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- [00:07]
Jefferson White
Hey, everyone, it's Jefferson White here. And if you're hearing my voice, you know you're listening to the one, the only, the official Yellowstone podcast. And of course, what would this show be without my amazing co host, Jen Landon?
- [00:24]
Jen Landon
Jeff, you seem really excited today.
- [00:27]
Jefferson White
Yeah, I'm jazzed up. The 1923 season finale was insane. I'm stoked. I'm still buzzing.
- [00:33]
Jen Landon
I know it was major. I felt like. I felt like it was every big event in history in one episode.
- [00:39]
Jefferson White
It's really wild. This show has traveled. A lot has happened. There's a lot to talk about. We're gonna dig real deep into it, and so just know that if you haven't seen all of 1923, you are entering into spoiler territory. You've been warned. And. And because we're doing a deep dive, we're bringing in a heavy hitter, some professional help to straighten us out and keep us on track. We have, once again, we are very, very lucky to have our dear friend Lynette Rice from deadline.com joining us today.
- [01:12]
Jen Landon
I am so looking forward to this episode. But first, we need to step aside really quick and take a break. We will be.
- [01:32]
Jefferson White
Incredible episode of 1923 this week. A lot to unpack, a lot to explore, a lot to talk about. And in order to talk about it from an informed, thoughtful, conscientious, journalistic perspective, we brought in our ringer. Lynette, thank you so much for being here.
- [01:52]
Lynette Rice
Again, heavy journalism here, bringing the heavy journalism to this Yellowstone podcast.
- [01:57]
Jefferson White
I think of you as the Spencer Dutton of entertainment news.
- [02:01]
Lynette Rice
That's a compliment.
- [02:02]
Jefferson White
Yeah. You are to stories what Spencer Dutton is to every animal on the continent of Africa.
- [02:10]
Lynette Rice
Wowie. Well, I hope you think. I'm sorry, Hunting them. Am I as hot as Spencer Dutton? That's what I really want to know.
- [02:16]
Jen Landon
I don't think you understand, like, what a compliment. Like, it's a compliment in and of itself, but I don't know if you know, like, how much of a compliment it is. Jeff hasn't stopped talking about Spencer Dutton for, like, five or six weeks now. And not just on air, really. Like, I get random texts like, do you really think. Do you think, Spencer. Do you think I can be cool like that? I mean, we both are obsessed.
- [02:40]
Jefferson White
He's given me a complex. I watched the show with my fiance, and this is what I think my therapist would probably call projection, because I'm kind of watching her watch the show and projecting onto her the idea that I'll never be the man that Spencer Dutton is. I'M not even. I'm not even Alex's old fiance, the Duke of whatever, because that guy at least had the balls to challenge Spencer Dutton. I am walking away from that conflict.
- [03:08]
Lynette Rice
I think. So that's the right call. That dude should not have called for a duel. It was so stupid, but it was great tv.
- [03:16]
Jefferson White
As soon as he called for the duel, I was like, this dude's going off the boat. This dude is going headfirst off the boat. That's the only way this ends. You think you're gonna get Spencer Dutton when an African elephant couldn't?
- [03:27]
Jen Landon
Yeah, Yeah. I felt bad for Arthur. Like, I mean, I feel bad for him now that he died, but I felt bad for him before that. Do you know what I mean?
- [03:38]
Lynette Rice
I didn't at all. I didn't at all. I was so glad that she ran up with them. And what an incredible way to set up for the second season. Setting up so many stakes, so many places to go. It's been a great ride.
- [03:51]
Jefferson White
I'm always amazed at how different all the shows are. You know, they're dealing with some of the same subject matter, but the tone is so dramatically different. This. This is such a, like, adventure series in such an exciting way. I think the tones of the shows are in part defined by the era in which they take place. Place. You know, 1883 was such a, like, honest to God, faithful Western. And 1923 has this feeling of this big, open world, which is what it must have felt like to be alive at that time. This moment of discovery, of exploration. It's such a. There's such a kind of adventurous tone to it. I can't help but feel like that's informed by the decade. So, speaking of which, we've touched on Spencer and Alexandra's epic journey back home to the ranch. Let's talk a little bit about what's going on at the ranch and whether or not there will be a ranch there by the time Spencer gets there, which at this point could take him.
- [04:48]
Lynette Rice
Years even before we get into, like, the Dutton part of it, which is in itself has been so juicy. When I joined the show, that's all I expected, that we were just going to live there. We were going to live at Yellowstone and hear this story. And so what has been so great about this journey is that that was just one third, and then you've got these two other stories that I didn't expect to love so much. And, you know, there's obviously the romance with our beloved Spencer and Alex, and then this whole other Story frightening, scary ass storyline with the Catholics and the way they treated the indigenous women. And every week it's something more horrific that's been so incredible. It's like just when. And you know, he. He cuts to that world and then we're just getting into it and then boom, you know, we go someplace else. What a master. A class in like keeping the story flowing, good editing and not making us feel lost. I never have once felt lost. So yeah, I wanted to be able to say that at the ranch. Jacob at this point doesn't seem quite as ruthless as what the family develops into as the decades go by. And so I'm wondering if this is going to be a changing point for the kind of man that Jacob is because he seems like he's for the most part by the law. Do you think?
- [06:20]
Jefferson White
Well, that conflict rages within him because they did string those guys up via vigilante justice early on. It feels like he's torn between this old world justice and this new world justice. And it feels like, you know, Donald Whitfield is trying to use this kind of cool, impartial, you know, logical mode of attack. And Jacob feels caught between these two things. You know, he's. He's got a little bit of Jack Dutton in him that, you know, the desire for revenge. And he's also got a little bit of that cool, calm, impartial, perhaps Cara Dutton energy.
- [06:56]
Jen Landon
The Donald Whitfield character feels capable of true ruthlessness where Jacob, because he's so heart centered, even if it is vengeance and it looks like ruthlessness outwardly, it can't be. It's not cold enough, it's not disconnected enough, it's not heady enough.
- [07:11]
Lynette Rice
Now that we're in the Dutton household, I do want to give a shout out to that moment where we see Elizabeth. She lost her baby and she's lying in bed with her Jack, played by Darren Mann. And that has to be his best scene from this season. First of all, he was the total dream man in that moment, making her feel better about losing her kid and just saying all the right things. And while he doesn't rise to Spencer level, for me, he got dang close in that moment.
- [07:42]
Jefferson White
I totally agree. I thought that really showcased a whole different kind of journey. You know, Spencer's been on this like geographical journey. But to me, Jack has grown so much. It felt like when we first met him, he was a kid. You know, he was a sort of impetuous, angry kid ready to run off for revenge, ready to neglect his larger responsibilities. But I Couldn't agree with you more. I thought that was an incredibly well acted scene that also showcased a lot of growth from the character. It feels like Jack has been on this journey of growth. He's been one of the very few characters who stay in one place physically over the course of the season. But it feels like he's really grown into a man in an amazing way.
- [08:27]
Lynette Rice
Why did Taylor take her baby? Like, was he trying to set up. This is what ranch life is going to be like, honey, and, you know, get ready for it.
- [08:36]
Jen Landon
I appreciate what Taylor is doing in terms of approaching, like, one just, like, honoring, like, how painful that is for women. And, you know, like, that's a perspective that, like, he doesn't necessarily need to, like, tap into and he does it. And I think it's really valuable and really important, but then also to carry it into the fact that, like, your whole value as a woman isn't just, like, having a kid. That, like, that is not the only way that you mother and I thought that was really just very cool of him to put in.
- [09:12]
Lynette Rice
Well, I wonder if he's also trying to throw us off because all of us are trying to figure out the family tree. We want to know who's related to who. And if he keeps throwing us off with this, then we won't figure out the math, the bloodline, who is the true grandfather of John Dutton. And so. And that's what's so fun to talk to the actors about, because they're having the same dang conversation. They're doing their own family trees on set, and they don't know either. So do you guys know? Do you know?
- [09:44]
Jen Landon
I don't know.
- [09:45]
Jefferson White
We don't know anything.
- [09:47]
Jen Landon
Yeah, we don't know. I also have to tell you, personally, I don't care. Like, I don't. Like, I don't need to know who the dad is. Like, I care in so much as, like, maybe being invested in who dies.
- [10:02]
Jefferson White
Jen, I could argue with you about this all day because I'm a compassionate, empathetic person. But let's take a break really quick, and when we come back, we'll keep getting into it. You're right to identify that what matters is who is going to survive the action, the events of 1923, because they basically. It was like a clean cut on 1883. So we're all sort of rooting for our respected. The main goal of figuring out who Costner's predecessors are figuring out. Oh, God. Who's gonna survive. I wanna believe that all these characters are gonna make it through. But based on the model of 1883, that would be 99.
- [10:55]
Jen Landon
We could all die.
- [10:57]
Lynette Rice
It makes it fun. It just makes it all fun. That's what it was fun watching House of the Dragon. You wanna know the relation to the later characters that we met in Game of Thrones? It just makes the viewing experience that much more fun to tie it all together. And so we can look for those little Easter eggs. We can look for those signs in a character. Like any little gesture, the way they say something, is that something that's carried on into the bloodline. I mean, it's. It's. Yeah, it's not brain surgery, but it's fun stuff. It's the fun stuff.
- [11:31]
Jefferson White
Speaking of brain surgery, how about Tiana Rainwater's absolute killing spree as she, you know, seeks to escape her captivity? So the brain surgery connection is watching her absolutely dismantle that man's brain with a rock. That was. That was graphic, but also gratifying. I got to say, watching her sort of. It does feel like she's on this incredible. Like, you know, Spencer is on a journey, Tiana is on a journey and being pursued the entire way by these kind of ruthless captors. So it's so fun watching her escape and also kind of get vengeance. You know, there's this real spirit of vengeance feeling to the whole thing that I. I cherish after those first few episodes when she was stuck in the residential school, being absolutely abused and traumatized and taken advantage of. It's a really gratifying thing to see her out in the open air, you know, escaping and on. On her own terms. She had a beautiful line this episode. She said, they've been trying to kill me since they took me. I don't believe in later. I believe in right now. I thought that was so powerful. That actor's also fucking amazing. I'm amazed by her every episode. Amina, she rocks.
- [12:51]
Lynette Rice
This is. God, this is something that I would just love to have dinner with Taylor about and why he decided to go down this road. I can recall after the first episode when all of a sudden the action veered to that school and it was so violent. And I remember reading message boards and it was hard on viewers, and they were like, what the hell just happened?
- [13:11]
Jefferson White
Yeah, I think we spoke with Mo brings plenty a couple weeks ago about this kind of the responsibility, to be honest, in our depictions of this time period, a responsibility and obligation to honestly confront this incredibly painful history, because it is. It is brutal. It's hard to watch sometimes. I found that to be the case in 1883, in 1923, for sure. And part of it is this sort of honest, clear eyed reckoning with our history, you know, and that's all there is to it. And I also, I feel for the actors involved in this because as hard as it is to watch, I'm sure it is. It takes an incredible toll to reenact this brutal history on both sides of the equation. But I also salute and admire their commitment to honesty and to sort of bringing whatever humanity they can to these incredibly difficult, painful circumstances. So good on them. And also, especially now that Tiana's out of there and kind of, you know, getting some revenge. It is, particularly now it's taken a turn in a way that I enjoy. I really look forward to her stuff now. For the first few episodes, they were incredibly well done. I would sort of cringe when we would cut to her stuff because I was fucking terrified to confront that history. I was terrified to see what would happen next. But now that she's out on the open road, I'm really looking forward to it and I'm really looking forward to seeing what's next because we know that Priest is getting his fucking just desserts, right? I'm like, bro, you should get off that horse, turn around, go home and forget about Tiana. You don't want to catch up to her. All I want to say to that guy is, bro, don't catch up to her. That's a mistake.
- [14:55]
Lynette Rice
I'm afraid they're going to find her. They're. They're told that the dude that signed on with them, they're going to find her.
- [15:01]
Jefferson White
I'm afraid for them that they're gonna find her. I'm not afraid for her. Oh, yeah, they shouldn't find her. They should let that one go because that's bad news for them. She's a killer. I think she's far. I mean, it's gonna also be pretty gratifying to watch them get exactly what they have coming. But if I were them, I would go home, let this one go. Yeah.
- [15:21]
Jen Landon
Speaking of, like, brutal things that, and I mean, one that I didn't know about at all, but when the Montana State Police. Police come and arrest Alice Chow for miscegenation.
- [15:34]
Jefferson White
Yeah, just when Zayn got some fun shit, too. I've been waiting for Zane. That's my buddy Brian Garrity, who's like one of the best actors on the planet. And just when he got to take off his hat, you get to. You get to take off your Hat. You get to sit down at a table, you get to do a little bit of dialogue. Finally. Finally getting Zane's inner life.
- [15:51]
Lynette Rice
And he got busy in the shower, too. He had, like, a little nude scene there.
- [15:55]
Jen Landon
He was saving water.
- [15:57]
Jefferson White
Yeah, Lynette, come on. Grow up.
- [15:59]
Jen Landon
They were. Lynette, they were. There's a drought in Montana.
- [16:03]
Lynette Rice
Grow up.
- [16:07]
Jefferson White
But just when we get to see this other side of Zane, which I'm so excited about, of course, Classic Taylor. You get a little bit of good stuff, and then you got to take your medicine. So. Yeah. Amazing, amazing sequence. Also. These goddamn. These goddamn henchmen. This dude with the beard sort of stalking around observing everybody. Being a narc. That guy's going to get it, too. Talk about brain surgery. I think that guy's got a special. He's got a little meeting with Jack Dutton sometime down the line where Jack Dutton will finally get to exorcise some of his demons.
- [16:39]
Lynette Rice
That's all tied to Donald Whitfield, right? All those henchmen that came and got him, is that all tied back to Timothy Dalton's character somehow?
- [16:49]
Jefferson White
Exactly. Yeah. He. Well, it seems like Timothy Dalton had sent his. His henchmen to sort of spy on Zane. Zane fought that henchman, followed Zane back to his house, and then reported him to the police. So. So it was, you know, it was legal. What they were doing in separating that family was tragically legal, but it was Donald Whitfield who sort of orchestrated bringing that to the authorities. Attention.
- [17:13]
Lynette Rice
So sad. All right, should we jump to Spencer? Can we jump to Spencer now? Can we go on the boat? The ship.
- [17:19]
Jefferson White
Let's get into it. Spencer and Alex, they're further along on their journey than they've ever been. They finally got a little bit of comfort for once. They're, like, riding on this big, amazing ship. They're not having to hoof it through the wilderness. They're actually sort of, it would seem, full steam ahead towards their final destination. When, of course, some gets in the way.
- [17:42]
Lynette Rice
Well, I've enjoyed this trip. I. It's thrown me off because I didn't think it would take them this long to get home. But it makes sense because it's not, you know, an overnight trip. So I've enjoyed that. It's taken so long. It's nice to see them in clean clothes. And that dress. When she walked out of her room wearing that bejeweled number, oh, my God, she looked like a million bucks. I love that. Just loved it.
- [18:10]
Jefferson White
Alex's ex. Awkward. Alex's ex is on the boat. Too. He can't quite swallow his pride, so he challenges Spencer Dutton to a duel. What are you thinking?
- [18:21]
Lynette Rice
I liked how they set that up, too, in that he said to the dad, you don't want to have your son do this, because I could kill him. And, I mean, I really appreciated that moment, too, but, you know, him being who he is, you know, the masculine side of him took over and said, okay, fine. I'll. I'll. I'll do the duel. I. I loved how quickly it ended in that first round. He just punched him and took him down, and I thought that would be the end of it.
- [18:49]
Jefferson White
Yeah, he fucking grabbed the sword. He wrapped a towel around his hand and grabbed the sword. That's pretty cool. Yeah. The dad was trying to be a voice of reason. I appreciated that. The dad was like, son, this guy's a total badass. This guy's the son that I never had. Please don't let him kill you for your own sake, because that's going to be embarrassing. And his son still couldn't quite. Still couldn't quite muster the dignity to just run away. And he got his ass thrown off the ship. And those are tall ships. Every shot of that ship, I'm like, that's a tall ship.
- [19:25]
Lynette Rice
So I'm assuming they didn't find him then, right?
- [19:27]
Jefferson White
He's dead. Yeah. They say. They say later.
- [19:28]
Jen Landon
He does the bad thing about. The bad thing about a ship like that. Sorry. Is the motor is really strong. Right. So you go off a ship next to it. It pulls you down, and you get pulled. Yeah.
- [19:40]
Lynette Rice
So it's over.
- [19:42]
Jefferson White
We got to take a quick break. We'll be right back.
- [19:55]
Lynette Rice
I didn't see that coming. I mean, I knew this was not gonna go well, but I didn't see it coming to where he would throw off. He would throw him off the ship, and then there was, like, no turning back there, too.
- [20:06]
Jefferson White
Spencer really tried not to. I also respected that Spencer, the logical part of him, really tried not to get in this fight. It took. It took this guy calling Alex a whore for Spencer to even accept the duel in the first place. He knocked him down a few times, not kicked his sword away. Really tried to not have to kill him, and the guy just couldn't accept it. Yeah.
- [20:33]
Jen Landon
Yeah. Spencer also, like, didn't even want to leave the room. He's like, what happened to that plant?
- [20:37]
Lynette Rice
Right.
- [20:37]
Jen Landon
Yeah, I was really with him on that. I was also, like, a little bit like, come on, don't rub it in little Arthur's face. Baby Arthur boy, like, Come on.
- [20:46]
Lynette Rice
She was ready to be a woman. She didn't want to be. She wanted to be a woman. I guess that's.
- [20:51]
Jen Landon
She's like, we. I don't. I don't want to hide it anymore, but, like, how long are you really hiding it?
- [20:55]
Lynette Rice
Right.
- [20:55]
Jen Landon
Like, if you've been hiding it that long. Please. I've hid things for 20 years.
- [20:58]
Lynette Rice
Right. All right. Did you guys. Did you guys see him flash the gun? That scene went so fast. I didn't see the gun.
- [21:08]
Jefferson White
Oh, you sort of pulled out something. It was a little hard to tell. It was a quick. He kind of rushed him from behind and was carrying something in his right hand.
- [21:15]
Lynette Rice
Right. Well, that was such a brilliant setup to set up, obviously, more stakes for the two of them. And it gave us that great final moment of them yelling at each other across the water, I love you. I love you. Which was pretty dang romantic.
- [21:31]
Jefferson White
Yeah, that was. That was really powerful.
- [21:33]
Jen Landon
It was really beautiful also. What did they say? Somebody commented on it that, like, though the marriage might be hard to prove, the.
- [21:42]
Jefferson White
Yeah, you can't question their sincerity or something like that.
- [21:46]
Jen Landon
It's beautiful.
- [21:48]
Jefferson White
So back on the continental United States of America. Back in North America.
- [21:55]
Jen Landon
Wait, you guys, real quick, before we leave this. I'm so sorry. Like, besides yelling, I love you, she holds up, I believe the letters, and says, I will see you in Bozeman. I will see you in Bozeman, Montana, which is setting us up for this storyline in the next season of 1923 that we know we get right where these two lovers are going to be on these journeys solo, an incredibly dangerous one, completely on their own. I mean, whether we'll see that or not, but that is what's gonna happen.
- [22:25]
Lynette Rice
Yeah. I have to think now it's gonna be. This is gonna be split in fours, and so we're gonna watch her journey to get to Bozeman and watch what happens to him. And where did they land, by the way? Do we know where they landed?
- [22:38]
Jefferson White
They'd only traveled, like, one day. They had been on the coast of Italy before, and they'd only traveled for, like, one day. So he got. He didn't get K out very far away from where they had been previously.
- [22:49]
Jen Landon
Also, I know that I might have said earlier that I'm not all that concerned about, like, who's the parent of whom, but I do care about who dies. In the event we find out in, like, the first episode of the next season that Alexandra is pregnant or something, like, all bets are off in terms of, like, Spencer's safety, right, or who's who or, like the concern about that. Do you know what I mean?
- [23:14]
Jefferson White
Spencer's the only guy I'm not worried about. Nothing's bringing down Spencer.
- [23:17]
Lynette Rice
Well, this is a great love, and no great love lasts forever. So I don't think this union is in it for the long haul. Somebody's going to die.
- [23:26]
Jefferson White
Speaking of great love, Lynette, how about Kara and Jacob? She's been nursing him back to health. He's now sort of back up on his feet. He's kind of capable of once again taking responsibility for the ranch. This episode opens, I believe, in this incredible courtroom scene where Banner has been arrested. But there's this. He. He's immediately released because there's this kind of complicated relationship between vigilante justice and the law at this point. So their. Their. Their argument is, hey, a few days before Banner shot Jacob, Jacob strung up Banner and left him to die. So all of a sudden, th. This. These two different kinds of justice, you know, courtroom justice and cowboy justice, are directly in conflict. And Banner says to Jacob in the courtroom, he says, you know, this doesn't end here. It doesn't end in a courtroom. This ends on your front lawn. Which I thought was like a pretty good. Pretty good line. And Jacob's like, hey, man, if that's where you want to die, I'll see you there. Which I thought was pretty sick. Also really good. These are two guys. I could watch these two dudes growl at each other all day. We got two legendary growlers in there.
- [24:41]
Lynette Rice
I definitely feel like they've set him up so he's at a helpless place, and we need Spencer to swing in and save the day because it feels like he has no place to go. Jacob, to fix this. I mean, what's left? He has no money, right? Does he have many cattle left to sell? He's screwed.
- [24:58]
Jefferson White
Yeah, kind of. All he has is the cattle. A lot of his cowboys left his sort of army. You know, when we first met him at the beginning of 1923, he had a pretty substantial group of cowboys who were loyal to him, if nothing else. But now, as the hard seasons have crept on, he's even lost a number of his faithful soldiers. And he lost, obviously, he lost John Dutton senior. So he's really stretched thin. It's a bit of a parallel between 1923 and the actions of Yellowstone, where in the actions of Yellowstone now, you know, Kevin Costner. John Dutton is facing this kind of complicated battle that's getting increasingly political. It's getting further and further from the ranch itself. And it feels like the same conflict is facing Jacob Dutton. You know, his forces are spread very thin and winter is coming. You know, not to too glibly call on. Yeah, exactly. I know, but winter's coming, right? And Whitfield has this incredible line to Jacob where he's like, you know, all you can really think about is the seasons, man. You depend on the seasons. Me, I just think about the future. You know, I'm going to come and buy up all this land. I'm going to take this all over, and nobody's going to remember you. It's a really exciting place to leave it because there are all these conflicts just simmering and winter is just setting in. So it's really, it's an exciting place to leave it. And I cannot wait to see what happens next. Lynette, I can't thank you enough for joining us again today to dig into all this stuff. It's an incredibly exciting time to be a Yellowstone fan. There's. There's Yellowstone coming. There's more 1923 coming. There's so much to look forward to and I'm sure our listeners agree. We really can't wait. So I'm looking forward to speaking again, Lynette, hopefully soon. And thank you so much for joining us.
- [26:51]
Lynette Rice
Oh, my pleasure. It's so much fun.
- [26:53]
Jen Landon
Thanks, Lynette.
- [26:55]
Jefferson White
As always, thank you all out there so much for listening as we very eagerly await the return of the second part of Yellowstone season five. We're going to continue to drop new podcast episodes every month. Stay tuned for more insider interviews and behind the scenes looks at the world of Yellowstone. And be sure please, please, please leave us reviews about what you want to hear. This whole thing is a conversation between us and you and we can't wait to hear from you. The official Yellowstone podcast is a production of 101 Studios and Paramount. This episode was produced by Scott Stone. Brandon Gatches is the head of audio for 101 Studios. Steve Razis is the executive vice president of the Paramount Global Podcast Group. Special thanks to Megan Marcus, Jeremy Westfall, Ainsley Rosito, Andrew Sarnow, Jason Reed and Whitney Baxter from Paramount. And of course, David Glasser, David Hutkin and Michelle Newman from from 101 Studios.