Podcast Summary: The Opinions – America's Next Story: Jill Lepore (Oct 27, 2025)

Episode Overview

In this installment of "America’s Next Story" from The Opinions podcast, host David Leonhardt of The New York Times Opinion is joined by acclaimed historian Jill Lepore. Together, they explore why the American political system feels so gridlocked today—especially the failure to amend the Constitution—and what that says about our broader cultural relationship to change, progress, and hope. The conversation addresses how Americans tell their national story, why the concept of civic belonging has become fraught, the pitfalls of oppositional political messaging, and how past generations have found purpose and determination in long struggles for change. The episode is rich with historical context, personal insight, and candid analysis aimed at imagining America's future beyond polarization and despair.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. American Progress and the Changing Meaning of Change

• Leonhardt's framing: He observes that the scale of change in recent decades feels smaller than in generations past. Unlike his grandparents, who witnessed seismic technological and social revolutions, he suggests that our era’s sense of progress is more muted. [02:10]
• Lepore’s response: She tracks how our language has shifted from "moral progress" (18th century), to "evolution" (19th), to "economic growth" (20th), and finally to an age obsessed with "technological progress" or "disruptive innovation." [03:09]
  • Quote: "When you narrow the idea of progress to the latest update on your iPhone or do you have ChatGPT 5 or 4, then you are only the object of change and never the subject of it." – Jill Lepore [04:21]
• Passivity in the face of change: Lepore points out that contemporary Americans, especially students, often view change as something that happens to them, not something they create—a dynamic reinforced by consumer culture. [04:23]

2. America's Stuckness and the Illusion of Restoration

• Political stagnation: Despite widespread hunger for change, Lepore argues that constitutional change now happens mostly via Supreme Court interpretation, not by amendment.
• The restoration narrative: "The rhetorical move of a certain brand of conservatism is to insist that the change it is implementing is not change, but restoration," Lepore observes, referencing slogans like "Make America Great Again." [07:02]
  • Quote: "It is essentially a marketing decision to package your brand of change as restoration." – Jill Lepore [07:20]
• Sense of chaos: Today's American political environment is felt as unprecedented and tumultuous, even to historians. [07:55]

3. Crafting a New National Narrative

• The problem with oppositional storytelling: Opposing Trump’s story isn’t enough; defining a story in opposition "dooms it from the beginning." [08:58]
  • Anecdote: Lepore recounts her experience covering the 2016 conventions, criticizing the Democrats' theater of "Love Trumps Hate" as a "reprehensible" failure of imagination and notes that demonizing opponents is a "losing move—even if you win an election." [09:38]
  • Quote: "To paint your enemies as satanic is always a losing move. Right. You might win an election. You will lose the whole country." – Jill Lepore [10:18]
• Balancing history’s possibilities: Lepore reflects on writing history while living through it, noting that periods like the present are hard to narrate because "it is an ongoing story. It is not over. But you have to have an ending that could lead anywhere." [13:53]
  • Importance of contingency: "Having that sense of contingency is...really important to, I guess, having a sense of authorship of your own life." – Jill Lepore [15:09]

4. Restoration of Civic Possibility and Patriotism

• The challenges of national belonging: Americans struggle to regain a positive, inclusive story, partly because "all politics is national politics now," crowding out the sense of local civic purpose. [16:01]
• Local over national: Lepore emphasizes that meaningful patriotism and community often begin at the local level—through shared celebrations or dialogues—rather than from top-down pronouncements. [17:41]
  • Walter Cronkite's American Issues Forums: A historical effort at local engagement that lacked recordkeeping but inspired contemporary bridging initiatives for America's 250th anniversary. [16:33]
  • Quote: "I think that kind of writing a story about your place in the country is maybe the easier place to begin..." – Jill Lepore [18:46]

5. The Loss of Community and the Nationalized Divide

• Impact of media transformation: Leonhardt and Lepore discuss how local newspapers' disappearance nationalizes political identity and erodes neighborly bonds. [19:25]
• National media and corporate mediation: Local politics and civic activity offer more genuine engagement than consuming media filtered through corporate-owned platforms. [20:08]

6. The Pitfalls and Politics of Belonging and “Wokeism”

• Debate on 'belonging': Leonhardt cites Pete Buttigieg’s emphasis on belonging. Lepore notes the word’s co-optation, especially by HR culture and left politics, and its association with shaming and exclusion. [20:59]
  • Quote: "I think the left has to admit that it has done a lot to make a lot of Americans feel like they do not belong." – Jill Lepore [23:30]
• Campus climate: Lepore candidly discusses how, especially post-2014, Harvard’s environment shifted toward public shaming and prosecutorial attitudes in classrooms, defending acknowledgement of real problems even if the "place I put blame is quite different than the right would." [22:28]

7. Constitutional Reform: Dream Amendments

• Leonhardt’s "constitutional bucket list":
  • Easing the amendment process
  • Abolishing the Electoral College
  • Limits on gerrymandering
  • House reform for more representation
  • Campaign donation limits
  • Supreme Court term limits [24:36]
• Lepore’s response: She affirms the value of listing needed changes, even if they seem unfeasible now. "If you think it could get pushed open, you sure as heck better have a list." [25:39]

8. Hope, Determination, and History’s Lessons

• On hope versus determination: Lepore distinguishes determination as more historically useful than hope, citing the multi-generational fight for women's suffrage and struggles against slavery as examples of relentless progress fueled by grit, not optimism. [27:43]
  • Quote: "Forms of tyranny succeed by destroying your determination, by destroying your imagination, your ability to picture the end of something." – Jill Lepore [28:25]
  • "Most forms of tyranny do come to an end...dismantling these systems has required years...of very hard work and determination. I'm not sure they always required hope..." – Jill Lepore [29:02]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You are only the object of change and never the subject of it.” – Jill Lepore on how we see progress today [04:21]
• “To paint your enemies as satanic is always a losing move. Right. You might win an election. You will lose the whole country.” – Jill Lepore [10:18]
• “Having that sense of contingency is...really important to...authorship of your own life.” – Jill Lepore [15:09]
• “I just think the left has to admit that it has done a lot to make a lot of Americans feel like they do not belong.” – Jill Lepore [23:30]
• “Forms of tyranny succeed by destroying your determination, by destroying your imagination, your ability to picture the end of something.” – Jill Lepore [28:25]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• American progress & passivity: [02:10] – [05:34]
• Political stagnation & 'restoration': [05:34] – [08:08]
• Building new stories (2016 conventions, narrative traps): [08:08] – [11:40]
• History as ongoing and contingent: [11:40] – [15:16]
• Repairing civic purpose locally: [16:01] – [19:25]
• Nationalization & the local loss: [19:25] – [20:33]
• Debate over 'belonging' and 'wokeism': [20:33] – [24:14]
• Constitutional amendment wishlist: [24:14] – [26:23]
• Ending on determination vs. hope: [26:23] – [29:37]

Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, historical, analytical, and personal. Lepore’s responses blend storytelling with direct critique, while Leonhardt’s questions are thoughtful and relatable. The tone remains searching but avoids fatalism, sustaining a measured optimism rooted in civic engagement and historical perspective.

Summary Takeaway

Jill Lepore and David Leonhardt offer a deep, clear-eyed diagnosis of American political and civic life, urging listeners to move beyond oppositional stories, rediscover local agency, honestly confront tribalism (on both left and right), and draw inspiration not from hope alone, but the enduring determination of historical movements for justice and reform. The American story, they argue, must be reclaimed both locally and nationally—and must remain open to the possibility of change, even in dark times.