, and it really was sort of a fortress that was surrounded and being defended and with Pinkertons or militia coming to attack. So we had all of those, all of that history, all of those analogies, all of that to work with, and then trying to morph that into a three or four minute sequence took a lot. Yeah, it was a great fun, but a real challenge.

[David Crockett]

And of course, you have a cast who is able to do whatever you throw at them. Tom and I have talked a lot about how many great theatre actors are in the cast of the Gilded Age. And, you know, I remember when there was such a divide between TV actors and movie actors and also theater actors and screen actors. And many of these actors are veteran theater actors, but ones I've never really seen on TV before. So, Bernie, I was wondering, is there still that divide, do you think, about theater versus screen?

[Adam Caldwell]

Not anymore. I mean, I remember growing up in casting, there was definitely the divide. There was even a divide between LA and New York, and now it's all one because there's so much television happening and so much good television that everybody wants to be working. So the theater people can really work in television now, especially with the limited series that are happening. You know, it's not 22 episodes, it's 12 episodes, or it's 16 or it's eight. So it allows so many people in the theater to do a television show in between doing theater gigs. And this one specifically, like, everybody wanted to be on it right from season one. I mean, Adam, we have so many stories of everybody calling and wanting to.

[Alicia Malone]

Be considered for it and coming in and being game for the play, of it, being provided with the playground of all these different roles, especially for women of a certain age. That was really lovely that they were excited about a lot of these roles. Singing each other in the lobbies and celebrating opposite each other. That they were, like, so excited and had a great time in the room. And a lot of it goes to Michael Engler, too, who comes from theater.

[Adam Caldwell]

Yeah, he wanted this to be his repertory company, you know, and whether they had five episodes or 20 episodes, like, let's just get all of our favorite New York actors and put them somewhere in the Gilded Age, you know?

[Tom Myers]

But the Washington Post counted all of the Tony Award award winners and nominees. Did you see that? 56 in season one. 56 nominations and 22 wins.

[Adam Caldwell]

Listen, we were doing that in our own office.

[Tom Myers]

You know what I mean?

[Adam Caldwell]

I mean, it was thrilling and exciting, and then it became like, oh, sorry, you don't have one. We can. But that was only between us. But no, it's, you know, it's the creme of the creme.

[Tom Myers]

What are some of the benefits of having trained stage actors in a show like this?

[Alicia Malone]

I would say that the biggest overlap would be in the experience with language. Right. Like, there are plenty of amazing actors who. Who don't necessarily feel right for a certain period. Although this isn't classic text, a lot of these people have. Have experience with classic text and have studied it being in shows where they've had to embody a character from a different time and place that makes Julian's dialogue sing and feel grand, but still real.

[David Crockett]

It's been really fun to see the core cast develop their characters even more in season two. I've loved watching Ada's storyline, although this episode was so sad. So, David, you know, why do you have to break our hearts like this? Can't Ada have just a little bit more happiness, please?

[Bernie Telsey]

We have a very large cast, and we also able to get some of these actors for periods of time. You know, we can't have everybody for a run of show of all the years we hope to go. So that. That's one reason. The other reason is it's a really nice and sort of true arc to the time. I mean, we see these people who live these lives. I mean, if we really got into the nitty gritty. People are being run over by carriages on a daily basis on these streets. People are falling ill. As Peggy, we saw with Peggy's son and the adoptive mother, Scarlet fever, I mean, that ran through Philadelphia around this time. We're not having to create those stories. They just happened. So there obviously wasn't the modern medicine and the modern things. So these things happened and were relatively common.

[David Crockett]

Yeah. And Cynthia Nixon is great casting as Ada, because I feel like this is a different role to ones I've seen her in before. She's very soft, and it seems like she loves this character. You know, is she involved in creating the storyline? Does she get excited about that?

[Bernie Telsey]

You know, Cynthia's always really evolved. She frequently really kind of reads through her story, the arc of her story, and will have those conversations with Michael and with me and on occasion with Julian, and we will go over and over that with her. So she cares deeply kind of about all of the individual beats. The individual moments for Ada are very close to her. Not that they're not for everybody else, but she takes that extra level of really sort of digging in on a regular basis with. With us all about it. How can you get better than that?

[Adam Caldwell]

She was very much involved in the casting of Robert Shawn Leonard, you know, and Adam could talk a little bit about that, but, you know, they have a history together from doing plays, you know, 30, 40 years ago almost. They were teenagers. They did something.

[Alicia Malone]

But this was a reunion of sorts. And I think and hope that that that warmth between them and that chemistry between them really plays into what we needed to accomplish for the story in a very short time of establishing this connection and these gentle souls uniting and hopefully we care for them, and it's tough as they get bad news.

[Tom Myers]

I'm curious about the casting process. I mean, for season two, you have an established ensemble. Is the process any different when you're bringing new people in, like Robert Sean Leonard or Laura Benanti? I mean, do you have. Do you have to see how they fit into the bigger ensemble in a different way? Sure.

[Alicia Malone]

I think that the biggest thing about season two is that one, we had less time. We had a great amount of time for season one for pulling it together. But then also because season one's process had been so extensive and we talked about so many people and considered so many people. There's quite a lot of people in season two that were very much in the mix in some way or discussed previously. So the shorthand was faster of, oh, well, we already know that Michael and Julian or the team loved this person.

[Tom Myers]

And what about when you're using or when you're casting a real life character? You know, we've seen already, obviously, Caroline Astor, Ward McAllister, T. Thomas Fortune. In this season so far, we've met Booker T. Washington and even Oscar Wilde. Right. These were real people. What considerations go into casting them? I mean, are you basing it on how much an actor looks like what we know the person looked like at the time? How does that work?

[Alicia Malone]

It's certainly a component of it that there's.

[Adam Caldwell]

It's like a flavor, you know, you want to have a recognizable flavor, I think, you know, so that the audience can, oh, I see what they're doing or I see what the story that they're telling. You know, it's not an exact lookalike. But enough of.

[David Crockett]

I think Nathan Lane brings his own flavor as well to Ward McAllister. I love watching him in this role. Wow.

[Adam Caldwell]

Yeah, it's really fun because he fits right in, and he's the opposite of anyone he's playing with. You know, whether it's either side of the street, he fits in.

[Alicia Malone]

And he was really enthusiastic about learning as much as he could about the period and about the character and bringing that, discussing that with Michael and Julian and having questions about it and very carefully considered everything in the dialect as well. How Hardy's trying to get it absolutely right or what it should be.

[David Crockett]

David, how does your job intersect with Bernie and Adams? Are you there in the audition rooms or watching the Self tapes? How involved do you get in the casting process?

[Bernie Telsey]

Well, I talked to Bernie and Adam. For better or for worse, I'll let them be the judge of that. It Seems like almost every day for better. Exactly. But I'm helping the process as much. It is not my area of expertise. I probably bring somewhere between 0.5 and 0.7%. Let me do the math real quick of the ideas to the table. But between Michael and Bernie and Adam, they're really bringing those people to the table and then we're going through. I'm part of that group, but it's really those three who are the core of our casting group. And one of the biggest reasons we're in New York or we film in New York, and HBO was so gracious to place the show in New York is because of this deep well of incredibly talented and properly classically trained actors. So the pool is. Is deep. So we're constantly. I would say I'm probably most in the helping to shuffle around and say, maybe this person for that. Or let's give these three to Michael or to Julian and let's keep that person for this and that sort of thing. So I will say that one of the most exciting things for me is I watch copious amounts of television and film and all of that, and that's where my background is. But then you come and you see people just in this season alone, like Jeremy Shamos, who plays Mr. Gilbert from the Metropolitan Opera. And I didn't know him from before, but yet his performance is so specific and perfect that now I've learned that whole thing and that whole fun. You know, we joke. One of my favorite lines from the season is when Mrs. Astor comes up to him at the beginning of the season and says, I think Bertha says, oh, do you know Mr. Gilbert? She says, oh, you're grubbing up money for the Metropolitan Opera House. And he's not flattering, but true. So, you know, we have those. It's Laura Benanti, Matilda Lawlor, of course, Robert Sean Leonard, who we all know from his many roles. But there are the other Chris Denham, David Furr, who you all know. I know, but I don't know the way Bernie and Adam know. And it's so rewarding and wonderful. I hope the audience experiences a lot of that, which is they get to know these people in a different level.

[Adam Caldwell]

So we're incredibly fortunate, specifically with this show. You know what's great about having David on the team? Even before we get the actual scripts or the actual description from Julian or Michael, because David's involved in all of those script plots and outlines, he'll give us a heads up about there's going to be this guy and he's going to be there because he needs to do this, that and the other. He starts to give us a sense of the character so we can start thinking way before we even need to, so that we can narrow it down by the time we have to show Michael and Julian and Gareth, you know, choices. But it's great having David as that conduit in between.

[Bernie Telsey]

Inside man, informant. Yeah, yeah.

[Alicia Malone]

David is good at maneuvering through all of the steps and getting us the information we need, which is often changing on a daily basis. But he and his team are amazing at helping us out in predicting what's going to happen and what's essential to happen in the next 24 hours.

[Tom Myers]

In this episode, Henderson, the union boss, there's a moment where he shakes George's hand outside of his house. And the look on his face. So good, right? It's like, so good. And it just. It says a million words. It just says the whole thing right there.

[Bernie Telsey]

I have to shake this man's hand, but I don't have to give him the underlying respect that a handshake with this man would deserve. And it's just the way he looks away. I completely agree. I'm so glad you saw that, rewatching it recently. Saw that. And it's really something.

[Alicia Malone]

Morgan, as George, is so wonderful, and it's the first time we get to see him really out of his element from the world that he's used to, versus all of the people in the town and the conflict that he's up.

[Tom Myers]

Against over the botanical garden where Marian is. She's in such a tough spot, right? Getting this very public proposal from Dashiell. I am curious, David, how we, the audience, are supposed to feel about this relationship. I mean, she's clearly conflicted. We're conflicted. He's a nice guy. Right? But how are we supposed to feel?

[Bernie Telsey]

I think you put it really well, and it's a word I think we used a lot, which is, she's in a spot. She's in a real spot. I think it's a bit underplayed on our show, the reality of the fact that it's underplayed, because we. I think we follow so many women's storylines and all of our characters seem so active with so much going on. But the truth is that Marian, she wouldn't have had many options. I mean, from the beginning, literally the first episode, Agnes and Ada, the aunts, came in and they implied she could help out with some charities, but really it was that. And she should meet some young people because she's gonna need to find a husband. I mean, that's her life's work. And then, you know, I think back to the end of the season when Marian is talking to Peggy, end of the first season, and she's, you know, she doesn't have some burning passion. She doesn't want to change the world. She just wants to be busy. She wants to do something. She wants to contribute, and she doesn't want to wait for her husband throughout the season as she. When she teaches, when she's in that classroom with those girls, she can relate to them. And I think Marian. I think Louisa, who plays Marian, kind of shines in those moments. She really kind of spreads her wings. And then Dashiell comes along, and he's not a bad choice. He's not a bad guy.

[Tom Myers]

He's.

[Bernie Telsey]

He ticks a lot of boxes.

[Alicia Malone]

Perfect on paper.

[Bernie Telsey]

Yeah, he does. He's perhaps not the most exciting handsome, but he is handsome. As Agnes points out, Good father. Good father. And she really enjoys rich Frances, Dashiell's daughter. And she is. At the end of the day, she is Marian. So she kind of bops into the botanical gardens. She's a little late, but she's there. And then, you know, Dashiell, in his moment, pulls her up and gets on a knee, and, you know, she starts to tear up. She looks at Frances, she looks at her aunts, and maybe even on the corner, Larry has a little look of like, what the heck's going on here? And, you know, she gives the answer every guy wants to hear. Well, if you really want me to.

[David Crockett]

Yeah, Cringe, cringe.

[Bernie Telsey]

So she's in a real spot.

[Tom Myers]

He also, don't forget, kind of like put down her career in this episode.

[Adam Caldwell]

I know. I did. Not like that.

[Tom Myers]

Ooh, you're not a real teacher.

[Bernie Telsey]

But we had to be reminded, like, you know, that Dashiell, that wasn't unusual. That was like what 98% of the guys would have said. It's not. Yeah, but I mean, of course you want to be a mom and raise my kid and wait for me at the end of the day. I mean, who wouldn't want that, you know? So. Yeah, no, it's rough.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. But Marian's face there, I mean, what an amazing expression. Adam, we were reading in Variety that you knew Louisa Jacobson prior to casting her as Marian.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, yes. We knew her basically through Yale Drama School, is what she was graduating from. And our office, again from Castellatto Theater. We had cast her in a production at Williamstown Theatre Festival so that was our first experience with her. She was an audition reader for us in the past when she really wanted to be immersed into it. Oh, and at Williamstown, we also had cast Ben Allers, who plays Jack in the same production. So they had met each other. Ben I had met at University of Michigan when he was still a student. I was doing a masterclass with them and getting to see how talented he was. I thought of him for Williamstown Theatre Festival, and he auditioned and was cast in that. And then to the. I mean, it's really remarkable to see the way people grow. And Louisa as well.

[David Crockett]

David, what impresses you the most about Danae as an actress? Because just this season alone, we've seen Peggy go through grief. I mean, she's dealt with horrific racism and possibly falling in love with a married man. I mean, she does it so well.

[Bernie Telsey]

Danae just kills it on every level. I mean, her character, as you mentioned. Yeah, Peggy is going through so much. And at her simplest level, she's not unlike Marian. She's a young trying to find her place in the world, but she's got so much more going against her, so many more challenges going against her. So, yeah, to see her kind of take on those challenges, she doesn't have to have all of the lines in the scene or have to have all of the moments, but she is telling you so much, you know, at the Van Rhijn household or at Booker T. Washington's table, she is telling you so much with a word, a key phrase here, an expression there, and is really doing it without all of those lines. And then conversely, on the flip side, once she gets to those moments with, you know, sitting with the adoptive father of her son and learning about that loss, or in the barn with Fortune being chased by, you know, a mob or even milking, you know, a cow, which is, you know, so she delivers it with grace and emotion and humor. I mean, again, she's got it all. And again, if we could just hear her sing, I think it would bring it all full circle.

[Tom Myers]

We've gotta make that happen. Wow, this has been really insightful. Thank you all so much for your time. David Crockett, Bernie Chelsea, and Adam Caldwell, thank you for being here.

[Alicia Malone]

Thanks for having us.

[Adam Caldwell]

Thank you.

[Bernie Telsey]

Great fun.

[Tom Myers]

Great fun. Wow, Alicia, such an interesting conversation. And I just have to say, I'm so happy that David cleared up the whole Clay, Clay Frick, Henry Clay mystery. There was a connection there.

[David Crockett]

Yeah, you were right, as always. You're so good at spotting these things and, you know, right at the end there, they spoke about Danae Benton singing, and before we started recording, we were talking about how many musical stars there are in this cast. I mean, wouldn't you love to see a musical episode of the Gilded Age?

[Tom Myers]

We would just keep asking them for it until it finally happens. At least one episode, a very special like Gilded Age Christmas or something. They can make this happen.

[David Crockett]

Yes. Let's do it. Well, unfortunately, we have to wrap it up for today, but don't forget that you can see new episodes of the HBO original series the Gilded Age Sundays on Max. And then make sure you tune into our podcast, also available on Macs or wherever you get your podcasts. Speak to you next week.

[Tom Myers]

Bye bye. This has been the official Gilded Age Podcast written, hosted and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers. Our supervising producer is Andrew Pemberton Fowler.

[David Crockett]

Our editor is Trey Boody. With special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt and Siobhan Slater from HBO and Hannah Petterson and Amy Machado from Pot People.

[Tom Myers]

Listen to the official Gilded Age Podcast after each episode airs on Max or wherever you find podcasts.

[David Crockett]

Want even more extra content and behind the scenes moments from the Gilded Age? Follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Gilded Age HBO to join the conversation today.

[Tom Myers]

The official Gilded Age Podcast is a production of HBO in partnership with Pod People.

[David Crockett]

Pod People.