← The Official Gilded Age Podcast
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- [00:02]
Alicia Malone
On WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.
- [00:30]
Tom Myers
Have you ever spotted McDonald's hot crispy fries right as they're being scooped into.
- [00:36]
Gareth Neame
The carton and time just stands still? Bada ba ba ba.
- [00:51]
Tom Myers
So.
- [00:54]
Alicia Malone
This is what defeat feels like.
- [00:56]
Gareth Neame
Lena, don't say that the Metropolitan is a novelty. They're simply curious. Ladies, I know it's hard, but it's.
- [01:04]
Alicia Malone
Time to face the truth.
- [01:06]
Gareth Neame
To quote Ecclesiastes, for everything in life, there is a season. And it seems the season of the Academy of Music is drawing to a close.
- [01:19]
Alicia Malone
Welcome back to the official Gilded Age Podcast for one final time this season, I'm Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies, joined by my my co host Tom Myers from the Bowery Boys Podcast. And Tom, I'm really gonna miss our weekly chats, you know, where I grill you about labor strikes and what really happened during the opera war.
- [01:39]
Gareth Neame
Don't worry, Alicia. Labor strikes aren't going anywhere. And we will be talking extensively about that opera war in today's episode. Hello, everyone. Yes, this is the season two finale of the official Gilded Age Podcast and it's gonna be a biggie. Now, last week we joined President Arthur at the opening of the Brooklyn br, and this week we'll be duking it out in the opera wars and separating fact from fiction around the opening of the Metropolitan Opera and the downfall of the Academy of Music.
- [02:12]
Alicia Malone
Plus, we'll be asking all of our burning questions about the entire second season of the Gilded Age to the executive producer, Gareth Neame.
- [02:21]
Tom Myers
Unfortunately, our Marian, she learns through this, as she learned in the first season, that there is a difference between pragmatic relationships and true love. And she knows that she doesn't love love him. And crucially, she knows that he doesn't love her. He loves his late wife. And she is, I think, by the end of the second season, a wiser, more sophisticated, more romantically mature woman than a few episodes earlier.
- [02:44]
Gareth Neame
This is season two, episode eight in Terms of Winning and Losing, written by Julian Fellowes and directed by Michael Engler.
- [03:02]
Alicia Malone
And we begin with high drama at the Russells. Bertha opens her mail and reads that Mrs. Astor has indeed stolen her duke and plans to Bring him to the opening of the Academy of Music, which would be a huge coup for Mrs. Astor and that opera house.
- [03:18]
Gareth Neame
Huge coup. Bertha lets out a she's a thief and runs down the hall to tell George she's stolen my Duke. Now, Alicia, where have we heard that line before?
- [03:29]
Alicia Malone
Oh, that would be one Mrs. Winterton, who Bertha had stolen him from in the first place. Although, you know, Tom, no one can top Mrs. Winterton on the delivery of my Duke, that witch.
- [03:42]
Gareth Neame
While running up a staircase. That's true. I'm starting to think that this Duke enjoys all of these divas fighting over him. And to make matters worse, Gilbert, the Met director, a few moments later, can hardly contain his glee, telling Bertha that he's leaked out the name of their special guest for opening night and the tickets have gone in a flash.
- [04:05]
Alicia Malone
That means the pressure is really on Bertha to deliver the Duke, because the people will go wherever they think the.
- [04:12]
Gareth Neame
Duke is going, which I love the thought of. New York opera goers all just, you know, glued to the latest news about which opera house the Duke will be attending. And before you ask, no, this did not happen on opening night in 1883. This was created for the show. Will he be at the Academy or the Met?
- [04:32]
Alicia Malone
The Met, as Agnes says. Is that what we have to call the Metropolitan? Which reminds me, Tom, I did want to begin all of this by asking you about the Met, because, you know, we've talked about how it was organized and funded, but where was it back in 1883? Because it wasn't where it currently stands, which is, you know, the place now known as Lincoln.
- [04:56]
Gareth Neame
No, the original Met was constructed between 39th and 40th on the western side of Broadway, which was just a little bit north of the theater scene, which at the time was around Madison Square and Herald Square. And the Met's exterior was designed in the Italian Renaissance style and just, you know, covered in terracotta and figurines and yellow brick, which, you know, along with its mammoth size, gave the Met the not so nice nickname, the, quote, yellow Brick Brewery.
- [05:29]
Alicia Malone
That's not flattering at all. And, you know, we've heard about the auditorium with its. It's got the three levels of boxes, right?
- [05:39]
Gareth Neame
Yeah. The Met claim that in terms of surface area, this audience room was larger than any other opera house in the world. And in fact, as we mentioned before, it had really been designed to show off the audience. Right. Especially those in the three tiers of boxes.
- [05:55]
Alicia Malone
Yeah. Cause really, they were part of the performance.
- [05:59]
Gareth Neame
They were. Yeah. And the auditorium took up so much of the block, you know, that this left very little room for backstage or for the wings. And, you know, those are pretty important for operas, especially operas with lots of sets. So, pretty much from the beginning, the Met started leaving scenery in the streets around the Opera house, you know, sometimes for hours, even in the rain and snow. There was also very little rehearsal space. The chorus sometimes had to rehearse downstairs in Sherry's, which was the restaurant located inside the Opera house.
- [06:32]
Alicia Malone
Oh, boy. Is all of that why it had.
- [06:35]
Gareth Neame
To move to a new space eventually? Yes, it was beautiful, but outdated. And Even after a 1906 renovation, you know, it just didn't work. So they looked for a new home for decades. And finally, in the 1950s, the Met joined forces with the New York Philharmonic and the New York City Opera and the New York City Ballet in the creation of Lincoln center, located in the West 60s between Columbus and Amsterdam Avenues. And ground was broken in 1959, and the Met had its final performance in the old opera House in 1966, and then moved uptown to Lincoln center that fall.
- [07:13]
Alicia Malone
And what happened to the old opera house, you know, the opera house we see in the show?
- [07:18]
Gareth Neame
Well, sadly, the year after the Met moved Uptown in 1967, the old building was demolished, and it was replaced by the huge office tower that still stands there today.
- [07:28]
Alicia Malone
Well, back in this episode, Bertha discovers exactly who convinced the Duke to go to the Academy. Ward McAllister. Not a huge shock, because as he reminds Bertha, he is always going to be loyal to Mrs. Astor. Bertha asks how much the Duke costs to buy, and Tom ward replies that Mrs. Astor is giving him more than money, that she will open New York to the Duke and, you know, the whole of America.
- [07:54]
Gareth Neame
Yeah, I was struck by how Ward kind of slapped back at Bertha in this scene. It just kind of put her in her place, you know, with a little I've been at this game rather longer than you line, you know, and then and basically tells her, this is what you'll do. You will take a box at the Academy. Something about it was almost menacing, you know, or almost like mansplaining.
- [08:18]
Alicia Malone
100% mansplaining. Or perhaps ward splaining.
- [08:22]
Gareth Neame
Ward splaining, yes.
- [08:25]
Alicia Malone
And then George refuses to give more money to the Met. So, you know, that leaves Bertha thinking about what she can offer the Duke beyond money. More on that in a minute. Meanwhile, Mamie Fish says that the newspapers are divided on whether the Duke will attend the Met or the Academy. And, Tom, first things first. So we know that this particular Duke was fictional, right?
- [08:49]
Gareth Neame
Yes, but this is tapping into a very real story. Royalty from the old world did come to America often looking for a bride with a fortune to help them pay for their old estates back home. And these brides, by the way, were sometimes derisively referred to as dollar princesses. And more about that in a minute.
- [09:12]
Alicia Malone
Yep. We also know that both opera houses did really open on the same night. So was there speculation in the press about which house would win?
- [09:21]
Gareth Neame
Well, there was chatter about this in the society pages. For example, the Tribune published an article the day before the opening that states, quote, the burden of society's talk during last week related to the opera season. Where to go is this year quite as troublesome a question as what to wear. So, yeah, there you have it. It was real. What a burden. Which opera house to attend.
- [09:47]
Alicia Malone
Where will I wear my diamonds?
- [09:49]
Gareth Neame
Too many choices. But then the article continues to describe the rivalry as being chiefly between the managers of these opera houses. And yet it says between the box holders, things are, quote, quite friendly. Which isn't really what we see here.
- [10:06]
Alicia Malone
Definitely not.
- [10:07]
Gareth Neame
And it also makes an interesting point. Quote, the majority of the academy people stayed behind, though a few of the pillars in the old house have hedged, so to speak, by leasing boxes in both houses, enabling them, at a considerable cost to go to whichever place has the greater musical or social attraction.
- [10:28]
Alicia Malone
Just like we see in the show. You know, like the Fanes and Mamie Fish. And there's some other academy families who also have a box at the Met.
- [10:37]
Gareth Neame
Yeah, exactly.
- [10:38]
Alicia Malone
Well, you know, Gladys wants her suitor, Billy Carlton, to visit the Russells box at the Met during the opening night, but Bertha says no. Gladys says she prefers Billy to Bertha's duke. But Bertha, she has other plans.
- [10:52]
Gareth Neame
But I also like how we see here Gladys and Bertha, you know, carefully arranging their social visits for the intermissions. Right, right. All of this in advance. After all the intermissions is when all the action took place. It's. It's very age of innocence. The women, of course, would have to stay put in their boxes and they would receive gentlemen callers. And Bertha is making it clear that Billy won't be admitted. Poor Billy. But Bertha does show her nicer side a few minutes later by offering two tickets to Mrs. Bruce, who informs Bertha that she'll be inviting boredom.
- [11:27]
Alicia Malone
Yes, so sweet. And hopefully this time they won't get caught in a rainstorm.
- [11:32]
Gareth Neame
I kind of think that they liked getting stuck together in that rainstorm.
- [11:35]
Alicia Malone
Yes. And soon enough, you know, the big night arrives. The opening nights of Both the Met and the Academy, everyone is getting ready. Bertha strides down the stairs resplendent in green, but Gladys is the belle of the ball in purple.
- [11:51]
Gareth Neame
And what a train. In the words of Larry Russell, where's my grubby little sister? She's gone missing. And then cut to Mrs. Astor and Carrie Astor and Ward McAllister, who are marching out to their waiting carriage. There is no bounce in their step as Ward asks, are you ready for the challenge? To which she responds, it's time to deliver the coup de grace.
- [12:18]
Alicia Malone
And then when we get to the opera houses, I love how different the arrival scene feel at the Met versus the Academy. You know, the Met is bright, colorful and lively, which juxtaposes with the Academy, which is dark, dim, and solemn. As Oscar says, I see all of the skeletons and ghouls are here.
- [12:39]
Gareth Neame
They did look ghoulish. Was it just my screen or did everybody kind of look green and sort of sickly? There's a shot of the crowd and, like, nobody looks like they're happy to be there.
- [12:51]
Alicia Malone
Yeah, it's all very dark and dingy.
- [12:53]
Gareth Neame
However, I was kind of relieved to see Oscar, you know, at least accompanying his mother. They've had a rough couple of days, so I'm glad that they can still go to the opera together.
- [13:03]
Alicia Malone
Well, I don't think he had a choice. Unlike Marian.
- [13:06]
Gareth Neame
Oh, yeah. She's at the Met as Larry's guest and, well, I mean, Bertha's guest. And meanwhile, as Mrs. Winterton is arriving and expecting to enter, you know, the central box, she's instead deposited in her off center box. And, you know, Mr. Winterton is just not having any of her tantrums. He's like, sit down, sit down.
- [13:31]
Alicia Malone
And Both Bertha and Mrs. Astor are waiting for the Duke to turn up. We see him getting ready. The tension builds. Where will he go? Mrs. Astor goes into her box and gasps. It's empty. And at the Met, Bertha strides in like a queen into the beautiful new opera house, which Tom is full of.
- [13:50]
Gareth Neame
I love it. I love it. All the drama, you know, as these women step into their boxes, Bertha is greeted with gasps and applause. You know, by the way, there's a lot of gasping in this episode. Well, Mrs. Astor is greeted with a kind of, like, yawn. I mean, I think I actually saw somebody fanning themselves down there. It's quite a contrast. And then Mamie Fish arrives. You can always hear her coming. She's making noise offstage. She looks around and says, is this it? And she is, like, out of there because of course, she has a box at the Met, too.
- [14:28]
Alicia Malone
So then we see the Duke getting out of his carriage, and he walks into. Drumroll. The Met. There's rapturous applause, and Mamie Fish arrives at the Met just in time after leaving the Academy.
- [14:44]
Gareth Neame
Oh, Elizabeth.
- [14:45]
Alicia Malone
Mrs.
- [14:45]
Gareth Neame
Fish. I didn't think you were coming. I wasn't. But the Academy was a morgue. The fact is, you've won.
- [14:53]
Tom Myers
It can be a mistake to celebrate too soon.
- [14:55]
Gareth Neame
Oh, my dear. American society has been reinvented tonight, and you are at the very heart of it. Ladies and gentlemen, good morning.
- [15:13]
Tom Myers
This is a historic night for New York. Of course, much work and dedication has gone into this endeavor, and I could reel off a list of our benefactors that would keep us occupied until morning. But I won't, except to say thank you to Mrs. George Russell, who has been our muse and inspiration.
- [15:42]
Gareth Neame
Bertha is beaming. She has got a duke kissing her hand. The entire opera house is applauding and gasping her every move. This is her night.
- [15:52]
Alicia Malone
Oh, yes. She is truly the queen of this night.
- [15:56]
Gareth Neame
She also takes a moment to whisper to George that she was responsible for getting Mrs. Winterton thrown out of the Academy.
- [16:03]
Alicia Malone
I knew it all along. Of course it was her. It had to be nobody else. And Mrs. Astor has to accept the truth, that she has lost the opera. And as Ward says, the season of the Academy has drawn to a close. And with that, Tom, let's get into what really happened, you know, off our TV screens in real life. I'm so curious. Was it, as we see here, was the Academy deserted and the Met full on opening night?
- [16:32]
Gareth Neame
Well, I think that the show got to have a little fun with us. The Academy was not, in fact, a morgue that night, but it actually produced a fine Italian opera. The next day's Tribune carried a review of both performances with the headline, both Temples of Music. Well patronized. That stated, quote, the new house was filled with a brilliant audience representing much of the wealth and beauty of New York. The Academy of Music also had a full attendance, and Mr. Mapleson, the director, expressed himself as well, satisfied, not deserted. No. And in another article in the sun, published on October 24, Mapleson, the director of the Academy, said that, quote, I missed but few of the familiar faces of those wealthy patrons of art. But the bigger picture here is that both opera directors were reportedly thrilled that the evening meant that New York was now large enough and culturally rich enough to support two opera houses. I mean, that really was the big story.
- [17:37]
Alicia Malone
Okay, so then, if they could support two opera houses, why did The Academy close. I mean, you know, what happened next?
- [17:45]
Gareth Neame
Well, the Academy would continue to produce operas for a few more seasons, but they had a problem. The Met could offer to pay more for their stars. And so the Academy's top talent, you know, started drifting up to 39th, straight to the Met, leaving the Academy to sort of languish down on 14th Street. And it would present its final opera in 1886, although it would continue on presenting shows, you know, vaudeville and movies later, until it was demolished in the 1920s.
- [18:17]
Alicia Malone
It's sad that that historic building didn't survive.
- [18:20]
Gareth Neame
So true.
- [18:21]
Alicia Malone
Well, we know that Bertha is partly based on Alva Vanderbilt, who was heavily involved with the Met. So was there a ship between Alva and Mrs. Astor over these opera houses?
- [18:33]
Gareth Neame
Well, Alva was all over the new Met. I mean, her husband, Willie K. Vanderbilt, and his father, William H. Vanderbilt, had both been on the organizing committee, as we've discussed before. And she had a couple of great boxes on the parterre level. You know, the first level of boxes. Alba had number 28 and 30, near.
- [18:54]
Alicia Malone
The center, but not the actual center box.
- [18:58]
Gareth Neame
Ah, this is funny, Alicia. There wasn't an actual center box on the first level because they needed to accommodate the center entrance to the ground floor to the orchestra level. So no center box. Sorry, Bertha. Sorry, Mrs. Winterton.
- [19:14]
Alicia Malone
And was there actually a battle between Alba and Mrs. Astor?
- [19:19]
Gareth Neame
I don't really think so. Or at least not as dramatic as we see portrayed on the show. Remember how we talked last season a lot about Mrs. Astor's role as the gatekeeper of society?
- [19:31]
Alicia Malone
Right. She was the one who essentially said who was in and who was out.
- [19:37]
Gareth Neame
Yes. And she knew that in order to keep that role, she had to embrace some of the new people. Right. And the new things. And that's why, Alicia, the Asters bought boxes in both houses. Looking at the diagram of boxes at the Met for opening night, Mrs. William Astor's name was on box nine, just next to William C. Whitney. However, in that Tribune article that was published the day before the openings, they speculated that she'll probably be at the Academy.
- [20:10]
Alicia Malone
So then tell us, where did the real Mrs. Astor go on opening night? The Academy? The Met.
- [20:16]
Gareth Neame
That's the best part. She went to Newport. She avoided the entire drama. I spoke to my colleague Carl Raymond from the Gilded Gentleman podcast about this yesterday, and he underscored to me how Mrs. Astor didn't know how it was going to play out. Right. And so she got out of town. But she would have a commanding place at the Met for Decades. Always arriving late at 9pm and always leaving early at 11.
- [20:45]
Alicia Malone
My kind of lady. So then, both in real life and on the show, the opening night opera at the Met was Faust, which, as Gladys says, is all about a man selling his soul to gain riches and living to regret it. Which seems to me like a warning about whatever deal Bertha did with the duke to get him there. Basically, you know, gifting him. Gladys.
- [21:06]
Gareth Neame
Yes, yes. Back to the duke. It does seem like we're now drifting into the famous story of Charles Spencer Churchill, the 9th Duke of Marlborough, who would, of course, marry Consuelo Vanderbilt, alva's daughter, in 1895. So 12 years after our story here. But he was a duke, and he did need cash. And Alva did seek him out for her daughter.
- [21:30]
Alicia Malone
Mm. Just like Bertha on our show. So, Tom, I have to know, were you on Team Astor or Team Russell this season? Or Team Turner?
- [21:42]
Gareth Neame
I mean, come on. I would never be able to say no to Mrs. Astor about anything. And yet, Bertha is having so much more fun. I think that probably I'm Team Mamie Fish. I think I would be hedging between these two divas. What about you?
- [21:59]
Alicia Malone
Well, I'm Team Turner forever. You know, I've got to stay true to her. But we see here that the fictional Mrs. Astor has lost this fight. So what do you think is next for her and for Ward?
- [22:12]
Gareth Neame
Well, no spoilers here, but in real life, this was only 1883. They weren't going anywhere.
- [22:22]
Alicia Malone
All right, now back to the Van Rhijns. They're still reeling over the news of Oscar losing their family fortune to Maud Beaton and have told the downstairs staff they'll have to look for new jobs. The only member of the staff that doesn't seem too worried about all that is Jack, because he has received his patent.
- [22:40]
Gareth Neame
Oh, man. And when this good news kind of jumped across the room downstairs, everybody erupted with cheers. It was really a burst of, you know, much needed happiness for everybody. Well, for everybody except Armstrong, of course.
- [22:54]
Alicia Malone
Of course. All right, so let's talk now about the fight for the black schools to stay open. Arthur Scott gets wind that the date of the Board of Education's meeting has been switched without their knowledge. And he rushes over to his home, where Sarah, Garnett, Doroth, Peggy, Mr. Fortune and the other volunteers are getting all of their documents ready.
- [23:15]
Gareth Neame
Yeah. He races in and yells, they've tricked us. And within 20 seconds, that entire group has packed up their papers and rushed off to the school board meeting, which is in progress. And Sarah's group demands to know why the three black schools are being closed when they have applications for more students and teachers than they can accommodate.
- [23:36]
Alicia Malone
Well, luckily they managed to save two out of the three schools from closure. And now they also know how to deal with this if it happens in the future. And Sarah Garnett says that they should all be glad. But, Tom, can you tell us what happened in real life?
- [23:49]
Gareth Neame
Well, it's actually quite similar in real life. The state legislature passed a law to abolish these, quote, colored schools by 1884, and it was signed by Governor Cleveland. Although the governor also signed a special bill that allowed two of the black schools in New York City to continue operating largely as they had been. And that included Sarah's colored school number four, which became grammar school number 81. And the New York Times reported that by 1888, at least some white students were enrolled at Sarah's school, although enrollment had dropped. But this, according to Sarah, was largely due to the fact that many were now just attending schools that were closer to their own homes.
- [24:34]
Alicia Malone
So they just didn't need to travel across the city to get to her school.
- [24:39]
Gareth Neame
That's right. And her school closed in 1894, and she would move over to the other historically black school that was now called Grammar School 80, which remained open until about 1900. By the way, I love the scene back at the Scott's house. You know, after all of this success, when it became clear that Arthur has, as Dorothy put it, done well today, I just. I thought it was so sweet, you know, to see Dorothy and Arthur just kind of giggling, you know, and just very loving. It felt good.
- [25:13]
Alicia Malone
Yeah, you're right. I mean, he's earned her trust back again. And that was a really lovely moment between them. And, you know, just talking about Peggy for a min, it seems like she's taken on her mother's advice about finding a life of her own and not getting involved with the married T. Thomas Fortune. Because, Tom, she's decided to leave the Globe.
- [25:35]
Gareth Neame
Yeah. And this big revelation happens while the two are strolling in Central Park. And Fortune tells her that he'll hate to see her go, as will all the others. But she is determined and she. She drops another one of this episode's big philosophical lines. She says, me too, but bad timing shapes our lives. And then she walks off. I mean, clearly sad, but also, it seems like she is now free from this temptation.
- [26:04]
Alicia Malone
Absolutely. And you know, there's another woman who wants a life of her own. Marian. She thinks a lot about Dashiell. And whether she wants to be engaged to him, whether she wants to be just a wife and not a teacher anymore. And whether he truly loves her, or if he's still in love with his deceased wife, Harriet. And after a night of thinking, she comes to a decision.
- [26:28]
Gareth Neame
I cannot marry you. What? I can't be your wife. It wouldn't be right. I'm sorry. But I thought you loved me. I thought you loved Francis. I do love Francis. And I am so sad. If this is disappointing for her, then.
- [26:46]
Tom Myers
Why are you doing it?
- [26:47]
Gareth Neame
Because I don't think we want the same things. Or even the same life. I want a life like everyone else's, but I don't. Or not yet. I want to do some good in the world before I settle down. I don't understand. No, he doesn't understand, which is the whole point. I mean, he's such a great guy. But when he came over earlier to visit and generously offered to pay for the entire wedding, he, of course, called Marian Harriet. And did you see Marian's face when he said that? That was the moment that I knew it was over.
- [27:28]
Alicia Malone
Yeah. And Ada noticed it, too. So, you know, she wasn't surprised by Marian's decision.
- [27:34]
Gareth Neame
I loved Ada's reaction and how she kind of read the whole scene. You know, she saw Dashiell stumble out of the parlor without Marianne. She didn't react like I would have. You know, like, what happened? She just. Ada just kind of, like, smiled serenely, you know, and said, well, I suppose that means you've told him. She always knew, didn't she? Nothing gets by Ada.
- [27:58]
Alicia Malone
But Agnes's reaction to Marian's reveal that the engagement is off was quite unexpected.
- [28:04]
Gareth Neame
Yeah, this one took me by surprise when she said, even I don't expect you to marry to please me. That was just. It wasn't what I was expecting. But, of course, remember, Agnes had a miserable marriage, so she's probably more sympathetic than we give her credit for.
- [28:21]
Alicia Malone
Although she does offer Marian some advice. Or perhaps it's a warning. Now, you have two strikes against you, Marian. The second, more public than the first. You can't afford another.
- [28:34]
Gareth Neame
And then, remember, time passes quickly. Don't throw your life away. That one really stopped me. I mean, there is some real life coaching in this episode. And this. It clearly sticks with Marian, too. Marian, who has grown so much more independent and determined over these two seasons.
- [28:56]
Alicia Malone
She really has. And now, Tom. That means Marian is fancy free, single, and available to kiss Larry Russell. Finally.
- [29:06]
Gareth Neame
Finally. In a nod to season one's finale, Marian and Larry are crossing over 61st street from the Russells to the Van Rhijns. They climb the stairs. They chat about being friends for life. She rings the doorbell. He quickly frowns as he realizes that he's gotta act quick. He steps up, and she falls in. And they kiss. Yes. Finally.
- [29:30]
Alicia Malone
Finally. I was so excited. I'm all for Larry and Marion. Larryan. Shall we say Larryan.
- [29:38]
Gareth Neame
Long live Larian. But moments later, because we haven't had enough breaking news, Larry drops the bombshell that he wants to go into business with Jack. And this results, I think, in the best jaw drop of the season when. When Jack's eyes bulge out and his. His jaw drops several inches. So it's very well played by Ben Ollers.
- [30:02]
Alicia Malone
Yeah, he has a very expressive face. So, you know. Marian is rushed inside where Ada has been waiting to share some big news with her and Agnes. And we've seen throughout this episode how hopeless Agnes's financial situation is. She has no choice but to sell the house. She has to put her clothes away and possibly wear baggy clothes if she can't keep a lady's maid.
- [30:24]
Gareth Neame
Yes, we have watched, you know, this new financial reality sink in with Agnes and the others, including the staff. And we should mention that we've seen Peggy show sympathy for Armstrong, which then inspires Agnes, in another touching moment in this episode, to ask Armstrong to stay on. It's a nice scene, although Armstrong always kind of walks that line of receiving our pity and enraging us at the same time.
- [30:51]
Alicia Malone
That's true. But Ada's big news is Luke Forte, her recently deceased husband, left her a huge amount of money. Surprise, surprise. His grandfather made a fortune in textiles, a business which has kept going, kept adding wealth, and Luke has barely touched it. So that means Ada is rich. And I'm wondering, do you think this is what Luke meant when he told Ada that she was Agnes's equal? Because, I mean, really, she was a married woman, and she was a wealthy married woman at that.
- [31:25]
Gareth Neame
So clever and so cryptic and so surprising. I mean, power dynamics are spinning around the Van Rhijn parlor, and Bannister enters. The whole staff has been up all night. And he gets the bombshell news from a clearly delirious Agnes. Mrs. Forte has inherited a sum from her late husband. So we will not be moving, and all of your jobs are still safe.
- [31:51]
Tom Myers
Hallelujah. And if I may say so, what a relief.
- [31:57]
Gareth Neame
Please feel free to tell them downstairs.
- [32:04]
Tom Myers
Ms. Ada? Yes? Is that your wish?
- [32:10]
Alicia Malone
Why, yes.
- [32:12]
Gareth Neame
Please tell them downstairs.
- [32:16]
Alicia Malone
Thank you. Bannister.
- [32:17]
Tom Myers
Yes, Mom. Thank you, Mom.
- [32:21]
Alicia Malone
This was a fantastic scene. I mean, you see the looks of realization slowly make their way across the faces of Agnes, who is confused, Ada, who is thinking through what this might mean, and Marian, who is just positively gleeful.
- [32:38]
Gareth Neame
Well, it seems like Bannister caught on quickly.
- [32:40]
Alicia Malone
Yeah. And Agnes isn't about to let go that easily. She says, well, I still own the house. And I mean, yeah, that's true. She does.
- [32:48]
Gareth Neame
Yes, but only because she now doesn't need to sell it. And plus, as Marian says, yes, but Aunt Ada will be paying their wages.
- [32:57]
Alicia Malone
I really liked how Ada cryptically says, things may be a little different in the future, Agnes, but I'm sure we'll work it out.
- [33:06]
Gareth Neame
And as Ada smiles, you know, assessing her new unexpected power, season two comes to a close. What a final five minutes. There are so many questions, so many delicious possibilities, so many unexpected twists. What will it mean to have Ada in charge?
- [33:27]
Alicia Malone
We're gonna have to wait to see. And perhaps, you know, we can get some clues from our special guest. Our final episode for this season of the official Gilded Age podcast continues after this break. And we'll be breaking down the entire season with all of that drama with the the executive producer of the Gilded Age, Gareth Neame. Stay with us.
- [33:57]
Gareth Neame
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Tom Myers
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Gareth Neame
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Tom Myers
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Gareth Neame
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Alicia Malone
Burgers deserve Pepsi. Hey, business owners, we know you know.
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Gareth Neame
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Alicia Malone
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Gareth Neame
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Alicia Malone
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Gareth Neame
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Alicia Malone
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Gareth Neame
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Tom Myers
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- [35:14]
Gareth Neame
I love new York. I love everything about it.
- [35:18]
Tom Myers
Good.
- [35:19]
Gareth Neame
I'd hate for us to have to say goodbye.
- [35:22]
Alicia Malone
You'll never say goodbye. We know far too much about each other's lives not to be friends forever.
- [35:30]
Gareth Neame
Don't open the door, Jack. Don't open. Let him kiss Tom.
- [35:34]
Alicia Malone
We've been waiting for this since season one.
- [35:37]
Gareth Neame
What a buildup. Well, we will definitely have to ask our guest about that in a moment. We are so lucky to be joined now by the executive producer of the Gilded Age, Gareth Neame. Gareth is an acclaimed television producer who worked with Lord Julian Fellowes to create the highly successful TV and now film series Downton Abbey. Following their work on Downton, he and Julian Fellowes turned their attention to America with the Gilded Age. Over his career, Gareth Neame has won BAFTA awards, Emmys, Golden Globes. He was also the recipient of the Producers Guild of America's David L. Wolper Award and has received an Order of the British Empire for his services to drama.
- [36:21]
Alicia Malone
Gareth Neame, it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast and as our special final guest this season.
- [36:28]
Tom Myers
What an honor, and I'm a big fan of the show from the first season. So glad to be back.
- [36:34]
Alicia Malone
Thank you.
- [36:35]
Gareth Neame
We're honored and we're so happy to have you here. And before we get into everything that happened to the characters over the past eight weeks, I would just love to take a step back for a moment and talk about your job as the executive producer of the Gilded Age. Can you talk about your job? How do you work together with Julian on the show?
- [36:54]
Tom Myers
Well, I guess we should go back to how this all started. And of course, Julian and I were working on many seasons of Downton Abbey. We turned it from a TV series to a film franchise quite successfully, I'm pleased to say. But if I backtrack some years to probably midway through the run of Downton, we could see what a massive success the show was in the United States, much more than had ever been predicted by us and everyone, I think. So we were aware that there was a whole American angle to this story. And in fact, Julian had written a pilot script many, many years ago of a show about the Vanderbilts. And that series didn't progress, and I think it was rather limited by the fact that it was based on a true story. It was the story of the Vanderbilts, so obviously didn't leave room for fictional invention. And that project never proceeded. But I think the idea was there and so we talked about pursuing a project about New York's Gilded Age. We had to really wait for Julian to finish writing all of the episodes of Downton. So the show as a concept, it was parked for a long time. And he wrote the pilot script for Gilded in 2018, and it had a few stops and starts and was eventually set up at hbo. So I was really. I was heavily involved in developing the series with Julian in the first place and setting it up at hbo. And what's my working relationship with him? I suppose I might suggest I'm his editor. He's the writer. I'm the person who gets to read his stuff first and say, yes, yes, no, maybe, you know, and all of this and hopefully give constructive feedback that helps to build the stories into what they are.
- [38:39]
Alicia Malone
What is it like then, being two Brits who are producing a show shot in America for essentially American audiences about American history? Do you think it does take that outsider perspective to capture the kind of the real truth and the nuance of what was happening during the Gilded Age?
- [38:57]
Tom Myers
Well, yes, I think there is a real asset to that. I'm sure it's the case that large numbers of people watching this show are learning about 19th century New York society, the black elite, the aristocracy of New York. They're learning about this for the first time. It's taken outsiders to come in and say, well, if you love Downton Abbey, you have your own version of it. It all went on here. And it has very many of the same hierarchical customs and etiquette and all of the things, the attention to detail and the social commentary that Julian Pillars writes so eloquently and beautifully. That analysis, that observation, we know this went on all around the world, different sort of customs. And it's particularly interesting, I think, how the American upper middle classes and their kind of equivalent of the aristocracy tried to be as European as possible and model themselves. And we see this all the way through the show. How Bertha, you know, she's plundering the grand houses of Europe for her own residence. And the manners are all based on English manners, and should a meal be served in a French style or an English style? And, you know, that's really fascinating. However, the bit that, of course, there's a whole other side of American history that we were less familiar with, which is more the sort of social history of America, the very, you know, the racial history of America, which, you know, we're less familiar with. And that, of course, is where, you know, we've worked with brilliant partners that we've come to meet over the last few years who've given us so much, you know, context and advice. And I love the way that those stories are interwoven with the elite stories of New York, and it gives this remarkable balance.
- [40:36]
Gareth Neame
Yeah, absolutely. And we just spoke with Dr. Erica Dunbar about all of the research that went into that. How does a show like this give you license to invent some characters, include some other? Like this season, we got to meet Booker T. Washington, you know, and Sarah Garnett, historical figures, and then others who are just based on sort of an amalgam of Gilded Age personalities on Downton Abbey.
- [40:59]
Tom Myers
The main characters are all fictional, but every now and again we would meet a real character from history. And that really helps anchor the stories. It places them in a context. And we've used quite a similar device here, although I think actually we've used way more real characters from history than we did on Downton. Obviously, it gives us the best flexibility with the story telling that our principal characters are all fictional, so they can be amalgams. George is an amalgam of about two or three different robber barons, and Bertha is an amalgam of at least two societies. Ladies. But by having characters like, you know, a character, a supporting character like Ward McAllister, he can be a real character from history and really anchor or, you know, Mrs. Astor and that, you know, so they're more sort of supporting characters of our. The real heroes and heroines. But, yeah, I mean, that's. You know, I, for example, I knew nothing about the Emily Roebling story until Julian showed me a first outline of the ideas for that episode. Immediately, I looked it up and I thought, this is a really fascinating story. It's completely contemporary. 20, 22, 23 of our. It's an absolutely fascinating idea. And as the character says, you know, nobody can know that there was a woman engineer behind this bridge because no man would ever walk along it. And I just think these are stories that are real stories that are as good as anything you could invent and feels very true to us.
- [42:21]
Alicia Malone
Yeah. And there's also a lot of real events being woven into the fictional events this season. We see, you know, a lot of battles. We have the unions versus the robber barons. And then, of course, you have Bertha versus Turner and Armstrong versus Peggy. The Board of education versus the black schools. So would you say that all of these conflicts that we see in the show are a result of the amount of change that was happening during the Gilded Age?
- [42:49]
Tom Myers
Yes. I mean, it was. The industrialization of the nation was, of course, what allowed America to overtake Great Britain as the sort of dominant power of the world? It may have been one of the most important periods of modern history. You know, that huge growth of industry and spreading west across the nation. The railroads, the steel, the shipbuilding created these wealthy individuals, created the need for the workforce on a level that had never been seen before. And thus the trade union movement is born of that. So, yeah, it's absolutely fascinating era. And those stories are so contrasting, aren't they? I love the way we go from the Henderson meeting, the union meeting, straight into the opera wars. You know, they're all moments of conflicts and very, very different ends of the scale.
- [43:34]
Alicia Malone
Yeah, that's always the fun part for us on the podcast, too, pivoting from, you know, one moment to another in a way that works.
- [43:41]
Gareth Neame
I mean, another element that we have to have and that you certainly gave us this season is romance, although several of those didn't really work out in the long term. I mean, I'm thinking Ada and the Reverend Luke Forte, Dashiell and Marian, and of course, Oscar and Maude. But could we talk about Dashiell and Marian for a second? Alicia and I have been talking about this sort of sense of unease that we felt with their relationship, really, you know, as the audience from the beginning. Was that intended? Was it intended that they feel just a little bit off? And were we never really supposed to like this setup?
- [44:19]
Tom Myers
I think it contrasts with the first season where she has followed her heart and made a great big mistake. She spends much of season one telling her aunts that she's right and they're wrong, as young people usually do. I think she's hurt and ashamed at the end of the first season. And we. We meet her in the second season where a perhaps slightly more measured Marian is prepared to take advice. And I think all young people have. Most young people have been in these positions, haven't they, where. Where they're trying to navigate relationships and that sometimes you know best, and then sometimes you are open to the opinion of others, be that friends or. Or older relatives. And I think she's. She thinks I. I did it on my own, and I got it spectacularly wrong. And here is this perfectly husband. So I think to, you know, in the 1880s, that potential match wouldn't have seemed unusual. And I think there were fewer marriages made for love than they were in the 20th century. And fortunately, our Marian works out. She learns through this, as she learned in the first season, that there is a difference between pragmatic relationships and true love. And she knows that she doesn't love him. And crucially, she knows that he doesn't love her. He loves his late wife. And she is, I think, by the end of the second season, a wiser, more sophisticated, more romantically mature woman than a few episodes earlier.
- [45:41]
Gareth Neame
Yeah. And as you mentioned, there's that contrast with Aunt Agnes. Right. And their views on marriage. And Agnes even sort of in that terrible scene in the botanical garden, you know, saying, yes, I do, she basically said, I do for Marian from the audience. But then by the end of this episode, you know, when Agnes has gotten the news that Marian has broke off the engagement, she surprised me. I mean, she said, even I don't expect you to get married to somebody you don't love. So maybe they're actually closer to the same viewpoint.
- [46:14]
Tom Myers
And Agnes, of course, has gone on a huge journey across these eight episodes. You know, that relationship with her sister has sort of gone full circle, I think, particularly over the marriage. You know, that sense of selfishness and a sense of abandonment. But that wonderful moment when she does, of course, arrive at the church and will ultimately support her sister and is the staunchest supporter of her at all of all when Luke is dying.
- [46:43]
Gareth Neame
Yeah. And of course, she has her own story. I mean, she has her own backstory with her own marriage.
- [46:48]
Tom Myers
Exactly.
- [46:49]
Gareth Neame
She did marry somebody she didn't love.
- [46:51]
Alicia Malone
Yeah. Someone pretty awful, it sounds like.
- [46:53]
Gareth Neame
We talked about the romance that didn't work. Let's talk about the one that did work. I mean, the payoff here, finally, after two seasons, you know, in the last, almost the last scene, we see finally, Marian and Larry kiss. We've been really hoping for this since the end of season one. Did you sort of. How do you construct that? Do you tease the audience a little bit without giving too much away throughout the whole thing and set it up? It's the opposite of Dashiell, really. I mean, we want this to happen.
- [47:24]
Tom Myers
Well, this is a sort of house style that Julian and I have used before. And in fact, if you remember the early seasons of Downton Abbey, you had the whole Mary Matthew thing. We managed to keep that going for at least two seasons. Yeah. It was two seasons before he proposed to her. So what you said, Tom, about Larry and Marian and the idea that everyone thought from the beginning this is actually the ideal partnership. Well, of course, that's exactly what we want to hear the audience say. We want that the sort of tension, the sexual, romantic tension that comes from these characters, if we've designed it right and if we've cast it well, that the audience are picking up these things, just as in real life. We notice our friends who all marry the wrong people and miss out on the people that they should have married. You know, we see this everywhere we look. This is a great thing. So fascinating about humanity. So, yeah, it's great that the audience think they should get together. And we'll have to see in the third season maybe, what does happen between them.
- [48:23]
Gareth Neame
You give this to us in the very last scene of the last episode. Yeah, we have to wait a year now. Yeah. It's like there's a certain bittersweet quality to this. Right. That we have to wait.
- [48:36]
Tom Myers
Well, that's series television, I suppose.
- [48:41]
Alicia Malone
Well, Peggy also had a whirlwind of a season. You know, she went through a lot this season. And I know that Danae Benton was quite involved with her character last time. Do some of the cast, especially now that they are so familiar with their characters this season.
- [48:58]
Tom Myers
That's the real joy of second seasons compared to first seasons, because, you know, you usually have most of the scripts of the first season done before you start because you have to have a roadmap. But those are just words on a page. Nothing actually has been crystallized. Nothing exists. So the characters, as written in the first season are inventions. And by the second season, of course, they're fully formed characters and performances that then informs the way a second series and all future seasons are written. And the character becomes a bit of the actor and a bit of what the writer originally conceived of. And they evolve. And, you know, ultimately the individual actor is the principal custodian of those characters. And you mentioned Danae and. Yes, I mean, she's formed a great bond with Erica Dunbar, and they discuss these historical stories, get the context right. So, yeah, they are involved. I mean, it would be wrong to say that it's. That it's in any way written by a committee of actors. And the actors themselves would be the first to say that is not how it happens. But there is this sort of shared ownership between the writers, producers, and the actors of those characters. And we all shape them in those different ways. But the job of each actor is just that one character and to be the guardian of that character.
- [50:12]
Gareth Neame
Well, another character who finally came into his own this season was Jack or. Or John rather, who really developed becoming an inventor, no less, and is going into business with Larry Russell. Can you tell us about Jack's journey this season?
- [50:30]
Tom Myers
The very heart of the show is obviously the, you know, the social manner and the social behavior of New York society. That's the very heart of it. But we are trying to depict a much wider impression of America at that time. And, of course, the Jack story is another one of the big American dreams and the big American stories. He's got nothing. He's poorly paid, poorly educated young man, but he's got ambition. And so that idea of a young man who has an invention and can make something from his invention and come from nothing to be a man of industry is a different story from George's, but nonetheless absolutely at the heart of the American story.
- [51:11]
Alicia Malone
Yeah, it's the American dream, really, isn't it, that you can make anything of yourself. And speaking of, at the end of the big opera war this season, Mrs. Russell has beaten Mrs. Astor. She's had the triumphant opening of the Met with the duke in her box. And, you know, Mamie Fish tells her, American society has been reborn tonight, and you're at the very heart of it. So what does this mean for Mrs. Astor and the old guard moving forward?
- [51:41]
Tom Myers
You know, Bertha's journey ends the first season as a member of society and ends the second season as really the head of society. So we have seen her ascent now, and we will see Mrs. Astor's further decline as the campaign between these two teams continues.
- [51:59]
Alicia Malone
So what has changed for Mrs. Russell? What could be next for her, maybe?
- [52:04]
Tom Myers
Well, I think with power comes responsibility. And when you get to the top, there's only one other place to go. So she'll no doubt have some ups and downs.
- [52:15]
Alicia Malone
Have to wait and see.
- [52:18]
Gareth Neame
Well, across 61st street, over at the Van Rhijns house, there's been a lot of drama, right? Agnes has seen her fortune wiped out, and Ada, of course, the devastating loss of her husband. But then she comes into her own surprise fortune by the end of this episode. And, you know, watching this one thing happen, watching the loss of fortune and the gaining of another, it's kind of like the Gilded Age world that we knew here sort of spun and realigned unexpectedly with Ada at its center here, even Bannister defers to Ada at the end of this episode. Can you talk about that twist building that twist and kind of what just happened?
- [52:59]
Tom Myers
Well, again, these the complete vault farce in the story are you set up a world and then you completely turn it on its head, as you say. And that's what we have here. It's these classic Julian Fellowes, the moment you refer to, which is that Bannister immediately understands that this means effectively his boss has changed because you have to follow the money, of course, it takes A little longer for it to sink in with Agnes. She doesn't really think necessarily that anything particularly will change, but Bannister understands immediately. And it's almost like an election, isn't it? The moment that the election is won or lost, the loser has to concede defeat. Well, that's how things work anyway. And I just. I think, yeah, it's not. It's not just the dynamic between the two sisters. It's. Then again, it's classic, fellows. It's the. The outsider, it's the servant's point of view who gets that, gets there quicker and sees how all the rules have suddenly changed. And I think it's the most. I mean, you like the. The Marian and Larry hook. Well, that's great. But I happen to love this because how they will get out. And it means the great thing for serious television when you want to run to multiple seasons. And how do you keep the scene going? How do you keep it interesting? How do you stop things getting repetitive, which is always the challenge. And if you throw something completely upside down, of course, if you think about it, the scenes to play between Agnes and Ada, they all have to be completely different.
- [54:29]
Gareth Neame
But again, we're going to have to wait to see what happens next. Not sure. Gareth, could we speak for a moment about Maude Beaton? Because she actually made us feel sorry again for Oscar Van Rhine, which is not that easy to do, but she did. Could you tell us about the inspiration behind Maude and developing this storyline? There were several female swindlers who might have served as inspiration, but tell us about Maude.
- [54:58]
Tom Myers
It's a sort of mainstay of Julian's writing, that when somebody is down on their luck, they tend to be really down on their luck. He gets beaten up. He decides he has to. I gotta get my life. I have to have a mainstream, normal life. I need to have a wife and I need to have a place in society. So Gladys is. We already know from season one that he's got interest in that direction. So he tries to follow that through. That goes nowhere. And he accepts that and then meets Maud and thinks she could be absolutely perfect. And then that, of course, goes wrong as well and leads, you know, of course, by the end of the season to the loss of the family's entire wealth. So it's that sense. I mean, we saw it with the character of Lady Edith, for example, in Downton, who for multiple seasons, everything went wrong every single. Because there are people like that in life. Fortunately for Edith, things do go right for her. By the Final season or so. And thus it is with Oscar as well. I mean, he's not getting a break yet, but maybe he will eventually.
- [55:55]
Gareth Neame
Are you gonna give him a break in season three?
- [55:59]
Tom Myers
Notice I said maybe he will get a break.
- [56:03]
Alicia Malone
Well, when you look back over season two, I'm wondering, like, what are you most proud of or what do you hope to leave audiences with?
- [56:12]
Tom Myers
So I'm really pleased with the show that Julian and I have been able to open the eyes of a mainstream, broad, American domestic audience into the story of where you guys came from and how modern America was built. The other big difference between Downton and Gilded Age is that Downton is all about the dying of the light. It's about the end of an age and the end of an era. The Gilded Age is a show about the future. It may actually be set deeper in history than. Obviously, Downton is a 20th century show. This is a 19th century show. But Gilded feels far more modern than Downton is. Downton has motor cars and telephones and things that we don't have in Gilded Age. But Gilded Age is in New York City at its biggest period of change and industrial and political revolution and societal revolution. The great thing is that we've depicted it on screen. We brought awareness to it. And as a lover of history, like you guys, I just love telling these stories, and that's the piece I'm most happy about.
- [57:17]
Gareth Neame
Thank you for creating that world and bringing 19th century America to life. And thank you for joining us. And congratulations on completing season two of the Guild.
- [57:27]
Tom Myers
Thank you. Well, it was a joy to do, and it's always a great pleasure to talk to you both.
- [57:32]
Alicia Malone
Thank you.
- [57:32]
Gareth Neame
Thank you. Well, it is all that was so interesting talking to Gareth. And I now feel Alicia actually more excited than ever about season three. Where, oh, where are they going to take these many storylines? I know.
- [57:52]
Alicia Malone
I can't wait to see what happens with Bertha after her opera success and how Larian develops.
- [58:00]
Gareth Neame
Well, judging from what Gareth just told us, the series will probably continue to. To surprise us. What a season this has been. What a rollercoaster. I just. I feel so lucky to have watched it all and talked it all through with you. Alicia, thank you so much for joining me.
- [58:17]
Alicia Malone
Oh, thank you. I mean, it's been so much fun to talk about operas. And Agnes with you, Tom.
- [58:26]
Gareth Neame
So many opera boxes to talk through.
- [58:28]
Alicia Malone
And both of us hope that you all enjoy your trip through the Gilded Age season two. We loved having you with us.
- [58:35]
Gareth Neame
Yes, we did. Thank you all so much for listening. Until next time. Bye. Bye, everybody.
- [58:40]
Alicia Malone
Bye.
- [58:50]
Gareth Neame
This has been the official Gilded Age Podcast, written, hosted and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Meyers. Our supervising producer is Andrew Pemberton Fowler. Our consulting producer is Grant Rutter.
- [59:05]
Alicia Malone
Our editor is Trey Boudy. With special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt and Siobhan Slater from HBO and Hannah Pettison and Amy Machado from Pod People.
- [59:15]
Gareth Neame
Listen to the official Gilded Age Podcast after each episode airs on Max or wherever you find podcasts.
- [59:22]
Alicia Malone
Want even more extra content and behind the scenes moments from the Gilded Age? Follow us on Facebook and Instagram gildedagehbo to join the conversation. Today.
- [59:33]
Gareth Neame
The official Gilded Age Podcast is a production of HBO in partnership with Pod People. Pod People.