Podcast Summary: The Opinions – "America's Next Story: Michelle Goldberg"
Date: December 22, 2025
Host: David Leonhardt (B)
Guest: Michelle Goldberg (A), New York Times Opinion Columnist
Main Theme: Reclaiming Immigration as America’s Next Story
Episode Overview
This episode concludes the "America’s Next Story" series by exploring the centrality of immigration to the American identity and the future of the country, particularly in the wake of Donald Trump’s return to the presidency in 2024. Guest Michelle Goldberg argues that America must reclaim and reframe its narrative around immigration, emphasizing both practical and moral imperatives. The discussion examines how historical and contemporary approaches to immigration intersect with political, economic, and cultural anxieties, and ponders what a more hopeful, unifying American immigration policy could look like.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why Immigration Should Be America’s Defining Story
[02:26 – 04:49]
- Michelle Goldberg asserts, "I just think it's the best thing about America. Quite simply, it's like the thing that we do have historically done better than others. We absorb immigrants. We integrate immigrants."
- Emphasizes pride in the Emma Lazarus poem and the tradition of “civic nationalism” (America as a nation of ideas and values open to all).
- Warns that Trump’s movement has deliberately attacked this civic nationalism, moving America toward exclusionary, ethnic-based nationalism.
- Democrats have taken the positive narrative of immigration for granted and must rebuild it intentionally, framing immigration as America’s "singular source of greatness."
2. Civic Nationalism Then and Now
[04:49 – 07:51]
- Reflexive consensus around America as a country of immigrants was the norm for previous generations; both Obama and Reagan invoked this ideal.
- Goldberg notes, “You're speaking at a time when you can't take that for granted as a baseline American ideal,” highlighting the contemporary panic around immigration and American identity.
- Distinguishes America’s unique success at integration from Europe’s challenges, "America should be proud of, as opposed to… assuming that the worst effects of mass migration…are going to be our destiny."
3. The Data on Immigrant Integration
[07:51 – 08:33]
- Leonhardt: “The immigrants of the last several decades…have climbed the ladder at an extremely similar rate to the overwhelmingly European immigrants of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.”
- America has historically been better at integrating newcomers, an advantage at risk due to current politics.
4. Demography, Diversity, and Birth Rates
[08:36 – 10:21]
- Goldberg highlights two forward-looking reasons for embracing immigration:
- America’s increasing diversity will intensify the stakes of exclusionary nationalism.
- With falling birth rates, the ability to attract and integrate young immigrants will be a competitive advantage—no rich country has figured out how to increase birth rates, so immigration is key to demographic vitality.
5. Scarcity, Anxiety, and Political Messaging
[10:21 – 13:14]
- Goldberg suggests, “Most Americans are already sort of there” on supporting immigration but populist messaging preys on economic fears.
- When people experience scarcity or instability, they’re more susceptible to anti-immigrant arguments.
- “Nobody in practice thinks that the shrinking of their community makes their life better,” notes Goldberg, emphasizing the benefits immigrants bring to sustaining communities and public institutions.
6. The Cruelty of Trump-Era Immigration Policies
[13:14 – 15:38]
- Leonhardt recounts the deportation of Ani Lucia Lopez Belloza: “Picked up…without due process, deported her to Honduras, a country she hadn’t been to since she was a little girl.”
- Goldberg: “There's sort of no religion, I don't think on earth that would countenance this treatment of human beings.”
- Both agree on the ethical necessity of rejecting such cruelty, with Goldberg insisting reformers must articulate why America’s immigrant tradition matters, not just what they oppose.
7. Biden’s Immigration Policy: Failure of Policy and Politics
[15:38 – 22:52]
- Both agree the border crisis during Biden’s first term stemmed from strains on the asylum system.
- Goldberg and Leonhardt reflect on a disconnect between elite perceptions and broader public sentiment, especially as migrants arrived in local communities.
- Goldberg details the political impact of Republican-led tactics like busing migrants to liberal cities and argues Democrats failed to surge resources in response.
- Leonhardt specifies three Biden administration mistakes:
- Campaign messaging interpreted as an open invitation.
- Executive actions easing deportation and granting temporary status.
- Delay in acknowledging or addressing the problem until it became politically unavoidable.
- Important distinction: Debate over whether the central issue was too much immigration substantively or merely politically.
8. The Need for Humane but Realistic Policy
[22:52 – 26:53]
- Goldberg raises concerns about the blanket attack on legal immigration, including high-skill immigrants critical to America’s prosperity.
- Notes a chilling climate for all immigrants, “there is a constant sense of… at any moment you could be plunged into a Kafkaesque nightmare…"
- Both reflect anxiety across immigrant communities, including naturalized citizens and Latino Americans born in the US.
9. Toward a New Compromise and Possible Reforms
[24:33 – 26:53]
- Leonhardt proposes revisiting a “grand bargain”: Border security + legalization pathways.
- Goldberg sees this as the right conceptual approach, but achieving political consensus looks daunting.
- Shifts in public attitudes and tech job displacement might fuel new resentments, "especially as many of these jobs…are lost to AI, there's going to be more…reaction to outsiders."
10. Hope and the Potential for Change
[27:42 – End]
- Leonhardt entertains the possibility that a significant Democratic victory could enable major reform: “If Democrats can get it together to get rid of the filibuster…it’s not out of the question that politics could change more quickly than it seems.”
- Goldberg suggests the same political will that surmounted big problems in the past could deliver change.
- Both caution against complacency but look for leaders who can “sketch a new vision of what was possible here and change politics in truly surprising ways.”
- Goldberg points to local leaders like Zoran Mamdani in New York as examples of cosmopolitan, pro-immigrant politics inspiring hope: “That vision has the power to mobilize people.” [30:54 – 31:42]
- Emphasizes, however, that not all communities want a multicultural utopia, but even skeptical communities can appreciate immigrants' tangible contributions.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
Michelle Goldberg [02:47]:
"I just think it's the best thing about America. Quite simply, it's like the thing that we do have historically done better than others. We absorb immigrants. We integrate immigrants." -
David Leonhardt [08:03]:
“The immigrants of the last several decades…have climbed the ladder at an extremely similar rate to the overwhelmingly European immigrants of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.” -
Michelle Goldberg [12:41]:
“Nobody in practice thinks that, like, the shrinking of their community makes their life better.” -
David Leonhardt [13:14]:
"ICE picked her up at the airport in Massachusetts, and seemingly based on what the lawyers have said, without due process, deported her to Honduras, a country she hadn't been to since she was a little girl." -
Michelle Goldberg [15:00]:
"There's sort of no religion, I don't think on earth that would countenance this treatment of human beings." -
Michelle Goldberg [24:29]: "There is a constant sense of, you know, even if I got thrown into ICE detention...three weeks in really torturous conditions can kind of break a person. And so if you're just kind of going through your life feeling that at any moment you could be plunged into a Kafkaesque nightmare that would leave this permanent imprint on your soul, then maybe an offer from Canada or an offer from Denmark or something starts to look really nice."
-
Michelle Goldberg [30:54]: “I think we have different views about Zoran Mamdani, but I keep thinking about…his victory speech he gave when he said this is a city of immigrants and now it's going to be led by an immigrant. And he's someone…who has been able to combine both this kind of cosmopolitan vision…with this war against scarcity. And, and in doing so, you see how that inspired people..."
Timestamps for Important Segments
| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-------------|--------------------------------------------------| | 00:46–02:26 | Introduction & framing the episode's theme | | 02:26–04:49 | Why immigration is central to the American idea | | 04:49–07:51 | Civic nationalism and historic context | | 07:51–08:33 | Economic assimilation data and international comparison | | 08:36–10:21 | Birth rates, diversity, and demographic advantage| | 10:21–13:14 | Scarcity, anxiety, and pro-immigrant arguments | | 13:14–15:38 | Human cost and cruelty of Trump’s policies | | 15:38–22:52 | Dissecting Biden’s immigration failures | | 22:52–26:53 | Broader attack on legal immigration and future fears| | 24:33–26:53 | Prospects for legislative reform and public opinion| | 27:42–END | Hope, political will, and inspiring examples |
Conclusion
The conversation challenges listeners to reconsider not only the practicalities of immigration policy but the core story America tells about itself. Goldberg and Leonhardt intertwine the nation’s struggles with scarcity, identity, and fairness, but ultimately suggest that a politics of generosity and inclusion—anchored by the nation's immigrant tradition—remains both necessary and, perhaps, possible if new leaders can articulate a compelling vision. The episode ends with optimism rooted in history: America has overcome greater challenges before, and new visionary leadership could once again reshape the narrative.