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The Official Gilded Age Podcast
S2 Ep. 7: “Wonders Never Cease” with Luke Harlan and Sean Flanigan
01:05:54
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- [00:00]
Tom Myers
If you went on a road trip and you didn't stop for a Big.
- [00:02]
Alicia Malone
Mac or drop a crispy fry between the car seats or use your McDonald's bag as a placemat, then that wasn't a road trip.
- [00:10]
Tom Myers
It was just a really long drive.
- [00:14]
Luke Harlan
At participating McDonald's. Now more than ever, Lowes knows you don't just want a low price. You want the lowest price. And with our lowest price guarantee, you can count on us for competitive prices on all your home improvement projects. If you find a qualifying lower price somewhere else on the same item, we'll match it Lowe's. We help you save price match applies the same item current price at qualifying retailers. Exclusions and terms apply. Learn how we'll match price@lowe's.com lowest price guarantee.
- [00:50]
Tom Myers
You seem very earnest. What are you talking about?
- [00:54]
Sean Flanagan
Peggy's work at the Globe.
- [00:56]
Tom Myers
It's very important, of course, but I.
- [00:58]
Sean Flanagan
Think tonight we should just admire the bridge and give thanks for what man.
- [01:04]
Tom Myers
Has achieved in our lifetime. Hello, and welcome to the official Gilded Age podcast. I'm Tom Myers from the Bowery Boys podcast and sitting with me is Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies. Hi, Alicia.
- [01:21]
Sean Flanagan
Hi, Tom. And hello to all of you fellow Gilded Age enthusiasts. Can you believe that we're up to episode seven of season two, the second to last episode? No, don't worry. There is plenty more to come before the big finale. So last week, Tom, there was a tense standoff involving the striking workers at George Russell's Pittsburgh mill. Dashiell proposed to Marion in a very public way, and Luke Forte revealed that he has cancer.
- [01:50]
Tom Myers
That was a lot. And this week we're focusing on the grand opening of the Brooklyn Bridge. We'll be throwing a party and watching the fireworks with awe and talking about this major historical event with co producer Luke Harlan and the talented head of the Gilded Age hair department, Sean Flanagan.
- [02:10]
Luke Harlan
Julian originally had the idea of a rags to riches story for Jack, and that really, we all got really excited about that. And then the research team came back with a lot of different historical examples of rags to riches. And there was all sorts of things, bicycles. But the one that Julian and all of us really found exciting was this clock idea that Jack could actually invent something.
- [02:33]
Sean Flanagan
This is season two, episode seven, Wonders Never Cease, written by Julian Fellowes and Sonja Warfield and directed by Michael Engler. The episode begins with Bunty being rolled out to celebrate the opening of the Brooklyn Bridge in real life. This happened on May 24, 1883. And Tom, just like we see here the whole City was abuzz with excitement.
- [03:05]
Tom Myers
Oh, the city had been waiting for this moment for years. Construction on what was then called the East River Bridge had actually started 13 years before, in early 1870. So for more than a decade, residents of both Brooklyn and New York City had watched in awe as this massive neo Gothic suspension bridge rose out of the East River.
- [03:30]
Sean Flanagan
And nothing like that had been achieved before.
- [03:33]
Tom Myers
That's right, yeah. Its central span is nearly 1600ft. Nothing that long had even been thought possible. And it also straddles the east river connecting, you know, two separate cities.
- [03:46]
Sean Flanagan
I mean. Yeah. Because now we think of Manhattan and Brooklyn as being two different boroughs in New York City. But back at this time, they were two separate cities.
- [03:57]
Tom Myers
Yes. And would stay that way until 1898. New York City was the largest city in the U.S. right. And it was comprised of today's Manhattan and parts of the Bronx. And it had a population of about 1.2 million people in 1880. And Brooklyn was the country's third largest city in 1880 and had about 600,000 residents. So this bridge, which was architecturally beautiful. Right. And was a fine feat of engineering, it also literally linked these two super important cities for the very first time. It created a super city, or what Emma Lazarus in her 1883 poem, the New Colossus called, quote, the Twin Cities.
- [04:44]
Sean Flanagan
And as we saw in season one, Brooklyn residents like Peggy had to go back and forth across the east river via a ferry, which was not at all convenient.
- [04:53]
Tom Myers
No, no. And much less predictable. Many Brooklyn residents worked in Manhattan, of course, but those ferry commutes could get really long in bad weather. Or even worse, they could stop indefinitely, you know, if the river froze. We've seen this happen on the show before.
- [05:11]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah, I remember in the very first episode of the show, Peggy couldn't cross because of bad weather, so she came to 61st street with Marian.
- [05:19]
Tom Myers
But now this new bridge would make commuting a breeze. And the same year that it opened in 1883, Cable Car Service started whisking passengers back and forth on the bridge as well, which further sped things up.
- [05:32]
Sean Flanagan
And in this episode, you know, we see the sense of wonder the characters have for the bridge. We just heard Arthur remark that the they should give thanks for what man has achieved in their lifetime.
- [05:43]
Tom Myers
Yeah. Remember last season, we saw Edison do the impossible. He brought a kind of daylight to the streets and the buildings at night. And we saw the wonder on everybody's faces as they absorbed that change. Well, here in this episode, we see a similar sense of awe. Right. As Our characters appreciate how nature has been tamed and how these two magnificent cities have been forever tied together. And they're here, right in the middle of it, and their lives are changed for the better because of it.
- [06:15]
Sean Flanagan
Absolutely. But there was sacrifice and tragedy along the way.
- [06:20]
Tom Myers
There was a sense of tragedy that had been linked to the bridge for years. At least 20 workers died during its construction, and another 12 died in a stampede that occurred one week after the bridge opened. And we see Chief Engineer Washington Roebling in this episode, but we don't see or hear about his father, John Roeblane, who was the mastermind behind the bridge and originally designed it, and who in 1869, suffered a freak accident while doing survey work and died. And so the role of chief engineer then passed down to his son, Washington Roebling, who had been working for his father.
- [06:59]
Sean Flanagan
And Washington was married to Emily Roebling, who is a big part of this episode.
- [07:04]
Tom Myers
That's right. And as we heard back in episode five, when they were married for their honeymoon, Washington and Emily actually toured Europe, visiting suspension bridges and construction sites.
- [07:17]
Sean Flanagan
A very romantic honeymoon. So once Washington took over as the chief engineer of this bridge project, what happened then?
- [07:26]
Tom Myers
Well, he got right to work on the sinking of the caissons. Caissons are the pressurized chambers that dug down into the riverbed, right, to lay the foundations for the towers. However, many of the men who were digging down in those pressurized caissons soon began getting sick with what was called the bends, or caisson's disease. And soon that included Washington Roebling as well. And so then, just a couple of years here, after taking over the project from his father, Washington largely had to remain in his home in Brooklyn Heights, still directing the project, but really unable to visit the work site often. He would then watch the towers take shape through a small telescope from his home. And he really relied on his wife Emily then, for the day to day management of the project. And the whole world was watching, including.
- [08:21]
Sean Flanagan
The President of the United States, Chester Arthur, who we see in this episode.
- [08:26]
Tom Myers
Yes, President Arthur was there on the opening day of the bridge, May 24, 1883. There was an elaborate procession, including 14 platoons of the 7th Regiment and marching bands and dozens of carriages that descended Fifth Avenue. Picked up President Arthur at the Fifth Avenue Hotel, along with Governor Grover Cleveland of New York State and Mayor Edson of New York City, along with, you know, several cabinet members and city aldermen, anybody who was important. And they made their way down to the bridge and walked all the way across to the Brooklyn side. Of the bridge, followed, you know, by throngs, thousands of people. And when they reached the Brooklyn side of the bridge, the Brooklyn Mayor, Seth Low, stepped forward and linked arms with New York Mayor Edson. And the President was standing there cheering them on. And the crowd screamed their approval.
- [09:22]
Sean Flanagan
It was like a literal linking of the two cities there.
- [09:26]
Tom Myers
Yes, indeed.
- [09:27]
Sean Flanagan
So did the President then go to the Roebling house in Brooklyn? You know, as we see in the show?
- [09:32]
Tom Myers
Well, yeah. After several long speeches had been given on the Brooklyn side, then the entire presidential party moved through the streets of today's Brooklyn Heights to the Roebling home on Columbia Heights, where Washington and Emily sat in their parlor shaking hands with the President and countless other dignitaries.
- [09:52]
Sean Flanagan
Yes, and on the show, he's arrived with Mrs. Astor, along with several other faces we know. So, you know, I have to ask, in reality, was Mrs. Astor there? Because she talks a big game in this episode about helping Emily Roebling. Did she introduce the President to the Roeblings?
- [10:09]
Tom Myers
No. In fact, according to the next day's New York Times, that introduction was done by Agnes Van Rhijn. Wait. Oh, no. Sorry. Just joking. Mayor Seth Lowe of Brooklyn. Alicia was the one who introduced the. The President to the Roeblings.
- [10:26]
Sean Flanagan
That makes more sense. But on our show, Bertha, who is also at the Roeblings, watches in horror as Mrs. Astor introduces the Duke to the President. And she realizes that Mrs. Astor has stolen the Duke from herself, who actually stole him from Mrs. Winterton.
- [10:43]
Tom Myers
This Duke gets around. I mean, where exactly do his loyalties lie? Right? But get ready, because we have another surprise moment when at the Roebling party, Norman Tate makes a speech and invites Mr. Russell to address the assembled party. But he ends up with Larry Russell instead of George Russell.
- [11:04]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah, Larry thanks Mr. Roebling for his vision. And then he drops his virtual mic by revealing that Mrs. Emily Roebling took over this project from her husband, enabling the construction of the bridge to continue in his absence. And Larry asks everyone to raise a toast to Emily Roebling for her enormous contribution to the Brooklyn Bridge.
- [11:25]
Tom Myers
Hear, hear. I would raise a glass to Emily Roebling.
- [11:28]
Sean Flanagan
Yes.
- [11:29]
Tom Myers
And to Washington Roebling and to his father, John Roebling. And there were a lot of glasses raised to them that night.
- [11:36]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah. So we've already spoken a bit about the real Emily Roebling. Of course, this is a TV show, and Larry Russell is fictional, so we're. This speech didn't happen.
- [11:47]
Tom Myers
No, there was no Larry Russell. But Emily Warne Roebling was mentioned in flowery speeches on the bridge. The first speech was actually given by Congressman Abram Hewitt. And in front of the President, he sang the praises of John Roebling, then Washington Roebling, and then Emily, whose name, quote, will be inseparably associated with all that is admirable in human nature and with all that is wonderful in the constructive world of art. So beat that, Larry.
- [12:19]
Sean Flanagan
I'm so glad that she was actually recognized at the time. That's lovely.
- [12:24]
Tom Myers
She was. And by the way, she also held the distinction of being in the very first carriage to ever cross the Brooklyn Bridge. Like, ever Washington Roebling had asked her to cross it to help understand how trotting horses affected the bridge. And turns out they're not a big deal.
- [12:43]
Sean Flanagan
Luckily, but a little bit Later, Larry approaches Mrs. Roebling, who predicts that they will print that I was a wonderful wife who served her husband to the best of abilities. They will ignore the true nature of my contribution. So how was she talked about in newspapers and, you know, in the press at the time?
- [13:02]
Tom Myers
Well, the day before the bridge opened on May 23, the New York Times published an amazing article titled Mrs. Roebling's how the Wife of the Brooklyn Bridge Engineer has Assisted her Husband, which went on to actually claim that she had functioned basically as its chief engineer.
- [13:22]
Sean Flanagan
Wow. So she was really the chief engineer.
- [13:25]
Tom Myers
Well, like most things in history, you know, defining her exact role is complicated. In the 2017 biography of Washington Roebling, chief engineer, author Erica Wagner lists, you know, this remarkable day to day list of responsibilities that Emily was charged with, but maintains that Washington, quote, while he was badly affected by his sickness, his mind was as sharp as ever and he was never not in control of the work. And yet Emily wrote later in 1898 to her son John, that quote, but for me, the Brooklyn Bridge would never have had the name of Roebling in any way connected with it. Your father was for years dead to all interest in that work.
- [14:11]
Luke Harlan
Hmm.
- [14:12]
Sean Flanagan
Well, yeah, that really does sound complicated.
- [14:15]
Tom Myers
Very complicated. However you want to define her role, I think that everybody agrees that Emily was absolutely vital to the bridge's completion, and she would get more recognition over the years. You can find her name on a plaque dedicated to the builders of the bridge on the South Tower that was placed in 1951. And in 2018, a part of Columbia Heights near the old Roebling home was renamed Emily Warren Roebling Way.
- [14:44]
Sean Flanagan
Oh, good. Okay, so let's switch back to New York now because Borden asks Mrs. Bruce if she would like to join him to watch the fireworks. As he says, the paper has noted, this will be the largest fireworks display.
- [15:01]
Tom Myers
Yeah, Indeed. I mean, crowds were gathering on both sides of the river, on balconies, on rooftops, packed into the streets and boats on the river anywhere they could see the bridge and even here atop mansions. And this is developing into a sweet little romance, isn't it?
- [15:17]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah. I mean, I have to say, I like them together. It's quite sweet. And we see here the crowd gathering, ready to watch the fireworks. I mean, this really must have been an unforgettable evening for both New Yorkers and for Brooklynites.
- [15:31]
Tom Myers
Unforgettable. The New York Times wrote that the first rockets shot up at 8pm from the center of the bridge and lit the sky for a full hour, ending at 9:00pm when, quote, a flight of 500 rockets illuminated the sky. The riverfront was one blaze of light.
- [15:51]
Sean Flanagan
That must have been beautiful. And now we'll have to go back to the drama with Mrs. Astor and Bertha, because Mrs. Astor's Duke stealing was in retaliation for something that happened earlier on. In this episode, Mrs. Astor pulled a lot of strings and pushed others aside to offer Mrs. Russell her own box at the Academy, which is what she always wanted. But, Tom, this feels like a bit of a last ditch attempt for Mrs. Astor to ruin the Metropolitan Opera's plans.
- [16:21]
Tom Myers
Yeah, there's something a little desperate right about how obvious Mrs. Astor's plan is here when. When George and Bertha are talking about it later, George tells her to not even consider the offer. I like how he called the Academy quote too small and unambitious. And, you know, I mean, let's face it, Bertha ain't unambitious.
- [16:43]
Sean Flanagan
Exactly. And Mrs. Astor is so sure that Bertha will say yes, that in front of all the women attending Aurora Fane's charity meeting, she announces that Bertha now has a box at the Academy, which confuses everyone. Until Bertha clears things up.
- [17:00]
Tom Myers
I'm sorry, but I've thought about it and I want to stay loyal to the Met.
- [17:04]
Sean Flanagan
You'll regret it. In fact, I feel sorry for you.
- [17:09]
Tom Myers
Making a fool of yourself in public like this. It was you who decided to do it in front of an audience.
- [17:14]
Sean Flanagan
Because I could not have imagined you to be so deluded as to turn me down. Good day, Mrs. Fane.
- [17:22]
Tom Myers
But we haven't started the meeting.
- [17:24]
Sean Flanagan
Well, I cannot stay. Can someone fetch my carriage?
- [17:27]
Tom Myers
Of course, Mrs. Astor. I'd hate to embarrass you.
- [17:31]
Sean Flanagan
That's the last thing I would want to do. Well, you have a funny way of showing it.
- [17:39]
Tom Myers
Okay, something surprised me here. When Bertha said, I hate to embarrass you, I thought that Mrs. Astor would shoot back with something sassy, but instead she says, well, you have a funny way of showing it. And I realized, wow, Mrs. Astor was actually a little bit vulnerable.
- [17:57]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah, she definitely looked hurt and, you know, a little embarrassed. And Bertha's way of saying no was rude. But I do think she's made the right choice in sticking with the Met.
- [18:10]
Tom Myers
Yeah. Even if this made everybody uncomfortable. Did you notice Mamie Fish staring inside her teacup? I mean, even she was speechless.
- [18:19]
Sean Flanagan
And that's tough, you know, to make Mamie Fish speechless. But I'm curious, you know, Tom, what would you have done if you were in this predicament? Would you risk being at a new opera house? Or would you, you know, switch to the Tried and True Academy?
- [18:36]
Tom Myers
I might have tried to get boxes at both of them and then hide it from Mrs. Astor. And what about you, Alicia? Where would you go?
- [18:45]
Sean Flanagan
I think I would stay at the Met and, you know, just incur the wrath of Mrs. Astor because the Met seemed more modern and kind of like a progressive choice.
- [18:57]
Tom Myers
Yeah, and definitely less stuffy.
- [18:59]
Sean Flanagan
That's right. Well, speaking of taking a stand, in the last episode, George stopped the National Guard from firing on his striking workers. And in this episode, we hear that he's agreed to several of their demands. Safeguards, medical care, a children's park, and a pay rise. And Clay is disgusted.
- [19:20]
Tom Myers
But George reassures him that it's all part of this master plan to divide the workers between skilled tradesmen and unskilled laborers. And in many cases, that meant dividing between the native born against the immigrants.
- [19:33]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah, he's just going to pit everyone against each other. And Bill Henderson is onto him. George shakes hands with Henderson. They have their photograph taken together. But Henderson's says the only reason he accepted this deal was because George stood up for the workers when they could have been fired upon. And, Tom, during all of this, George mentions the railway strikes of 77. What happened then?
- [19:58]
Tom Myers
Well, that strike was massive. It was the nation's first large scale industrial strike, and it lasted six weeks. It involved about 100,000 workers on strike across the country. And during the strike in July, militiamen opened fire on strikers around the country, killing more than 100 people. A federal judge then ordered national troops to protect the railroads. And the fight went all the way to the top, as President Hayes called in the US Military to end the strike.
- [20:32]
Sean Flanagan
Well, that sounds really like dangerous and.
- [20:35]
Tom Myers
Violent and very dramatic.
- [20:37]
Sean Flanagan
And later we see how angry the other industrial titans are that George has gone out on his own and made this deal. You Know they feel as if they've been forced into following suit.
- [20:49]
Tom Myers
Yeah, well, it's clear that George Russell plays by his own rules.
- [20:53]
Sean Flanagan
Yes, he does. And so now let's take a trip downstairs because Bannister has organised a meeting for Jack with Mr. Schubert, who is the secretary of the Watchmakers association of the City of New York. Or, you know, Tom. Why don't you give us the German name?
- [21:09]
Tom Myers
I think you mean Alicia. The Ermacherwein der Stadt New York. Yes, which. Which had been founded in New York in 1866 by German born watchmakers.
- [21:20]
Sean Flanagan
Yes, thanks for that, my Germans, a little rusty. But anyway, Mr. Schubert is impressed with Jack's work. And later Jack receives a letter inviting him to be a member of the association, which means, Tom, he can proceed with his patent.
- [21:36]
Tom Myers
I love it when Jack gets mail. It's always, you know, interesting. The mailman does this little, this one's for you, move, you know, and Jack rips into it like a kid opening up a college admission letter. And he's thrilled, you know, and he brings, let's face it, this episode, a jolt of good news.
- [21:54]
Sean Flanagan
He does. And there is another piece of good news, though, over the road at the Russells, where Watson gets a visitor. His daughter, Flora McNeil. So just to recap what we've seen this season with Watson and the McNeil's, after Mr. Robert McNeil learned that his wife's father is now a valet, he made Watson an offer that he would pay him a pension on the condition that Watson moves to California and never tries to see his daughter or grandchildren ever again.
- [22:25]
Tom Myers
Which, come on, let's face it, it's terrible, right? Or is it somehow generous? I mean, it sounds terrible to me. Although on the other hand, I mean, it's an offer to live rent free with a manservant in San Francisco. So, yeah, Watson is conflicted, but Church tells him to wait and hear from his daughter in person, you know, just to make sure that this is really what she wants.
- [22:51]
Sean Flanagan
And so finally, Flora arrives to speak to her father. And as it turns out, she doesn't want him to be sent away. She wants Watson to be in her life and her children's life. But she does request that he leave his job at the Russells to live as the retired banker, Mr. Collier, which.
- [23:08]
Tom Myers
Is, after all, his real name. But wow, what a whirlwind. And I found this scene between father and daughter to be quite poignant. I mean, they were tucked down there in Church's office. Especially when she says to him, we'll be all right. You and me, you know. And then Watson tells the others afterwards, it seems I'm to have a life after all.
- [23:31]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah, that was sweet. You saw a real sense of hope on Watson's face. And this brings to an end the whole mystery surrounding Watson. I didn't know what to think of him in season one, Remember when he was standing outside Flora's house just trying to catch a glimpse of her? But this dedication to her and the life he's made for himself away from her warmed me to him. I was so relieved that Flora wants her father in her life. And Borden and Mrs. Bruce are also very happy for him.
- [24:03]
Tom Myers
Yeah, it's been nice watching their friendship develop, all three of them. You know, I feel like Watson is going to really be missed.
- [24:12]
Sean Flanagan
Okay, well, let's go to the Scotts now, because they are continuing their push to stop the black schools in New York from being closed by the board of education. Mr. Fortune is there and reassures the crowd at their meeting that the Globe will publish articles praising the teachers, though they worry that won't be enough. As Sarah Garnett points out, to keep the schools open, they need to increase the numbers of their pupils. And specifically, they need to involve white students so that the board actually cares. Some parents are upset about the idea of desegregation, which, from what I understand, Tom, is true to what actually happened.
- [24:49]
Tom Myers
Yes, in real life, as we mentioned last week, New York State was Preparing in the 1880s to integrate these segregated black schools into the city school system. And this was controversial, even with black parents, you know, some of. Some of whom were wary of sending their children to integrated schools. How would their children be treated?
- [25:12]
Sean Flanagan
Right.
- [25:12]
Tom Myers
Maybe it was safer to keep them at a black school where they didn't run the risk of being talked down to or disrespected by their teachers or their classmates. So, yeah, some parents and teachers were asking if they could at least preserve some of these black schools, give them an option.
- [25:31]
Sean Flanagan
And in this episode, there's a realization that they may need to enlist the help of white teachers, which gives Peggy an idea, the idea of involving Marian. Marian speaks at a board meeting, lending her support to the cause. And Mr. Patrick Ryan, an unemployed teacher of IR, says he would like to join them. And then, Tom, amongst all of this, Dorothy remains concerned about Peggy's relationship with Mr. Fortune. And Peggy is also a little worried when they share a toast declaring down with the Board of Education. And the chemistry between them is bubbling.
- [26:06]
Tom Myers
Yeah, they both clearly admire each other, you know, professionally and personally, obviously. And when Peggy drops something on the ground and she's leaving, and then voila. You know, the two of them, wind, kissable position. Peggy actually squirms away. You know, I feel like in this scene, Peggy could hear her mother's voice, you know, And Peggy decides to get herself out of there.
- [26:32]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah, she's tempted, but she resists and. Okay, Tom, I've been putting off talking about the next storyline, but there's no way around it. We have to get to Reverend Luke Forte's story. Really? The end of Reverend Luke Forte's story. At a luncheon celebrating Marion and Dashiell's engagement, Luke collapses and Agnes insists that they set up a bed for him.
- [26:57]
Tom Myers
And Agnes calls for the family doctor, Dr. Lewis, who admits to Ada and Agnes that Luke is in really bad shape and shouldn't leave the Van Rhijn house. When Luke wakes up, he sees Agnes by his side reading the Bible. And here we have another touching moment right between Agnes and Luke, when Luke tells Agnes that he now thinks that he was selfish to marry Ada at his age. Agnes disagrees with him.
- [27:25]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah, she has really changed her tune since their wedding announcement and has seen how much happiness and love that Luke has brought to Ada's life. Although his life will be short, he has changed Ada forever. And he asks Agnes to look after Ada, to which she replies, well, of course I'll help her. She's my little sister. I mean, this was a lovely scene.
- [27:48]
Tom Myers
Yeah, Agnes is still the big sister. She even tells Luke to go back to sleep. You know, they somehow find a way to have a little chuckle together before Agnes pauses and kind of. You see her take the whole thing in. It's quite a moment later the church curate, Timothy, arrives to pray with the whole group and starts crying.
- [28:09]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah, he obviously cares deeply about Luke. And I was wondering, you know, what is a curate? I have no idea. What do they do?
- [28:17]
Tom Myers
Well, in the Episcopal Church, a curate is an assistant to the priest or the rector. Remember that it was Timothy who married Luke and Ada.
- [28:26]
Sean Flanagan
And so, while everyone else is out partying for the opening of the Brooklyn Bridge, Ada keeps vigil at his bedside and gives Luke permission to let go. My darling, it's all right if you.
- [28:47]
Tom Myers
Go now.
- [28:50]
Sean Flanagan
I'll be fine Being loved.
- [28:54]
Tom Myers
By you has made me strong.
- [28:57]
Luke Harlan
Thank you.
- [29:00]
Sean Flanagan
For what? For loving me back. How could I not?
- [29:11]
Tom Myers
It's so tender and sad.
- [29:15]
Sean Flanagan
So sad. Yeah. I still can't believe that we're losing Luke. We only just got him.
- [29:20]
Tom Myers
Yeah. It's not what anybody Expected, including us, you know, the audience. But it also underscores that these were volatile times at all levels of society. And as this incredibly sad situation is playing out, we're also watching the Brooklyn Bridge festivities. You know, the parties and the fireworks filling the sky and the exuberance and hope and life. All of it playing out at the same time that Ada is consumed with sadness, you know, keeping watch over her dying husband, by the way. In fact, there is a very memorable moment when a shot of the fireworks dissolves into Luke's bedroom. You know, we literally are going from life to death in one second.
- [30:03]
Sean Flanagan
It's poetic. And, you know, the moment that really kills me is when Ada wakes up to find that Luke has passed. And she leaves the room, collapsing into Agnes's arms.
- [30:13]
Tom Myers
No words are spoken.
- [30:15]
Sean Flanagan
Everyone is distressed, including Marian, who bumps into Larry arriving home after the Brooklyn Bridge party. He offers to take Marian on a walk. And, you know, whenever I see these guys together, I just think, I like them. They work.
- [30:30]
Tom Myers
Yeah. And here he is showing himself to be a really good friend. It also struck me that this scene starts with Dasha leaving, you know, and with Marian holding everything in. But when she sees Larry and starts talking to him, she opens up and she actually cries. You know, they have an honesty in their friendship. It's a real bond.
- [30:53]
Sean Flanagan
That's so true. And there was one member of the Van Rhijn household who missed both Luke's passing and the opening of the bridge. Oscar, you know, he bumps into George Russell on the street. He says he hopes things won't be awkward between them. Oscar seems to believe that he's shown up George Russell, that the company he invested in has outbid George's company. And perhaps, you know, he's hoping that George would now second guess turning Oscar down as a prospective husband for Gladys.
- [31:22]
Tom Myers
But poor Oscar. George kind of looks at him like he's crazy, right? He's never heard of Casterbridge Pacific Co. And says that if he hasn't heard of them, they mustn't be of any consequence. Well, Oscar immediately rushes over to Mr. Crowther's office, barges in past a lonely security guard, only to find the office empty. Like, spooky Twilight Zone empty.
- [31:47]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah. And, you know, very quickly, Oscar realizes that he's been had. And when he goes to talk to Maud Beaton, she's disappeared. Oscar has lost his entire family's fortune. And Tom, Maud Beaton was not who she said she was. She was a con artist.
- [32:04]
Tom Myers
Such a good twist, this. You know, this was a wild couple of minutes and quite a reveal. And. And it's based on fact.
- [32:12]
Sean Flanagan
What do you mean?
- [32:13]
Tom Myers
Well, Maude was based on a few famous female con artists of the day, most notably on Cassie Chadwick, who really conned a list of bankers into giving her millions of dollars because she very effectively played the part of a glamour society woman who had a secret. She was, she whispered, the illegitimate daughter of Andrew Carnegie.
- [32:39]
Sean Flanagan
Oh, so just like the rumors that, you know, Maud was Jay Gould's daughter.
- [32:43]
Tom Myers
Exactly. Yeah. I just finished a new biography of Cassie that came out last year called Greed in the Gilded Age by William Elliot Hazelgrove. And the author really underscores how relatively easy it was for people to construct brand new identities for themselves at this time.
- [33:02]
Sean Flanagan
No social media.
- [33:04]
Tom Myers
It had its benefits. Yes. People were untrackable. And like Maude, Cassie was brilliant and she had this alluring quality that seems to have made men, in this case, bankers, believe her and write her checks. You know, just believing that Carnegie's fortune was always right behind her, which of course it wasn't.
- [33:26]
Sean Flanagan
Very similar to Kieran, you know. Poor Oscar is devastated. He visits John Adams and he tells John that he'll report this to the police, but that it's unlikely he'll be able to prove that a crime has been committed. So do you think there would have been any type of legal action that Oscar could have taken to get his money back?
- [33:46]
Tom Myers
Well, Maude was anything like Cassie, that money had probably been spent.
- [33:51]
Sean Flanagan
Right. And the Van Ryjn's have really suffered. This is not long after Luke has passed away and Oscar arrives back home to deliver the news to Agnes. He tells her that he invested their money in a company that doesn't exist and that Maud Beaton also doesn't exist. Agnes stares at him in disbelief.
- [34:12]
Tom Myers
Go and get our money back. I can't. There's no recourse. The money is gone and so is she.
- [34:20]
Luke Harlan
How much did you lose?
- [34:24]
Tom Myers
Nearly all of it. You've just got a feel for Oscar here. He has been duped and now he has to sit there in front of Agnes and the rest of them. I mean, he is. He's humiliated.
- [34:40]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah. I mean, Oscar made a poor decision, but he liked Maud. And so essentially he lost all of his money and his second chance at marriage in one fell swoop.
- [34:51]
Alicia Malone
It's brutal.
- [34:52]
Sean Flanagan
And I have to say, I really liked the music in this scene because it creeps up and it feels haunting underneath Oscar's reveal. It's just like building and building to the end of the episode.
- [35:04]
Tom Myers
And what an episode.
- [35:06]
Sean Flanagan
I mean, that was a big, big episode. I have so many questions for our special guests.
- [35:13]
Tom Myers
Oh, me too. So join us here on the official Gilded Age podcast as well. We chat to co producer Luke Harlan and the head of hair, Sean Flanagan. That's coming up right after this quick break. Hey, business owners, we know you know the importance of maximizing every dollar. With the Delta sky miles reserve business American Express card, you can make your.
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Sean Flanagan
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Sean Flanagan
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Sean Flanagan
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Tom Myers
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Sean Flanagan
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Tom Myers
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- [36:19]
Sean Flanagan
Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.
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Tom Myers
And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw.
- [36:24]
Sean Flanagan
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Tom Myers
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Sean Flanagan
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Tom Myers
1-800-Contacts.
- [36:35]
Luke Harlan
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.
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Tom Myers
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- [37:11]
Luke Harlan
My membership, sir?
- [37:12]
Tom Myers
Of the Ermacher, Vereenderstadt, New York. You clearly know more about clocks than.
- [37:17]
Luke Harlan
Many of our members.
- [37:20]
Sean Flanagan
Hooray, Jack. Let's give that moment some tiny applause. Welcome back to the official Gilded Age podcast. I'm Alicia Malone with Tom Meyers. And Tom, Jack is now a member of the Ermacht. The Ermacher. I don't know. How do you say it? The clock. The clockmakers.
- [37:37]
Tom Myers
You mean the ermacherfreinderstadt, New York. Alicia, Is that what you're trying to say?
- [37:42]
Sean Flanagan
Yes. Very well done. Well, our guests will be able to fill us in on the kind of research that went into Jack's storyline, plus the Brooklyn Bridge scenes and all of the incredible hair we see on the women of the show. They are Luke Harlan and Sean Flanagan. Luke is a director and producer for Film, television and theatre. And as the co producer of the Gilded Age, he's responsible for overseeing all of the storylines and the team of historical researchers. And Sean is the head of the hair department on the Gilded Age, a very big job. He's been working in the hair department of films and television shows for over 20 years. You may have seen his work on Mad Men, Rock of Ages, and the Irishman, among others.
- [38:25]
Tom Myers
Lou Carlin and Sean Flanagan, thank you so much for joining us today.
- [38:29]
Alicia Malone
Oh, you're welcome.
- [38:30]
Luke Harlan
Thank you for having us.
- [38:32]
Alicia Malone
I get to do this with Luke. I'm so excited.
- [38:34]
Sean Flanagan
Me too. And Luke, we just want to thank you for being a friend to this show. I know you and Tom have been in touch over the past two seasons and. And you've really helped us with a few of the historical details. So I'm interested to learn from you about your job as the co producer, how you oversee and keep track of all the storylines. I mean, what is that like on a show like this that has so many stories?
- [39:00]
Luke Harlan
Yes, there are. I can't even count how many stories there are. How many storylines, how many characters, how many characters intersect and how many different stories come and go. It's. It is kind of mind boggling and baffling. The kind of theme of my job is to make sure that the story at every single moment is being told so that there is the journey from beginning to end for not just the entire story, not just the arc of the season or the arc of the show itself, but also each character storyline as well. So that when we're in pre production and the writers are working and we're kind of creating story, we make big charts and, and all sorts of graphs and things that really kind of show you or show us kind of, oh, this is where we need to be at this point or at the end or this is where this is going. And then when we're actually shooting, it's about every single take, every shot to make sure that what's happening in that moment is actually telling that greater story. And then in post production, it's about making sure that that full arc of the thing is being told all the time. It's especially true in season two when there's so many storylines like Oscar and Maude, and it's like we have to be so careful about what information is given at what time so that no one gets ahead of it.
- [40:14]
Sean Flanagan
There's also a lot of history in these stories too. So how do you supervise all of the historical research?
- [40:22]
Luke Harlan
Well, we have an amazing team of expert historians. We, as we're working with Julian and Sonia on kind of storylines and what we're doing, what we want to talk about, different events that are happening during the year that we're working on this, then. Then I can go to our researchers and say, hey, can we get some more information about, say, the Brooklyn Bridge? And then those researchers who are amazing, come back with loads of information. First source material, stuff. Stuff that's, like, amazing information for us to have and for. Especially for Julian to look at. And so it's from that material that our researchers are able to gather for us that we can figure out where the entertainment is, you know, the drama. The drama, exactly what inside of this real story of these real people, what can we take out that actually is the meat of that drama? Right.
- [41:11]
Tom Myers
Sean, I'd like to bring you in here. You are the head of hair for the show. So for people who are not familiar with that role, could you tell us more about your role on the Gilded Age?
- [41:23]
Alicia Malone
This job was kind of a gift. And it's like my role basically is to facilitate the design process that Michael, our director, wants, Julian wants. And as well as the producers in the stories, I basically oversee the design process. I literally will pull reference photos. I work with Kasia and Patrick, our amazing costume department, who usually are ahead of the game with me as far as design process. So I take my lead a lot from where the costumes are going, which entail they are working a lot more with Michael and the story because they're having to produce the look prior to us coming in. So with my team, I generally will give them a guideline of what the design process or what I see the show looking like. And I let my team, like Christine, Tim, Jonathan, my main team. If I didn't have those people, I wouldn't have the show. This job, we all were very cohesive and became a very tight unit. And I think that's what the magic of the show was for us. Everyone got to put their artistry on it, but we kept it within a frameline. So everyone kind of understood the vision, and we allowed everyone to do their craft. And once we understood each other's language, they let us run.
- [42:38]
Tom Myers
Well, it's interesting because Luke was just talking about doing all this historical research. So you and your team are also doing all of this research and you're pulling all these ideas together. And then are you, like, sketching something and presenting the director with different ideas of what the characters could look like?
- [42:56]
Alicia Malone
Not generally. You know, there's historical references that will pop up. So we'll actually have images sometimes of these characters, which I would always run into Luke's office sometimes, and he'll pull out a book and he'll be like, oh, yeah, here's this storyline. Here's this. So this is where this character comes from. But I went to a lot of the Harper's Bazaar magazines and all the old magazines from the time, and there were these beautiful pencil sketches of, like, the costumes and the hair, and they're all pencil sketches. So all those magazines had such a beautiful sculpture and style to them. So they may not be completely accurate to what people think the period is, but we actually have the references from the costume sketches and fashion images. And we went that direction, which made it a lot more glamorous, which was really, really fun for our crew, and.
- [43:38]
Sean Flanagan
So much fun for all of us to watch. I mean, there's so many impressive, intricate hairstyles for the women of the gilded Age. And what about wigs? How do you decide who gets a wig?
- [43:51]
Alicia Malone
Well, the women all get wigs, mostly because I need the length. Like in episode seven with Mrs. Roebling, her hairstyle is her hair. But there's also a ton of pieces that I've colored to match her own hair. So it's her hair incorporated with a lot of pieces to give me the volume and length.
- [44:07]
Tom Myers
Interesting.
- [44:07]
Alicia Malone
So all the women need to have some sort of length or pieces put on, because a lot of women in this period had hair switches or braids or extra hair that they would build into their hairstyle. So that's where the size and the volume and the shape comes from.
- [44:21]
Luke Harlan
We're all storytellers, you know, every single person on this show. And so I love watching Sean work because there's ways that hair tells the story. Like the way that women show their hair in public says something about themselves and says something about what they're trying to make society feel about them.
- [44:39]
Alicia Malone
What? Christine, like, my assistant, she's my right hand. I couldn't do this job without her. What she does with Carrie's hair, I just love. I mean, it's like originally we've said, let's play with Carrie's hair being a little more sophisticated, not so overly curled in style, so she's got more of a wave to it. We kept Carrie much more smooth and sophisticated feeling compared to the Van Rhijns because they're much more original to the period. So we've got more texture and curl. So it just kind of separated that. So there's those little tweaks that we play with in the design process that just naturally develops because we get to know the characters, you get to know the story.
- [45:15]
Tom Myers
You mentioned Carrie, Coon, Bertha, and I'm thinking of the scene in this episode, in episode seven, where Bertha and George are quite intimate. It's late at night, she's in her nightgown. They're kissing and cuddling. She's talking about striking workers in Pittsburgh, but it's intimate.
- [45:32]
Luke Harlan
Tom. That's a really unique example because that scene actually wasn't originally supposed to be in the bedroom at night. And it was due to just logistical scheduling issues and likely because of COVID And so if I remember correctly, that scene was actually supposed to be kind of an evening scene in the drawing room. But because we couldn't have that set that day, we moved it to night in her bedroom. And actually, now that I watch it, I'm like, that's what that scene should always like. That is that scene now. But it speaks to the flexibility and collaboration on set that, like, in last minute we were able to say, this has to move here. Can we all gather forces and figure out how to make it work? And not just make it work. But now you can see how that challenge, that problem in quotations, actually created something that I think works so much better and really lets us in to Bertha's vulnerability. Like, we don't always get to see Bertha being vulnerable. And it's really wonderful when we are able to.
- [46:29]
Tom Myers
Well, Luke, in this episode, number seven, obviously there's so much history in it, but I just want to talk about the big moment that this has all been leading up to. The opening celebration of the Brooklyn Bridge. And it's a scene that is interesting because it seems like it touches nearly all of the other characters and storylines at that moment. Can you tell us what went into crafting that storyline and why it's important to you?
- [46:54]
Luke Harlan
Yeah. And you talk about this moment when kind of all the storylines converge. And that's something that we try to look out for whenever we can. Maybe you remember in season one, there was the lighting ceremony for Thomas Edison. That was when so many storylines converged. And it's also, logistically, it's just a moment when we can actually have a lot of characters together. It didn't exactly work in the same way for the Brooklyn Bridge because it's fractured. And so that becomes really important storytelling wise, because not only does it link all our characters up, but it also. It grounds us in a certain moment in time and not a fictional moment. This was a Real event. And the opening of the Brooklyn Bridge. It was the biggest celebration New York had ever seen. Literally there were, I mean, hundreds of thousands of people that were arriving by boat, by train, by everything into the city. And there was so jam packed that day that you could not move around the. The accounts of the river on that day were that there were so many boats that no one could move. And it was just. This was the moment of New York City. And so it felt so right to us that this was going to be kind of a moment that of course, everything has to stop. Because everybody in the world, it seems, was watching the bridge that day. And so when we talk about kind of graphing everything out and getting all these storylines to converge in this moment, it does. You have to kind of. Right. If we're at the end of episode seven and we want everyone to be there at the same time, then that means, okay, we have to, like, make sure that Oscar can't get a cab on that day and that works into his storyline. We have to make sure that Peggy, you know, Peggy's going to Brooklyn because there's a rooftop party. But it's not just. We can't just say we need to have a rooftop party. It's like, why. It's not just because of the bridge, but also because Peggy needs to reconnect with her parents. And then same thing with downstairs. You know, this is the moment when Borden is. We're trying to, like, develop this relationship a little bit more. And so we move that up to the roof and all of these things. It's fun, right? Because there's individual story reasons to get everybody to converge on a certain moment. And then there's the greater story reason of that. This is a New York City moment.
- [49:09]
Tom Myers
Well. And the only characters who are missing out, right, are Ada and Reverend Forte.
- [49:14]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah.
- [49:15]
Luke Harlan
Julian wanted to have these things happen simultaneously. And it's. It actually, when I'm watching the episode, I kind of. I'm moved so deeply at Luke's death because it's coinciding exactly with this huge celebration. That juxtaposition actually makes it hurt more.
- [49:33]
Alicia Malone
That scene with Agnes and Ada, when she comes out of the. It just. It gives me the chills still because it's like watching them live, doing it. There were crew people crying. Just because you become so attached to the characters and you forget the cast is so brilliant because they can suck you right into the character. And that's what I find so amazing about watching some of these actors.
- [49:54]
Tom Myers
And there are no words.
- [49:56]
Sean Flanagan
She doesn't even say anything.
- [49:57]
Alicia Malone
No, nothing. Yeah, Because Agnes is such a cold woman, but you really. She isn't. There's a softness to Agnes, which I just find beautiful.
- [50:05]
Sean Flanagan
I'm interested to hear about creating the look of Mrs. Astor and her hair. You know what went into that? Because I believe that she had a wig that was quite famous. I don't know if it was at this time.
- [50:17]
Alicia Malone
She was wig, but I mean, also colored hair. She colored her hair very dark. We've got photos of Ms. Aster, so we do know that that's accurate. Donna is such fun because she's very particular what she likes. She's got an idea what she likes. And so it kind of take some of the pressure off of us trying to make the actor happy because we know what she wants. And it's accurate because it looks so great on her with the curls and the tight front. And that's something we don't change on her, and it just elevates her level to a little bit more polish and class. We just kept her very, very clean because we're doing a drama, an entertainment piece. We want to make it look beautiful. And so we just cleaned everything up. We took the style and just polished it all.
- [50:55]
Sean Flanagan
And for each of the characters, do you have a series of wigs already set in hairstyles, or do you recreate new every time?
- [51:04]
Alicia Malone
The wigs are always set the night before. There's a whole process of cleaning the lace and getting it all set. But because the styles are so tight to the side of the head, I personally found it very difficult to get that really tight, clean line without actually dressing the hair on the actress every day. So we would get the wig prepped, we'd get the actor's hair wrapped up tight under a wig cap. I would send them off to makeup. Makeup would do their magic. They'd come back to me, the wig would go on, and I would probably spend another 20 to 30 minutes with each character redressing the hair. So we put the hair up every single day.
- [51:37]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah. There was a great interview with Morgan Spector, who said during the first season, he was saying, like, I usually hate my face. But Sean Flanagan and Nikki Lederman, the makeup department head, who you mentioned, have created a look for this guy that makes me feel at home. So what is it like for you to see these actors transform into their characters once they have everything set? The costumes, the hair, and the makeup?
- [52:02]
Alicia Malone
The first couple times you put a wig on an actor, and especially this period, they're so dressed up, you look at them in their street clothes and think, oh, what have I done? And then they get into the costume, and then they get on the set, and then you're like, wow, it works. And that's what I think has been really fun about this job.
- [52:21]
Tom Myers
Like.
- [52:21]
Alicia Malone
Like Christine Baranski, God love her, she's a character. She'll come in, she'll get her hair prepped. She is a dream to work with. She sits down, she doesn't bother. She looks up and she's like, wow, this is fun, you know? And then she'll pop on her, like, her aviator glasses, and she'll walk out in her cool little clothes, and you're like, oh, my gosh. The same thing with Louisa. She decided to color her hair black, so almost dark, dark brown. And of course, I'm like, okay, you're a blonde. I got a wig. How am I going to hide this? But when you start doing it and then it's just hysterical to watch them in period in contemporary, and you're like, okay, this is gonna be fun. But once they get into their costumes and on set, it all just magically just becomes it. I mean, it's just fun to watch.
- [53:01]
Tom Myers
Another story that we've been following for weeks now is this developing romance between Oscar Van Rhijn and Maude Beaton, which you mentioned before. And in this episode, you know, from the audience's perspective, we almost feel as if we'd have. We've had the rug pulled from under our feet. Right. We have been had by Maude. Can you tell us about constructing that storyline and how you sort of baited us along over many, many episodes here?
- [53:33]
Luke Harlan
A team effort. I mean, it's even just you saying right now that it feels like you had the rug pulled out and that you'd been had makes me so happy, because so much work. Right. From so many people goes into making sure that that moment will land. Because what'll happen, hopefully, is the audience gets to this spot, this happens, we feel this way, and then maybe we go back and watch again all the interactions with Maude Beaton. And the fun of that will be to see. Oh, right, Maude never did come out of that house.
- [54:07]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah. She always waits out the front.
- [54:09]
Luke Harlan
Yeah. Or like, you know, the little hints about, where's Maude right now? Oh, she's visiting a sick aunt in Newport or something like this. Every single moment and every single line and every single look, really, from the actor. Nicole, too, is calculated to make sure that the story being told up until this moment is that Oscar is gonna take this woman for a ride. And that's gonna be. That's gonna be what it is. It's gonna be Oscar being Oscar. And so there was a lot of moments where like, David Crockett and Michael Engler and I and Julian and others would sit, we kind of be together and try to literally go through every single one of these moments and think, wait, are we giving anything away here? Should we actually move these scenes into different spots? Or should this actually go to episode four so that when we get to this moment in episode seven, no one in the audience, hopefully right. Is ahead that no one suspects that there's not something that's gonna get in the way of this moment of the rug being pulled out. Because that's where the joy of this storyline is.
- [55:17]
Tom Myers
We've just been sort of led along for several episodes that she. They say that she's Jay Gould's illegitimate daughter. It's like we're following that. And then you do something completely different with her.
- [55:29]
Luke Harlan
There's quite a few different examples of con artists that we looked at, but one particularly was a woman who went by Cassie Chadwick. And the whole idea of posing as the illegitimate daughter of a rich robber baron was her thing of Andrew Carnegie.
- [55:48]
Tom Myers
Yeah. Alicia and I were just talking about Cassie and the amazing parallels here. Said, was Cassie then a direct inspiration for Maud?
- [55:57]
Luke Harlan
Yeah, absolutely. Some people call it the greatest bank heist in all of history. Our day and age, it would be hundreds of millions of dollars that she got. And so it's fun to bring in this person into our story. Even if we don't follow that story along and know what happened, we'll never know what happens to Maude Beaton. Does she come back? But to have that character pop into our story and pop out, and then the audience, if they want to, can go look into this woman or think more about what that is. But it's fun to kind of have these real people or these people based on real people infuse the story a bit.
- [56:33]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah, that's true. And it's so fun to learn about the real history behind these characters. I'm also enjoying Jack's storyline this season. He's becoming an inventor. And I know that, Luke, you do a lot of research yourself. So what went into making that storyline believable?
- [56:51]
Luke Harlan
Yeah, I really took this one on because I am a nerd. Self proclaimed. And, you know, Julian originally had the idea of a rags to riches story for Jack and that really. We all got really excited about that. And then the research team Came back with a lot of ideas of or just different historical examples of rags to riches. And there was all sorts of things, bicycles and any other kind of invention. But the one that Julian and all of us really found exciting was this clock idea that Jack could actually invent something. And so I got connected with the Horological Society of New York, which Julian actually put into the script the Irmacher Reinderstadt, and so asked some of the experts there, like, what's actually a historical example of something that someone like Jack could have created. So we found an example in history of this escape. It was something that someone like Jack, if Jack, say, was exceptionally brilliant at this without even knowing it. Right. And that's what the story becomes, is that Jack has this innate ability that he didn't know, that no one knew about. And that's what's so beautiful about it, is that he kind of on accident comes up with this. But in order for us to really kind of figure out what that actually meant, the actor Ben Ahlers and I got to actually go to a clock making class at the Horological Society. We sat there together, the two of us, and actually put a clock together.
- [58:23]
Sean Flanagan
Wow.
- [58:23]
Luke Harlan
So that we could understand what actually an escape wheel is. It's really not easy to understand unless you're sitting there putting one together and really trying to understand what makes a clock tick.
- [58:34]
Sean Flanagan
Literally.
- [58:34]
Luke Harlan
Yeah, literally. And so then when we're on set and we're doing that scene, we're not guessing at anything. This is the actual thing. I'd geek out about it.
- [58:44]
Sean Flanagan
Yeah, I would, too. And, you know, earlier, Tom and I were talking about the sad death of Luke Forte, which I definitely did not want to happen. Luke, how did you work with the producers and the writers to introduce his illness without giving anything away?
- [59:00]
Luke Harlan
Right. It's another one of those things you have to be careful about. Because I remember again, sitting down with everyone and kind of mapping this out. I think part of it was making sure that in every episode it's at least hinted to once. And that as you go, there's not only more of it, but it gets more intense. So the first episode, it might be very mild lower back pain. Then it's, you know, oh, hard to sit down. And then it's, oh, when I carried Ada over the threshold, that really hurt. Oh, you should go see a doctor about. No, no, no, it's nothing. And then the next episode, it's, okay, I saw a doctor, he said it was nothing. So that we keep that story moving all the time. And we keep that concern moving all the time, but we also are showing the character's perspective on it. Luke thinks it's not a big deal, but Ada's always pushing a little harder. Cause Ada might have a sense that there's something more there.
- [59:53]
Tom Myers
Okay, well, we have to talk about all the opera drama. Okay. This whole season is building to a battle between Bertha and Mrs. Astor over these two opera houses. No spoilers, please, but can you just talk about your research into the opera wars? What drew you to this particular conflict?
- [60:12]
Luke Harlan
That's all Julian, when it comes to this, wanting to set up the opera war as a big thing for season two. And you might remember from season one, I think it's in episode six, maybe, when it's just Agnes and Ada and others sitting around and someone just says, oh, what about the opera war? And everyone throws it off and kind of says, oh, that's not going to be a big deal. That was Julian set up in season one for a season two. And so it's always been on his mind. And so when we started all doing research and gathering research for season two, what the research team and I found that was really exciting when we found it was that these two opera houses opened on the same night. And that just felt like one of those things you find in research that's like.
- [61:00]
Tom Myers
It's a gift.
- [61:01]
Luke Harlan
What? Are you serious? That's really too good to be true. Too good to be true. And then, so then I take that information, I give it to you, and it's like, here, Julian, did you know this? And he's like, oh, my goodness. And so of course, that. It just seems like, of course that becomes the thing that becomes the way that you set these two sides up against each other is it's not just about. It's not just about an opera house if it's going to succeed or not. It becomes about what side are you going to be on. And that's good drama and that's good storytelling.
- [61:35]
Sean Flanagan
Well, this has been really fascinating. So Lou Carlin and Sean Flanagan, thank you both for your time.
- [61:41]
Luke Harlan
Thank you.
- [61:41]
Alicia Malone
Thank you.
- [61:46]
Sean Flanagan
Tom. That was so interesting. Can you imagine Luke Harlan and Ben Ahlers attending a clock making class? How cool.
- [61:55]
Tom Myers
They really got deeply into their research, you know? And I'm just thinking of all of those plot lines that Luke and his colleagues were staying on top of and how to make them all converge on this one night that we saw in the show. Not to mention all the hair.
- [62:08]
Sean Flanagan
All the hair. I mean, Shaun talking about how he first saw the wigs with the cars while they're wearing their modern clothes and how he was worried that it wouldn't actually work. But of course, once you get them in the costume and the makeup and on the sets, it's beautiful.
- [62:22]
Tom Myers
Absolutely. As is everything that you can see in the new episodes of the HBO original series the Gilded Age Sunday on Max. And then be sure you tune into our podcast, also available on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.
- [62:38]
Sean Flanagan
Bye everyone.
- [62:48]
Tom Myers
This has been the official Gilded Age Podcast, written, hosted and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers. Our supervising producer is Andrew Pemberton Fowler.
- [62:59]
Sean Flanagan
Our editor is Trey Boody. With special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt and Siobhan Slater from HBO and Hannah Petterson and Amy Machado from Pod People.
- [63:09]
Tom Myers
Listen to the official Gilded Age Podcast after each episode airs on Max or wherever you find podcasts.
- [63:16]
Sean Flanagan
Want even more extra content and behind the scenes moments from the Gilded Age? Follow us on Facebook and Instagram Yilded Age HBO to join the conversation.
- [63:27]
Tom Myers
Today, the official Gilded Age Podcast is a production of HBO in partnership with POD People.
- [63:33]
Alicia Malone
Pod People.