“Who Is in Charge Here?” with Julian Fellowes, Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon

Summary

The Official Gilded Age Podcast: Episode Summary Episode Title: “Who Is in Charge Here?”
Guests: Julian Fellowes, Christine Baranski, Cynthia Nixon
Release Date: June 23, 2025

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Introduction

In the premiere episode of Season Three of The Official Gilded Age Podcast, hosted by Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies and Tom Myers from The Bowery Boys podcast, listeners are delved deeper into the intricacies of HBO’s Emmy-winning series, The Gilded Age. This episode, titled “Who Is in Charge Here?”, features insightful discussions with the show's creator Julian Fellowes, along with esteemed cast members Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon.

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Season Three Overview and Episode Recap

Setting and Historical Context

The episode begins by setting the stage for Season Three, which picks up in the spring of 1884—a pivotal year marked by significant historical events such as the financial panic that underscores much of the season’s tension.

Christine Baranski highlights the dramatic opening of the season, where the setting shifts to Morenci, Arizona. Here, George Russell (a character inspired by the real-life Vanderbilts) is seen negotiating with local mine owners to expand his railroad empire:

“...George is planning to build some kind of even faster coast to coast rail network... fast freight is the future.” (04:22)

This strategic expansion echoes the real transcontinental railroad, completed in 1869, demonstrating the show's commitment to blending historical accuracy with dramatic storytelling.

Plot Development and Character Dynamics

A significant plot point in this episode is the temperance movement's influence on the Russell household. Ada Russell now holds financial control, creating a power struggle with Agnes, the former head of the household. This tension is vividly portrayed during a temperance meeting orchestrated by Ada, which Agnes resists vehemently:

“Let the sober circus begin.” (14:04) — Agnes Van Rhijn

This conflict not only highlights the differing ideologies between the sisters but also reflects the broader societal tensions of the era regarding alcohol consumption and social reform.

Additionally, the episode introduces personal dramas, such as Aurora Fane’s divorce scandal, showcasing the era’s stringent societal norms:

“This will ruin me.” — Aurora Fane (26:32)

Aurora’s plight underscores the harsh realities faced by women during the Gilded Age, where divorce, especially when initiated by the woman, carried severe social stigma.

Key Themes and Historical Insights

The episode explores several key themes:

• Economic Ambition and Risk: George Russell’s unyielding drive to expand his railroad empire mirrors the real-life ambitions of Gilded Age magnates, embodying both the opportunity and peril of rapid industrial expansion.

• Social Reform and Power Dynamics: The temperance movement serves as a backdrop for exploring the shifting power within elite households, emphasizing the clash between progressive ideologies and traditional power structures.

• Gender Roles and Societal Expectations: Aurora Fane’s struggle with divorce highlights the gender inequalities of the time, where societal expectations heavily favored men's reputations over women's.

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Interviews and Insights

Conversation with Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon

The latter half of the podcast features an engaging interview with Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon, who portray Agnes and Ada Russell, respectively. They discuss the complexities of their characters and the season's evolving dynamics.

Christine Baranski elaborates on Agnes's enduring control and sharp wit:

“Agnes is a smart cookie who's had a very tough life experience.” (44:07)

Meanwhile, Cynthia Nixon provides insight into Ada’s character development, emphasizing her warmth and progressive ideals:

“Ada really sees virtue and she wants virtue. Virtue includes her love, warmth, kindness, and tenderness.” (46:32)

Their discussion delves into the delicate balance between power and compassion within the Russell household, illustrating how personal ambitions and societal expectations shape their interactions.

Interview with Julian Fellowes

Lord Julian Fellowes, the creator and executive producer, shares his vision for Season Three. He emphasizes the theme of impermanence of fortune and the volatility of the Gilded Age:

“The Gilded Age wasn't only a time when you made a fast fortune, it was also a time when you could very easily lose one.” (51:16)

Fellowes discusses the historical influences behind the narrative, drawing parallels between historical figures and the characters in the show. He reflects on the legacy and motivations of characters like George Russell, highlighting their relentless pursuit of wealth and power:

“Is it enough? It's rather like stardom... when you're the person that's doing it, is it enough?” (58:33)

This conversation underscores the show's commitment to portraying the complexities of ambition and the personal costs of achieving greatness.

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Notable Quotes

• Agnes Van Rhijn: “Let the sober circus begin.” (14:04)
• Aurora Fane: “This will ruin me.” (26:32)
• Christine Baranski on Agnes: “She's a smart cookie who's had a very tough life experience.” (44:07)
• Cynthia Nixon on Ada: “Virtue includes her love, warmth, kindness, and tenderness.” (46:32)
• Julian Fellowes on Fortune: “The Gilded Age wasn't only a time when you made a fast fortune, it was also a time when you could very easily lose one.” (51:16)

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Conclusion and Future Outlook

The episode concludes with anticipation for the unfolding drama of Season Three. The power struggle within the Russell family, coupled with external societal pressures, sets the stage for intense character development and historical exploration. Listeners are left eager to witness how these dynamics will evolve, particularly with Gladys Russell’s rebellious actions and the looming threats to the Russell empire.

Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon express excitement about the season's direction, hinting at deeper explorations of historical events and personal vendettas:

“Let the sober circus begin.” — Christine Baranski
“I'm excited for what’s to come.” — Cynthia Nixon

Julian Fellowes reiterates his optimism about engaging audiences with a nuanced portrayal of American history, blending factual events with creative storytelling:

“I hope that some of the stories are exciting to the audience, and I hope they enjoy following them through.” (74:46)

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This episode of The Official Gilded Age Podcast masterfully intertwines historical context with character-driven narratives, providing listeners with a rich and engaging exploration of the societal transformations during the Gilded Age. With expert insights from the show's creators and cast, the podcast promises an illuminating journey through one of America's most dynamic eras.

Transcript

[Alicia Malone]

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[Tom Myers]

For our.

[Alicia Malone]

Smoothest look and feel ever. Summer won't know what hit it. Stretch your limits in the non stop flexibility of the new Lululemon align no line pant in select stores [e-mail].

[Tom Myers]

Unhappy what is this babble? You have a nice house, you have money, people come to your dinners, you're invited everywhere. What more is there?

[Alicia Malone]

Some people want more. I know I do.

[Tom Myers]

Take a ride around Five Points or Hell's Kitchen and tell me you're not satisfied with your life.

[Alicia Malone]

And we're back. Finally. Welcome back to the official Gilded Age podcast. I am so excited to be here. This is season three of the Emmy award winning HBO original series the Gilded Age. I'm Alicia Malone from Turner Classic Movies and I'm thrilled to have with me the Tom Myers from the Bowery Boys podcast, the font of knowledge when it comes to the Gilded Age. Hi Tom.

[Christine Baranski]

Hi, Alicia. Wow, I am so happy to be a font. I am so happy to also just be back here. I've been waiting for this moment for so long to be here sitting with you at this desk with a stack of Gilded age newspaper articles ready to share with you and, you know, just ready to be able to talk about our favorite TV show, the Gilded Age. I mean, I almost wept. I'm honest, I honestly telling you, I almost wept when I heard the theme song Startup just now. It was like, it's happening. So much has happened and yet we're back for another season together.

[Alicia Malone]

I know. I immediately got out my fake violin and started to do the da da na na na string bit and then do the big drums. I love the theme song. It really just gets in there. And you know, you and I have been keeping in touch throughout the break. Anytime any piece of news popped up about the show, we would immediately text each other. I can't wait to see all the new characters that are coming, the new cast members. I'm sure there's going to be more Tony Award winning or nominated actors coming our way.

[Christine Baranski]

Oh my gosh. I just, I'm so happy that they keep using so many wonderful theater actors. It just, it's like a theater enthusiast dream.

[Alicia Malone]

Absolutely. And also something we're doing this season on the podcast, something new is that we've added a video component. So if you like listening to this podcast, then you can still do that. You can still find this wherever you get podcasts. But if you would like to see our Bright, shiny, happy faces. Then you can watch the video version on Macs, YouTube and Spotify.

[Christine Baranski]

How shiny are they, Alicia? Because I did buy some blotting paper. Maybe I have to get that out. Actually. Makes me a little, little nervous, but, yes, that's right. And today on the show, Alicia and I will be making our way through episode one of season three. And then we'll be sitting down in the second half of the show with Mr. Gilded Age himself, the show's creator, writer, and executive producer, Lord Julian Fellowes. But that's not all, because then we'll be joined by our favorite couple of aunts, Agnes and Ada, or rather Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon.

[Alicia Malone]

We have a lot coming up, so let's dive right into season three, episode one. It's called who's in Charge Here? Written by Julian Fellowes and Sonja Warfield and directed by Michael Engler. And we begin actually not in New York for once, but in the wild, wild West. We see George Russell's boots as he gets off the stagecoach, and he arrives in Morenci, Arizona, to negotiate with local mine owners, or clodhoppers, as he calls them, to try to buy their land.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, I thought this opening was surprising and kind of exciting, you know, that they made this Western frontier the opening shot. But I do think it is a very nice reminder, you know, that although the show spends most of its time up on 61st street in Manhattan, there is a whole big country out there. And in the 1880s, it was growing bigger and it was stretching farther west. And it's also, in a way, a subtle reminder that George Russell's fortune itself comes from places that are far from his home on the Upper east side. Last season, we got that kind of a reminder, you know, when his steelworkers went on strike in Pennsylvania. And now it seems that we are being taken even farther away, off into Morenci, Arizona.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, we hear a little bit about George's plans. So am I right in assuming that this is about the transcontinental railroad?

[Christine Baranski]

That's true. And it seems to be 1884. Late. Well, 1883. 1884, something like that.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. I don't think we know exactly what time it is, do we? There's no time stamp at the beginning. Where do we end season two?

[Christine Baranski]

We ended season two in October of 1883. Right. With the opening of the new Metropolitan Opera House.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes, yes.

[Christine Baranski]

But now we're being given some clues that it's springtime. So I think it must be early 1884. And to your question? The country's first transcontinental railroad was completed around 15 years earlier in 1869.

[Alicia Malone]

So when George is talking about extending his line from New York to Chicago and then Chicago to la, what is he actually referring to?

[Christine Baranski]

Well, it sounds like George is planning to build some kind of even faster coast to coast rail network. Right. Something he said that would make the trip from the east all the way over to the west coast without many, many stops along the way. And he says a couple of times in a few different ways that he thinks that fast freight is the future. Right. To get things, I guess, from the west, like cattle and wheat and so forth, back to the east coast quickly.

[Alicia Malone]

And as we know throughout the show, both George and Bertha are based on the Vanderbilts. So was Commodore Vanderbilt involved in the transcontinental railroad like this?

[Christine Baranski]

Not really. Commodore Vanderbilt and his descendants mostly operated the New York Central Railroad, which really dominated the eastern United States. But we know that George and Bertha are not just the Vanderbilts. Right. They're a mix of different characters. He's a mix of different robber barons, really, because, yes, he's got the railroads, but his money also comes from steel, and steel was Andrew Carnegie's thing. So he's a mix.

[Alicia Malone]

So we hear that George's plan is to charge a premium and then he'll make a lot of money because there are grants and subsidies that will pay for most of the building costs themselves.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, and I like that detail because that actually did happen back in the 1860s when the US government paid railroads to construct the transcontinental railroad because it was just way too expensive for any private company to build that kind of thing on their own. And the US Government thought it was a good investment because it would immediately help settle the western United States.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, George Russell is determined to win and not let anything stop him, as always. But during this, he gets word about a run on the Metropolitan national bank and so he decides to leave for New York immediately.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, there is suddenly some really major banking drama unfolding in the show. It just arrives with the telegram and. Yeah, there was a major financial panic in 1884. And in this panic, several New York banks actually failed.

[Alicia Malone]

Okay, 1884, that goes without timeline. And the Metropolitan national bank was a real bank. I was reading that there were rumors that the president of the bank was going to borrow money from his own bank.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, the entire front page of the May 15, 1884 New York Times and I might have a copy here.

[Alicia Malone]

Right.

[Christine Baranski]

With these, happened to have. It was devoted to the eight New York City banks and one Brooklyn bank that had failed the previous day. Under the headline on the verge of a Panic. Wall street alarmed by a succession of failures. And at the top of the list is the Metropolitan national bank, whose president, George Cini, who George Russell mentions in the show, was a, quote, railroad speculator and philanthropist.

[Alicia Malone]

What does that mean, a speculator?

[Christine Baranski]

He was heavily invested in this kind of railroad expansion that we're talking about here in the show and putting his financial institutions at grave risk.

[Alicia Malone]

Okay, and then they mentioned two other banks. It was the Marine national bank and the Second National Bank.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, and they are both here as well on page one. They had already failed earlier that month. All of which is just underscoring the risk here. George Russell is planning to build an extremely costly coast to coast railroad network, we think, in 1884, when in real life at that time, banks had speculated heavily in railroads and were failing. And this all led up as one of the main causes of the panic of 1884.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, well, George is not panicking yet, but he races back to New York City where there is a snowstorm, even though, as everyone keeps mentioning, it is supposed to be spring.

[Christine Baranski]

And I do love a New York City snowstorm, especially one that just sneaks up on you like that. And it's nice. Church turns and asks a banister, has there ever been a snowstorm this close to spring? And leading me obviously to double check in the newspaper archives if there ever had been or if there was a late snowstorm that spring. I did find a snowstorm on March 5, 1884, Alicia, which is awfully close to spring.

[Alicia Malone]

Okay, so maybe we can say that the show begins in spring of 1884, around spring in 1884.

[Christine Baranski]

I'm going with March 5, March 4, 1884, unless we're talking about the bank failures. But anyhow, regardless of the date, I am just happy to see all of our favorite staff members from the Van Rhijn house and the Russell homes just frolicking in the snow. And a shout out to whoever designed or found that horse drawn carriage with the largest snow tires I have ever seen. Did you notice those?

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I was trying to figure out if that was plowing the streets. It seemed to be like rolling flat, but I don't know exactly, but it was such a great detail. And I also love how that scene begins because you just get this giant snowball that comes straight into the lens.

[Christine Baranski]

It's like we're playing with him. Everybody's having a blast until we go inside the Van Rhijn House, or rather the Forte house. Excuse me. Where there has been some significant tension brewing between Agnes and Ada since the final jaw dropping moment of season two when there was that sudden reversal of fortunes and Ada suddenly found herself holding the family's purse strings.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, well, I think we could have guessed that Agnes was not going to give up her power very easily, but it is causing great confusion amongst the staff. They're receiving conflicting instructions, especially as Ada starts to set up for her meeting.

[Tom Myers]

Oh, what are you bringing those back down for? Put them on the credenza for Mrs.

[Christine Baranski]

Forte's temperance meeting.

[Alicia Malone]

I did, but as I was setting it out, Mrs. Van Rhijn said she didn't want her silver used for the meeting.

[Tom Myers]

What should I do?

[Christine Baranski]

Well, it's Mrs. Van Rhijn's silver, but Mrs.

[Alicia Malone]

Forte pays our wages. We cannot serve two masters.

[Tom Myers]

But we do.

[Alicia Malone]

All right, I'll speak to both Mrs.

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Forte and Mrs. Van Rhijn, and you'll get two different answers.

[Christine Baranski]

They're confused and Agnes seems amused. Bemused. Bemused by. By what she refers to as Ada's latest pet cause, the temperance movement. And the temperance movement is the cause that advocated for the moderation or the outright banning of the consumption of alcohol.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I was reading a little bit about the temperance movement, and it seemed like it was popular amongst religious groups and women's organizations, but it mainly seemed to be middle class citizens.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, it has its roots in the religious revival movements that swept through the US in the early 19th century, and it only grew over the 1800s. By the 1880s, there were local temperance societies, really, throughout the country, and they were holding meetings, much like we see here, to promote their cause.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and Agnes is definitely not on board with this cause. She wouldn't even allow Ada's guests to use her good silver.

[Cynthia Nixon]

Are you really that petty?

[Tom Myers]

I am discerning. There is a difference.

[Christine Baranski]

There is a difference, Alicia.

[Alicia Malone]

Is there? I don't know. I'm not so sure. In this case, it sounds like she's just being petty.

[Christine Baranski]

Well, my favorite line in this whole scene is when the first guest rings the doorbell and Agnes throws back her arms and exclaims, let the sober circus begin.

[Alicia Malone]

Yes, great line. Great line.

[Christine Baranski]

Begin. Yes. Look, we saw Agnes and Ada drinking wine seemingly every day at lunch throughout season one and two. Okay, so I can understand why Agnes finds this all a bit of a folly, really. Although there is that tender moment between the sisters when Ada admits that this cause, in fact, also gives her a purpose for living.

[Alicia Malone]

I Know, that scene was really sad. You know, you see just how much Ada is struggling with her grief and how she wants to channel the good nature of Luke Forte and it makes her feel closer to Luke. But I'm curious about the temperance movement in relation to Agnes because we're. Would this have been a movement that the upper classes of society would have joined?

[Christine Baranski]

I think that many in society stayed away from the temperance movement because it was, like you said, more associated with middle class Americans, not with upper class Americans, you know, who thought of themselves as sophisticated with European customs, you know, on top of the list of customs was to have an expensive wine cellar.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I'm sure it was a point of pride. And this, this meeting, though, was very fiery. And I mean that literally. I mean, the speaker did not hold back in saying exactly what she thought about those who consume alcohol.

[Tom Myers]

So I'm afraid those who partake of alcohol are destined to the fury of hell.

[Alicia Malone]

The fury of hell, Tom.

[Christine Baranski]

It's some strong language. And here we see that link between the temperance movement and the kind of fire and brim religious revivalism of the 19th century. But all of that, you know, was quite far from Agnes and Ada's own Episcopal tradition. Right. As Agnes points out to her sister, the Reverend Luke Forte, Ada's late husband drank wine and he also served it to thousands of parishioners. Quote, just like Jesus.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. I don't know if they would count communion wine as part of the temperance movement or not. I'm not sure.

[Christine Baranski]

Depends on how much they sip. But, yeah, probably not.

[Alicia Malone]

But it all underscores the power dynamics going on at the Forte's house. Bannister is getting pressured by the downstairs staff to figure out who is actually in charge. And it's interesting to think about who's going to win this one, Tom, because Agnes definitely has power and likes being in charge. But Ada definitely has the money now.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, I don't know, I. I kind of feel like Agnes is always going to be in charge. She always seems like she's in charge. Though I will point out I was kind of surprised and impressed when amidst all of that confusion, right. Over who's in charge, Ada simply tells.

[Tom Myers]

Agnes who is in charge here.

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

That's rather what I wanted to.

[Cynthia Nixon]

I won't remind you why I have the right to give orders.

[Alicia Malone]

Go, Ada.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, I mean, I don't think that we've ever seen Ada just sort of silence her sister like that. Right. This is new territory for Ada. I am just very excited. I feel like this is going to be Very interesting.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I think a war is brewing there. And to segue, a war is brewing over the street at the Russells between Bertha and Gladys. Because Bertha still has her plan for Gladys to marry the Duke. And we hear that the Duke is coming to New York for a visit. She's trying to keep that from Gladys right now. But Gladys is more interested with young Billy Carlton.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah. When we first see Larry and Gladys at the very beginning of the episode, Larry takes his sister outside, ostensibly for a walk to see the snow. But he actually takes her down to see Billy, who is hiding out by the servants entrance. Seems to be a popular place to hide people or to deliver bad news. Right, but. But it's clear that the are in love. And Billy seems to be ready to ask her father George for his permission to marry Gladys. And Gladys, I don't know. She seems to be all in.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, she seems to really love Billy and I hope it works out in her favor. She's also not afraid to tell Bertha exactly what she thinks of the Duke. In fact, she says, I don't like him. Quite simply, I don't like him.

[Christine Baranski]

She gets straight to the point there. At the little dinner with her brother and mom, she's just like, nope. You know, she has her own plans and they don't involve any dukes. And so does I think Larry. I think Larry has his own plans because when they were out in the snow. Before we get our very first scene with Larry and Marian together, Larian is back.

[Alicia Malone]

Larian.

[Christine Baranski]

Marian is all, you know, she's playing all shy about being seen with him publicly. After all. I mean, she has actually just been through not one, but two broken engagements. But yeah, so it's a little awkward there. But I was just happy and relieved to see them both back together. It was just kind of cute how they were kind of awkward and lovey dovey.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. I'm glad that we finally get to see them together instead of this. Will they, won't they now they're finally in the relationship and I'm here for it. But Gladys has to rush back to be back in time for her portrait. Sitting with John Singer Sargent. Now I was excited to hear that he is a character because Tom, I love this artist. I mean, I'm not alone in saying that he's a very popular artist. Very popular portrait artist. But he also did landscapes and various people from his travels, children. The thing I love about his portraits though, when you see them, is that he somehow seems to capture emotion in the people's eyes. The people sitting for him, it's not flat like a regular portrait. He seems to catch exactly what the subject was thinking and feeling at the time. And so it makes me curious to see what he'll come up with for Gladys.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, we shall see. Now, John Singer Sargent, I think, would have likely been the kind of artist that Bertha Russell would have picked to paint Gladys, because he was in the news, even a touch scandalous at the time. But he was also interesting. He was an American, but born to American parents who were living as expats at the time in Florence, Italy. And then the family sort of roamed around Europe during his childhood and he studied painting in Paris and quickly made a name for himself for his portraits and his landscapes, like you said. But he also. Yeah, he painted many society women, including, as Bertha mentions, his portrait of Mrs. Burkhart.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, and that one is a really beautiful painting. It's known as lady with the Rose. And as Bertha mentions, it has darker elements and lighter elements. A dark dress, the white rose. But again, as I said, I just love the way that he captures what Mrs. Burkhart was thinking at the time. She seems like she's quite blase or unimpressed by the whole thing.

[Christine Baranski]

Unimpressed. But the crowds loved it. The painting was a hit at the 1882 Paris Salon.

[Alicia Malone]

And then we also get to hear them talk about Madame X, which is John Singer Sargent's most famous painting. And Tom, this painting was particularly scandalous.

[Christine Baranski]

Oh, yeah, he got a little daring in this portrait which was presented in the Paris Salon two years later in 1884. So right around the time of our story, this portrait. And yep, this portrait is of a young American born socialite named Virginie Gautreau. And it created a sensation when it went on display.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Not only was she wearing a dress that, you know, bared her shoulders, very daring at the time, but also, as Sargent mentions, there was a huge scandal.

[Christine Baranski]

About her shoulder strap because as it was originally painted and exhibited, one of those dress straps, as Bertha mentions, had fallen off her shoulder. Off her shoulder, Alicia.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, where are my pearls? Need to clutch them.

[Christine Baranski]

I think the pearls were intact. It was just that one strap that had fallen over. But that. That was all that it took to create a scandal at the Paris salon in 1884. She was just one strap away from popping out of her dress completely. So, yeah, as he mentions, Sargent later painted the strap back up on her shoulder. Still, though, scandalous. But he took risks. And even if it meant that his reputation did suffer at first, and because of that, he had to move to London. So I think that that's why he feels the need here to bring it up to Bertha.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And interestingly, if people are in New York right now at the Met, there is an exhibit called Sargent and Paris, and they own Madame X. So if you go to the Met, you can see this painting, and what you notice when you see it in person is that the repainted strap is slightly blurry. Tom. It's like he did it in a rush. It's not as perfect as the other one, which makes total sense. But I'm just really jealous that Gladys gets to have her own portrait by John Singer Sargent. I would have loved that. But do you know how much that would have cost? Was. Was that a very extreme, expensive exercise?

[Christine Baranski]

Well, in the 1890s, when he was living in London, he was charging $4,000 for a full length portrait, which was a huge sum of money at the time. Perhaps around $140,000 today. These, you know, currency conversions are famously not reliable. But still, that gives us an idea. But that kind of money would not probably have been a huge hindrance to Bertha. Although I will add that in 1884, the year of our story, Gladys would have actually had to travel to his studio in Paris to get her portrait painted, because Sargent would not visit New York as a professional artist until 1887.

[Alicia Malone]

Okay, so I'm still going with 1884 here for our story.

[Christine Baranski]

Okay, sure. Regardless. But then we pop over to the Fane household, where Aurora is bustling about getting ready for a night at the opera. But once Charles Fane walks in, we can tell immediately that something is up. He tells Aurore to sit down because he has something he needs to say. I've also met someone and I've been spending a lot of time with her.

[Tom Myers]

But I thought we were happy. I've been happy. Haven't you?

[Christine Baranski]

Don't make me say something unkind.

[Alicia Malone]

Gosh, that's such a heartbreaking scene. I mean, it took me aback. I'm sure it took everyone watching the show completely aback. I did not expect that from Charles at all. And neither did Aurora. And it's also interesting the way that these dynamics work, because even though Charles is the one who cheated, he says to Aurora that she has to bring the suit and that the only accepted cause is adultery. Is that right?

[Christine Baranski]

That's right. In New York. Yes. Yeah. My stomach just kind of turned during this scene because it's so unfair to Aurora and Aurora is so likable. Right. And I just. Yeah. I wondered about that adultery claim, you know, being the only accepted cause. So I called up a friend of mine, Professor Nick Surrette, a historian who has written extensively about marriage in the 19th century. And he explained that laws regulating marriage and divorce varied by state. And yes, in the 1880s, adultery would have been the only accepted cause in New York state. And the victim here, Aurora, would have needed to bring the case.

[Alicia Malone]

It's so unfair. I mean, again, just heartbreaking when Aurora says, like this makes me glad that we never had children that killed me. You also hear her keep saying, my life is over. This will ruin me. So again, even though Charles is the one at fault and Marion says she did no wrong, Aurora, she is the one who's going to suffer in society.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, there was a double standard. It's true. Yeah. Her social life would likely be over, while Charles, you know, could. Could much more easily recover from the stigma of divorce because he was a man. The outside world would likely see their divorce as Aurora's fault because she hadn't satisfied her husband. Even, you know, even if we see here Charles is trying to reassure her that, don't worry, Aurora, times have changed. Things are not as they used to be among our people.

[Tom Myers]

Things are very much as they used to be.

[Christine Baranski]

Again, things were just much easier for Charles the dirtbag.

[Alicia Malone]

Such a dirt bag. Such a dirtbag. But, you know, speaking of dirtbags. Well, actually. Well, let's call him a reformed dirtbag. Oscar, let's talk about him for a second because he is really struggling. He lost all of Agnes's money and now he doesn't have any of his own. Ada is refusing to give Oscar an allowance. And Ada decides to invite Larry Russell over for dinner, hoping that it'll inspire Oscar to want to start to work. But Oscar just sees himself as being completely different to Larry. He says to Marian that I was born to be rich. I was not born to make a fortune.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, I was struck by the fact that I think that Oscar says that to Marian while they're waiting in the hallway for the bathroom to be free. That's right. Which I was like, oh, they don't have their own ensuite bathrooms. That's more of an old fashioned home. But I guess I was also struck throughout this entire episode by just how down and kind of defeated Oscar seemed. Right. I mean, he's still a little bit cocky. He is, you know, he is Oscar. But he seems, he seems kind of depressed. And there's this full expectation from his mom, from his mother and from his aunt that he's going to go out and find work and make his own money. Which is the very opposite of what's expected for Marian. Even though she's the one who actually went out proactively and found a position.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, that's right. We hear that she is about to start teaching at the Female Normal and High School, which was renamed hunter College in 1940. And as she says, the school welcomed all religions and all races.

[Christine Baranski]

Yes, it was a normal school, meaning that it was a teacher's college. And it was unusual and progressive for its time in that it was open to female students of all races, religions and ethnicities. It had been opened downtown in 1870, but it moved up to park in 68th street in 1873. So that would have made it about a 10 block walk for Marian. So pretty convenient. And the school also operated a public elementary school and a high school. So yes, Marian could have taken classes there and she could have also taught there.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, this whole dinner with Larry is extremely awkward, not only for Oscar, but also for Jack, because Jack is working with Larry now, trying to sell his invention of the clock. But at the same time, Jack is also a footman, so he has to serve Larry.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, nobody can reveal more with a little side glance than Ben Ahlers is Jack. Yeah, I have to admit that I laughed out loud when Agnes stopped all of the craziness and reset the power dynamics at the table as she just blurted out.

[Tom Myers]

I'm glad for this, Mr. Weston, whoever he may be. But can we revert to traditional ways and allow the foot to bring round more sauce?

[Alicia Malone]

Of course, Mum. Perfect.

[Christine Baranski]

I mean, it's funny, right? It's kind of mean, but it's also very funny, Agnes. It's totally 100% Agnes.

[Alicia Malone]

But now we should talk about Peggy because firstly we hear some good news that she is working on a novel. Things are going well for her work wise, but she catches a cold on her way back to 61st Street. And just throughout the episode, it progressively gets worse and worse.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, well, first of all, about her good news. The Christian Recorder is still around. It was founded in 1852. It is the oldest continuously published African American publication in the United States. So for Peggy to have an extract of her novel published there in the paper would have been a real achievement. But now for that cough. Yeah, I got nervous from the first moment that I heard her cough. I was like, oh no, somebody call the doctor. Unfortunately, Agnes calls her doctor, Dr. Lewis, who goes right up the stairs and then comes right back down refusing to treat her.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, that's so unfair, especially when she is that sick. I mean, Ada mentions the Hippocratic oath. And doesn't that apply to him in this situation?

[Christine Baranski]

Well, short answer is no. The oath itself dates back to ancient Greece, and it's primarily about doing no harm and behaving ethically. But there's nothing in it right about. About treating patients regardless of their race. But Ada clearly wishes there was something in there but this. The sad truth is that medical care and medical education were segregated at the time. And that is why so many black communities established their own hospitals and their own medical schools, like Howard University's medical school, which was founded in 1868. Without these institutions, black Americans often, you know, struggled to access quality health care, especially in emergencies like we're seeing here.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, I'm sure Dr. Lewis will regret his choice, particularly if Agnes has anything to do with it. But it comes to the point where Peggy's parents have to be informed about how sick she is. So Jack rushes off to Brooklyn with a letter for her parents. But speaking of choices that may be regretted later on, Gladys and Larry go to the Met so that Gladys can once again secretly meet up with Billy Carlton. And they mention how they're going to just catch the last act of the opera. Was that normal for people to do?

[Christine Baranski]

I think it was quite common. Yeah. I think it was a status thing. You know, you were showing up late intentionally, even if just for the final duets. You know, in a way, you were signaling to others around you that you were so in demand. You know, you had dinners, you had balls, you had the end of the opera. Yeah. It was primarily important for them to make an appearance and be seen. And I love that the. The opera that they are showing up for that night is La Traviata, which, unfortunately, I'm feeling for Gladys is all about true love and class and suffering. And it does not end well. It's a doozy of an ending. Although, you know, maybe that's just. Maybe that's a red herring.

[Alicia Malone]

They do love to sprinkle those red herrings in there. And, you know, Mrs. Fish is kind of becomes innocent. Yeah. You know, Mrs. Fish becomes an innocent bystander to the whole thing. She is talking to Mrs. Carlton, Billy's mother, about the newspaper articles that indicate that the duke is coming to New York to propose to Gladys and sort of making hints as to who might have placed those newspaper articles.

[Christine Baranski]

Who.

[Alicia Malone]

Who may have told the press about that.

[Christine Baranski]

Yes, who would have planted those stories? I mean, Mamie makes it pretty clear that her. That his mom's been leaking the details because she's so modern in that way. Right. She was using society columns for her own strategic purposes. As Mamie puts it succinctly, your mother plays a long game.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. She's also very determined to stick to her game. Because Bertha is very upset when Mrs. Carlton comes to her Metropolitan Opera House tea party and mentions that Gladys was there with her son Billy and that they might have a special announcement coming soon. She's not happy. And Mrs. Fish knows that she's going to be in trouble for that.

[Christine Baranski]

She has some great eye rolls. Some great.

[Alicia Malone]

I'm gonna pay.

[Christine Baranski]

Oh boy. She's also giving me. The whole thing's giving me flashbacks to the season two finale, the scene in the opera house. Because remember, Bertha arranged for the duke to sit right next to Gladys. But she also looked over and caught Gladys making eyes over to Billy Carlton's box.

[Alicia Malone]

That's right. Yeah, that's right.

[Christine Baranski]

So Bertha is clearly not pleased about this Gladys Billy thing and that it hasn't gone away. And later, when she is pressed by Larry, she explains to him that she thinks that Gladys could do much better.

[Tom Myers]

You're young and you're foolish. I don't hold it against you since the two go together.

[Christine Baranski]

But I'm neither.

[Tom Myers]

And I see that your sister can live a powerful, interesting life.

[Christine Baranski]

Do you know what it means to.

[Tom Myers]

Be the Duchess of Buckingham? She can influence politics, shape events, set fashions in clothing and art or anything else. But to do this, she has to be sensible now and avoid stupid choices.

[Christine Baranski]

A stupid choice like Billy Carlton. Do you not think it enough that Gladys just wants to be happy?

[Tom Myers]

Happiness as a byproduct of a well ordered life may last as a goal. It is invariably doomed to failure.

[Alicia Malone]

Oh, Bertha means business. And she does not seem to care at all about Gladys's happiness. And Gladys doesn't seem that worried either. She tells Larry that she's sure that their father, when he returns, will not allow her mother to force her into a marriage that she doesn't want.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, Bertha seems fully invested here. And you know, have we ever seen her change her mind about anything? No, I don't think so.

[Alicia Malone]

No, I. Later on, you know, Bertha and Gladys have words. And Bertha's pretty, pretty harsh on her daughter. She says to her, you're a girl if I say. And then she calls Billy a worthless non entity. Ouch.

[Christine Baranski]

So I usually love Bertha's ruthlessness, Right? It's worked out pretty well for her in previous seasons. But this kind of feels like she's Crossing a line. To me, it just. It seems so heartless to plow forward with this whole scheme and, you know, when her daughter is clearly not on board with it. And she is also historically heading straight into full Alva Vanderbilt territory, because Alva famously, infamously forced her daughter Consuelo away from her true love and into a relationship with the Duke of Marlborough. But that's a big story that deserves a lot more time. And judging from the setup that we're getting here in the first episode, I just have this feeling, Alicia, that we're gonna have more time to talk about this.

[Alicia Malone]

That's right. It's only episode one. We've got a long way to go with this season. I can't wait to see how this all plays out. But in the meantime, we see right at the end of the episode, Gladys packing her bags and then sneaking out into the darkened streets. She's run away.

[Christine Baranski]

It was so dramatic, the way she just shuffled down the stairs and across the main foyer, I mean, and right out into the dark New York nights. I just really hope that she finds a cab quickly because those dark streets, they just do not seem like they're a safe place for a runaway heiress like Gladys Russell.

[Alicia Malone]

She's got such a nice outfit on as well. I love her little getaway dress.

[Christine Baranski]

Impeccably dressed to the end. Yeah, but what a first episode. We started in the Wild west, and we wound up with Gladys on the run.

[Alicia Malone]

I know. So much packed into one episode. I can't wait to see how this all plays out. But we have much more coming up in our episode as well. Let's take a break, and then when we return, we'll be talking to Lord Julian Fellowes and Christine Barinski and Cynthia Nixon. Stay with us. And we're back. I'm Alicia Malone here with Tom Myers. And, Tom, we got to do some really fun in person interviews this season.

[Christine Baranski]

Yes, we did, Alicia. It was so different from previous seasons because here in season three, for the first time, we got to sit down face to face with cast members in the same room and talk to them directly. Season one, when we spoke to them on the podcast, we were doing it virtually, but here we sat down in New York with Agnes and Ada and George and Bertha, all of them. It was quite an experience.

[Alicia Malone]

We got to go to the press junket in order to do some of these interviews, which was held in New York. I've done many press junkets in my time. It's what I used to do for a job. But, Tom, this was Your first experience with a press junket, how did you feel?

[Christine Baranski]

How would one feel if one was sitting, you know, in a room across from Aunt Agnes? It's kind of intense, but it was amazing. And actually, everybody was so lovely. All of the actors were so. So friendly and approachable. So it was. It was a great pleasure. It was not scary. And thank you, Alicia. Thank you for the coaching that you gave me the day before. I think you can still see a little bit of crazy, scared eyes on me if you're watching the video version of the podcast, however.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, that's right, because there is a video version of this podcast. You can actually see our interviews if you would like, or you can listen to them. But let's get into it. Here is our interview with Cynthia Nixon and Christine Baranski.

[Christine Baranski]

Well, Cynthia Nixon and Christine Baranski, welcome back to the official HBO Gilded Age podcast.

[Cynthia Nixon]

Thank you so much.

[Christine Baranski]

So nice to have you here. Today we are talking about episode number one in the series. It is called who's in Charge, Christine? Who's in charge here?

[Tom Myers]

Oh, well, I still am. I just, you know, maybe I don't have the money, but I certainly have the attitude. And I'm just very wary of my sister, presuming she can take over because she simply doesn't have the personality to command a household. I mean, this has been my life. This is the way it is. And I do think it's very hard for people to change, and especially an identity as strong as Agnes. So it's bad for Agnes, but it's wonderful for Christine as an actress to play, you know, having the tables turned.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. You two are close friends. I know you've worked together on the stage. And now season three of the show. So, Cynthia, what was it like, firstly, coming back after such a long break and also getting to play with this new dynamic with your characters?

[Cynthia Nixon]

Well, it was so. The prospect of it was so delicious. And of course, we never know if there's gonna be another season. So when we ended season two on this wonderful cliffhanger of the Right. The balance of power shifting, we were, you know, so hopeful that we would get to come back.

[Tom Myers]

So many comedic possibilities.

[Cynthia Nixon]

And we would spend a lot of time trying to concoct, you know, if Ada was in charge of the household, what would she turn it into? A home for unwed mothers or stray cats.

[Alicia Malone]

Exactly.

[Tom Myers]

Like, Agnes would never leave the bedroom because there were all these bohemian types and wild animals downstairs.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Nixon]

Run an English school for recently arrived immigrants or who knows what.

[Tom Myers]

Well, but it does Start with, you know, setting up chairs for a temperance meeting. And it's snowing out and it's freezing cold. It's like, what are you doing? Nobody's going to show up. And why this? Why this? You've tried so many different charities and now you're going to tell everybody they can't drink wine. And Agnes has no intention of giving up her wine or her cocktails, especially given her new place in the household and the way she feels. She probably needs more wine, probably takes a bottle up to her room at night to cope. So it already starts at a certain comedic level with the, you know, the non drinking thing.

[Cynthia Nixon]

Yeah. And, you know, it's. If you're suddenly, I mean, in charge of people, like everything is very different. Because Ada, previous to this unforeseen windfall of an inheritance, she had no power in the house, no real standing. And so one of her thing was just to be sort of friends with everybody, including all the downstairs staff. So once you're sort of everybody's friend and then all of a sudden you have to be everybody's boss, that's a little challenging. And also, I think, you know, Ada feels that people really like her, maybe like her more than Agnes because she's so warm and friendly.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, one thing that hasn't changed is Agnes Zingers. I mean, Lord Julian Fellowes is so brilliant at writing all of these. But for you as an actor, how do you approach playing Agnes in the way that she's biting? She kind of says what people are thinking, but also likable, too.

[Tom Myers]

Those are judgments that, you know, I don't think about being likable or not likable. I just play the character. I happen to like Agnes very much. I like her unabashed frankness and she doesn't suffer fools. And she makes a lot of very good points about how the world's going to hell in a handbag. And, you know, she's quite right on a lot of fronts. But in terms of zingers and all, I'm sure Cynthia will agree, you don't, as an actor think, oh, here's my biggest zinger. The more you think about it, the less effective it will be. If you think this is coming from the character and she's just quick witted. She's very, very sharp. She's a woman who I think reads the newspaper daily and is actually very attuned to gossip. Even though she wouldn't admit to caring about what's going on outside with the nouveau riche. She wants to be up on it. But she's also, I think, pretty savvy. And as you see in the scene where she knows what the women's suffrage is all about, it's a topic that interests her. And everybody's agog, like, no, I have my causes, you have your causes. And so Agnes is just a smart cookie who's had a very tough life experience. And those women are just interesting, and Julian writes them wonderfully. So, you know, I. I always feel like I'm a, you know, I'm a sort of Julian Fellowes mouthpiece because it's his wit. It's not Christine's wit, it's Julian's wit. And I'm a conduit of sorts.

[Cynthia Nixon]

Yeah. And I think it's an easy trap to say that, you know, Agnes is conservative and that Ada is progressive, because actually, I feel like they just see the world through such different lenses. Like, Agnes really understands power, and that power is kind of at the root of everything. And Ada, in some ways, Ada really sees virtue and she wants. And virtue. And virtue includes for her love, you know, and warmth and kindness and tenderness. But the fact of the matter is, the world rotates much more on power than it does on love, I think. And so when it comes to things like the women's suffrage movement, you know, Agnes, who You wouldn't. I mean, she is kind of a feminist.

[Alicia Malone]

Right.

[Cynthia Nixon]

She's run her household, and she has very, you know, very mixed feelings about her deceased husband. And really, as a female head of house, she really is interested in suffrage, where Ada is sort of in some way more progressive and tender and feminine. And virtue, virtue, temperance, that. That would be a great thing to help, you know, women whose husbands are spending all the money and hitting them because they're drunk. And, you know, and it's. And even with, you know, Peggy and Agnes, you know, that's something that Agnes sees and that Ada is maybe a little more shy about or held back about.

[Tom Myers]

Yeah. And I think as Agnes has grown older, realizes if she had power, maybe she wouldn't have had to marry a man that she didn't love, a man who actually was quite intimidating. And she had to, you know, do what women did back then, which is get married, to be protected. Otherwise, you. And she brought her sister along. One of the reasons you got to be the way you are is because you were. I was protected by me and by the money that I was able to bring in. But Agnes can't help wondering, well, if I had money, would I have. Would I have had to marry A man with money. And, you know, as you get older, you do have those feelings. Like, what kind of life might I have had if I had had my own power?

[Christine Baranski]

Well, and in this episode, we see Aurora Fane come to both of your characters looking for support right after finding out, you know, what can also happen in a marriage. And, yeah. I'm just curious what either of you thinks your characters really thought about divorce at that time. It's complicated. Yeah.

[Cynthia Nixon]

And I think there's a moment that I love so much when we are, of course, horrified and devastated on Aurora's behalf. But then Marian turns to both of us and says, well, you'll still be welcome here. And we're both kind of like, well, you know, not really. I mean, welcome here privately, but not. And I think it's a wonderful moment of even Ada, who is an idealist and, you know, even she knows.

[Tom Myers]

But that's the reality. And, you know, I think Agnes is the realist. This is the way the world works. And you probably wouldn't be comfortable, she says to her niece, the way she says it is you wouldn't be comfortable in this situation.

[Cynthia Nixon]

It's a kind way. But what she really means is our friends wouldn't come if you're here.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And it's so sad that it's the women who have to bear the brunt, even if they.

[Cynthia Nixon]

Even if they're not the ones who want to be divorced. Yeah.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, we're so excited to be back for a third season. Let the Sober circus begin.

[Christine Baranski]

Oh, the sober circus.

[Cynthia Nixon]

Yes.

[Tom Myers]

And then let it end.

[Alicia Malone]

Thank you so much.

[Tom Myers]

Thank you.

[Cynthia Nixon]

It was a pleasure.

[Christine Baranski]

Wow. That was so cool. I don't know about you, Alicia, but I felt like I was sitting in the Van Rhijn house with Aunt Agnes and Aunt Ada, just, like, hanging out in their front room.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah, I felt the same way. I mean, as we walked into that room, these two were gossiping with each other. Christine and Cynthia. You can tell that they have a great friendship. They've known each other for a long time. They have a lot of fun together on set and off. And it was great to get to sit down with them in person, because last time we had to talk to them separately and on Zoom, which was great. But this time, to have them together in front of us. What a treat.

[Christine Baranski]

Absolutely. But we're not done yet.

[Alicia Malone]

No, we're not. And, you know, I wish we got to sit down with Lord Julian Fellowes in person. I'm still waiting for that day where we get to meet him. But as has become our tradition every season, we start with an interview for episode one with Lord Julian Fellowes, the creator, writer and executive producer of the Gilded Age. Here he is. Well, Lord Julian Fellowes, it's so nice to talk to you again about the Gilded Age. How are you doing?

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Well, it's very nice to be back. And I don't think we would have known the last time that we would be here to celebrate the launch of the third series.

[Alicia Malone]

I know, it's so exciting. And now that we're into season three, you know, Tom and I were trying to figure out when this season takes place. Are we right in guessing that it's 1884?

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

It's 1880, yes. Either three or four. I've forgotten. Really. I ought to be the person who's an authority on all that kind of thing. I never remember anything, but I think we're about 84. Yes, something like that.

[Christine Baranski]

Well, putting it in 1884, you know, it allows you to bring in some actual historical events that took place then, such as the financial panic of 1884. And we see. Already we're talking about episode one here. And we see that come into the storyline when George Russell gets that telegram when he's in Morenci, you know, that things are happening to banks back in New York. He is out of there. He gets up and leaves. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

I think that we wanted to keep very much the spirit that the Gilded Age wasn't only a time when you made a fast fortune, it was also a time when you could very easily lose one. And people were going up and down like a Tito dumb all round you. And, you know, on the whole, this was a, you know, dangerous and overused word, but this was a society when you were living on the edge all the time. And, you know, one minute you were living like the nobility at Versailles, and the next minute you'd hardly have part left. And that was just how it was. I mean, they were almost unrestricted in terms of regulations and insider dealing and all of these phrases that mean something to us but nothing to them. And they were just chugging along, you know, making as much money as they could and living in this extraordinary way that they decided they were the new Renaissance princes. They were the people to show the world how it was done.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Speaking of that, you know, Bertha is often reflective of Alva Vanderbilt. And this season we see how Bertha's ambitions for marrying Gladys to the Duke are just getting bigger and bigger. She's determined to make it happen. So for you, what was the aspect of Consuelo's story that you were most interested in?

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

I always have a soft spot for people who have impossible dreams and then go on to make them happen. And really, the Gilded Age was a period that dealt in impossible dreams, that a great many of these men and women came from perfectly ordinary backgrounds, you know, in some town, not anywhere near New York, and suddenly there they were, on top of the world. And I think, really, in a way, I mean, of course, there were many dukes who were lassoed into marrying Gilded Age heiresses, many marquesses and many earls, too. There was something like 600 of these girls who arrived in England and Paris and lassoed their titles.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And it's also interesting that this season seems to be exploring the idea of love match versus arranged marriage and whether actually a love match is better than an arranged marriage.

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Well, I think now we're more inclined to take a more sort of balanced view of that. When I was young and there were still arranged marriages, you know, in a great many parts of the world, and yet we thought it was a terrible thing. We all wanted to be starring in our own Hollywood film, you know, starring Troy Donahue and Sandra Dee, and everything was to end in love and a kiss. But I don't think now that we're quite so blanket in our condemnation for different people doing things a different way. And certainly while I think an arranged marriage perhaps usually one can never make absolute judgments, but usually lacks perhaps, a touch of romance that is part of a love match, as we like to call them, I think that's true. But I also think that an arranged marriage is likely to avoid the misery of a love match that has gone wrong. And so I think we can take a more, you know, balanced view of a different way of doing things now.

[Christine Baranski]

And, you know, we're only in episode one, so we really don't know where you're taking this and how tightly you're sticking to the sort of Alva Consuelo storyline as well. And that will be very interesting to see how that plays out. But I'm listening to you talk about, you know, characters who are very, very ambitious, and they also seem to be so concerned about their legacy at this point and leaving a mark. Is that because they've come from not much, as you just said, from very humble origins. And suddenly they have everything and they want to leave I don't know their name more than their name behind.

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Yes. I think, you know, one always wants to beware of generalizing in these kind of things, but But I think it is interesting that so many of them were concerned with their legacy at the end because I think it has a certain parallel with us today. I think you see a lot of today's multimillionaires suddenly going into a terrible whiz about some, you know, whatever it is that they want to develop or give to some nation or other. Because there is something about a life lived purely for the acquisition of a great fortune that seems hollow and they want to fill that hollowness. And I think it was exactly the same with the great robber barons of the Gilded Age. I think, you know, you look at the Frick collection, a marvelous, marvelous collection in the heart of New York. And in fact, Frick was a ruthless man who was prepared to open fire on his own workers. But he felt the need to bury that beneath the image of the art collector who brought a wonderful collection to his capital city. I mean, the same is true of Carnegie who again, you know, now we think of Carnegie, we think of libraries and music halls and, you know, great concerts and so on and so forth. And we are tempted to say what a benevolent man Carnegie must have been. But in fact he was ruthless. He was considered the most ruthless of the robber barons. And he also was perfectly happy to open fire on his own workforce. But at the end that wasn't quite what they wanted to be remembered for. They wanted to be remembered for something good.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah. And you know, George Russell is still in his prime. Obviously he's still acquiring this fortune. But we see a tension there in this episode between George and Clay when Clay says, isn't it enough to have palaces in New York and Newport, you know, without Jay Gould breathing down your neck? Was that enough for George? It doesn't seem like it's enough for him. Why do you think it isn't?

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

I mean, I mustn't tell you too much or I'll be told that's true. I think that George, like many others, is going through that question. I mean, he set out to be enormously rich and he is enormously rich. He's come from a background that is reasonably prosperous but not news making in any way. His wife has come from a more humble background than that. And together they've decided they're going to muscle in, they're going to take over New York, they're going to lead and so on. But when you've done that, when you've achieved that, is it enough? It's rather like stardom, you know, with a film star. I often, I'm sure you wonder Certainly other people in our audience, when you are an enormous, enormous star, when you're Barbra Streisand, when you're Robert Redford, when millions of people all over the world just want to listen to you sing, want to listen to you talk, want to watch you move, that's enough. And when it's you, when you're the person that's doing it, is it enough?

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Well, it's interesting you say that because Oscar, we see he's struggling with his financial situation. He says he was born to be rich, basically, and not born to make a fortune. And then you have Jack or John the footman, who could be on the cusp of achieving wealth with his invention. So this era really does not only offer big risks with people losing fortunes, but a lot of big opportunities for people to become upwardly mobile.

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

And I think from early on, America realized that they didn't have time to spend four generations getting into the top set. You know, they were moving more quickly than that. And that, in a way, one of the most interesting things is the people who saw that. I mean, Mrs. Astor, who I, you know, I've searched for anything she's written or said that's particularly interesting, and I haven't really found anything but something about her. She knew that the society that she was being encouraged to make and spread, to model it on Europe for it to be old money, for it to be all of this stuff, she knew somewhere in her that it wouldn't work for America. America needed something that moved quickly and was more exciting and that within one generation you could start off, you know, as a cobbler's assistant and end up as a banker. And that this was a whole new version of being rich and a whole new version of being in society and what the phrase one uses. And that really came to fruition, but then, of course, developed during the Gilded Age and led into the 20th century, and in fact, the century that America would dominate. I mean, the 20th century was the American century. And all of that I found absolutely fascinating, actually.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. Because Jack's storyline seems to really represent the idea of the American dream. Right. It is a very American idea.

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Well, I think Jack is the American dream, because in England, I mean, you know, one mustn't be too absolute. And as the century, the 19th century wore on, it did become more possible in England and indeed in Europe to make your mark. If you invented this or you invented that, and, you know, certainly it was possible to be rich. And you could in the north and the Midlands, these centers, as it were then of manufacture, you could be a very prominent figure, but you couldn't really be prominent in London. It was hard in London if there was no history backing you up. It was very hard to get through to the top. Whereas Jack for me is an American phenomenon in that he starts out at the bottom. I don't quite know what the bottom is, but he's a footman in a perfectly ordinary lower upper house and he does his job and he's getting on with it. And then he makes this discovery and gradually it becomes clear to him that all sorts of doors are opening and it's up to him to decide whether he goes through them and whether he takes advantage of them or not. But that was an American journey, that was an American adventure.

[Christine Baranski]

I think it's interesting, you know, you're talking about fortunes that are made, relatively speaking, overnight. I mean, the Russell fortune coming from humble beginnings and then dominating industry and New York society. But meanwhile, across the street we have Agnes van Rhijn and Ada Brooke, who represent something else have in season one and season two. But then at the end of season two, you sort of pull the rug out from under us here and there's this great reversal of fortunes. In a way, you could say that Ada's fortune is made overnight, a discovery is made, and the dynamics inside that house change completely overnight.

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Well, I think that for me, that was an interesting thing to explore. How often you find people, I mean, we've all known this, all three of us, where someone does much better than they were expected to and others much worse. And it's, you know, the stars of your drama school are very seldom the stars of your career later on. And people say, oh, no, it won't change me at all, of course, won't have any effect on my behavior at all. But of course it does. It's a complete lie to say it doesn't change you. And when one of the people that you knew casually and you know, you thought of as a friend rather than a not a friend, but no more than that, suddenly becomes a billionaire and they're doing this, this and this, they become more interesting to you.

[Christine Baranski]

How do you think, Agnes? I mean, I suppose we'll have to wait and see. It's only episode one. But it does certainly seem like she is struggling with this new dynamic that's in place and with the fact that her sister is now seemingly calling the shots.

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Well, I think Agnes is a classic example of one of those people who would say that their material position didn't affect them at all. They just, they were who they were, this is the house they lived in, everything's fine. But of course she has to learn the hard way that in fact no longer being in charge, no longer having the authority of paying everyone's wages, no longer being the king of the castle has affected her badly and I think it will be very difficult for Agnes to adjust as we will no doubt.

[Alicia Malone]

Show and we hear that Marian has a new teaching job. She's not afraid to defend it to Agnes and she just seems to be coming more and more into herself with each season. Do you still see Marian as being the audience's conduit or has that changed?

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

I like to think that the audience choose their own condit really there are plenty of characters in these shows and I think some of them appeal to him and some appeal to her and that's, you know, everyone has their own favourites in the show. That's what I like to think anyway. We, we have a tendency to think we sort of invented clever and ambitious women, which of course is nonsense. There have been clever and ambitious women as long as there have been women. It's just they've had to deal with the restrictions and the restraints of different societies and they've had to find their way around them. I mean, that in a way is what makes period drama interesting, is that the central female characters are always to a certain extent having to kind of box and cox their way around the society in which they live and get round the restrictions on what they can do and all that sort of thing. But I like to, you know, I suppose if I can find women in who really existed in society who managed to get their own way and to do what they had come to do, then, you know, I'm always pleased. I mean, I think that that adds a certain modernity to the struggle.

[Alicia Malone]

And then we see with poor Aurora Fane how getting divorced can destroy a woman's reputation at this time. I mean, even when it wasn't her fault.

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Yes, the business of fault is comparatively recent. I mean, now we talk of no fault divorces and so on and so forth but really, even when I was a child, and although that's a long way away for you, it isn't so far away that it's unimaginable that even then there was a curious injustice in the fact that being divorced was the crime. No one really looked into the causes much and they didn't really want to know the details, to be honest. On the whole, the mere fact was you were chosen badly. It had gone worse and now, you were a divorced person, and that was not looked on with approval. And, you know, you say quite rightly that, you know, you could be the innocent party and so on.

[Christine Baranski]

It's so fun to hear you talk about that because, I mean, we have been reading about Alva and Consuela. We've been sort of obviously studying up on this topic, but we've only seen episode one here, so we don't know how far you're gonna stick to what happened in history or how much you're going to dance around it and play with it. That must be really fun for you when you're sitting down with this and you have history in front of you and you get to decide what to do with it and how you're gonna play with it.

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Yes.

[Christine Baranski]

Short answer.

[Alicia Malone]

I was reading an interview with Carrie Coon, who said that she's really excited about season three because all of the setup and the exposition has already been done for each of the characters. They know their characters really well. So now it's all about pure storytelling. I was wondering if you feel the same way. Is there a joy in a season three?

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Well, I think it's very interesting to write a series. I mean, I deliberately write for the actors now because I know what they can do really well. And so the further you get in, the more, if you like, the characters are the joint creation of you and the players, and you want, quite deliberately giving them a scene that will make the audience cry or another one that will make them laugh. And you have a confidence in that. By the time you're writing a third series that you didn't have at the very beginning, you hope they'll do this, you hope they'll do that. But I think actually we gathered together an extraordinary cast. I think it was partly because Michael Engler is one of our producers and directors, was also very involved in Broadway, and a lot of the stage actors of Broadway were sitting at home during the pandemic, you know, watching afternoon television. And he said, let's get him. Let's get them in. And so a lot of them came into the show and I think gave the show real style, a real kind of glamour. I don't know if you can still use that word, but I'm very grateful for that. And I. And I think we have an extraordinary cast, and I hope in season three we've used them well and we've given them stuff to do that they've done well.

[Christine Baranski]

Well, we're already, you know, we're so into the drama that has been Heightened already in this first episode. And we also laughed quite a bit in this episode. Hearing you talk about that. I'm wondering what it is like to write those zingers that you write for Christine Baranski's character, because do you hear her delivering it in your head as you're typing those out?

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Oh, yes, I think so. Yes. Yes. I mean, those sort of lines, they've got to be funny, but not quite nasty. Almost nasty, but not absolutely nasty. And so there's a real skill in that, you know, and some actors can do it and others cannot. And while I wouldn't name the canots, I'm very happy to name Christine as one of the ones who can. And she knows how to make those lines funny. And you can laugh without feeling guilty at laughing. And I think Maggie was the same, Maggie Smith was the same, that she could make those lines very funny without them being nasty and that, you know, I'm very grateful to both of them.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, I know we have to wait to hear if there's gonna be a season four, but is that something you're already thinking about? Do you already have ideas in your head?

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Yes, yes. I don't really believe in not thinking about it. I mean, I think that we're like squirrels. You know, we have our pouch and we just put all these ideas in, and if we can't play them out in this show, then we can in some other.

[Christine Baranski]

I remember when we spoke to you at the beginning of season two, we spoke about the Opera wars storyline, which, of course is something that actually happened in 1883. Is there something. I mean, we're getting some hints here already in episode one. Are there particular storylines that you are excited about, historical storylines that we can look forward to in the season?

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

John, what makes you so adorable is that you must have asked these questions so many times and have no reasonable answer given back. And yet still you try, and of course you have to. I understand that completely, but I'll give you nothing.

[Christine Baranski]

You'll give me nothing? Okay. We will have to wait and see.

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

I hope that some of the stories are exciting to the audience, and I hope they enjoy following them through. And some of them are based on reality, and others are based on what I hope is the artificial reality of a created character. That that's as much as I'll say.

[Christine Baranski]

Really, Ben, here we are in season three. Have you been surprised at all by the success of the Gilded Age and the fact that American audiences want to seem to want to explore this period in their own history?

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Well, I'M very pleased because I'm very interested by American history. I find the whole of the Gilded Age, its pluses and its minuses, leading into what we would think of as the Gatsby era and then, you know, the First World War, all of that I find fascinating. But it saddened me in the past how sometimes my American friends are not as interested in their own history as they ought to be. And I'm pleased if this shows, indicates that Americans are a little, at least, interested in their history and how they got to be who they are, because America is unlike any other country on Earth. Now, at the moment, America is going through a period rather like the Western Europe countries, of bashing itself over the head for all the terrible things it's done. But that will pass. And the fact is, yes, America, I'm sure, has done terrible things, but it's also done wonderful things and it's made wonderful advances. And I feel at the moment, that's got lost a bit. But a study of American history will bring it back. And all sorts of aspects of thinking, of attitudes, of prejudice in the modern world have been influenced for the better by America and by its unique origins. And so, you know, all of that leads me to be optimistic in the face of all the evidence.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, we're certainly interested. It's only episode one and we are in and we're so excited for what's to come. So, Lord Julian Fellowes, thank you so much for joining us.

[Lord Julian Fellowes]

Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed it, even if I've been hopeless at giving you the answers you wanted.

[Alicia Malone]

No, you're very good. Thank you.

[Christine Baranski]

You even gave us a little optimism about our own country. Thank you.

[Alicia Malone]

Well, Tom, once again we get to speak with Lord Julian Fellowes. He is such a lovely guy, and you can tell that he really enjoys talking about American history and writing about it in the show.

[Christine Baranski]

Yeah, absolutely. I love the way that he takes American history, real history, and how he, you know, weaves in a little bit of fiction, how he plays around with the characters and creates this show that it's great to say audiences are really responding to.

[Alicia Malone]

Yeah. And I'm excited because it's only episode one, so we have plenty more to come. And, Tom, that's it for us. But we'll be back soon with another episode of the Official Gilded Age Podcast.

[Christine Baranski]

Thanks for listening. This has been the Official Gilded Age Podcast, written, hosted and produced by Alicia Malone and me, Tom Myers.

[Alicia Malone]

The podcast is a production of HBO in collaboration with Pod People for Pod.

[Christine Baranski]

People Our supervising Producer is Rebecca Chasson, associate Producer is Sam Gabauer, and Video editor is Kai Lee. Special thanks to Hannah Pedersen and Amy.

[Alicia Malone]

Machado for HBO Podcasts. Our Executive Producer is Michael Gluckstadt and Associate producer Producer is Erin Kelly.