“What the Papers Say” with Carrie Coon, Morgan Spector, and Michael Engler

Summary

The Official Gilded Age Podcast: “What the Papers Say” with Carrie Coon, Morgan Spector, and Michael Engler

Release Date: June 30, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled “What the Papers Say,” hosted by Tom Myers and Alicia Malone from HBO’s official Gilded Age Podcast, listeners are treated to an in-depth discussion of the second episode of Season Three of HBO’s acclaimed series, The Gilded Age. This episode features insightful conversations with cast members Carrie Coon and Morgan Spector, who portray Bertha and George Russell, respectively, as well as executive producer and director Michael Engler. Together, they delve into the intricate narratives, character developments, and historical accuracies that shape the series.

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Episode Recap

Tom Myers opens the discussion by summarizing the plot of the episode:

“...the Russell house is in turmoil as Ms. Gladys, an heiress, disappears in the middle of the night...” ([03:40]).

The episode showcases a frantic search for Gladys, revealing the opulent yet volatile environment of the Russell household. Alicia Malone highlights the cinematography:

“I love the cinematography of this opening montage because they use wide-angle lenses... It looks like a photograph almost” ([04:22]).

The narrative then shifts to George Russell’s business dealings, where he meets with JP Morgan to discuss a risky new railroad venture amidst an impending economic panic. This interweaving of personal and professional crises underscores the complex dynamics at play.

A pivotal moment occurs when Bertha Russell confronts the Duke about Gladys’s arranged marriage:

“...As Mrs. Carlton says, I regard it as a lucky escape” ([29:33]).

The episode culminates in an awkward dinner where tensions between characters reach a boiling point, setting the stage for future conflicts and alliances.

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Historical Parallels

The hosts draw parallels between the show’s storyline and real-life events, particularly the marriage of Consuelo Vanderbilt to the 9th Duke of Marlborough in 1895. Alicia Malone explains:

“Consuelo was deeply in love with somebody else... Alva Vanderbilt had other plans for her daughter” ([13:38]).

They discuss the Dollar Princesses, American heiresses who married into European aristocracy, highlighting the transactional nature of these unions:

“These marriages were definitely transactional... Wealthy families in America wanted social prominence, while European titled families sought financial support” ([17:02]).

This historical context enriches the viewers' understanding of the social maneuvering depicted in the show.

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Character Analysis

Bertha Russell emerges as a central figure in this episode. Carrie Coon provides insight into her character’s motivations:

“Bertha wants the best for her daughter, but her ways are questionable...” ([36:13]).

Morgan Spector adds depth to George Russell’s character, portraying him as a man torn between familial obligations and business ambitions:

“George is in an impossible position... there's no good choice...” ([45:19]).

The dynamic between Bertha and George reflects the broader themes of power, legacy, and societal expectations, illustrating how personal desires often clash with public responsibilities.

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Production Insights

In the latter half of the episode, hosts engage with Carrie Coon, Morgan Spector, and Michael Engler to uncover behind-the-scenes elements:

• Directorial Choices: Coon discusses the use of wide-angle lenses and crane shots to emphasize the grandeur and underlying tensions within the Russell household.

• Set Design and Filming Locations: Spector reveals that scenes set in Morenci were filmed on Long Island, utilizing backlots with Western-style sets complemented by additional footage from New Mexico to create authentic landscapes.

• Character Development: Engler emphasizes the thoughtful crafting of characters, ensuring their actions and motivations resonate with historical accuracies while maintaining dramatic tension:

  “Bertha's ambition is driven by her desire for power and influence, not just for herself but for her daughter's future...” ([37:44]).

The collaboration between the actors and production team ensures that each character’s journey is both compelling and true to the era.

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Themes Discussed

Several overarching themes are explored in this episode:

1. Power and Legacy: The dialogue between Bertha and Mrs. Carlton about ancestral ties to the Declaration of Independence underscores the importance of legacy and social standing.

2. Women's Agency: The forced marriage of Gladys parallels historical instances where women had limited control over their personal lives, despite their significant societal roles. Carrie Coon reflects on the duality of Bertha’s character—her ruthless ambition and underlying nobility.

3. Economic Turmoil: The consultation with JP Morgan highlights the fragile state of the railroad industry during the Gilded Age, mirroring real historical economic challenges.

4. Social Prejudices: The episode touches on racial prejudices and the limited opportunities for African Americans, as seen in the character of Dr. Kirkland and his role as one of the few black physicians of the time.

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Notable Quotes

• Tom Myers on George’s dilemma:

  “He is caught in the middle between fulfilling his promise to Gladys and respecting his wife's plan” ([45:50]).

• Carrie Coon on Bertha’s ambitions:

  “For Bertha, what she wants and cannot have for herself is power, influence, impact” ([37:44]).

• Morgan Spector on the legacy:

  “There is something about legacy... whatever you need to tell yourself, it's all good” ([39:57]).

• Michael Engler on the complexities of directing:

  “Once the technical details are out of the way, the more interesting conversations happen about what's really going on in the stories” ([34:10]).

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Behind the Scenes with Cast and Crew

The latter portion of the podcast features a compelling interview with Carrie Coon, Morgan Spector, and Michael Engler. They discuss:

• Character Evolution: Coon elaborates on how living in a meticulously crafted set and adapting to historical behaviors has enhanced their portrayal of Bertha Russell.

• Working Dynamics: The chemistry between Coon and Spector is highlighted, with both actors emphasizing the challenges and rewards of depicting complex familial relationships.

• Production Challenges: Engler talks about maintaining consistency with multiple directors and ensuring historical accuracy, especially regarding set design and dialogue.

• Historical Research: The team underscores the importance of extensive research to authentically represent the societal norms and challenges of the Gilded Age, drawing from sources like Consuelo and Alva Vanderbilt by Amanda Mackenzie Stewart and Consuelo Vanderbilt’s own memoir, The Glitter and the Gold.

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Conclusion

“What the Papers Say” serves as a pivotal episode in The Gilded Age series, weaving intricate personal dramas with broader historical narratives. Through insightful discussions with the cast and crew, the podcast episode sheds light on the meticulous craftsmanship behind the scenes and the profound themes that resonate both in the 19th century and today. Listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the show's portrayal of ambition, legacy, and the relentless pursuit of power amidst societal constraints.

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Join Tom Myers and Alicia Malone next week as they continue to explore the depths of The Gilded Age with more interviews, behind-the-scenes insights, and historical facts. Don’t miss out on the rich storytelling and engaging discussions that bring the opulent yet tumultuous era to life.

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This summary is based on the transcript provided and aims to capture all key points, discussions, insights, and conclusions from the podcast episode.

Transcript

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[Morgan Spector]

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[Morgan Spector]

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[Tom Myers]

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[Morgan Spector]

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[Tom Myers]

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[Morgan Spector]

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[Carrie Coon]

But she won't have chosen the man she married.

[Alicia Malone]

Plenty of people who have a free.

[Morgan Spector]

Choice live to regret it.

[Michael Engler]

Foreign.

[Tom Myers]

Welcome back to the official Gilded Age podcast, where every week we dive into the stories and the history behind the HBO series the Gilded Age. I'm Tom Myers from the Bowery Boys podcast and I am joined as always by my friend Alicia Malone from tcm. Hi, Alicia.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, hi Tom. Sorry, I just happened to have this TCM branded mug just standing by. Anytime you mention tcm, out it comes. But it's so nice to see you again and I'm excited to delve into episode two because episode one was a lot jam packed full of setup. We had, you know, the introduction of themes that we started season two we had introduction of new themes. And now in this episode we get a little bit of an idea of where we might be going.

[Tom Myers]

We had an heiress on the run when we last were on the show. So I mean, where, where are we gonna go from here? Yes, there's a lot happening already in that first episode.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and a lot happening in this episode too, because we got to sit down with Carrie Coon and Morgan Spector, who play Bertha and George Russell. Carrie Coon is a hoot. Had so much fun with her. And then we also talked with the executive producer and director Michael Engler, who's become something of a friend to the was his third time on the podcast.

[Tom Myers]

But first, I think you and I need to talk our way through episode two of season three, which is entitled what the Papers say, written by Julian Fellowes and Sonja Warfield and directed by Deborah Campmire. Well, the episode begins over at the Russell house where there is just quite a commotion, Alicia, because Ms. Gladys has disappeared in the middle of the night. And you know, everybody from the downstairs staff is frantically running around the Russell's house yelling out Ms. Gladys, Ms. Gladys, you know, and looking for this heiress on the run. And I don't know about you, but I actually kind of enjoyed this chance to look into these rooms, to see these rooms empty and sort of, you know, there's a long hallway shot we got to see in the dining room. Kind of look around these beautiful rooms in a way that we haven't before.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, exactly. I love the cinematography of this opening montage because they use wide angle lenses which allows us to really look at these runes and see them in their full form. There is that beautiful shot of a staircase with the servant sort of looking down, peering around. It's composed so well, it looks like a photograph almost. And then that crane shot, I'm sure every director loves to use a crane. And here it starts with Adelheid running next to the stairway. She comes down the stairs, open up, big sweeping shot and all of the main stuff meet her at the bottom of the stairs. Just. It's a beautiful moment to start the episode.

[Tom Myers]

When they get to the bottom of the staircase, you know, everybody's kind of like who's gonna tell Mrs. Russell? And clearly nobody wants to tell her. I wouldn't want to tell her that Gladys is missing. It seems though, it all falls onto Larry's shoulders who wakes up his mother. And before we know it, Bertha is over at the Carltons house where the lovebirds have, well, been waiting for her rather anxiously. Gladys, by the way, is wearing a fabulous feather in that cap as she waits for her mom. And well, they're telling themselves that they're going to be very strong.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and that does not last long because straight away Bertha tells Gladys to get in the carriage and wait for her. And Gladys caves pretty quickly. I guess you can't get in the way of Bertha when she is determined like that. And we have a moment between Mrs. Carlton and Bertha where they're each talking about their daughter and their son and this possible love match. And Mrs. Carlton says she's going to pull rank and out she pulls. The fact that her family is connected to the Declaration of Independence. She says our great grandfather signed the Declaration of Independence, which I imagine would have been a big deal.

[Tom Myers]

Oh, that would have been a major deal. And I think that people would have pulled rank. I'm very happy that Mrs. Carlton pulls rank. Mrs. Carlton, played by Broadway star Victoria Clarke. It's a fun scene. I was rooting for Mrs. Carlton there. But, yeah, I think this is something that really would have happened because, I mean, to have an ancestor who was an actual signer of the Declaration of Independence was a big deal. Right. And who was Mrs. Carlton talking to? She was talking to Bertha Russell, whose ancestors came from where? Again, you know, this is something also, by the way, this kind of rank is something that we saw in Agnes Remind Marian of in season one, where she says, never forget that you are descended from the Livingstons. Right. Also signers of the Declaration of Independence. So people flaunted this. I think this is very true. And Bertha here just has to deal with it. And I don't know about you, but I kind of. I thought that Bertha was like, laughing in Mrs. Carlton's face, right? We see her laughing.

[Alicia Malone]

She's not impressed at all by the Declaration of Independence. I think it speaks to the fact that Bertha seems. Seems to be so entranced by the English way of life, the European way of life and their titles. She's more interested in a duke than the Declaration of Independence. America is old hat to her. And George arrives back home. He immediately goes into a meeting with JP Morgan, who warns George that the timing is bad, the risks are enormous for his railroad. The panic is coming. So let's talk about the real JP Morgan and his connection to the railroad business. Because I was reading how he actually helped to keep several rail lines alive following the panic, and he ended up being a major player in that industry.

[Tom Myers]

He was, yeah, he was a major player in that industry and in other industries, some related, others, you know, banks, et cetera. He had a lot of power because he had a lot of knowledge, inside knowledge of how particular businesses worked. And he acted on all of that knowledge and made himself very, very wealthy. And case in point, in the 1870s, he actually helped sell off a lot of shares of the New York Central Railroad, the Vanderbilt's line, and in the meantime, put himself on the board of directors of that railroad. So he had firsthand knowledge of what was going on with that railroad, but he was also involved with other railroads who were, quote, unquote, competitors. So that's how Morgan operated. He was able to sit on boards, merge companies together, create what we might call monopolies or trusts. This, you know, he made things more efficient in order to limit competition and make things more profitable for these companies.

[Alicia Malone]

So it makes sense that George would be turning to JP Morgan for support if he was in the real world.

[Tom Myers]

Absolutely. Because Morgan was actually concerned about the overdevelopment of the railroad industry in the 1870s and the 1880s, you know, factors that led to the panic of 1884, that really did happen. So he was concerned that these companies were taking on too much debt. And here we have, you know, George talking to Morgan about this grandiose new plan, which sounds very, very expensive.

[Morgan Spector]

I have a vision, a railroad that will transform this country and perhaps the world.

[Carrie Coon]

An illusory vision.

[Morgan Spector]

I want to connect all the major cities of America to create a continuous line from New York to Chicago and then from Chicago to California without 10 stops along the way. It can be done.

[Carrie Coon]

Perhaps, but you say it too easily. This will be a feat to rival Moses parting the Red Sea. You think you have a problem getting round Morenci? Wait till you start trying to rearrange Chicago.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, wait till you start to rearrange Chicago, Alicia. So this thing that George is talking about building was new. It was a coast to coast rail line that got there without a bunch of stops along the way. And that would also have been extremely expensive to build and there would have been so many obstacles and it was very, very risky. And as Morgan points out, it would take more money than he knew George Russell had.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And JP Morgan said that he will do what he can. And George is very focused on the rewards. Right. Big risks, but big rewards. Meanwhile, George doesn't only have his business to worry about because he steps right into the middle of a fight between Gladys and Bertha. Gladys wants him to essentially protect her from her own mother. And we get an idea of Bertha's scheming, the depths she's going to go to in order to organize a wedding between Gladys and the Duke. There's an announcement in the paper that seems to say that. That this engagement is all but a done deal. We see that the Duke is coming for another visit and they're going to be staying at the Russells. And meanwhile, George is a little unsure about Bertha's intentions, isn't he?

[Tom Myers]

And a little unsure about how all that information got in the papers too. Which brings us back to the episode's title, what the papers say. Because did you notice there's a lot of newspaper reading that's going on in this episode, people? You know, Larry's reading upstairs, the staff is reading downstairs. Somehow that information is getting leaked to the press about the Duke's visit.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. So now, Tom, I think it's finally time for us to start to dip our toes into the true story that inspired this whole Gladys and Duke arranged marriage plotline, and that is the marriage of Consuelo Vanderbilt to the 9th Duke of Marlborough. And I'm so confused by the Vanderbilt's family tree. I keep looking at it being like, okay, wait, that does Cornelius's happening. There's a lot of Williams happening in this family. But basically Consuelo was the daughter of Alva Vanderbilt and William K. Vanderbilt, and she was the great granddaughter of Commodore Vanderbilt. And from what I've been reading, Alva was just a completely domineering presence in Consuelo's life.

[Tom Myers]

And Alva raised her daughter, Consuelo really, you know, to be a sort of first class heiress, you know, who would proved to be irresistible to European aristocracy. And by the way, if you find the Vanderbilts confusing in terms of family lineage, wait till you get to the Dukes of Marlborough.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, boy.

[Tom Myers]

It's also a bit confusing.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, he's the ninth. It's very confusing. But at your suggestion, I've been reading the book Consuelo and Alva Vanderbilt by Amanda Mackenzie Stewart, which I have to say is a great read, completely fascinating. It's all about the relationship between Alva and Consuelo, using her wedding as sort of a centerpiece and perhaps the old example of how Alva treated Consuelo as her living doll, living in a dollhouse, doing exactly what she wanted her to do. And I've also been reading Consuelo's own memoir, the Glitter and the Gold, which is also very interesting and one that you told me about.

[Tom Myers]

And it's nice when you're reading the Glitter and the Gold, to also read other accounts, because there are, of course, some things that Consuelo, much later in life, didn't want to include in that memoir. But it is amazing and often cited as a firsthand source. Right. Source material for this story. And I am really happy that this story is being folded into this episode. There is a little bit of poetic license being taken here just in terms of timeline, because at the time of our story here, we know that we are in 1884, as we have discussed, but in 1884, Consuelo would have been seven years old. But the real life marriage between Consuelo and the Duke of Marlboro took place in 1895. So 11 years later.

[Alicia Malone]

Okay, got it.

[Tom Myers]

But that aside, there are just so many interesting parallels in the story that we're seeing on screen here, starting with the fact that Consuelo was in fact, deeply in love with somebody else.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, the real life Billy Carlton.

[Tom Myers]

That's right. In real life, his name was Winthrop Rutherford, and he was at least as socially prominent as Mrs. Carlton. He could have pulled rank, actually, on Mrs. Carleton because Rutherford's ancestors also went back to a signer of the Declaration of Independence. And there was also the first governor of Massachusetts. He was even descended from Peter Stuyvesant himself, the last and the greatest of the directors of New Netherland. So, I mean, that's some rank to pull.

[Alicia Malone]

That is. And, you know, being a wealthy heiress, Consuelo had many proposals over the years, all of which Alva turned down on her behalf without even consulting her. But it sounds like Rutherford would have been a good prospect for her.

[Tom Myers]

He would have been. But it seems that Alva had other plans for her daughter. But there is something else, Alicia, and I don't want to get too far ahead of our story here, but earlier in the same year, in 1895, earlier that year, Alva had divorced her husband, William K. Vanderbilt. And many historians speculate that had Alva just let her daughter marry another New York socialite, well, that wouldn't have done much for Alva. But setting her daughter up to marry a duke, I mean, that would be a very effective way for Alva to maintain her spot at the top of society, despite the fact that she had caused a scandal following the divorce. In March of 1895, Alva took her daughter abroad, took her to for the social season in Paris, and then up to London, and, you know, I mean, with the intention that Consuelo would meet the most eligible bachelors in European aristocracy at the time. Well, Consuelo and the Duke had actually met the previous year in 1894, when Consuela was touring Paris and then London, and then they dined next to each other, but nothing came of it. But the next year, in 1895, at a ball in London, the Duke asked Consuelo for several dances, and they were off. Alva's plan kicked in, which needed a.

[Alicia Malone]

Lot of money to keep up, right? To survive.

[Tom Myers]

And where was he gonna find that money?

[Alicia Malone]

Money.

[Morgan Spector]

New.

[Tom Myers]

And then Alva invited the Duke to come and stay with them back in Newport that summer. So he was invited back, and he accepted that invitation and, you know, prepared to come back that summer to Newport and stay at the Vanderbilt Marble House. And. Yeah, the whole thing was followed obsessively in the newspapers.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, yes, because Consuelo's marriage was the most famous of the arranged marriages that happened during the Gilded Age. But by the time that she wed, this was not A new idea, you know, wealthy heiresses from America marrying into titled English European families. They were even given a nickname, weren't they? The Dollar Princesses, which is a term.

[Tom Myers]

That strikes me as a bit demeaning. But there was something undoubtedly transactional. Right. About these relationships. In most cases, these wealthy families wanted social prominence, and the titled families in Europe, well, they wanted the cash, often, to keep up these huge estates.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And this had been happening for a while.

[Tom Myers]

That's right. Several of these marriages actually predate Consuelo's marriage to the Duke in 1895. One that I will mention was Jenny Jerome, who was born in Brooklyn to a wealthy Brooklyn family in the 1850s. And she ended up marrying Lord Randolph Churchill, which made her Lady Randolph Churchill. And in, by the way, 1874, she gave birth to a son, Winston Churchill.

[Alicia Malone]

The future Prime Minister of England. And as played in movies by actors like Gary Oldman and Richard Burton, that's where I get all my history from.

[Tom Myers]

Let's see that tcm. Let's see that cup again.

[Alicia Malone]

You can see those movies on tcm. But it's interesting to me that Alva essentially forced her daughter to marry a man that she didn't love. That seems quite regressive on her part. And yet Alva was a leading figure later on in the suffrage movement. So my question is, do you think Alva realized that Consuelo marrying the Duke was a rare opportunity for her daughter to actually get some power in this world, or was it about getting power for herself? I mean, I guess this is the question we have about Bertha, right? Like, what are the motivations here?

[Tom Myers]

Right. This is the question we have about Alva. It's the question that you're reading about in these books. It's the question that we're watching on the show. I mean, whose power is it? You know, it's pretty clear that Gladys is going to have power if she does get married to the Duke here. But, I mean, what about Bertha? What do you call the mother of a duchess? Alicia. One lucky woman.

[Alicia Malone]

That was a really good line there. Piece of dialogue. Well, all throughout this episode, we see how George is kind of stuck in the middle between his wife and his daughter. This is causing conflict between husband and wife. And there's a great scene earlier in the episode where Bertha likens his business to hers. Her business being marrying Gladys off to the Duke.

[Carrie Coon]

I just want to know when I.

[Morgan Spector]

Get a say in our daughter's life.

[Michael Engler]

The day I'm in your boardroom giving you my ideas on the railroads. And the steel mills until that day. I won't question your business if you don't question mine.

[Alicia Malone]

Bertha is quite ruthless in this episode, isn't she? She is determined to make this happen, determined to get her way and does treat it like it is her business.

[Tom Myers]

Well, it was a business, right. And of course there had always been some kind of business aspect to dowries that were paid out in the event of marriages. So in a sense it's not a new concept. I think what bank it new now in the 1880s is with these dollar princesses is that we're talking about vast fortunes, right? Bigger fortunes than had ever been seen in Europe or in the United States. And these fortunes were being leveraged to secure marriages between these rich daughters and these titled aristocrats. I mean, this was new.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, plenty more to come on this whole topic, I'm sure, as we delve more into the series. But let's jump back to 61st street where Dorothy and Arthur Scott arrived, see their sick daughter and there's a moment where Dorothy is unsure about going through the front door.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. There is a quick standoff between Arthur and Dorothy here. And you can see that Dorothy is primarily concerned about getting in to see her sick daughter. But Arthur's principles would just not let them go through the servants entrance. And he points out that he's been invited. Right. Fortunately, somebody comes and sort of clears up the situation right away.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes. A Dr. Kirkland arrives. New character alert.

[Tom Myers]

Ding, ding, ding.

[Alicia Malone]

He's played by Jordan Donnica. And he goes up to see Peggy while Agnes talks to the Scots. And Agnes is still shocked about her doctor refusing to see Peggy. And Arthur simply tells her, you're a wise woman. You know how the world works.

[Tom Myers]

I love how we see. We saw it in season two, but we're seeing it again. We're seeing Arthur push the envelope a little bit and it makes his wife, it makes Dorothy very uncomfortable. We see she kind of gives a strained smile, right. And Pat sort of taps his knee a little bit like here, here, honey. And I think that Dorothy tries to take a smoother approach with Agnes.

[Michael Engler]

Your attitude is not what we are.

[Alicia Malone]

Used to, especially on fifth Avenue.

[Michael Engler]

I'm sorry to hear that.

[Tom Myers]

But you know it to be true. Maybe, but it is not how we were raised.

[Michael Engler]

We were brought up to be well mannered towards everyone. And that is what I believe in, simple good manners. I agree.

[Tom Myers]

I'm not convinced good manners will prove.

[Alicia Malone]

An effective cure for two and a.

[Carrie Coon]

Half centuries of slavery.

[Tom Myers]

To her credit, I suppose, I mean, Agnes Responds with a no, I suppose not, you know, right away, but that's a sort of tense exchange. It had me kind of on edge because Dorothy had been trying to avoid a conflict. Right. But not Arthur. And he seems to take direct aim at Agnes's kind of empty niceties, you know, especially when he said, when did you feel the urgency?

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, he's not gonna let her off the hook. And Agnes's reaction reminded me of a scene in get out where the white character says, I would have voted for Obama for a third time. It's like Agnes is progressive in some ways. For this time, she hired Peg kind to the Scots, but she cannot comprehend the type of prejudice that the black community faced constantly.

[Tom Myers]

I think that that is what exasperates Arthur. Right. Because it is her ignorance that ultimately put his daughter's life at risk. And it seems like he's having a hard time forgiving her for that.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And Dr. Kirkland is upstairs taking care of Peggy. I was wondering how common black doctors were at this time, because I imagine it must have been incredibly, if not impossible for black students to be accepted into a traditional medical school.

[Tom Myers]

Right. And as we touched on last week, up until this point, medical care and medical education were segregated. Up until 1868, only a handful of northern medical schools admitted black students, but it was not common. In fact, it was in 1868 that Howard University in Washington, D.C. established a medical school expressly for the training of African American doctors. Other schools would soon follow suit. But I do want you to consider this. In 1895, there were only 385 black physicians in the United States. 385. And only 7% of them had graduated from white medical schools. So the vast majority of them went to one of these all black medical schools.

[Alicia Malone]

We also have to talk about Larian for this week. We need our larian update. There was a big update this week. Steamy kiss alert.

[Tom Myers]

Ding, ding. Yes. That was gutsy, huh?

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah.

[Tom Myers]

I mean, kudos also to Larry. He must be a New Yorker. He spotted that cab down the block. I actually had to rewatch the scene twice to sort of see exactly what happened there. Did you see? So the driver gets out with the lady, and he's carrying her boxes, and he just notices that the back seat is available. So he just leads her over and they go for it. That was gutsy of him.

[Alicia Malone]

But also, it was great to see that Larry has finally decided to include Jack in their business meetings about the clock. And he takes Jack to get himself a new suit, also teach him the ways of being a gentleman.

[Tom Myers]

That's a cute scene, too. And now we know that Larry doesn't show a lot of handkerchief when he wears a suit.

[Alicia Malone]

Let's talk about this YWCA benefit that Aurora held at her house. Firstly, what was the ywca? The Young Women's Christian Association.

[Tom Myers]

That's right. It was an organization that started in England and then moved over to the United States in the late 1850s. It became known as the Young Women's Christian association in 1866. And its purpose was to address the various pressing needs of women, you know, especially those who were joining the workforce during the Industrial Revolution. And of course, it's still around today. In fact, it's active in more than 100 countries.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, Laroa didn't want to cancel this benefit, so she pretended that Charles was sick. But then who comes walking in the door?

[Tom Myers]

But, yep, Charles walks right in with the bell party, I think we hear. And of course, notably with a Mrs. Lipton and Mrs. Astor's eyes in the scene. Say it. All right. She looks kind of disgusted. Right. As she sort of takes it in. And it sinks in that she has been lied to. Right. And that there is something going on with Aurora Fane's marriage.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And Charles, once again, was needlessly cruel, telling Aurora that of course he brought his mistress there because we go everywhere together. It seems like he is really trying to force her hand to file for a divorce. But I was really happy with Agnes in this scene because when he referred to her as Aunt Agnes, she says, I'm not your Aunt Agnes anymore.

[Tom Myers]

And she's fuming. I mean, you see her, like, shooting. What is it? Poison darts from her eyes. I mean, she is mad at her nephew. And honestly, what was he thinking? Is he, like, just clueless?

[Alicia Malone]

Well, there was a lot happening at this party. John Adams is there, and he says to Oscar that he still cares for him and he wants to help Oscar out of what Oscar calls his innermost circle of all hell. He decides to give him money to invest and restart his own business.

[Tom Myers]

I like their chemistry. I love the scene. I like the way that John smiles at Oscar and says, don't pout. Right. It's cute. He also professes his love to him, which would have been extremely bold for one man to do that to another in 1884. But that is great. I'm all for it. It's great. Speaking of bold, we also have Mrs. Carlton at that party who approaches Bertha one more time to try to persuade her to just, you know, Let. Let the kids have a chance.

[Michael Engler]

I do not know how many times I have to tell you this, Mrs. Carlton, but Gladys will not marry her son.

[Alicia Malone]

Isn't it out of our hands?

[Michael Engler]

Let me speak clearly. If you keep this up, Mr. Russell will see that Billy never gets another job, and we will disinherit Gladys.

[Carrie Coon]

You do that to your own child?

[Michael Engler]

What sort of a person are you? As a rule, I'm the sort of person who gets what she wants.

[Alicia Malone]

Ooh, Tom, I was shocked at this moment that she said she would disinherit Gladys. I don't know if that was just an empty threat to scare Mrs. Carlton, but I thought, wow, Bertha is really not holding back.

[Tom Myers]

She's ruthless. And, you know, and then we see the plan, Billy and Gladys plan sort of like kick in here. We see him walking down the hallway. Gladys is like, it's happening, it's happening. And she runs down and it's sad. I mean, he stands there at that door. He looks up, he sees all the titans of industry together in one room. And he feels very small and just kind of look down, looks down at his shoes and says, excuse me, you know, and sort of pushes through the crowd kind of defeated.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, it's sad for Paul, Gladys. I mean, she realizes as she sees Billy leave that he doesn't even acknowledge her. And Billy and Mrs. Carlton rush out of the party, which gives us our favorite line of this episode. As Mrs. Carlton says, I regard it.

[Michael Engler]

As a lucky escape.

[Alicia Malone]

What a ghastly gathering. Ghastly gathering.

[Tom Myers]

It was a ghastly gathering, Alicia. It was ghastly. I mean, like, that was a hot mess of a gathering. And it was a narrow escape for Billy.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I think whenever I go to a party that I don't enjoy, which honestly is most parties, I'm just gonna leave and say, what a ghastly gathering. And that all brings us to the last part of the episode where the Russells are waiting for the duke to arrive. And Billy comes back for one last scene. And he meets Gladys at the secret meeting spot, the servants entrance.

[Tom Myers]

Gladys, I'm a tiny cog in the wheel of industry. I cannot afford to challenge the people driving it.

[Alicia Malone]

No, he's not even going to try, Tom.

[Tom Myers]

No, no. He realizes that their love is, quote, no longer practicable. I was happy that he used the word practicable. It's the right word. But yeah, he is not the man that she needs him to be. And that is heartbreaking.

[Alicia Malone]

And that's the moment when the duke arrives with his lawyer which underscores the fact that this is all business and.

[Tom Myers]

Her look says it all. I mean, when he says to her gently, gladys, we have much to look forward to. She looks like she's seen a ghost. She is just like white.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, you can see that she's been crying. And there's a moment where it looks like the Duke is actually taken aback by how scared she seems. And you know, George at that moment also realizes the full extent of Bertha's ambition and that she has not, in fact, told him the full story about this.

[Tom Myers]

There's something here that's a little bit childish about Bertha. She's been playing, she's been caught and we're gonna have to wait and see if she still gets her way.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Did you see her face when she takes the Duke's arm into dinner? She truly looks like the cat that ate the canary.

[Tom Myers]

She looks like one lucky lady.

[Alicia Malone]

Lucky lady.

[Tom Myers]

That's right. Unfortunately, Gladys is frozen in fear and George is just as surprised as she is. Alicia, this is going to be one awkward dinner.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. So awkward. I don't know what the conversation will be like around that table. Not a lot of laughs, but hey, it was not awkward and we had a lot of laughs with our guests who are coming up next. How's that for a segue?

[Tom Myers]

That's right. After the break, we will be sitting down with George and Bertha themselves. Morgan Spector and Carrie Coon will be joining us and then we will discuss the show with Michael Engler who is an executive producer on the show and also directed many of these episodes. We'll be right back.

[Michael Engler]

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[Morgan Spector]

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[Alicia Malone]

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[Morgan Spector]

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[Carrie Coon]

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[Morgan Spector]

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[Alicia Malone]

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[Morgan Spector]

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[Michael Engler]

See for [e-mail].

[Tom Myers]

Welcome back to the official Gilded Age Podcast. I'm Tom Myers from the Bowery Boys Podcast, joined by Alicia Malone from tcm.

[Alicia Malone]

Hello again. And now we get to the fun part of the episode. Not that the first part wasn't fun talking to you, Tom, but really fun to sit down with Carrie Coon and Morgan Spector, who play Bertha Russell. And we've spoken to each of these actors individually over zoom, but this time we got to go to the press junket and sit opposite them. Well, Morgan Spector, Carrie Coon, so nice to see you in person this time. Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you.

[Michael Engler]

Thank you.

[Alicia Malone]

And we're excited to be back for season three. So I'm wondering now, you know, your characters really well, You've worked together for a long time, but do you still get surprised when you read the scripts?

[Carrie Coon]

Delighted.

[Michael Engler]

More than surprised.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah.

[Michael Engler]

Actually, you know what?

[Morgan Spector]

This season I did get surprised a couple of times.

[Michael Engler]

Uh huh.

[Tom Myers]

Mm.

[Michael Engler]

Yes. I feel because we've dispensed with all the exposition and now it's all just storytelling, which is fun. And also because we're welcoming in new characters now so frequently and we knew we were gonna get some real bangers off the Broadway. And so it was also thrilling to see who was gonna fill these shoes. You know, you're like Andrea Martin. You're like, of course it's Andrea Martin. It's just really exciting all around.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. The characters, you're into the characters. Three seasons in. I'm wondering if sometimes, like, does it seep into your off camera life at all? Are you like, yesterday we walked by 61st and 5th and we were like, hey, that's where it happened kind of. Right. Do you ever have those moments around town or does the show come up in your life?

[Michael Engler]

I would be divorced if it did.

[Morgan Spector]

I know it's not like these are not easy characters.

[Michael Engler]

I'm marrying off my daughter, she's only three.

[Morgan Spector]

Yeah.

[Michael Engler]

But I'm thinking about it. I'm projecting onto her as much as I can. I think if I lived in the city, I think I would feel that more. When I was working in the earlier seasons, when I lived in Brooklyn, I feel like I had those spontaneous encounters more. But I live outside the city, so it's more like a longing for the thing. And also places that we've been now working for years. We have such a routine when we go to Newport. We have our favorite restaurants in Troy. I have a relationship to New York that I didn't have before because of the places we go. Or I'll walk in. I remember walking into one of the houses in Newport going, oh, my foyer's better than that.

[Tom Myers]

This your foyer? My actual set.

[Michael Engler]

You know, it's like, mine looks like Grand Central Station was this tiny. So I have that sort of pride about my pretend house.

[Morgan Spector]

No, I did a photo shoot in the Frick the other day and walked in and was like, oh, this looks like our dining room. This is the real thing that we copied.

[Alicia Malone]

Like, not impressive anymore. Well, episode two in season three, we really start to get the sense of the depths of Bertha's ambitions for her daughter. So what do you think motivates Bertha? She says she wants the best for.

[Michael Engler]

Her daughter, but I think that's true. Yes, she does. Now, you can disagree with how she goes about it or what she thinks that means, but for Bertha, what she wants and cannot have for herself is power, influence, impact. Her sphere is very limited, and she does not want that for her daughter. Nor does she feel that her daughter's life will ultimately be fulfilling without that probability. And so she wants her daughter. Even though her daughter's not ready for it yet and claims she doesn't want it. She knows that, well, after 30 years doing the same thing every day, you might not feel that way. So she wants to keep those avenues open for her daughter to be a public figure, because that's what Bertha wants for herself. And she knows the world is not set up to take care of women. Women have to take care of themselves. They don't have the vote. They rely on men. They have to influence men to get what they need. And so she wants her to be in the upper echelon of society where she will be protected also and where her rights will be protected. And if she gets any rights, she'll be first. First in line for those rights. So I think Bertha's actually quite noble in her effort. And she does feel that. She doesn't feel that little Billy is gonna ultimately be like, a stimulating partner for her daughter who maybe, maybe, maybe isn't the person she sees in front of her. Maybe, maybe she wants more for Gladys and Gladys wants for herself. But that's what a mother wants as much as she can get, you know, and it also is in service of our business interests.

[Morgan Spector]

Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that it's possible that Bertha is perhaps slightly Blind to. Is the extent to which her own ego is pleased by her daughter's sense to British nobility. Because, yeah. I mean, one sort of imagines. Imagines that whatever freedoms she might enjoy as a duchess, she might also enjoy as, like, the child of the scion of, like, the richest family on the face of the earth. Just not splitting hairs or anything like that.

[Michael Engler]

But there's a. There's a.

[Morgan Spector]

No, there's a difference.

[Alicia Malone]

I understand.

[Michael Engler]

There's also an avenue to lift us even that much higher, which is what I'm.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. The mother of a duchess. A lucky woman.

[Carrie Coon]

That's right.

[Michael Engler]

Exactly. He gets it.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah.

[Tom Myers]

But Morgan, you're talking about, you know, maybe she should just be satisfied with what she already has. But that brings me to George maybe not being satisfied with what he has. Right. I mean, Clay says in the first episode, why do you have to do this risky thing? Why can't you just be satisfied with palaces in Newport and New York?

[Morgan Spector]

There is something fundamental about a company like George's that if it's not growing, it's dying. And so there is a need to continually find avenues for investment, especially in this era. And, yeah, I think the railroad. It was clear to people at this time that a transcontinental was inevitable. And the question was, who was going to get there first? And so, you know, the railroad was built long before there was actually a market for it, before there was a need for it. It was built chaotically and wastefully in real life because men like George just forced it on the world. And. Yeah, like, what psychological need is George filling? I mean, I do think there's just a fundamental will to power that drives him and drives Bertha, and they express it in, you know, in different spheres. But I do think that there is also a business case for trying to be sort of first market with something to control a transcontinental railroad. Because you're only going to build that so many times. And whoever really controls it is gonna have tremendous power. Yeah.

[Michael Engler]

Legacy. But just looking out for your legacy.

[Morgan Spector]

I think there is something about. There's something about legacy. Yeah.

[Michael Engler]

Just saying.

[Morgan Spector]

Whatever you need to tell yourself, it's all good.

[Alicia Malone]

Just saying.

[Tom Myers]

Does this feel like couples therapy? Yeah.

[Michael Engler]

Keep going on the end. At the end.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, George's ambition really takes us out of New York. And we were watching the scenes in Morenci and wondering, where did you film that?

[Morgan Spector]

Long Island.

[Alicia Malone]

Really?

[Tom Myers]

No.

[Alicia Malone]

No way.

[Carrie Coon]

Have you been to our backlot ever?

[Morgan Spector]

Have you been?

[Michael Engler]

No.

[Morgan Spector]

So, yeah, we shot it. We shot it there. It was really Fun. Did you get to see it?

[Tom Myers]

I did get to see it.

[Morgan Spector]

I don't know if you've ever been, like, in a Western, but, like.

[Michael Engler]

No, there's not yet.

[Morgan Spector]

I mean, there is nothing, nothing more Hollywood than walking onto a set that's got, like, that. We had, like, tumbleweeds and shit. It was like.

[Tom Myers]

I was like, wow, this is.

[Morgan Spector]

I have arrived. Like, we're really doing.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. At the shot of you stepping down into the dusty streets, the saloon with.

[Alicia Malone]

The swinging doors, it was just Hollywood.

[Michael Engler]

And then it's winter in New York then, isn't it? Isn't it? Jackson goes with the snowballs and the.

[Tom Myers]

Exactly.

[Morgan Spector]

But it was. It was hot. It was.

[Michael Engler]

Oh, yeah. You have to appreciate that.

[Morgan Spector]

And yeah, 61st street is like, you know, 200 yards from.

[Tom Myers]

Right. Sure.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, here we start to see that Bertha's ambition and George's ambition really starts to cause a rift with each other. There's a great moment in the where George says, when do I get a say? And Bertha says, when I come into your boardrooms. So I was wondering if you remember filming that scene or what it's like for you to play with this new dynamic between your characters.

[Michael Engler]

I remember feeling that that was really a truthful. I appreciated that writing so much because I think for a woman with ambition and nowhere to put it, that felt like a really truthful thing to say. It's like, oh, you want to have a say in this part? Well, then open the doors. Let me come into the boardroom. Felt like a very real. No, it is real conflict.

[Morgan Spector]

It is a real conflict. And my recollection is in that. In the scene, George kind of hears her on that.

[Michael Engler]

I mean, you're preoccupied, of course, but.

[Morgan Spector]

Well, and I will. I'm thinking about it now as we're talking about it. It is occurring to me that, like the risk that Bertha is taking with the stability of their family by pursuing this avenue with Gladys, George is also taking. Cause. I mean, he.

[Tom Myers]

With their business. Absolutely.

[Michael Engler]

To the.

[Morgan Spector]

I mean, it couldn't be higher stakes in terms of their business. And obviously, I mean, they. Yeah, he's risking making them all Penn. So, yeah, there is a certain amount of balance there in terms of the extent that they will go to. To pursue their various aims.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. It must be fun for you to play with those scenes as actors going toe to toe with each other.

[Michael Engler]

Yeah, yeah. Always fun when you have a good scene partner is always fun. I always look forward to my Morgan days, and I miss Morgan when he's not there.

[Morgan Spector]

Me Too.

[Michael Engler]

Yeah. You also usually get to really have dialogue scenes. Which is always more interesting to dig into the shape of something. You know, when you come to work, you hope you to really dig in a little bit. And I just always feel that. That. I mean, how much has really changed? I don't know, but I recognize, like, my own grandmothers, you know, and their abilities. My mother, very smart woman. She was gonna be a nurse or a teacher. Nothing wrong with that. But. But, you know, who knows what women would have. Would have chosen if they could choose. And so I felt that, really, emotionally, that that's, you know, that statement where we're allowed to be and, you know, how much has it changed? Where are we allowed to be?

[Tom Myers]

Right. And you wanted something bigger than little Billy, as you said, for your daughter here.

[Michael Engler]

I don't think he's gonna cut it.

[Tom Myers]

But there's a scene here, you know, between Bertha and Mrs. Carlton, you know, where you see Bertha possibly being a little reckless, too. I mean, you're saying that you would disinherit Gladys. You threatened to disinherit Gladys.

[Michael Engler]

And we've ruined people before.

[Tom Myers]

And to ruin Billy.

[Michael Engler]

Yeah, we threatened to ruin the other guy.

[Morgan Spector]

Yeah, that other guy, Archie. And now he's in the Hunger Games.

[Michael Engler]

Oh, well, he knows the best thing.

[Tom Myers]

We could have done for him.

[Michael Engler]

He really. You never know how it's gonna shape. Not so bad. Yes. I mean, yes, yes. You use what's at your disposal.

[Tom Myers]

Threats.

[Michael Engler]

Threats of disinheritance. Sure. And Bertha is really against this marriage. She does not think that this will lead to fulfillment for Gladys. She thinks it's gonna flame out. She thinks it's puppy love and that it's not going to be stimulating. And if Bertha needs anything, it's stimulation she's loved.

[Morgan Spector]

I will also say that I think Julian is on your side about the Billy thing.

[Tom Myers]

About the Billy thing.

[Morgan Spector]

He's not.

[Michael Engler]

He doesn't show up.

[Morgan Spector]

No.

[Michael Engler]

When he's asked to show up, he doesn't. So Bertha is right. He lacks some integrity there.

[Morgan Spector]

Yeah. There's something that she's intuiting about him.

[Michael Engler]

That is accurate and what Gladys is capable of. It's not all about shoehorning Gladys. It's also about, like. I want you to understand your capacity. You have more capacity than you believe in. In yourself. I don't know why.

[Morgan Spector]

God, that feels like something you should have said to her, if that's what you think.

[Michael Engler]

But, yes, you're right. I mean, we all have our limitations in communication with our family. Don't We.

[Carrie Coon]

True.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, at the end of the episode, you see Gladys sort of being led to dinner like she's been led to her death. George realizes that Bertha has not told him the whole story, and he's kind of caught in the middle between the two, isn't he? He wants to fulfill his promise to Gladys for a love marriage, but also respect his wife's plan.

[Morgan Spector]

Yeah. I mean, I think. I think George kind of sees the nuance of Bertha's position here a little bit, but is also. He's gonna have to watch his daughter's heartbreak in order to do this. I don't think. I mean, I have a female child.

[Carrie Coon]

I don't wanna.

[Morgan Spector]

I don't wanna watch her.

[Michael Engler]

I wanna break through her wedding.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah.

[Morgan Spector]

No, it's horrendous. And yet, I don't know the position. I think George is really in an impossible position throughout much of the season. It's not. There's. There's no good choice.

[Michael Engler]

It's true. You are in a very difficult position.

[Tom Myers]

Thank you.

[Morgan Spector]

Thank you. I appreciate you acknowledging that. That's nice.

[Michael Engler]

It's not easy what you're doing.

[Tom Myers]

And you've come back from Morenci to find, you know, the house. Really very argumentative.

[Morgan Spector]

Yeah.

[Tom Myers]

In uproar, Right? Yes.

[Morgan Spector]

She ran away from home. Yes.

[Michael Engler]

Rude.

[Morgan Spector]

Yeah.

[Alicia Malone]

Uncalled for.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. No.

[Morgan Spector]

But I think he comes back to find that he's needed and that he needs to weigh into this situation and mediate. And he's frankly not able to do it very effectively because I don't think he can decide really, where to come down here. The choice that he would have to make is really to say to Bertha, in order to protect Gladys, he would really have to say, no, you don't get to have what you want. This guy's going back to England. Forget it. I don't want to hear about it anymore. And he's just not willing to do that because I think he knows that Bertha wants.

[Tom Myers]

Would.

[Morgan Spector]

That would be it. Like the two of them would be. You know, she would. To defy her will to that extent would sort of break a compact between them.

[Michael Engler]

Right. And she would still be relentless in pursuit of it. Even then somehow, luckily, we could pursue.

[Morgan Spector]

It without a dollar in your little bank account.

[Michael Engler]

That's true.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah.

[Michael Engler]

But luckily, we have our golden child. Larry will just swoop in and fix everything when it goes wrong.

[Alicia Malone]

Saves the. Never fails. Larry, he just.

[Michael Engler]

Whatever job we throw him and he. He just shows up so good at it, we don't know why.

[Morgan Spector]

Real utility player.

[Alicia Malone]

It's amazing.

[Michael Engler]

And yet I won't let him marry the way he wants. That's fine.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, we love this season, so thank you both so much. Carrie Coom, Morgan Spector, thank you for joining us.

[Michael Engler]

Thanks for your time. Appreciate it. See you on YouTube and Spotify now.

[Tom Myers]

Wherever you get your video podcasting.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, can't do much better than that. Tom. Carrie Coon and Morgan Spector. What I loved about that interview was the fact that they were each, especially Carrie, so determined about their characters. You know, Carrie sees nothing wrong with Bertha's intentions for Gladys. She is all in with supporting Bertha. And meanwhile, Morgan was looking at her like, are you sure? Is she. She truly that way?

[Tom Myers]

Yeah, I. I love that they were all in. And it did feel for a moment there like we were in a couples therapy session. I mean, they were, like, smacking each other's arms and like they were fully invested, and I loved it. But speaking of invested, we're now going to be speaking to Michael Engler, who's an executive producer on the show and has directed many of the episodes this season and in previous seasons, to talk about what went on behind the scenes. Well, Michael Engler, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast for your third appearance. Welcome back to the show.

[Carrie Coon]

Three out of three. Yes. Three seasons. Happy to be here.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. It's so great to have you. And you are both an executive producer on the show, and you're also the director of many of the episodes this season. Can you remind our listeners what those two roles entail?

[Carrie Coon]

Well, as an executive producer, I'm involved in kind of aspects of the directing and production that affect all the episodes. So if we're gonna be casting a character who's gonna come in episodes, you know, I'll be part of that or building new sets or finding new locations and looking at kind of the things that will relate to more than one episode that say I am directing, it has to do with music. I work with the composers. I work with the visual effects supervisor on all those kinds of things because they take a long time and have to be conceived over a longer period than just one director.

[Tom Myers]

And we know that you also work very closely with Lord Julian Fellowes. You have for many years. And obviously here in season three, what is that relationship like?

[Carrie Coon]

You know, he's got his own voice. And so for me, it's working with him. It's a combination of just feedback on sometimes differences in how we say things or look at things or details. Being American, looking at the show versus, you know, looking at it from his point of view. And sometimes it has to do with just reconciling what he wants us to do and how we would do it in production. And so sometimes scripts need to adjust around those things. And so we'll talk about that in terms of how we would create some of these worlds that we have to really figure out, production wise, what we can achieve. So it has to do with that and then just kind of tracking the story and the characters and the information and giving him ideas of American actors who he doesn't know as well as we do. And just reacting to the stories, I think being another eye and ear for him on how things are reading, you know.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, even just watching two episodes, I feel like the actors now feel really at home with their characters, with their costumes on the sets. I'm wondering, what have you observed with them just stepping more into their roles?

[Carrie Coon]

I've noticed the exact same thing. Partly, I think it has to do with. At the beginning there was so much that everybody had to learn, all of us, about the life, the lifestyle, behavior, protocol, manners, diction and language and all of that kind of stuff. I think there were a lot of technical details that they had to absorb at the beginning. And now they just feel effortless. It doesn't feel like they have to do any work to do them. And I think also understanding where their characters fit in the world and what their expectations are and the reality that they live in from their character's point of view.

[Tom Myers]

I was astonished when Morgan told us that the Morenci scenes were shot out on Long Island. I was sure you were actually out in the.

[Carrie Coon]

Well, you know what all the scene work, all the things inside that little saloon and in the assayer's tent that comes later. And those kinds of scenes that was shot in a kind of green screen worlds environment that we set up on our back lot out in Long island, like right behind the 61st street set. And that was kind of great. And then we had a second unit go out and shoot some stuff in New Mexico that we then put together for the wide shots and for the mountains in the distance and that sort of thing.

[Tom Myers]

We were saying last episode that by starting that way, it's also a reminder in some senses that George's fortune stretches way out. It's not actually just based there in New York, right? There are people and there's a whole country out there and it's getting bigger.

[Carrie Coon]

We wanted to also just in this kind of subtle way, remind the audience that the Wild west and the Gilded Age are the same period. And the Wild west is where the money comes that pays for the Gilded Age. You know, it's logging and fur and, you know, all those resources, copper and the railroads and, you know, banking and investment. And so we thought that was a really nice way of kind of reminding us that actually Georgia's world has, you know, fingers that stretch out into all those areas.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, being a bit of a film nerd, I always love to watch how each episode begins. This episode, for example, which I know you didn't direct, but it starts with some striking shots of the staff running through the Russell house. Wide angle lens, a crane shot. And it seems to me that the opening shot is where the director gets to have a little bit of fun. Would that be true?

[Carrie Coon]

I think it's definitely true. We like to have in each episode the director find a way into the episode that reminds us sort of the bigger context of the world and also brings us into where the story begins at that point. So at this point in episode two, Gladys is missing. Gladys runs off at the end of episode one. That's the final shot. And so creating the intrigue in the house and how many people would know about it and the ripples that would get sent through the house before Bertha finds out.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. This episode was directed by Deborah Campmeyer, and her, along with Sally Richardson, Whitfield and yourself, seem to be the three main directors who direct the lion's share of the episodes. What's the advantage of having just a few directors rather than changing all the time?

[Carrie Coon]

I think it's true. On any show, it's good to have a little group of people. And it's also nice often to have new people come in and bring fresh ideas to it. But this show, there's so many technical details, historical information to absorb and to include and to understand in terms of talking to the actors that I think it's just. We found it's just easier to have people who've been through it and kind of been through the indoctrination program of the manners and the behavior and how clothes are worn and what happens at each time of the day in every house and how meals are served and all that, because, you know, once that's out of the way, then the more interesting, useful conversations happen about what's really going on in the stories.

[Tom Myers]

What has it been like working with Taissa Farmiga, who plays Gladys, on developing the role of Gladys?

[Carrie Coon]

Well, Taissa's an extraordinary actress, and I think she's finally being given. She's always had interesting things to do. But this season, in so many ways, has really driven by her story, or at least the first half of the season. And she just has such emotional complexity. And I think, you know, her maturity as a person allows her to play this character who is so immature, so naive, so unaware of really how the world works and has to learn it kind of at the center of, you know, all eyes on her. And so, you know, she just brings a natural race and curiosity and vulnerability to it that makes it incredibly believable. And I think kind of you worry for her because you understand on a certain level, she doesn't have the resources to take care of herself, to control her own future.

[Tom Myers]

And were you having conversations with Taissa around the Consuelo Vanderbilt story?

[Carrie Coon]

We all read about that story to different levels and we all talked about it. And I think that kind of research is really useful in just getting inside the period and the expectations. And I think a lot of us, you know, it's very hard today to understand the idea that a girl could be forced into a marriage. I mean, maybe you could understand it in medieval times or different kinds of other periods, but something so close to us. And I think what we really, really wanted to find in the scripts and with the actors is a believable path where she could legitimately feel like she had no other choice.

[Morgan Spector]

Like.

[Carrie Coon]

Like it was the lesser of two evils, you know, that her. Her life and her position in society and her options could well be ruined if she handled this badly. And that Bertha's maneuvering legitimately put her in a place where she had. I mean, of course she had a choice, but the other choice could have potentially been to ruin her life, her future, her reputation.

[Alicia Malone]

And even when you are allowed to make a love match, it also could mean the ruin for your reputation. As we see with Aurora Fane, it's nice to see Kelli o' Hara getting to also have a big storyline this season, and divorce is a big theme. What really interested you that was most about this subject?

[Carrie Coon]

Well, it's interesting because the season is so much about marriage and divorce and really that for both sides of that, for us, are really about the power of women in that society and the level of agency that they have in their own lives, and they're determining their futures, their families, and the choices they have so that it's not just a sense of anybody can do anything, which I think we have more that sense today. But really, given the choices you have, what is the best future you can make for yourself? And if you Decide to get married, even though it's maybe against your will or not the person you dreamed of marrying. Or maybe it is, you know, whatever sacrifices you make or decisions you make are going to have big ramifications in terms of your position in society. And it's the same with divorce at that time. It would basically erase a woman's position in society. It would remove her from that. We were all interested, I know primarily Julian, we were all interested in looking at that aspect of women's power and agency. And really the only sphere they had power was in the. The home or marriage and that kind of social sphere, as opposed to the business or political sphere. And so how they. The choices they had to navigate their positions versus their own happiness.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And even when it's not their fault, you know, they could also be ruined by divorce. In this episode, we see everything come to a head at Aurora's YWCA benefit. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on the. This ghastly gathering. As Mrs. Carlton says, there's a lot going on here, and I just felt so sorry for Aurora. When Charles brings his mistress to her party.

[Carrie Coon]

That's right. It becomes the final trump card in his play for a divorce, which is letting her know that even though she holds the card to say yes or no about whether she will sue him for divorce, he can destroy her socially. And in the end, that's the upper hand that he has. And I think, again, what's so brilliant about that scene, I mean, it's a long sequence, is that we're dealing with Billy Carlton trying to have a moment to ask for Gladys Hand, while Bertha is in every way she can thwarting that and leading it toward the Duke. And then we have these two potential divorces and scandals of marriages falling apart with Aurora and with Charlotte. And I think it just kind of puts in a nutshell or it kind of boils down the reality of society, of marriage and your position in society are one and the same.

[Tom Myers]

Well, and we've also seen this season, you know, another shift in the social pecking order with the sudden reversal of fortunes at the Van Rhijn house. And, you know, Agnes is processing as well. You know, who is she if she doesn't have this fortune and if her sister suddenly does.

[Carrie Coon]

That's right. And I think. And again, in that household, you know, the theme. I mean, obviously everything overlaps, and that's what's so beautiful about this show, is how all everybody's world intersects with everybody else's world. So what? While Marian is working on her romantic future, potential marriage in that house. And so is Peggy, you know, dealing with those issues, moving into marriage, and what does that mean and choosing the person you choose and what obstacles come along with that? At the same time, we're dealing with what does money do for you in society? Where does that put you? And so now, just as Agnes has lost all her money and Ada has suddenly become rich, so all the positions are shifting.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And Oscar as well. Oscar is dealing with not having money. And here we see a potential way out, thanks to John Adams. Did you always want to bring back John Adams?

[Carrie Coon]

Yes, we did. I mean, we love that relationship. We love that it has a kind of modern feeling to it, even though it has to be dealt with in a very 19th century way. But yeah, we thought that having Oscar have to become his own person and have to become worthy of his position in society, rather than having just been handed it was an interesting story. And then to do it at the hands of his ex lover, who was still such an intimate friend of his, would be particularly meaningful.

[Tom Myers]

And the characters have to figure out how to react to those changes too. We saw Armstrong in this episode say, look, everything is changing. Everything I grew up knowing seems to be in question. This episode in particular had some very sort of, I don't know, squirmy moments. Right. Where the characters were tackling racial prejudice. And you saw Agnes confronted with Arthur, especially Arthur, about some of these sensitive topics and her intentions. But were they empty? These are really big issues. So how does the show tackle things like that? These are big topics.

[Carrie Coon]

We first start by doing deep dive in the history of these communities and of specific people and of the legal issues, of the financial realities of these different communities. And once I think we understand that, that really carefully, then Julian and Sonja kind of craft the stories together of how that's going to be told and expressed. We in the production area will then look at how we can bring that alive. And then we just really kind of talk about each of our characters and what. Where they've been and where they're heading and what are the most interesting opportunities for them to come across and obstacles to overcome in their pursuits.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Do you think about it in terms of how the themes relate to today, or is it just natural that history repeats itself?

[Carrie Coon]

We do think about it for sure, and I think it's one of our jobs all the time, is to make a really interesting, clear distinction between what is the same today and what's different. And so. So as those things change, we Want to make it really clear where we can. Where the assumptions are different, you know, about men and women and how they behave and about, you know, race and how that is managed in society in different environments.

[Alicia Malone]

So there was a long break between season two and three filming wise because of various strikes. What was it like for you to return to the and see all the cast and crew again?

[Carrie Coon]

It was like walking into an old, you know, comfortable suit. It was so easy and so fun. And I think, you know, it's a hard show. You know, it's a tricky show, and people are in hair and makeup and wardrobe for long hours, and there's long shooting hours, and those are hot clothes to be in. And, you know, there's. There's. It's months of it, and it's just a lot. And by the end of the season, everybody is proud of the work they've done and kind of tired, you know, ready for a break. We had so much time in there. And I think that in some ways, the strike reminded everybody of what a rare, supported, delightful group of people and situation we have. And so everybody came back really happy to be together again and doing this.

[Tom Myers]

And with all of those Broadway stars. I mean, we have asked you this before point blank, Michael, but at what point could we possibly have a Gilded Age musical special episode? Could be just one episode. That's all we need.

[Carrie Coon]

I am not the one to ask. You have to drill hard, get, you know, really twist Julian's arm. It would be crazy not to.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, we are really enjoying this season so far, and it's great to have you back. So thank you, Michael Engler, for your time.

[Carrie Coon]

Thank you, guys. It's always a pleasure.

[Tom Myers]

Alicia. That was so. It is always so fun to have Michael Engler on the show to give us really, a deep insight into how the show is organized, how it works, how they come up with and deal with all of these scripts. And even just the process of making.

[Alicia Malone]

The show such a huge production, it takes so many people, takes a village. There's a lot of logistics that goes on, and you have to have someone like Michael at the top just overseeing everything. He's also just so fun to talk to. I mean, Tom, I feel like he's a friend now that we've spoken to him. This is our third time.

[Tom Myers]

We've been so close for three years. I guess that is all for us today, Alicia Malone. But soon we'll be back with another episode of the Gilded Age podcast.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes. We'll have more interviews with the cast and crew, more banter More facts. Possibly more larian.

[Tom Myers]

More larian, please.

[Alicia Malone]

We need more larian. So make sure you watch the new episodes of the HBO original series the Gilded Aids, and then then tune in to the official Gilded Age Podcast wherever you find podcasts. And now, as a reminder, you can watch this podcast as well as listen to it. I'll see you next time.

[Tom Myers]

Bye Bye. This has been the official Gilded Age Podcast, written, hosted and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers.

[Alicia Malone]

The podcast is a production of HBO in collaboration with Pod People.

[Tom Myers]

For Pod People, our super producer is Rebecca Chassan, associate producer Sam Gabauer, and our video editor is Susanna Vasquez. Special thanks to Hannah Pedersen and Amy.

[Alicia Malone]

Machado for HBO Podcasts. Our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt and associate producer is Erin Kelly.