Podcast Summary: After Pope Francis: A Round Table With David French

The Opinions, hosted by The New York Times Opinion, provides insightful discussions on current events. In the April 23, 2025 episode titled "After Pope Francis: A Round Table With David French," host David French engages with experts David Gibson and Leah Labresco Sargent to reflect on the legacy of Pope Francis and contemplate the future of the papacy.

1. Introduction to the Discussion

The episode begins with David French introducing his guests: David Gibson, the Director of the Center on Religion and Culture at Fordham University, and Leah Labresco Sargent, a writer and author of the upcoming book Dignity of Dependence. French sets the stage by highlighting Pope Francis's empathetic and compassionate leadership, noting his focus on marginalized and vulnerable populations within the Church.

2. Personal Reflections on Pope Francis

David Gibson's Perspective

David Gibson emphasizes Pope Francis's personal and pastoral gifts. He recalls moments that humanized the Pope, such as taking the bus and living simply:

"When he became pope, I think a lot of us... were really seized by particular details of him taking the bus like a normal person... [02:09]"

Gibson praises Francis's ability to connect individually but acknowledges his struggles with institutional reform:

"...he really struggled as an institutionalist, both to reform some of the abuses... [02:58]"

Leah Labresco Sargent's Insights

Leah Labresco Sargent echoes Gibson's sentiments, highlighting Pope Francis's impactful first moments and his consistent appeal for prayers:

"He just says those simple words, buona serra... [02:09]"

Sargent notes the historical shift towards viewing the Pope as a pastoral leader, a trend Pope Francis accelerated:

"...the shift in the Catholic Church to the Pope as pastor is something that's been going on for half a century or more... [04:10]"

3. Understanding the Role and Authority of the Pope

Defining Papal Authority

French seeks to clarify the Pope's authority over Church doctrine for non-Catholic listeners. Gibson explains that the Pope serves as a steward of the faith rather than an originator:

"The Pope is a steward of what's been handed onto him... [07:30]"

He contrasts the papacy with political presidencies, emphasizing that the Pope cannot unilaterally change Church teachings:

"...the Church has one truth. All through the centuries... [07:30]"

Sargent adds that while the Pope has supreme authority, it's limited and aims to maintain unity:

"...the Pope has supreme authority in the Catholic Church, and it's supremely limited... [09:56]"

Challenges of Modern Communication

Gibson discusses how immediate media influences the Pope's role, making personal interactions global and sometimes misinterpreted as doctrinal changes:

"A pastoral comment... goes round the globe in seconds... [05:45]"

This flattening of communication has eroded trust in Church teachings and complicated Pope Francis's pastoral approach.

4. Divides and Controversies within the Church

Weakening of Institutional Authority

Referencing Ross Douthat's analysis, Gibson and Sargent discuss the notion that the papacy's traditional authority may be weakening:

"The institution itself seems to be perhaps weakening... [11:39]"

Sargent observes that the perceived command-and-control model of the Church has always been overstated, even historically:

"...it has created an illusion that we have a command and control church... [13:21]"

Gibson highlights Pope Francis's struggles with enforcing transparent and predictable rules, particularly in cases of abuse:

"...he fell short of what he wanted to do... [15:21]"

Impact on Catholic Conservatives in the U.S.

French explores how Pope Francis's leadership has been provocative for American Catholic conservatives. Gibson explains the complexities of defining conservatism within the Church:

"Pope Francis does not fit neatly into the liberal or conservative boxes of America... [16:18]"

Sargent categorizes the conservative opposition, noting divisions over the Latin Mass, social issues, and perceptions of Francis as too liberal:

"There are people who defend that Mass... [17:47]"

Despite high overall approval ratings, Sargent acknowledges a significant decline among right-leaning Catholics:

"When Pope Francis took office, 84% of right-leaning Catholics... down to 69%... [20:37]"

5. Looking Ahead: The Next Pope

Hopes and Prayers for Future Leadership

French prompts a discussion on what the guests hope for in the next Pope. Gibson refrains from speculating on candidates, instead expressing a desire for a Pope who embodies personal holiness, resilience, and fearlessness:

"I pray for just a man of great personal holiness and resilience... [21:10]"

Sargent emphasizes the importance of the Cardinals' process, encouraging patience and understanding of their one-time decision-making role:

"They don't know each other these next couple of weeks... [22:19]"

Potential Candidates and the Conclave Process

While neither Gibson nor Sargent predicts specific candidates, they highlight the solemn responsibility of the College of Cardinals in selecting the next leader, stressing the significance of mutual understanding among cardinals during the conclave.

6. Pope Francis's Enduring Legacy

Pastoral and Theological Contributions

Sargent and Gibson reflect on Pope Francis's lasting impact beyond the immediate Church community. Sargent views his legacy as transforming the papacy into a more pastoral and humane institution:

"This has set the bar... Pope Francis has supercharged that... [23:57]"

Gibson highlights Francis's advocacy against throwaway culture, emphasizing his theological and personal commitment to human dignity:

"His profound witness against throwaway culture... [24:37]"

Appeal Beyond the Faith

Sargent notes that Pope Francis's messages resonated not only with believers but also with those outside the Church, addressing global issues like climate change and human trafficking:

"His appeal is not just for believers, but he also had a great appeal to those outside the faith... [25:40]"

This broad influence underscores Francis's role as a prophetic figure addressing urgent contemporary challenges.

7. Conclusion

As the podcast wraps up, French thanks Gibson and Sargent for their insightful contributions. The discussion underscores Pope Francis's complex legacy as a pastoral leader navigating institutional challenges and societal divisions. His influence extends beyond the Catholic Church, leaving a lasting imprint on global conversations about faith, justice, and human dignity.

Notable Quotes:

• David Gibson [02:09]: "He took the bus like a normal person... always at his best when confronted by an individual."
• Leah Labresco Sargent [04:10]: "He always asked you to pray for him. He said, I'll pray for you, but please pray for me."
• David Gibson [07:30]: "The Pope is a steward of what's been handed onto him. He's someone taking care of the deposit of faith."
• Leah Labresco Sargent [09:56]: "Unity is so important. No pope wants to divide the church."
• David Gibson [15:21]: "...Pope Francis fail to offer a poor church for the poor... left less room for the poor to appeal."
• Leah Labresco Sargent [17:47]: "The whole command and control thing of edicts coming down from on high is not a great way to operate."

Conclusion This episode of The Opinions offers a comprehensive exploration of Pope Francis's tenure, dissecting his strengths as a pastoral leader and his challenges within the institutional framework of the Catholic Church. Through thoughtful analysis, David French, David Gibson, and Leah Labresco Sargent provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the Pope's legacy and the future directions the Church may take post-Francis.