America's Next Story: Senator Cory Booker

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Opinions – America's Next Story: Senator Cory Booker

Host: David Leonhardt (New York Times Opinion)
Guest: Senator Cory Booker (New Jersey)
Date: November 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, David Leonhardt sits down with Senator Cory Booker as part of the "America's Next Story" series, which explores the ideas that have historically united the country and those that might do so in the future. Booker reflects on his marathon 25-hour Senate speech against President Trump, the evolving challenges facing American democracy, the shifting political landscape, and the critical need to restore a sense of common purpose and progressive patriotism.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Problem with Centering Trump in the Narrative ([03:35])

• Booker's Perspective on Trump: Booker argues that constantly making Donald Trump the “main character” in America's narrative ignores deeper issues:
  • Quote: “Donald Trump is a symptom, I think, of a deeper problem... how tribal we've become as a country, how we are being told on all of our major platforms that... we should hate each other.” (Senator Cory Booker, [05:47])
• Disenchantment with Politics: Booker attributes New Jersey's shift toward Trump (despite not flipping Republican) to widespread frustration and lost faith in both parties, not unique appeal for Trump.
• Economic Anxiety: There's a growing sense that the American dream is out of reach, fueling distrust in "who can deliver" lasting prosperity.
• Democrat and Republican Disconnect: Both parties are failing to inspire belief that they can improve material circumstances for ordinary Americans.

2. Democratic Party's Missed Opportunities and Communication Failures

• Lack of Engagement with Young and Minority Voters:
  • Booker highlights the Democrats’ insufficient presence on platforms where young people get news, like TikTok and gaming channels.
  • Quote: “You guys are running to go do an MSNBC, and I love my MSNBC... I can show you on my platforms, that one video of mine can get more than the top rated views on MSNBC. And so we're in a different era.” (Senator Cory Booker, [09:13])
• Need for Vision and Delivery: Booker contrasts FDR’s era, which earned loyalty by both articulating and fulfilling a vision for working people, with today’s Democratic Party, which he says has “failed in my generation.” ([11:03])

3. The 25-Hour Senate Speech: Purpose, Reach, and Limits ([12:33]–[16:54])

• Background: Booker delivered a record-breaking 25-hour Senate speech protesting Trump’s actions and the normalization of the current crisis.
  • Dedication: "I rise with the intention of disrupting the normal business of the United States Senate for as long as I am physically able." (Senator Cory Booker, [01:30])
  • Personal Sacrifice: Booker dehydrated and fasted for days to maximize time on the floor.
    • Quote: “I did something that you should not do. Dehydrated yourself for more than a day. And then I didn't eat food for three days.” (Senator Cory Booker, [12:40])
• Goal: To show this is “not a normal time” and to spotlight the pain being experienced across party lines.
• Response and Result: The speech resonated, especially through digital platforms, generating attention from millions—but Booker acknowledges that singular moments aren’t enough.
  • Quote: “What we have to repent for is not just the vitriolic words and violent actions of the bad people, but the appalling silence and inaction of the good people.” (Senator Cory Booker, quoting Dr. King, [16:43])

4. Connecting Democracy to Daily Life ([16:54]–[18:20])

• Democracy as a Kitchen Table Issue:
  • Storytelling Failure: Booker critiques politicians for failing to link democratic erosion to real-world struggles like healthcare costs and energy prices.
  • Quote: “If you can't tell people that the corruption of oil companies... is connected to your high energy costs, then you're not telling the story.” (Senator Cory Booker, [17:15])
• American Ideals and Common Cause: He emphasizes the enduring power of founding ideals, which have fueled every major movement—from Susan B. Anthony to Harvey Milk.
  • Quote: “I want people to feel the magnitude of who we are as a people... We are exceptional especially because of Frederick Douglass... because of people who believed so much in this democracy, even when the democracy ... didn't believe in them.” (Senator Cory Booker, [18:20])

5. Redefining and Reclaiming Patriotism ([28:34]–[31:56])

• Progressive Patriotism: Patriotism should not be monopolized by conservatives or equated with jingoism; instead, it’s a matter of devotion to shared ideals, not just symbols.
  • Quote: “If I'm going to try to do anything in the coming years is to reclaim a deeper, more meaningful patriotism. That's not symbols and slogans. It's shared devotion to shared ideals.” (Senator Cory Booker, [29:39])
• Acts of Everyday Patriotism: Booker highlights unsung heroes—teachers, police officers, community advocates—as exemplars of this “infectious” civic spirit.
  • Quote: “You know what patriotism is? It's that cop that I know in Newark that works all day protecting people and then runs the Little League program... it's the people in our country that... do quiet acts of shared devotion.” ([30:17])

6. Optimism Amid Darkness ([26:38]–[28:34])

• Faith After Disappointment: Booker urges perseverance and optimism, drawing from the legacy of figures like A. Philip Randolph and key moments in civil rights history.
  • Quote: “You cannot have great courage unless you face great fear. And you cannot have great hope unless you face great despair.” (Senator Cory Booker, [26:57])
  • Comparison: “There's nothing we're experiencing now that our ancestors didn't experience worse... they fought through it and they brought about a new day.” ([27:17])

7. Policy, Principle, and Political Strategy ([21:43]–[24:40])

• Collaboration and Boundaries: Booker insists on working across the aisle for common good, but refuses to support measures that undermine democratic norms or fairness (e.g., grant programs that exclude blue states).
• Intraparty Debate: He supports “tough conversations” within the Democratic Party and wants this transition to be a “competition of ideas,” prioritizing people over party allegiance.

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Noteworthy Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the American Dream:
  “My grandfather bragged to the day he died that he converted through his organizing and working on elections, that he got 14 districts in Detroit to shift over to the Democratic Party.” (Senator Cory Booker, [10:50])

• On Progressive Storytelling and Poetry:
  “Politics has to still be about not just the prose, but the poetry.” (Senator Cory Booker, [17:15])

• On the Dangers of Cynicism:
  “Every American has a choice...to surrender the idea of America, to surrender to cynicism, to delve into despair, or to fight like hell.” (Senator Cory Booker, [28:05])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Introduction & Context: [00:45]–[02:35]
• NJ's Shift Toward Trump; Disillusionment with Politics: [03:05]–[07:42]
• Immigrant and Minority Voter Shift: [07:49]–[11:02]
• Lessons from FDR & Loss of Party Vision: [11:03]–[12:20]
• The 25-Hour Senate Speech: Motivation and Experience: [12:33]–[16:54]
• Democracy, Corruption, and Kitchen Table Issues: [16:54]–[18:20]
• Progressive Patriotism & Civic Devotion: [28:34]–[31:56]
• Optimism and Resilience in Dark Times: [26:38]–[28:34]
• Policy Boundaries & Intraparty Debates: [21:43]–[24:40]

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Conclusion

Senator Cory Booker’s conversation touches on themes of lost faith, the need for politicians to meet Americans in their lived realities, the enduring resilience of democratic and patriotic ideals, and the urgency of repairing divisions. His hopefulness, rooted in historic struggle and personal conviction, is a call for creative, inclusive leadership—and for Americans to reclaim the dream, together, with courage and honest debate.

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Transcript

[Narrator]

Hear that? That's what it sounds like when you plant more trees than you harvest. Work done by thousands of working forest professionals like Adam, a district forest manager who works to protect our forests from fires.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Keeping the forest fire resistant, synonymous with.

[David Leonhardt]

Keeping the forest healthy.

[Senator Cory Booker]

And we do that through planting more than we harvest and mitigate those risks through active management. It's a long term commitment.

[Narrator]

Visit workingforestsinitiative.com to learn more. This is the Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times Opinion. You've heard the news, here's what to make of it.

[David Leonhardt]

I'm David Leonhart, an editorial director in New York Times Opinion and this is America's Next story, a series about the ideas that once held our country together and those that might do so again.

[Senator Cory Booker]

We, the people, in order to form a more perfect union, ask not what.

[David Leonhardt]

Your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.

[Senator Cory Booker]

And America is too great for small dreams.

[David Leonhardt]

Change is what's happening in America and we will make America great again.

[Senator Cory Booker]

God bless you and good night. I love you.

[David Leonhardt]

Talking with Senator Cory Booker from New Jersey last spring, Booker gave a record breaking speech on the Senate floor.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I rise with the intention of disrupting the normal business of the United States Senate for as long as I am physically able.

[David Leonhardt]

He spent more than 25 hours speaking out about President Trump.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Unnecessary hardships are being borne by Americans of all backgrounds and institutions which are special in America are being recklessly, and I would say even unconstitutionally affected, attacked, even shattered.

[David Leonhardt]

With that speech, Senator Booker pushed back against the conventional wisdom. He didn't just talk about kitchen table issues that polls suggest are Americans main focus. He instead talked squarely about the ways that President Trump is undermining our democracy. And he captured people's attention when he did. So I wanted to ask Senator Booker, how can the country turn the page on Trumpism to a new American story? Senator Booker, thanks for joining me today.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I'm grateful to be here. Thank you. And I love this series. I'm privileged and feel very blessed to be on it.

[David Leonhardt]

Thank you. Since we last spoken, you've gotten engaged. Congratulations.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Thank you very much. It's a whole new world for me. I'm just more excited than I've been about anything, I think.

[David Leonhardt]

Do you have a date?

[Senator Cory Booker]

We do. It's a matter of weeks from now. Excellent. Yes, I'm very excited.

[David Leonhardt]

My wife says an engagement is not real unless there's a ring and a date. So it sounds like you qualify.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yeah, we want to do it really, really quick. I have these great hopes for children.

[David Leonhardt]

Great.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

Let's go back to 2024. Your state, new Jersey, shifted more to President Trump than almost any other state. And that got a little bit lost. Cause it didn't flip. Kamala Harris still won the state. Why do you think that is? When you talk to people in New Jersey, what did you hear about why Donald Trump, whom was a familiar character, was more appealing to them in 2024 than he had been the previous two times he ran?

[Senator Cory Booker]

So I don't want Donald Trump to be the main character in our narrative of where we are in America right now. Look, there are existential urgencies about him right now and what he's doing to hurt people. But I think we make a big mistake if we center him as the main character in the narrative. And in my state, I think the reason why you see this shifting is because New Jerseyans, like Americans, are really fed up with our politics and have lost faith in both parties. Remember, in this presidential election, the majority of Americans rejected both candidates. Neither of them got over 50%. And it speaks to a larger hurt that's going on in our country, where the American dream, which delivered in measurable ways for generations, from my great grandparents to my grandparents to my parents, every generation was doing better than the one before, more economically secure. But now people are living in a nation where there is a deep economic insecurity. And so here you have a nation and a state where you. You don't know who can deliver on that redeeming of the American dream for them. And I think that frustration is playing out in our politics. It's playing out especially when you see demagogues and carnival barkers who, who are trying to exploit that pain or lie to Americans about what they are going to do. Lower grocery prices on day one. I'm. Lower prescription drug prices, healthcare. I have some semblance of a plan, but you'll be okay. Again, people feel like they are looking for who to believe in and what to believe.

[David Leonhardt]

And that makes some sense to me. It would make more complete sense if Donald Trump hadn't held office before.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Right.

[David Leonhardt]

But he had. And so in a way, we were. In fact, Kamala Harris hadn't been president and he had. And so I get the frustration. I'm also curious why you think Trump was a more appealing alternative to these frustrated people than the Democratic Party and Kamala Harris.

[Senator Cory Booker]

So, look, I mean, Trump may have done well in New Jersey, but like happened in his first term, he has sunk in the polls in my State dramatically. And there is a frustration. And even some of the counties that had high immigrant populations that seem to support him, it's now gone the exact opposite direction where you have more people in those counties, literally saying in interviews, I made him the mistake. I did not think he would have masked unidentified people jumping out of unmarked cars, going into our courts, our churches, our hospitals, and dragging people to God knows where. I think the centering of Donald Trump and trying to figure out that psychology of that person is important. But what is a bigger challenge for me as an American right now is, is trying to figure out how do we as a country deal with what I think is an even greater threat, the one that he exploited, because he is a symptom, I think, of a deeper problem. And that deeper problem lies in how tribal we've become as a country, how we are being told on all of our major platforms that are competing for our attention that we should hate each other, that we are so different, that we are existentially a threat to one another. And for me, that is in this environment, it actually is working to undermine our ability to meet our common pain. Because I go around this country and I see that we have a deep common pain, but we do not have a sense of deep common purpose. I'm looking for what I think America's calling is and what was for my grandparents generation, my parents generation, despite all the challenges that they grew up with in a divided, along racial lines country, what they were able to experience was human flourishing.

[David Leonhardt]

I want to ask you one more question about 2024. And honestly, it's trying to help me figure out what is the most befuddling aspect of American politics.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Please.

[David Leonhardt]

I take your point that Donald Trump is less popular with immigrants and with many of these groups than he was before he took office. But as you said, this isn't just about Trump. Why is it, do you think that non white Americans, immigrant Americans, groups that are very large in New Jersey, had looked at the Democratic Party in 2024 and said, no, thanks.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Look, when I sit in a barbershop, and I know you find that hard to believe, given my, I feel your pain, my lack of hair. But when I sit in a barbershop, in my neighborhood, black barbershop, you find people with the same frustration as if I went to a rural area and went to a diner, is that people just don't believe American politics is serving Americans.

[David Leonhardt]

Yep.

[Senator Cory Booker]

And that frustration makes people look like, okay, I've been riding this horse for a long time. It hasn't gotten to Me where I want to go. Let me jump on this other horse. The second thing I want to say to you was a far more parochial in terms of what the Democratic problem was in this election when you talk about young people. But I was astonished. In fact, I went to the Democratic leadership in the Senate and I said, give me this job, please, because you have senators.

[David Leonhardt]

Which job?

[Senator Cory Booker]

The job of trying to teach my caucus to use the platforms that most Americans get their news from.

[David Leonhardt]

Now, you were saying Democrats have not been good enough in engaging with them.

[Senator Cory Booker]

If you're young voters, get their news on TikTok and you are not there. I made a room full of people once. I said, everybody born in March, chant truth now. Everybody born on the other months, chant lie. Had them all scream as loud as you can. And then I stop, said, what did you hear? Even the people who were chanting truth could only hear lie. And what Donald Trump did is he showed up on the gaming platforms. We weren't there at all. And I basically said to my team, my fellow Democrats, you guys are running to go do an MSNBC, and I love my MSNBC, but you that only got 100,000 views. And I can show you on my platforms, that one video of mine can get more than the top rated views on msnbc. And so we're in a different era. And that's an important point. But the bigger point I want to really drive with you right now is we need to redeem the dream of America and the dream I described to you, that my grandfather believed in, the dream that my father believed in, and the dream that was real for them. Men coming out of poverty and hardship and suffered the scars of racism. This was a country that was closing the black white wealth gap that offered my grandfather, who worked on an assembly line, not only enough money to provide for his family, but him and my grandmother were able to be entrepreneurs, invest in a laundromat, invest in a. In a gas station. They. They were the Jeffersons. They moved on up. What happened to that dream? Now, my grandfather was a Democrat. Why? Because when he was coming up, most blacks were Republicans and they switched. My grandfather bragged to the day he died that he converted through his organizing and working on elections, that he got 14 districts in Detroit to shift over to the Democratic Party.

[David Leonhardt]

What era was this?

[Senator Cory Booker]

This was the 1930s and 40s, the FDR era. And why was FDR the guy that could get a union guy to shift over to that party? Because FDR did two things. He had a clear vision that this was going to be the nation where working people would have dignity at work, would be able to afford a home, would be able to afford to raise their children and give them a better life. And then he delivered on those things. That's my grandfather's Democratic Party. My father came to this town, Washington, D.C. out of a HBCU and because of the civil rights movement that blacks and whites, Christians and Jews in this town were forcing corporations to hire qualified blacks. He became IBM's first black salesman in this entire region and became one of their top 5% of their global salesman. Because if you give, create a fair playing field, people get on that field and compete. And next thing you know, my father would look at my brother and I growing up in a suburban home in New Jersey and say, boy, don't you dare walk around this house like you hit a triple. You were born on third base. But that's the dream for every generation. And the Democratic Party has failed in my generation.

[David Leonhardt]

Let's use that to come to this moment, to what Donald Trump is doing now. Back in March, actually, I think it went on so long that extended into April. You gave a 25 hour speech on the Senate floor.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yes.

[David Leonhardt]

You set a record. I read that you didn't drink water or eat food in advance to minimize the bathroom trips.

[Senator Cory Booker]

It definitely was a, that was my biggest obstacle, I thought, was that I would need to go to the bathroom. So I, I did something that you should not do. Dehydrated yourself for more than a day. And then I didn't eat food for three days.

[David Leonhardt]

And how many times did you actually have to leave the floor to go to the bathroom?

[Senator Cory Booker]

You can't, you can't.

[David Leonhardt]

So, zero, zero. You didn't have anyone pinch it for you?

[Senator Cory Booker]

No. You're not allowed to. Zero, zero. Yes.

[David Leonhardt]

So you do that clearly to try to bring a new level of attention to the ways in which Donald Trump is undermining our democracy. And I'm curious now that we're several months out from that, when you look back on it, in what ways do you think you succeeded in bringing more attention? And in what ways do you think, okay, that worked in this way, but it didn't work in these other ways. And here's what we have to do going forward. How do you grade your own 25 hour floor speech?

[Senator Cory Booker]

Well, the, the ambition was at that point, especially when I think we were, a lot of people in America were feeling deflated and defeated by all that was going on. Remember, it was right after we had given the Republicans a continuing resolution for six Months and a lot of people were saying, why didn't we stand in.

[David Leonhardt]

Front of you hadn't shut down the government before. The government did shut again.

[Senator Cory Booker]

We don't shut down the government. They control the House, the Senate and the White House. They wouldn't come to the table to negotiate with us. And I felt like we gave in to them. And I was feeling defeated. And I was having Americans, new workers, in this case, stop me and say, why aren't you guys fighting for us? And I said to a guy in the, in the grocery store, and I said to him, well, we don't have the majority and look, I'm as frustrated as you are, but we can't call committee. And finally I was just, he said, you're making all these excuses. Are you an American or American? And I, I laughed at him. And he says, where is the guy he said to me that I voted for in 1998, back when I had hair? He said, as a New York City councilor, as a New York City councilman, who then, against this oppressive machine that you were fighting at that time, you went out and did a 10 day hunger strike and rallied thousands to address the problems in a place that had been forgotten. Where's the guy that when our community wasn't safe, you moved into a mobile home and lived there on what people said were our worst drug corner. And he started marching through my career about all the things that, that I did to not let the absurdities that people were living with be normalized. And so I came back to Washington and I told my team, we need to start finding ways to show that this is not a normal time. But more than that, shining the light on the very people that are in the struggle. And I very deliberately read Republican voices. Donald Trump is benefiting from our tribal divide, from the lie, the destructive lie, that we don't have common pain and common purpose in this. I rise tonight because I believe sincerely that our country is in crisis. And I believe that not in a partisan sense, because so many of the people that have been reaching out to my office in pain, in fear, having their lives upended, so many of them identify themselves as Republicans. That was my attempt and it succeeded in this sense. I remember listening, I think it was to one of the major radio stations I listened to interviewing people whose letters I read on the Senate floor. And so TikTok reached out to us at 340 million Americans press like on it. These are people that actually engage with the content in a significant way. And it began to elevate it, but it cannot be a one time thing. That's why I was happy days later to go out to the no Kings rally. That's why many months later my friends were sending me pictures of people's protest signs that had quotes from that speech in this most recent no Kings rally. Because the biggest problem we have, and King said this, that what we have to repent for is not just the vitriolic words and violent actions of the bad people, but the appalling silence and inaction of the good people.

[David Leonhardt]

How do you think about the fact, I'm sure you've heard this from people inside the Democratic Party, from pollsters, that Americans just care much more about the first set of issues. We were talking about their own weekly budget, paying for healthcare, getting their kids to a good school, and that they just don't have time or energy to think about these so called democracy issues.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I think then that is a failure to tell the story. So we all understand politics has to still be about not just the prose, but the poetry. It's why Martin Luther King could stand up on the march on Washington, not about his ten point policy plan, but to call to the moral imagination of a nation and say, we're all in this together. We all have common yearnings for our children. Why democracy? If you can't tell people that the corruption of oil companies and what they do and the money they drown this place with is connected to your high energy costs, then you're not telling the story. If you can't tell about why people's high prescription drug costs are because pharmaceutical companies come to this town and drown it in money. That's what corruption has to be talked about.

[David Leonhardt]

So you're saying it has to be about democracy because that's what's happening and you have to connect it to the ways in which people experience it in their daily lives.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Look, I think one of the greatest stories in our nation are the stories where people fought and bled and died for those incredible ideals that our founders put forward that were so radical that they themselves so lofty and resonant that they themselves fell short of them. We hold these truths to be self evident. That all men, all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Do you know those words fueled every major movement in our country? They are literally quoted by everybody from Susan B. Anthony to Harvey Milk to Martin Luther King. God, I want people to feel the magnitude of who we are as a people that this country did break with the course of human events to create something that's so special. There's all these fights about American exceptionalism. I'm on the side that we are exceptional and that we're exceptional especially because of Frederick Douglass. We're exceptional especially because of Alice Paul. We're exceptional because of the people who believed so much in this democracy, even when the democracy with a government didn't believe in them and they believed something that we have lost. Now that I'm going to do everything I can to rekindle in this country, which is a sense of common cause.

[David Leonhardt]

I hadn't thought about this in exactly these terms until you just made that point, but Martin Luther King's I have a dream speech is a speech that ties together these lofty democratic principles with material day to day living standards. I mean, his dream, he says, is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream. And so he's doing the I want to make your lives good, while he's also appealing, as you just noted, to the highest principles of America.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yes. And the unifying principles. I believe we are still a nation. And as soon as we can let folks understand that when we start recognizing that we have a shared devotion to an ideal that's being lost, the American ideal, and stop letting people think it's an ideal that belongs to one party or the other, that's when we start breaking through and doing the things that 70% of Americans. I said this to Joe Biden when he was still a nominee. I joked with him. I said, if you go out and tell America, you're only going to do the things that 70% or more Americans agree with, you would get so many people behind you.

[David Leonhardt]

That's not what he did.

[Senator Cory Booker]

No, it's not what he did. But I watch and listen to the other side of the aisle all the time. And I'm seeing these horseshoe moments where people I disagree with fundamentally, like, let's use a controversial issue, abortion. I am watching these activists suddenly start saying, if we are for children, if we want more children born, we need to start dealing with child care, paid family leave, affordable health care, maternal care. And I'm like, wait a minute, that's an opportunity. We may not agree on a woman controlling her body, but we can find some common ground. Because I too agree that we're not encouraging enough people who want to have kids to have them, that we're creating an environment that's too hard. And if we can start speaking specifically to how we're going to do that better, I would think that more Republicans and Democrats would join that fight.

[David Leonhardt]

There's a tension here, which is, I understand the need to talk about. To stop hating the other side. Right. That's vital. We're all fellow citizens. But there's also this question of what to do in the moment. And to me, in some ways, this tension is highlighted by this spicy debate you had with your colleagues, Senator Klobuchar and Senator Cortez Mastro, where you felt like the Democratic Party wasn't doing enough to stand up to Donald Trump.

[Senator Cory Booker]

What I am tired of is when the President of the United States of America violates the Constitution, trashes our norms and traditions, and what does the Democratic Party do? Comply? Allow him beg for scraps? No, I demand justice.

[David Leonhardt]

And basically what you were criticizing them for doing was supporting an issue that actually is one of those 70% issues, which is cracking down on crime. There is a tension between let's do the stuff that 70% agree on, and let's make clear how abnormal Donald Trump is. And I'm curious how you think about when is it that the Democratic Party today should be part of the making progress on the 70%, and when should it say, no, no, no, we got to grind everything to a halt? Which is basically what you were arguing that moment in order to make people sit up and see that we're sliding toward autocracy.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Well, no, I, I, and I'm sorry, you misinterpreted what I was doing there. These were bills that would allow Donald Trump to. It was a grant program for local police departments, but he had said he would. Those grants would not go to New York, New Jersey, Illinois, and like, wait a minute, let's support these grant programs, but put my amendment in that says that the executive can't undermine the congressional intent and every state can equally apply this. So that, to me, was a fundamental assault on the separation of powers that we should not be participating in.

[David Leonhardt]

Okay.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yeah. God. If Donald Trump right now says to me, hey, Corey, I want to fund health care, I want to fund local police departments, I want to fund infrastructure so the commuters in my state, you're on board with that? I'm on board with that. That doesn't mean that I still, I'm somehow weaker in my stand up against his massive of crypto corruption that he's doing right now, I can call that out and still get things done. Remember, two of my favorite bills I've ever passed, One was criminal justice reform that liberated thousands of people from unjust incarceration. Bipartisan bill that he signed in his first term, including another one that got billions of dollars invested in the lowest income rural and urban places. Proud of that bill. He signed it. I don't care who you are, if you're an American and you have an idea that we can work on together. It's how I was as a mayor when I work with the Manhattan Institute and other conservatives to deliver for my community.

[David Leonhardt]

Draw a firm line on anything that that is anti Democratic, including bills that help red America, but not blue America, and then work together on the issues.

[Senator Cory Booker]

That actually look, I think this is an existential moment when it comes to what Donald Trump is doing to our, our country. And there are definitely times where the way he's twisted the Justice Department. I'm not voting anymore for Justice Department nominees when they are weaponizing the entire Justice Department and making people do things that has caused wholesale resignations in those departments. So, again, the bigger point is how you fight. And I'm going to have disagreements with other Democrats. And that is healthy because we're about to turn a page. It is a exciting page to me that the generation that is my parents generation is leaving the stage. The torch is being passed before our eyes. A new generation of American leadership is coming up. What an exciting time to redeem the dream in the Democratic Party. I want to have a very tough conversation and I want it to be a competition of ideas about what our party's going to look like. I'm one of those people that's saying, as our party has failed, they've made terrible mistakes. And I want us to emerge in this moment not focusing on party, but refocusing on people. And I'm so excited about that because this dark time, and forgive me, but this is my faith tradition now. Weeping may endure through the night, but joy cometh in the morning. I am telling you right now as, as heartbroken as so many of us feel. And I'm telling you in this moment, if America hasn't broken your heart, you don't love her enough. And so all those people who love this country and are in deep pain and wounded by what they see is happening right now, hold tight. The best chapter in a century, I think, is upon us. If we can get the leadership right.

[David Leonhardt]

What do you say to someone who says, yeah, I'd love to believe that, and certainly we've overcome darkness in the past, but why should I have any hope now that we're going to overcome it? How do you. We've talked a lot about optimism in this series, and I just think a lot of people struggle to summon optimism today.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Well, As I said to you, these are heartbreaking times, but that is a sign of great love. You cannot have great courage unless you face great fear. And you cannot have great hope unless you face great despair. And so right now, for us to give up on the American idea, on the American dream, when, when they didn't give up after four girls died in a bombing in Birmingham, they didn't give up at Stonewall when they were beaten down. They didn't give up after the Edmund Pettit's bridge when they were beaten back. There's nothing we're experiencing now that our ancestors didn't experience worse. And they fought through it and they brought about a new day.

[David Leonhardt]

Well, one of my heroes is a Philip Randolph. I would guess he's one of yours.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yes.

[David Leonhardt]

And he tried to start a union in the United States when it was a cent essentially impossible to try to start a labor union. Oh, and he tried to start it among black low income workers who had no union. And if I were sitting here with a Philip Randolph More than 100 years ago and saying, give me, give me bullet points of reason for your optimism, he wouldn't be able to do so. Really. And yet he kept faith and he kept doing works to your point. And there are no guarantees, but he prevailed.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yes. And so right now every American has a choice is to surrender the idea of America, to surrender to cynicism, to delve into despair, or to fight like hell. And we're here because of people who faced more improbable and impossible odds. And again, that is the very origin story of this country. I think this is a time to renew the deal of America. I think that's the moment we're in.

[David Leonhardt]

The stories you tell about America are so deeply patriotic. You've done it multiple times. Often today. Patriotism has this real right wing code, right, that if you see someone with an American flag on their truck or their car, the natural thing might be to assume they're a Republican. Can you sketch out for us as we think about what America's next story should be? What is a story of progressive patriotism that embraces both of those words and that doesn't focus on what the United States has done wrong? And the United States has done and continues to do a lot of things wrong. But what is a version of patriotism that isn't jingoistic but also embraces what is good and distinct about this country?

[Senator Cory Booker]

So just to affirm what you said, a friend of mine said that they hung a flag, or maybe it was her friend that hung a flag and their teenage son said, when did we become Republicans?

[David Leonhardt]

That's a problem for Democrats.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I don't think it's a problem for Democrats. I think it's a problem for America.

[David Leonhardt]

It's a problem for both fair.

[Senator Cory Booker]

And God. If I'm going to try to do anything in the coming years is to reclaim a deeper, more meaningful patriotism. That's not symbols and slogans. It's shared devotion to shared ideals. For those people who know this country has done wrong and want to use that as an excuse not to love America, they're making a tragic mistake that belies the people who fought to make this country as special as it is. When our imperfect founders debated slavery, they came on the wrong side of history. And yet there's these black people who loved America even when it didn't love them back and fought to make America real and uphold the founder's ideals despite the founder's shortcomings. It's not a patriotism that mistakes protests with being unpatriotic, that realizes actually protest is very much an American ideal, whether it's a Tea Party protest or no Kings protest. That's the patriotism that I want. And where do I see that patriotism today? I see it in a public school teacher who has kids now showing up, who no longer get the food program because of Donald Trump. And they reach in their own pocket, even though they don't know how they're going to provide for their family. You know what patriotism is? It's that cop that I know in Newark that works all day protecting people and then runs the Little League program. It's the people in our country that despite all of the divides, all of the hurt still do quiet acts of shared devotion to people around them, no matter what. I'm telling you that patriotism is infectious. My mission here is not to be a great Democrat. My mission here is to heal this country so that we can together redeem the dream. And that is not lofty words. That is pragmatic. Because Americans have stopped believing that this country works for them and their families. That's what. What the world needs from us again is to be the nation that elevates its people to do things that other people said couldn't be done. And the world will follow us.

[David Leonhardt]

Senator Cory Booker, thank you very much.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Thank you.

[Narrator]

If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Opinions is produced by Derek Arthur Bishaka Darba, Christina Samulewski and Gillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin and Alison Bruzek. Engineering, mixing and original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Sabaro and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Aman Sahota. The Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Christina Samulewski. The director of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.