“The Gilded Age as We Have Found It” with Kelli O’Hara, Dr. Stanley Burns, and John Carrafa

Summary

The Official Gilded Age Podcast: “The Gilded Age as We Have Found It” – Episode Summary

Release Date: August 13, 2025
Guest Speakers: Kelli O’Hara, Dr. Stanley Burns, and John Carrafa
Hosts: Alicia Malone (Turner Classic Movies) and Tom Meyers (The Bowery Boys Podcast)

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Introduction

In this special bonus episode of The Official Gilded Age Podcast, hosts Alicia Malone and Tom Meyers reflect on Season Three of HBO's The Gilded Age. This episode serves as a comprehensive wrap-up, delving into the overarching themes, memorable character journeys, hidden historical references, and behind-the-scenes insights. Additionally, the hosts engage in exclusive interviews with key contributors—Actress Kelli O’Hara, Medical Consultant Dr. Stanley Burns, and Choreographer John Carrafa—to provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the show's intricate production elements.

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Season Three Overview and Major Themes

Tom Meyers begins by summarizing the expansive journeys of the show's characters:

• Gladys Russell becomes a duchess.
• Aurora Fane undergoes a forced divorce.
• Jack Trenor transforms into a wealthy inventor.
• Ada Russell steps up as the new head of the household.
• Additional arcs include Oscar finding his softer side, Maude Beaton's reappearance, Trent Ford's storyline, Bertha Russell taking over Mrs. Astor's ball, Mrs. Winterton becoming a widow, and Ward McAllister being pushed out of society. The inclusion of the Haymarket also adds political and social drama to the narrative.

Alicia Malone prompts a discussion on the season's central themes:

1. Love and Marriage: The exploration of marriages for love versus those arranged for strategic purposes. Multiple proposals and a grand wedding underscore this theme.

   • Tom Meyers: “Who gets to marry for love? Who gets pushed into marriage because of outside sort of strategic purposes.” [03:02]

2. Divorce: Introduced early with Aurora's husband Charles demanding a divorce, and further developed through Charlotte Drayton and the strained marriage between George and Bertha Russell.

   • Alicia Malone: “We saw the other side of marriage, which is divorce.” [03:23]

3. Ambition: Highlighted through characters like Mrs. Kirkland and Bertha Russell, whose high ambitions for their children lead to familial conflicts.

   • Tom Meyers: “Bertha's character, two very ambitious women who had big ambitions for their own children.” [04:12]

4. Progressive Causes: The season delves into temperance, suffrage, and black rights, featuring events like Peggy’s lecture in Newport advocating for African American rights.

   • Alicia Malone: “We went to temperance meetings and suffrage meetings, and we witnessed a talk given by PEGG in Newport about fighting for black rights.” [04:26]

5. Trust and Honesty: Explored through the relationship between Larry and Marian Larian.

   • Tom Meyers: "Trust was very important this season and honesty." [04:44]

6. Power Dynamics: A recurring question throughout the season is, “Who is in charge?”

   • Alicia Malone: “Who's in charge here? That was the name of episode one of season three. And honestly, I feel like that expression could be applied to this entire season.” [04:54]

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Character Journeys

Most Intriguing Journeys:

• Aunt Ada Russell (Ada):
  Tom Meyers selects Ada's transformation into the head of the household as the most intriguing journey.

  • Tom Meyers: “Ada's journey, coming into that position of power. Assuming new responsibilities and taking charge.” [05:21]

• Jack Trenor:
  Alicia Malone highlights Jack's embodiment of the American Dream, depicting both the triumphs and challenges of newfound wealth.

  • Alicia Malone: “Jack doesn't have to work as a footman anymore, but wealth wasn't actually his goal… now he's at a loss of what to do with his time.” [05:45]

Notable Moments:

• Aurora Fane’s Divorce Scene:
  A poignant moment where the servant laments not having had a home, reflecting Aurora's turmoil.
  • Servant: “I've never had a home before this one.” [06:14]

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Hidden Historical Tidbits

The hosts delve into subtle historical references woven into the show's narrative:

• Italian Opera Debate:
  An exchange about whether operas should be performed in their original language or translated, reflecting real historical debates in the Metropolitan Opera.

  • Tom Meyers: “They talked about last season's Italian season at the Metropolitan Opera, which really did happen.” [07:03]

• Consuelo Vanderbilt’s Memoir:
  A reenactment of Consuelo Vanderbilt standing up to Lady Sarah, mirroring real-life events described in her memoir.

  • Alicia Malone: “Gladys stood up for herself against Lady Sarah because that was a reconstruction of a real moment that happened with Consuelo Vanderbilt.” [08:39]

Additional Historical Insights:

• Alva Vanderbilt’s Divorce and Remarriage:
  Discussed in the podcast but not directly in the show, highlighting the scandalous remarriage of Alva Vanderbilt shortly after Consuelo’s wedding.

  • Tom Meyers: “Alva remarried Oliver Belmont, another heir to a fortune… they ended up getting the mayor of New York City to officiate.” [09:34]

• Mrs. Bruce and Borden:
  A storyline involving unrequited love and societal pressures regarding marriage and existing commitments.

  • Alicia Malone: “Mrs. Bruce had to say no to Borden because she's already married.” [11:09]

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Favorite Quotes and Rewatchable Moments

Favorite Historical Tidbits:

• Agnes Zingers’ Witty Lines:
  Highlighting Agnes's memorable quotes, particularly her line before the temperance meeting.
  • Alicia Malone: “Let the sober circus begin.” [12:19]

Rewatchable Scenes:

• Aurora Fane’s "Bedecked Myself in These Gowns" Line:
  A standout moment showcasing Aurora's emotional depth and the actor’s prowess.

  • Alicia Malone: “Aurora Fane saying, ‘and I bedecked myself in these gowns’” [13:32]

• Larry Proposes to Marian:
  A tender scene shot on a spinning stage, adding a layer of complexity unnoticed in initial viewings.

  • Tom Meyers: “We shot that entire scene on a sort of lazy Susan, a spinning stage.” [13:35]

Notable Quote Exchanges:

• Gladys and Lady Sarah:
  • Lady Sarah: “Are you quite well?” [09:07]
  • Gladys: “Why shouldn't I be? …” [09:10]

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Behind-the-Scenes Insights and Cut Interviews

Cut Interview Clip with Visual Effects Supervisor Douglas Perver:

Discusses crowd duplication techniques used in significant scenes like the Metropolitan Opera House and the baseball game.

• John Carafa: “Crowd duplication is such a huge part of our work… we had to create a ton of people.” [15:17]

Costume Designer Kasha Walika Mamone’s Insights:

Reveals the intentional choice for bridesmaids to wear white, a historically accurate detail that differs from contemporary norms.

• Bannister: “All the bridesmaids were identical and wore white, which was surprising to the first glance.” [16:56]

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Further Reading and Watching Recommendations

Books Recommended by Tom Meyers:

1. "The Glitter and the Gold: The American Duchess in Her Own Words" by Consuelo Vanderbilt Balson
2. "Consuelo and Alva: The Story of a Daughter and a Mother in the Gilded Age" by Amanda MacKenzie Stewart
3. "Society as I Have Found It" by Ward McAllister
4. "King Lear and the Gilded Age" by Elizabeth Drexelaer
5. "A Season of the Court of Mrs. Astor in Gilded Age New York" by Greg King
6. "Black: A Family History of African Americans in 19th Century New York City" by Carla Peterson

Movies Recommended by Alicia Malone:

1. "The Age of Innocence" (1934 & 1993 versions) – Based on Edith Wharton’s novel.
2. "The House of Mirth" (2000) – Starring Julianne Moore.
3. "The Magnificent Ambersons" (1942) – Directed by Orson Welles.
4. "Hester Street" (1975) – Directed by Joan Micklin Silver.
5. "Washington Square" (1949 & 1997 versions) – Based on Henry James’s novel.

Alicia Malone emphasizes the importance of these works in understanding the societal norms and personal dramas of the Gilded Age.

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Exclusive Interviews

1. Kelli O’Hara on Playing Aurora Fane

Kelli O’Hara discusses the depth and transformation of her character, Aurora Fane, particularly focusing on her forced divorce and progressive streak in an era restrictive to women's choices.

• Kelli O’Hara: “Aurora is the picture of someone trying to do everything right… her progressive streak… she's trying to know more and educate herself.” [25:31]

She highlights the emotional challenges of portraying Aurora’s turmoil and her interactions with Ward Horton, who plays her unempathetic husband.

• Kelli O’Hara: “I want to show the devastation of what it would have done to a woman at no fault of her own.” [27:21]

O’Hara also shares anecdotes about embodying Aurora’s character, including her struggle with accents and the naturalism in her performance.

Notable Quotes:

• Kelli O’Hara: “When I bedecked myself in these gowns, I was looking forward to your coming home.” [34:20]
• Kelli O’Hara: “I never tried to lose my Southern accent because… it's my voice.” [35:12]

2. Dr. Stanley Burns on Medical Authenticity

Dr. Stanley Burns, an ophthalmologist and medical consultant, provides insights into the portrayal of medical procedures, particularly the emergency surgery scene involving George Russell.

• Dr. Burns: “Photography supplemented the written word by supplying detailed information you would never get from a book.” [39:23]
• Dr. Burns: “In the Gilded Age, you could do your surgery at home, which was often preferred.” [44:46]

He elaborates on the historical accuracy of medical practices, such as the use of anesthesia and the role of African American doctors in the period.

• Dr. Burns: “African American physicians, surgeons in Europe could attain an important place in medical culture.” [46:16]

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Burns: “Holding someone down was really a common aspect of surgical procedures at the time.” [48:27]
• Dr. Burns: “The waltz in this era is a bizarre form of dancing… but each dancer has their own style.” [55:43]

3. John Carrafa on Choreography and Dance Representation

Choreographer John Carrafa discusses the intricate dance sequences, emphasizing historical accuracy and storytelling through movement. He explains the challenges of portraying 19th-century dances like the quadrille and the waltz, particularly in differentiating between the white and black balls.

• John Carrafa: “I built something between a quadrille and a waltz… patterns like a quadrille.” [60:10]
• John Carrafa: “The black community had even more of a reason to be vigilant about really obeying the rules.” [58:22]

Carrafa highlights the dedication of the dancers, who create personas and backstories to embody their characters fully.

• John Carrafa: “We give them a history packet… they're just so excited about it from the beginning.” [62:16]

Notable Quotes:

• John Carrafa: “It's really about being as specific as possible, but even then, everyone has their own style.” [53:43]
• John Carrafa: “The black dancers just embrace this whole idea and we're so excited about it from the beginning.” [62:45]

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Conclusion

Alicia Malone and Tom Meyers wrap up the episode by expressing their gratitude to the listeners, the podcast production teams, and the show's creators. They reflect on the profound impact of The Gilded Age, highlighting the dedication of the cast and crew in bringing historical authenticity and emotional depth to the series.

• Tom Meyers: “Making the show is really wonderful because we get to know a little bit more about what goes into the show and really appreciate the level of artistry.” [64:01]

The hosts sign off with anticipation for the next season, acknowledging the lasting connection they've built with the audience and the community surrounding The Gilded Age.

• Alicia Malone: “Thank you for joining us this season. We will be back next season. Woohoo.” [65:21]

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This episode serves as both a celebration of Season Three's achievements and an insightful exploration into the historical and production elements that make The Gilded Age a compelling portrayal of America's opulent yet tumultuous era.

Transcript

[Bannister]

What is it, Bannister?

[Servant]

I'm very sorry, but we must know downstairs who is in charge of the house now.

[Bannister]

Well, why must things change? For a very good reason, that is, I. You are quite right, Bannister. Things have changed. Mrs. Forte is the head of the household now. Well, in a way, I suppose Mrs. Forte will give the orders from now on.

[Alicia Malone]

Hello. Welcome to a very special bonus episode of the official Gilded Age podcast. I'm Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies, and joining me one more time is Tom Meyers from the Bowery Boys podcast. Hi, Tom.

[Tom Meyers]

Hello, Alicia. Oh, man. Can you believe it? Here we are at the end of the season. We made it through, you know, all eight episodes on the official Gilded Age podcast, talking about the TV show, but we couldn't stop. So we thought that we would do one more bonus episode to sort of stand back and talk about the season as a whole and talk about what moments we love the most, which new characters we love the most, what made us laugh, what made us cry repeatedly. You know, this is. Instead of Ward McAllister's, you know, society as I have found it, this is the Gilded Age season three as we have found it.

[Alicia Malone]

I love that. And we have some new interviews to share as well. We're going to be chatting with one cast member who had a very big season, Kelly o', Hara, who plays Aurora Fane, as well as two behind the scenes experts, choreographer John Carafa and medical consultant Dr. Stanley Burns. Well, so much happened this season, it's hard to know where to start. So why don't we begin with using our favorite word, journey, and talk about the big journeys the existing characters had? I mean, Gladys became a duchess. Aurora was forced into a divorce. Jack became a wealthy inventor. Ada stepped up as the head of the household. What else? What am I missing?

[Tom Meyers]

Let's see. Oscar found his softer side, at least briefly. Maude Beaton showed up again. I think we're allowed to call her Maude or Dolly. Trent. Bertha took over Mrs. Astor's ball. Mrs. Winterton became a widow. Ward McAllister was pushed out of society. We got to go to the Haymarket. I mean, a lot happened.

[Alicia Malone]

So much drama and so many journeys. But before we get to our favorites, actually, I'd love for us to just give an overview of the themes from season three. What would you say were the biggest, biggest themes this season?

[Tom Meyers]

Well, here on the podcast, I feel like we kept coming back to a couple key sort of central themes, and at the top of that list would be, of course, love and marriage. Right who gets to marry for love? Who gets pushed into marriage because of outside sort of strategic purposes. I mean, there were multiple marriage proposals in this season alone, and there was one whopper of a wedding.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes, there was. And we also saw the other side of marriage, which is divorce. The theme of divorce was established from the very first episode with Aurora's husband Charles, demanding a divorce. But there was also Charlotte Drayton. And also some existing marriages were beginning to look a little shaky.

[Tom Meyers]

I think you might be talking about George and Bertha there. Yeah. Things got a little bit dicey between the two of them, which brings up another thing that was really explored, which is ambition. And as we talked about in our Last episode, episode eight, you know, we saw in Mrs. Kirkland's character and in Bertha's character, two very ambitious women who had big ambitions for their own children and whose own children actually ended up turning against them over the course of the season.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Bertha and Mrs. Kirkland. There was also the theme of progressive causes. We went to temperance meetings and suffrage meetings, and we witnessed a talk given by PEGG in Newport about fighting for black rights.

[Tom Meyers]

Yes. And we saw a parallel black elite for the first time that really did exist in Newport at the time. And, you know, which has been so underrepresented in popular culture. I don't think we've ever seen this before. We got to see a black baseball game and go to a black society ball.

[Alicia Malone]

And also, the theme of trust was very important this season and honesty. And we definitely saw that play out between Larry and Marian Larian.

[Tom Meyers]

And, of course, who's in charge? Alicia, who is in charge here? That was the name of episode one of season three. And honestly, I feel like that expression could be applied to this entire season. Who was in charge?

[Alicia Malone]

Absolutely. I still don't know. Okay, so those are some of the major themes. But now let me ask you, what would be your pick for most intriguing character journey of this season?

[Tom Meyers]

Well, instinctively, I want to say Ward McAllister, because he gets pushed out of society. But I'm going to keep it positive here since we're wrapping things up and go with Aunt Ada. Season three really explored her journey, coming into that position of power. Right. And assuming the new responsibilities and taking charge and eventually sitting at the very head of the table. What about you?

[Alicia Malone]

I'm gonna choose Jack because, as we've talked about on this podcast, he is the embodiment of the American Dre. But what I found especially interesting about his storyline was that it showed both the pros and the cons of that Dream of achieving your dreams, you know, now he's a wealthy man. He doesn't have to work as a footman anymore, but wealth wasn't actually his goal, and he liked his job. And now he's at a loss of what to do with his time, and he had to move out as well.

[Servant]

I've never had a home before this one.

[Dr. Stanley Burns]

Not a real home.

[Alicia Malone]

Then this must be our secret.

[Bannister]

Not forever, but for now.

[Tom Meyers]

That was a sad moment, but it turns around form. But we'll get to that in just one second.

[Alicia Malone]

Okay, next, I want to talk about our favorite hidden historical tidbits. So not the major plot lines, but those blink and you'll miss it nods to history. You know, those little nuggets that felt like they were purposely included for you, Tom, just to track down and figure out. Like the song I Dream of Jeannie with the light brown hair.

[Tom Meyers]

Oh, I know what you're getting at. Yeah. And now I've got I dream of Jeannie with the light brown hair stuck again in my head. I was singing that. I think I sung it a couple times on the episode.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I think you sung it to one of our interview guests, too.

[Tom Meyers]

Yes. So, no, that was fun. But I just. I have to say, I love how much history the writers and the producers put in and the directors put into this show. It's just these little nods. I mean, in that case, music in. You know, it just. There's. As we have said before, I feel like every line counts in terms of something. Yeah. Little nugget that I couldn't get out of a rabbit hole. I think it was this Italian opera exchange that happens. Remember the dinner that Bertha has to throw to impress Mr. Merrick? And George is sitting there, and there's a weird flirtation between Mr. Merrick and Bertha, but they briefly just kind of talk about last season's Italian season at the Metropolitan Opera, which really did happen. The first season was all in Italian. Even operas that were not written, librettas that were not written in Italian were translated into Italian. And this was a whole debate within the opera going public about whether all opera should be sung in Italian or whether or not it should be sung in German, if it was written in German. So this is a whole thing. They get into it just briefly in, like, two sentences there, and it was a blink, and you miss it. And then later, actually, Oscar brings up the subject again, really, to Mrs. Fish, to Mamie when they are outside during an intermission at the Metropolitan Opera. So it's a subject that is, again, dabbled in front of us, and I'm just going to take the bait. So I loved it. I loved it. What about you?

[Alicia Malone]

Well, I really like the moment where Gladys stood up for herself against Lady Sarah because that was a reconstruction of a real moment that happened with Consuelo Vanderbilt. And the scene in the show is quite similar to how Consuelo describes it in her memoir. There was a dinner with the real Sarah and Consuelo where Consuelo asked Sarah if she was feeling ill. Sarah.

[Tom Meyers]

Are you quite well?

[Bannister]

Why shouldn't I be? I thought when you stood without waiting for me, you must be ill. So glad if I was wrong.

[Alicia Malone]

Also, Tom, on the subject of history, were there other historical tidbits that we just didn't get time to explore in this podcast?

[Tom Meyers]

Well, I think the one real life story that we really didn't get to get into on the podcast because it doesn't fit neatly in with the TV show, is Alva Vanderbilt's own divorce that happened before Consuela's wedding. But even more importantly, we did talk about that on the podcast, but we didn't talk about the fact that just a couple months after Consuela's wedding In January of 1896, that's two months later, Alva remarried. And she remarried Oliver Belmont, another, you know, heir to a fortune with fabulous places in Newport. So she retained her place in society, but it was something that everybody was talking about. It was, you know, she was breaking new, new ground here. So there is this whole other story happening of her own scandalous wedding that took place like, minutes after her daughters, and they couldn't even find somebody to officiate. I mean, they ended up getting the mayor of New York City to do the, to do the job. Although, to be fair to Bertha, we do see her get kind of flirty with other men in this season. For example, Mr. DeLancey, I only wish you knew how much more interesting you are than the Duke of Buckingham.

[Alicia Malone]

And there were a few storylines that we just didn't get a chance to talk about in this podcast. You know, the one that springs to mind for me is Mrs. Bruce and Borden. He proposed to her, but then she had to say no because it's revealed that she is already married. Despite this, Borden is still in love with her, maybe even more so because he hears how she, she's continued to look after her ill husband.

[Tom Meyers]

I think that I would have liked to have spent a little bit more time really examining Arthur's backstory. We did talk with Dr. Dunbar about that, you know. But there's some real fascinating and very rich material there. In season three, we learned more about his own journey. It would be fascinating to explore that further. And especially because he's notable in that he's really one of the only characters we see sort of take on Agnes in the show. Right. And sort of bring up to her face her own privilege and really kind of hint at her own prejudice. So I think that Arthur is a just a fantastic character who opens up a lot that needs to be discussed. But I want to turn to Agnes now for a second. We love Agnes Zingers. We have throughout seasons one and two and season three is no exception. She's just got such funny lines. And Christine Baranski gives perfect delivery. Did you have any particular favorite Agnesisms this season?

[Alicia Malone]

My favorite Agnesism was her line just before the temperance meeting in episode one where she said, let the sober circus begin. And that was a line that we actually said to Christine Baranski and she said it with us. And that brought me a lot of joy. What about you?

[Tom Meyers]

That was a moment. That was a moment, yes. When Agnes is talking about her falling, diminishing place in society where she says that maybe as she laments to her sister Ada, well, perhaps I will find.

[Bannister]

My place in Newport with Aurora and I'll spend the rest of my days with society's castoffs and women of ill reputed. At least they'll have wine.

[Tom Meyers]

It's all about that little beat that she took at the end before the zinger and Ada's eye roll. It was very, very funny.

[Alicia Malone]

It was perfect. I did watch that scene a few times just to see that interaction between them. Which actually brings me to my next category, which is most rewatchable moment. You know, what was the moment that you found yourself rewinding and watching over and over again? I think for many of our listeners it was probably Aurora Fane saying, and I bedecked myself in these gee gores.

[Tom Meyers]

You know, we should really ask Kelly about that line.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah.

[Tom Meyers]

When we talk to her. Very, very funny. Yes. I also rewatched the scene where Larry proposes to Marian underneath a perfect canopy of trees. And after our interview with Harry, we found out that they shot that entire scene on a sort of lazy Susan, a spinning stage. And I found that so fascinating that I hadn't noticed that when watching it the first time. So you really do have to go back and you know, now you'll never not be able to notice that they are turning. The background is turning during the entire proposal. Well, this season on the show, we have done more interviews than ever. As anybody who's been listening or watching the show knows, there have actually been 21 interviews in which 24 people have been interviewed. It has just been such a pleasure to talk to all of the creative talent that produced the Gilded Age and to get that up close. Insider backstage knowledge of how they made it all happen. But of course, that is a lot of material to work into our episode. So unfortunately, some really choice bits ended up on the cutting room floor. So now is our chance actually to put some of those bits back into this show.

[Alicia Malone]

I love that. So what would be your choice of clip from an interview that we didn't play? Something that ended up being cut. What are you picking?

[Tom Meyers]

I'm going to select a clip from our interview with visual effects supervisor Douglas Perver. Let's listen. You said having more people duplicating people or replicating them in the church. Did you talk to us about that before in previous seasons, like at the Academy of Music shots or the Metropolitan Opera House?

[John Carafa]

Absolutely, yeah. The crowd duplication is such a huge part of our work whenever we're doing big scenes like that, because it's just impractical to get a thousand people in costume, makeup, all of that stuff. So, yeah, the Opera House was another big crowd duplication moment last season. Academy of Music the season before. This season, we've also done it a lot in the baseball game, which is also in episode five, where we were shooting out on Long island again in a park, and we just did not have enough people. And all the reference that we looked at saw these lines of people all the way around the field. It was not like the stadiums that we're all used to kind of seeing with the seating. It was more of a. It was more of a park outing. So people are lined along the field and then there's picnics happening and people sitting in their carriages and all that kind of stuff. So we had to create a ton of people. I think we were supposed to have 200 people that day, but I think only 70 something showed up. And it was a big bit of a scramble on the day, but we knew that what we had filmed. And then if I was able to film additional elements on our backlot of people in the proper costume, we'd be able to create that crowd later. And so that's what we did with our talented in house team of artists. We kind of took that. That scene in house and just plugged away at it for the. For the schedule of that episode.

[Alicia Malone]

That was a really fun interview. And, you know, one fascinating tidbit that we didn't get to include in our interview with costume designer Kasha Walika Mamone was about the design of the bridesmaids dresses at Gladys wedding. And so here she is telling us why they were.

[Bannister]

You know, it was also a very interesting discovery from research when we realized.

[Tom Meyers]

That a lot of the times bridesmaids.

[Bannister]

Wore white, which was kind of surprising because that's not very common in our contemporary understanding of bridesmaids.

[Tom Meyers]

All the bridesmaids were identical.

[Bannister]

I remember the first shock of everybody is realizing that they are going to be wearing white because they look like bridesmaids. And when Marian walks down in her dress, she looks like a bridesmaid.

[Tom Meyers]

But.

[Bannister]

But then the discovery happens that all of them are in identical dresses.

[Alicia Malone]

We were so lucky with our guests this season. And we have new interviews coming up after the break. But before we get to that, I just want to have one more topic, which is further reading and watching because, you know, if you're not ready to say goodbye to the Gilded Age just yet and you want to explore more in your, dare I say, journey with this period of time in America, we have some books and some movies to recommend. So, Tom, do you want to start with some books about the Gilded Age that you would recommend for our listeners?

[Tom Meyers]

Absolutely. I have six right off the top of my head that we have used throughout this entire season. The number one choice is the glitter and the gold, the American Duchess in Her Own Words by Consuelo Vanderbilt Balson. This is the actual source material, folks. This is Consuelo's own memoir of her life. And she goes into great detail about her engagement and then the wedding and then what happens afterwards, which we won't talk about now because who knows what's going to happen on the show. The second, closely related, is the book Consuelo and Alva the Story of a Daughter and a Mother in the Gilded age by Amanda MacKenzie Stewart. I think that this is important because she kind of tells the rest of the story right. She uses Consuelo's memoir, but then she also digs through other archives and uses newspapers to tell the whole story, including bits of the story that Consuelo didn't want to get into. So that's another important one to read. Third up would be Society as I have Found it by Ward McAllister, the book that really did come out and really did partially lead to his downfall in Society. It's really kind of fascinating sometimes and tedious at others, but it's important in understanding, you know, the bigger picture here. Another great memoir is King Lear and the Gilded Age by Elizabeth Drexelaer. This is another bit of source material that most people when they're writing Gilded Age history books use because she was friends with Alva, she was friends with Caroline Astor. She was right there. And she was also stuck in a terrible marriage that she felt like she couldn't get out of. So she takes you inside the balls and the different places. A much more modern book is Greg King's book A Season of the Court of Mrs. Astor in Gilded Age New York, which is just like the textbook about Gilded Age history in New York City. I refer to it often. It's a wonderful, super engaging read that I think anybody would enjoy. And finally, Carla Peterson's book, Black A Family History of African Americans in 19th Century New York City. We have used Black Gotham here on the show for the past three seasons. It is a fascinating read, often underrepresented, really important, and I'm so glad that it is used as source material in the Gilded Age. So those are my six books. What about your movie list, Alicia Malone?

[Alicia Malone]

I have several, but I'll try to keep it brief. The first is quite obvious, Age of Innocence. You could go classic and watch the 1934 version if you like, or you could watch the 1993 version directed by Martin Scorsese. This is based on a book by Edith Wharton, who was part of the New York City society during the Gilded Age. So she used a lot of her personal experiences as inspiration for her books. And I just love the fact that Martin Scorsese, who was very known for his gangster films, found correlations between gangster world and the world of the Gilded Age society, saying that they both had to live by a strict moral code. And if you don't didn't comply with that code, you would be killed or in Gilded Age case, ostracized from society to go with that. Another recommendation based on another Edith Wharton book is the House of Mirth. This was filmed several times, but I choose the version from 2000 starring Julianne Moore. And this really shows just how detrimental it could be as a woman to be cast out of society. A different take on the Gilded Age is the magnificent Ambersons from 1942, directed by Orson Welles. This is not set in New York, it's set in the Midwest, but it does show the kind of rapid changes that were happening during this time in America. In the podcast we mentioned director Joan Micklin Silver, who directed Crossing de Lancie. She also directed a film called hester street in 1975. And this stars Carol Kane, and it shows the immigrant story during the Gilded Age about a Russian family coming to America during that period of time. And then finally, there are two versions of a Henry James novel. That novel is Washington's Square. You could watch the heiress from 1949, which is my favorite version, directed by William Wyler, or Washington Square from 1997. But this shows the story of a wealthy woman who's pursued by a fortune hunter who, Tom, is not unlike our favorite Oscar. Very similar. So those are some recommendations. I could go on and on, but that'll get you started.

[Tom Meyers]

Well, Alicia Malone, you could do this for a living.

[Alicia Malone]

I should think about that, shouldn't I?

[Tom Meyers]

I have to say, it's been a blast doing this show with you. The past three months we've been on this.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I've really enjoyed talking to you. I always learn from you, Tom. But we're not going to say goodbye just yet because we're just going to go to a break. And then when we return, we have more fresh interviews with Kelly O', Hara, choreographer John Carafa, and medical consultant Dr. Stanley Burns. Back soon. I think if Mrs. Russell means to.

[Bannister]

Challenge convention, we should take her part. One evening at the head of the table and you're ready to change the world. You do have a dress, don't you? I've got the dress. I'm just not sure I've got the nerve. Mrs. Russell is making such an effort for you, but she can't control the looks I'll get when I enter the ballroom. We shall all enter the ballroom together.

[Tom Meyers]

What?

[Bannister]

If Aurora can be brave enough, then so can we all.

[Tom Meyers]

And Aurora can be brave enough. Welcome back to the official Gilded Age podcast bonus episode. I'm Tom Meyers, joined by my friend, Alicia Malone.

[Alicia Malone]

Hello. And you mentioned Aurora Fane. And we realized during this season that one person we haven't talked to that we really wanted to was Kelly o', Hara, the amazing actress who plays Aurora Fane. So we got that chance. Here she is, Kelli o'. Hara.

[Tom Meyers]

Well, Kelli o', Hara, it is so nice to have you on the official Gilded Age podcast. Welcome to the show.

[Bannister]

I'm so excited to be here. Absolutely.

[Tom Meyers]

You are, of course, no stranger to the Broadway stage, to the Metropolitan Opera, to television. Can you tell us what the Gilded Age and what the role of Aurora Fane brings to you or means to you?

[Bannister]

Sure. I love playing Aurora Fane. I think the Gilded Age is one of the greater gifts I've been given in this long journey of a career. It's just there's so many of my friends, so many of my heroes. I'm in a room with them. Yes, Aurora serves a lot of tea and, you know, and says there's lots of niceties, but at the same time, I just. I gain so much from doing it. I really do. I really enjoy it. I love the team there. They've brought together a great group, crew, cast, creatives, everything. And it's just been really a positive experience in my journey.

[Tom Meyers]

And journey is exactly the word that we've been using throughout this season, because there have been so many journeys that several of the characters go on, but especially Aurora. And, you know, when you compare her character's arc and storyline in seasons one and two, I mean, this season, there was just so much more. Can you talk about that journey that Aurora's been on in season three?

[Bannister]

Yeah. You know, I had a very nice conversation with Julian just after season one, and we were talking about sort of what direction Aurora would go in, but he talked about this idea of wanting to highlight the difficulty, especially for women in this era of choice. Well, and here we are again. But let's not get into that. The difficulty of choice and the fact that it wouldn't even be your idea or your wish to be divorced, and yet you're the person who has to do the divorcing. Aurora was kind of. She is the picture of someone trying to do everything right, but also, there was just a tiny bit of her that was curious about the other side. You know, I always felt like I was crossing the street when people didn't quite know it, and I love that about her. And. And I was very pleased when he said, and I think it's going to be Aurora who tells this story for us. And there were things historically, factually going on that have to do with divorce. Aurora is one version of it, and then there's another version of it, and we have to see how it affects different people's lives. And so I was very happy. I was very happy to have the storyline. Now, Kelly, I talked to Sonja Werfeld a lot about this. It's like, can't I, you know, punch him in the face? Or can I, you know, and we're talking. You're talking about this woman in the late 1800s. You can't think like a 2024. This is, at the time we had this conversation woman. You have to really tell the story in order for the impact to be made. And so I am. I want to show the devastation of what it would have done to a woman at no fault of her own. And so that's what I'm trying to do.

[Alicia Malone]

It's been heartbreaking to see her go through this. And Charles was so cruel to her as well. So I'm curious what your conversations with Ward Horton were like in doing these scenes together.

[Bannister]

Well, first off, you have to understand that Ward is the kindest man that ever lived. I mean, he is just the sweetest sweetheart. And we were very excited to have sort of some juicy scenes. But I think he hated playing this. He hated having to. With no sort of no reasoning in his. You know, it's just he met someone else, period. You don't really get to choose all the wise. But I think that it's been hard for him because it's a very evil type of thing to play. And I think his just stillness really made it so. You know, lack of empathy, lack of regret. And that's exactly what we need to say. Poor Aurora. But just so you know, Ward Horton, he's not comfortable with any of this.

[Tom Meyers]

And there have been, as you said, every season so far has brought up and sort of surfaced some of these stories that get, you know, that are overlooked right in the normal curriculum in the schools. And speaking of Newport, I noted when I was thinking about Aurora's journey this season that. But Aurora showed up for Peggy's lecture in Newport. So Aurora is also. She has a progressive streak to her, doesn't she?

[Bannister]

Kelly has very specific thoughts about Aurora. However, when I talk to the director or anybody, like, they're like, no, just play it. Like you don't. But I think that it's more interesting, that progressive streak, that one that goes over to the Russell house when. And you know, the Van Rhijns would not appreciate that in season one and season two, going to the new Opera House meetings, hosting Oscar Wilde, involving myself in Oscar Van Rhijn's love life, I feel like that's who I think Aurora is. And it makes me very proud. Now she's in a time where all of that's hidden and she's not using a loud voice about it. But I love her because of that. I love her because she wants to know more and educate herself more and evolve. And when I saw the script that I go to this talk that Danae gives, not only did I get to hang out with Phylicia Rashad and Brian Switz, Mitchell and Audrey Donald and Danae all day, not only that, but I was also just that of all the characters in the show, Aurora showed up for that. I feel like there must be an underlying idea that she is more open, more curious than some.

[Tom Meyers]

But you do have the audience on your side. Right? I mean, you know that the viewers love Aurora Fane. And I'm thinking of Bertha Russell, who, you know, it seems that we're seeing a new side of Bertha as well as she comes over to support you. Yeah.

[Bannister]

You know, I think about it this way. Obviously, we've seen someone like Bertha be able to be strong in a way that we women today hope and think that we want to be right, that we are. And I think that even though we're telling a period story, you can have that character that represents a bit more of what was probably actually going on then, too. And so I think as an actor, as much as I'd like to say, you know, f off, you know, I deserve better than this. And because that's what I'd want to say in real life, I have to play the part I'm playing in an ensemble, you know, and the more you feel for Aurora, the happier and grateful you are to our leading lady, Bertha Russell in our show. And because we've seen what she did to her daughter, we really need her to. That side of her needs to come out that is just and fair and strong and something that we can hold onto. So I see what my job is, that catalyst for someone to come in and save the day. And selfishly, I'd want it to be myself. And creatively, I'm happy to play the part I can for her.

[Tom Meyers]

You're bringing up all of these cast members, so many of whom are also amazing Broadway performers and singers like yourself, operatic singers, in your case. Who do we have to talk to to get a Broadway, like, at least one musical number, you know, at some point in some season here.

[Bannister]

I know. You know, it's when we were open, you know, kind of presenting the new opera house idea, and there was the one scene with the opera singer. I'm like, I want to get up there and do the aria, you know, that kind of thing. I think that.

[Tom Meyers]

That.

[Bannister]

I'll be honest, I think that would be so much fun to get this cast together and have some sort of Carnegie hall night where we come out in our whole get up and do some sort of big thing. I think, however, on the show and within these storylines, I think it gives most of us great pride that we're doing dramatic acting without, you know, breaking into song. There is a thing where, you know, if you're in musical theater, and obviously you have Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon and Nathan. You know, you have all of these really fantastic singers, but proven dramatic actors. But I think for the rest of us, who probably have lived quite a bit of time going, I'm not just a musical theater singer. You know, I'm not just a singer. It is a nice thing to just tell the story as the character of Aurora. And I think, you know, something that would be more interesting to me is Aurora goes to some saloon and she's a really bad singer. I'd like to play that.

[Alicia Malone]

That would be.

[Bannister]

You know, because it's. Yeah, it's the acting that is the fun part. It's the being. What you don't do is. That's the fun part about being an actor.

[Alicia Malone]

One moment that viewers especially loved this season, which I'm sure you heard about, was when you said, very convincingly and heartbreakingly bedecked myself in these gigaws, which made me think that that's an advantage of having a theater actor. You know, you have to do Shakespeare or opera and really sell what you're saying, even if it's not in your native vocabulary with the emotion. Would you say that's correct?

[Bannister]

Absolutely. So the gee gaws. It's so funny. I have never had such a response about anything. In fact, just someone yesterday said, oh, don't wrinkle those geekaws if you're gonna sit next to, you know, whatever. Cause I was wearing a dress.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. I didn't even notice it because you played it so well. It just sounded so natural coming out of your mouth.

[Bannister]

How strange. When I bedecked myself in these geekaws. I was looking forward to your coming home. Little did I know. Well, I do play a lot of period things. I mean, I had to say enamorata and gee gas in the same scene. So that was both of those. First of all, I was like, what in the heck's an inamorata? First of. And then Gigas. And Gigi's was also a version of that. That was in the script. I had to look those up, especially in an emotional scene like that. But I guess you don't. Yeah. You can't make fun of anything. You have to mean it. Right.

[Tom Meyers]

When you just said gee gaws. I heard Aurora Fane's voice there for a second. Yes. Can you talk about finding that voice like we're hearing Kelly right now, which sounds like Aurora's cousin. Maybe. But where's the voice?

[Bannister]

I feel like probably because I'm from the south, by the way. And so I just. I lost this a long time ago, but I don't know why, but I. I think when I went to art school and then acting school, somewhere along the way, you and. And Christine Bransky, having been from, like. I think she's from Rochester or something.

[Tom Meyers]

She.

[Bannister]

She completely, I think, built or has a different accent. The way she speaks. She. She told me one time, I've never tr. A certain way. I probably just wanted to speak sort of in the middle somewhere so that you can then go get a British accent for. But I don't make myself. This is how I speak. I. I never tried to lose my Southern accent because when I drink or I'm tired, it definitely comes out. Or if my mom called, you know, my dad calls me on the phone, it's right there. But I think that Aurora is only a tiny bit more mid Atlantic. I never wanted it to sound artificial or fake or too grand and, you know, too. Because you don't want to go British. I think some people lean. They get so mid Atlantic that all of a sudden they're saying, I can't go. You know, and you're like, oh. So it's. It's. I didn't want it to be that way. I wanted it to be sort of benign. But also, you know, she's upper class, and it's fun. But I do think there's a balance there. I've only heard a couple of times. You know, we have a dialect coach, and he's always trying to get me to open my, you know. Marian. Marian. Marian. I would never say Marian. You know, I'd say Marian. And so it's little tiny tweaks like that. But it is my voice, I think. But she's just more. She's just a little bit more proper. You know, she's just talked like that a little bit. And she's more soft spoken because she's trying to be polite, and I'm not like that.

[Alicia Malone]

Kelly, thank you so much for joining us. It was great to meet you.

[Bannister]

You, too. Thank you. Thank you for doing this.

[Alicia Malone]

Kelly o', Hara, just as delightful as you would imagine her to be. She was great.

[Tom Meyers]

She was. Well, we're not done yet because we also had a chance to go behind the scenes of that opening scene of episode 8, the Emergency Medical procedure on George Russell. In fact, we sat with a medical consultant and ophthalmologist, Dr. Stanley Burns, to talk about how he worked with the team.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, Dr. Burns, it's such a pleasure to meet you. And you are so fascinating. Both Tom and I went down a rabbit hole reading all about you because in addition to being an ophthalmologist and a research professor, you also have the world's largest collection of early medical and historical photography. So can you tell us a bit about your collection?

[Servant]

I've always been a historian since childhood. And when photography became available in the 1970s, as soon as I found that out, I sold my other collections, which were historic arms and quite valuable. So I was able to, within a couple of years, acquire thousands of really great photographs. And my collection really is focused. So I was only interested in photographs that other people did not have. In other words, I wanted the one of a kind images. And so for that, I collected daguerreotypes, ambrotypes, tintypes, and then, of course, photograph albums, which are specific slices of history that were kept by an individual or institution.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, yeah, you're a curator, historian, professor, doctor, and also an author and also a medical consultant for television. Because in addition to working on the Nick, you also advised on the surgery scene with George Russell at the beginning of episode eight for the Gilded Age. What kind of research is involved when you are consulting on a scene like that? Do you use any of your photographs?

[Servant]

Well, I not only use my photographs, also my book collection. In the 1970s, 80s, 90s, if you wanted to write extensively about a topic, you had to go to the library, stay at Xerox Machines. So Xerox. But you must remember that I was a practicing ophthalmologist. So I did eight hours of ophthalmology work a day and then eight hours of historical work a day. And that's been my life ever, ever since. So I acquired the book collection, and we're talking about 5,000 volumes of historic medical books. So I could just go up to my library. And so that's how I did my research. I would look up a book, for instance, on obstetrics. I'd have books on obstetrics from 1790 up until the mid-1970s. And that's how I did all my topics. So I just stayed at home and worked because my office and my practice and my collection was in one place. I could work at all hours of the day. There was no transit time, just going up or down stairs.

[Tom Meyers]

So take us into the this episode or the final episode of season three of the Gilded Age, where George Russell has been shot and he has rushed back to his own home to be operated on for the bullet to be removed from his body. In what capacity then were you consulted and what did you do to find. How did you find information that would be relevant to this scene?

[Servant]

Well, first of all, I've been writing about that scene for 48 years.

[Tom Meyers]

Wow.

[Servant]

In a way, because Civil War wounded soldiers were my initial topic and I've written a book on it, and I have the original collection of Civil War wounded soldiers and how they were operated on. So I had the pictures of surgery in the photographs. What's very interesting, when you write something up, you do not write up the fine details. You don't tell them what color shirt you wore today or what your background is to where you are. I mean, your curtains, the color of your walls. But when you have the photographs of the period, you can see what people are dressed, how they were dressed, their demeanor, the demeanor of the people around them, and exactly what they were doing. So photography supplemented the written word by supplying detailed information you would never get from a book. And so you can only find that out from a photograph. So all the books in the world do not help you write a really. Well, it helps you write a detailed history, but it doesn't help you show a detailed history. And that was the distinction of my collection, that I could show it because I had the visual images. And so for that scene with George, my inspector was shot, I've done that history many, many times. The idea of the show, it's in the perfect years. It's 1884, 1885. And that's when surgery began to change. The problem is that in that era, just as you said, the doctors wanted to take the bullet out. But in those days, they usually stuck fingers in. And the washing or unwashing of hands was dictated by the hubris of the doctors. Doctors were still using unwashed hands. And this was just at the time, 1884, 85, when aseptic surgery was being developed, which was the idea to clean everything. But so at the time, it depended upon the doctor who saw the patient. And of course, doing it at home, you know, going to a hospital was not on the top of anyone's list in that era.

[Tom Meyers]

Also, that was not just for discretion, because we were con. You know, we were speculating that perhaps he was not raced to the hospital because he wanted to keep it out of the papers. But this sounds like it would not have been really unusual for him to go directly home.

[Servant]

He would go directly at home. Ten years later, he would go to a hospital because there wasn't anything special for emergency surgery at that time. So, yes, he would be treated at home and you'd get enough people there in order to be able to perform the surgery. Now, a few years later, when they had asepsis technique rather than antiseptic technique, Antiseptic technique is really using chemicals, carbolic acid and solutions like that to dip your instruments in, to wash your hands, to dip your wound dressings in. Just a few years later, it was sterilization that count. You had to sterilize your instruments by boiling them. You had to have heat sterilization of dressings. So then you would have brought them to a hospital. But in this area era, you could do your surgery at home, which was often preferred because when you went to the hospital, you had to worry about spreading and the contagiousness of infection. So that was the right thing.

[Alicia Malone]

We saw George having some laudanum, or however you say it. And that was a type of opium. Right. Which I imagine was very addictive.

[Servant]

Yes. Well, the number one drug addict of the 19th, late 19th century were civil War wounded soldiers. Obviously they had to pay for their wounds. The number two was middle class women because you could go to your drugstore and get all of the opium that you wanted.

[Tom Meyers]

In this scene we also see the Russell's family doctor, Dr. Logan, come in a little bit late to the scene. Dr. Kirkland has already performed the operation, but he's surprised to see that there's a black doctor there. I have read about your incredible collection of African American photographs. Could you tell us about that and also about the photographs that you have of medical professionals.

[Servant]

I'd like to show you one picture if I can. And it's of an African American. You can see that he's the lead person in this picture.

[Tom Meyers]

And the doctor is African American.

[Servant]

Yes. And so when you have something like this, this was not, by the way, in America. This was also at the turn of the century. I have another one I'll show you. And there's no doubt that he is a lead surgeon.

[Tom Meyers]

This is photographic evidence of African American doctors being in positions.

[Servant]

Yeah. Being the boss in the operating room, Being the boss of the. Examining the patient and showing the pathology. And so this is all the evidence you need, all the words. I could write it. You wouldn't believe it if you lived in Georgia or Louisiana or Alabama in 1900, that the lead doctor was an African American physician. And this was one of the. This was the main direction, as you know, we took in doing the nic was the fact that we had the evidence that African Americans, physicians, surgeons in Europe could attain an important place in medical culture.

[Alicia Malone]

And when you see the photos it really drives this home in a way that, as you say, reading it doesn't quite do it justice. Do you feel the same way when it comes to television, being able to show this stuff on television that people might not know about? In terms of early medical history?

[Servant]

No, we think visually. And so if you see it on television, it's believable.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah.

[Servant]

Because that's what stays in your mind. And so that's why in the Nick and in the Gilded Age, I tried as accurately as possible to put the visual memory in the right perspective. And it was. It was with the insult of the white doctor coming in to see a black doctor doing medical work on 60th street in Fifth Avenue. Very difficult, but really interesting to show.

[Tom Meyers]

I have to just ask, you know, in this scene, we see this emergency operation, like we said, on the dining room table, and it becomes a kind of all hands on deck moment. Right. Where we have the neighbors showing up, we have the staff that's around helping hold him down. Would that have been true? Like you said, it was just anybody around who would pitch in to help out the surgeon in a moment like that. This.

[Servant]

Yes. This was not the time of aseptic surgery. This was get all hands on board. They needed someone to hold someone down, to make sure that they wouldn't move, even when they did anesthesia. Sometimes they would do anesthesia lightly so that you wouldn't feel pain, but that you would still feel things so that you would move around. So holding someone down was really a common aspect of surgical procedures at the time. Unless you had full anesthesia, and I think it was chloroform anesthesia, that was quick, which took about nine minutes, but ether was about 17 to 20 minutes. So you have to put that timeframe in. You have to know how to use it, and you have to know how not to kill the person from the anesthesia.

[Tom Meyers]

Well, we're certainly happy that Dr. Kirkland pulled off this surgery with George Russell, and I think it's likely with a bit of your help. Dr. Burns, thank you very much for joining us. Dr. Stanley Burns, on the official Gilded Age podcast. Thank you.

[Alicia Malone]

Thank you.

[Servant]

Well, thank you. It was a pleasure.

[Tom Meyers]

Wow. Just a fascinating conversation. I think we could have spoken to him for hours.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes. He's such an accomplished man. He's published 51 books and apparently only sleeps four hours a night, which makes sense because where else would you find the time to do all that work? But now, Tom, we have another fascinating interview with a key behind the scenes feed who worked prominently on the Finale episode of the show. Here is choreographer John Carafa.

[Tom Meyers]

John, it is so great to meet you because you have been doing this series. You've been the series choreographer on the Gilded Age for all three seasons. We are so, so happy to finally have you on the show.

[Dr. Stanley Burns]

Thank you so much. It's just lovely to meet you two. After hearing you for three seasons, it's.

[Tom Meyers]

Been fun to watch your work. I mean, at the end of season one, right at Bertha's Big Ball, we got to. To see the quadrille that you're. That you choreographed as well.

[Dr. Stanley Burns]

That's right. And you also got to see me play Mr. Vaughn, the dance teacher for Gladys. And yeah, you know, the previous episode, they show them practicing and I say, remember everyone, the quadrille is not a romping dance.

[Alicia Malone]

That's right.

[Dr. Stanley Burns]

And that leads me into like what you might find interesting about this one, which was there was a dance teacher and a sort of a, you know, dancing master named Alan Dodworth whose school Gladys would have gone to. And that's where they would have sent all of their young, you know, pre ingenues to go learn the proper etiquette. Not just dance, but also, you know, which side does a man stand on? A lady when he takes her arm. How do people ask one to dance at a ballroom? So many great lines about the man shouldn't face the woman directly because of the potential for bad breath. And, you know, and mostly still holds true today. Yeah, mostly things about how not to be overly zealous or indelicate when you dance. Mostly about the same things that you know about all the other etiquettes in the show.

[Tom Meyers]

Everything was proper and so this was all written down. You were reading these instructions because that brings up the question of just how do we know today? How do you know in 2025 what people were dancing like in 1884?

[Dr. Stanley Burns]

Exactly. That's the first question everybody asks. And of course there's no video or recordings of any kind. So you know, what's really interesting is Gladys would have gone to this school and. And the young people would have gone to this school to learn. The wealthy would have gone to this school to learn. But of course the lower classes wouldn't have been able to go. So Alan Dodworth and another guy, I think his name is Hargrave, wrote books that were disseminated around the country to show people like, this is how you behave. So of course people would aspire to be like the upper classes read the books. And the books were very detailed, specific instructions about how to you know, where to place your feet, how to hold each other, and that, you know, that leads you to. I mean, we'll get into the other community and their dancing, but that's another way that the black community would have learned these dances. Anybody could get the book.

[Tom Meyers]

You know, I'm thinking about the fact that on this show there are so many, obviously, Broadway actors, including a lot of people who dance. So does that make your job as choreographer a little bit easier?

[Dr. Stanley Burns]

It's interesting because every show I do, there's this clear delineation between the stage actors and the film and TV actors. And sometimes the film and TV actors are pretty good. The stage actors are always good. I mean, Kelly o' Hara and Donna Murphy have both done Shall We Dance in the King and I, so they know a good wall. Nathan Lane. Those guys are used to learning dancing, but other film actors aren't necessarily asked to do that. They might be really good at it, but often it's a new skill for them to learn.

[Alicia Malone]

Absolutely. Well, I was reading an interview with you where you were saying actually, you don't want the dancing to always be perfect. So sometimes actors can be nervous about dancing, or sometimes they can be really good dancers.

[Tom Meyers]

But.

[Alicia Malone]

But you like to add in moments of imperfection to kind of make it feel more real. Is that right?

[Dr. Stanley Burns]

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because when I do something set in the present, it's really all about individual expression. And I often tell people, you know, go look at any wedding party, everybody isn't doing the same thing. You know, you might have some guy doing disco to Radiohead or, you know, anything goes, because it's really all very personal and very expressive and very free. This world is all about showing that you belong in this society. And it's exactly the opposite of that. It's about adherence to the rules and the conduct and the manner in which a person behaves. In this class of society, unlike a lot of shows where I'm asking people make fun of the dancing or take liberties as if you're doing something you feel like you shouldn't do, so they don't look like they're doing something at choreography gave them to do. In this instance, it's really about being as specific as possible. But what's ironic about that is even when people are trying to do the exact same choreography, they will have their own style. So even though I'm teaching people to be really precise about the kind of waltz they do, and the waltz in this era is a bizarre form of dancing, it's not like everybody's like, that's the waltz. You don't. You can't tell on camera. But the footwork of it is very unusual, and it's very specific for a reason, which I'll tell you about. But even though everyone is doing the exact same movements, they've been taught the exact same thing. People will have their own style in it. So I don't have to do the thing that Alicia, that I usually do, which is to try to find people's personalities. It's why I like to work with actors so much, because. Because dancers are trying to be good, trying to do it a certain way, trying to be technically correct. Actors are being themselves. You know, they can't help it on camera.

[Alicia Malone]

Do you also think about their individual characters when you're choreographing? Do you talk to them about how their character would dance?

[Dr. Stanley Burns]

I'm teaching them the dancing as if I'm Alan Dodworth, actually, and letting them. The key for me in this show is to get them free enough so they can act at the same time they can dance. And sometimes they have to talk while they're dancing. The Duke and Gladys have some dialogue while they're dancing. It's really hard for these tricky dances that they've just learned to be able to act and have emotion. Sometimes you don't need to. But they should look like this is in their bones. They should look like this is something they grew up knowing. And on top of that technique, they can and do a scene. The tricky thing, the reason that the waltz is so tricky is because it's built so that the woman never moves backwards. Because if you think about it, their dresses drag on the ground. They have trains. If they step back where they're going to step on their train. And so the woman, the way the wall, the way the steps are created, everybody's going forward as they dance. Nobody. You know, if you think of your classic Viennese walls, there's like this swooping back and forth and swooping around this. If you look at it and you know who does it really nails it. If you look at Danae and the first man, Raymond Baynard, who asked her to dance, when they begin, it's like, ah, they nailed it. Like, that's the perfect 1884 waltz. This is what's really interesting about it, because when we started this, I was so excited about the whole idea of the Black Ball. I'm like, oh, my God, I have never seen that on camera before. And I would say to. I said to Sally, like, I've never seen that. She's like, it exists. And I'm like, yeah, I know, but. But I've never seen that depicted ever in television. Like, I've done a lot of different kinds of things and I've seen everything when it comes to dance and choreography on film. But this kind of elite, upper class black community depicted in dance, it's like, wow. But everybody asked me, I was like, first thing is like, wow, what's the difference gonna be? And Suzanne. And there's another researcher, Sally Subber. And we also Talked to Erica, Dr. Dunbar. And everything led us to the fact that it was gonna be the same, that people were gonna be doing the same dance, because they were all emulating Europe, right? They were all emulating the fashion and the customs and the manners of Europe. So it was stunning to me because I had imagined we were gonna be cutting back between these two very different things. And so to differentiate it, you know, the thing that we really got clear about or the thing that was most important to me in talking about the dance was that, you know, the society, it showed that you belonged when you did these things properly. The black community had even more of a reason to be vigilant about really obeying the rules and showing that we freaking belong. We are part of this world. And they were tough on each other if people. Even tougher if people were not following the proper decorum, the, you know, manners. The difference that I, for myself, when I was working with them and I, we talked a lot about this with the dancers, is that it was aiming a tad more reserved and a tad more stately and a tad more proper. And we're, you know, and if you look at it more than once, you'll see like, oh, yeah, they're just being. And. And I let the. The white ball be a little looser. And you'll see like, they actually are getting more into like, the waltz of the 1890s and, you know, the Viennese wall, the later walls, and took liberties. You know, they're having a blast. They're, you know, and the white, the black community is just like, we are the cream of the crop, you know, so that. That was, for me, that was the most interesting part of this whole thing that they were going to be the same.

[Alicia Malone]

And I know you also think about the dance scenes as being storytelling devices, right? Like a way to push the story forward. So what did you think about in terms of Peggy's ball and the story that the dance was telling?

[Dr. Stanley Burns]

Sometimes you have the research and sometimes you want to capture the elements of the era. What I built was something between a quadrille and a waltz. And so it has the patterns of a quadrille. It's like, oh, they're doing these interesting patterns. Because, you know, the quadrilles were, like, complicated, and everybody knew them. Right. So I took the idea of a quadrille, and I. I built waltzes that would have patterns like a quadrille. So it made a nod to. If you look at them, they're doing these, like, little flower pattern. Interesting patterns. Like, oh, well, they're not all doing the same thing. They're not all just waltzing. What's going on? You know, there's different. There's an outer circle and there's an inner circle.

[Tom Meyers]

Almost like a kaleidoscope.

[Dr. Stanley Burns]

Yeah.

[Tom Meyers]

In terms of, like, where. Of course, as I'm watching it, I'm thinking that you're also shooting Bertha's ball at the same time. But of course you're not.

[Dr. Stanley Burns]

Right. A month before. So that was in December. And then in January, we shot black ball. But we had a huge bank of storyboards because the idea was, how are we gonna cut back and forth between the two balls? And Sally had a really specific idea of, like, we would go off of this draft onto that dress. And some of it's still in the. In the cut. And some of it she decided to do in a different way once they actually cut it together. But we were spending a lot of time at one ball thinking about how we were going to cut into the other ball. And I was thinking about, how is this pattern going to turn into that pattern? And just a subtle difference between the two.

[Tom Meyers]

And how do you keep the energy up on the set? I mean, in the final scene, it needs to look like it. It's all full energy. And it's the first time anybody's done anything.

[Dr. Stanley Burns]

I love these dancers so much, and I'm glad you asked that. Cause I wanted to talk about the dancers a little bit. What you might know, if you're a very astute watcher of the gilded Age, is it's the exact same dancers every time we do any dance scene. And it's to the point where they've created characters for themselves. They know who they are. I actually wrote down some of the names. Cause I think I asked them. It's like, what are some of your character names? They're just so.

[Alicia Malone]

So they came up with them themselves.

[Dr. Stanley Burns]

Yeah. Oh, names, backstories, the white ball. Some of the names are Norman Gresty. That's Alex Norden May Worthington, Susanna, Vivian Kensington. And they have elaborate backstories for themselves. And then the. The black ball. They were so excited about the history, you know, because we give them a history packet. The dancers, you know, when we do this, just so they can really know it. And the black dancers just embrace this whole idea and we're so excited about it from the beginning.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Well, you do a wonderful job. So, John, thank you so much for joining us. It was really interesting. Fascinating.

[Tom Meyers]

Wow. What a fun conversation and a nice way to wrap up the season here. Talking to John about the dedication on behalf of the dancers and performers and how they, you know, so many of them have come up with Personas to help them get into the mood. They are also, like, loving the history of this show.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, it's so hard not to. And Tom, you know, we can't belabor this anymore, unfortunately, that is the end of our podcast for season three at least. So I was trying to drag it out for as long as we could, but we can't. And, you know, I have to say that if you watch the podcast or you listen, you will see or hear Tom or myself. But Tom, there are so many people who made this podcast happening.

[Tom Meyers]

That's absolutely right. We have a whole team at HBO podcasts and a team at POD people who have made this happen every week. And we've been working on the show for months. So thank you to that whole wonderful team of people. We are like a family at this point. And I'm really. I think we're both gonna miss everybody. It's been a wonderful. It's been a wonderful journey. Alicia Malone.

[Alicia Malone]

It has been a wonderful journey. We'll have to just do zooms where we can just pretend that we're talking about the show. And we also want to than thank all of you who have listened to this podcast or watched the podcast. I know, Tom, you've gotten a lot of feedback from listeners who have really enjoyed the show and the podcast this season.

[Tom Meyers]

I have. I've gotten wonderful emails from people. I've gotten even stopped a couple times on the street from people who are listening and who want to talk about it. But it has made a real impression to me of just seeing the dedication of the viewers of the show. And I think that that speaks to obviously the show itself and the incredibly talented artists who put together the show, from the head writers all the way down and all of the actors and all of the artists behind the scenes working on sets and makeup and costumes. You know, I think making the show is really wonderful because we get to know a little bit more about what goes into the show and really appreciate it and appreciate their level of artistry. So thank you, thank you to the creators as well of this wonderful TV show.

[Alicia Malone]

The show has been really supportive of this podcast as well. And okay, that's it. We have to say goodbye. So thank you so much. Let's just keep talking for joining us this season. Thank you, Tom. It has been a real pleasure.

[Tom Meyers]

And thank you, Alicia Malone. It's been a wonderful pleasure working with you as well and even talking about the Gilded Age off camera just on our own. We can't stop. So thank you for your, your artistry as well.

[Alicia Malone]

Of course. And thank you. And we will be back next season. Woohoo. With more Gilded Age. Thanks for listening. Bye.

[Tom Meyers]

This has been the official Gilded Age podcast, written, hosted and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers.

[Alicia Malone]

The podcast is a production of HBO in collaboration collaboration with Pod People.

[Tom Meyers]

For Pod People. Our supervising producer is Rebecca Chassan, associate producer Sam Gabauer and our video editor is Susanna Vasquez. Special thanks to Hannah Pedersen and Amy.

[Alicia Malone]

Machado for HBO Podcasts. Our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt and associate producer is Erin Kel.