America's Next Story: Senator Ruben Gallego

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Opinions – America’s Next Story: Senator Ruben Gallego

Host: David Leonhardt (The New York Times Opinion)
Guest: Senator Ruben Gallego
Date: October 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Opinions, hosted by David Leonhardt, features an in-depth conversation with Senator Ruben Gallego, the newly elected Democratic senator from Arizona who won his race even as Donald Trump carried the state in the 2024 presidential election. The episode explores Gallego’s diagnosis of the Democratic Party’s recent losses, his theories about authentic political messaging, the role of personal narrative, and what it means to restore the American Dream for ordinary Americans. Gallego shares insights drawn from his own working-class upbringing, military service, and experiences as a lawmaker.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Background and Political Motivation

• Gallego’s Path: Raised by a single mom in Chicago, attended Harvard, chose military service over a typical elite career, and served in Iraq ([02:23]–[03:40]).
  • Quote: “I needed to do something that had some meaning and drive in my life because the war really took a lot out of me.” – Gallego [03:30]
• Emotional Toll of Politics: Reflects on his non-elite background shaping his campaign and political approach.

2. Winning Arizona as a Democrat Amid a Trump Victory

• Mixed Election Night Emotions: Gallego won his race in Arizona even as Trump won the state and Harris lost ([03:56]–[04:54]).
  • Quote: “We were proud...we hit an amazing American story. We didn’t come from a lineage of senators, but then you have Trump...realizing that's going to be a very hard situation.” – Gallego [04:32]
• Diagnosis of Success vs. Party Failures:
  • Gallego’s focus: Addressing real concerns – cost of living, border security, decline of the American Dream.
  • He contrasts this with national Democrats, who he says spoke mostly to “what they were comfortable talking about,” especially abortion and democracy ([04:59]–[06:43]).
  • Quote: “We talked about the cost of everything, and we did it in a way that wasn’t an economic message. It was like an emotional message.” – Gallego [05:34]

3. Critique of Democratic Messaging and Cultural Disconnect

• The “Harvard Professor” Problem: Argues Democrats too often speak in academic terms alien to most voters ([07:20]–[09:57]).
• Rejecting ‘Latinx’ and Embracing Plain Language:
  • Quote: “You said it’s mostly a term that white liberals use. And Latinas and Latinos think it’s silly.” – Leonhardt [07:20]
• Prosperity vs. Equity: Gallego believes Democrats should unapologetically champion prosperity and opportunity, not just concepts like economic equity or justice ([08:00]–[09:57]).
  • Quote: “No one in my family’s involved in politics. Half my family’s are in union, but the other half are very working class...No one there talks about economic equity. What they talk about is I want to be able to buy a home. I am starting a business. I want to make money.” – Gallego [08:22]

4. “Big Ass Trucks” and Symbolism in Campaigning

• Trucks as Status Symbols: Gallego used the image of wanting a “big ass truck” to encapsulate aspirations for economic stability and family dignity across demographics ([09:57]–[11:31]).
  • Quote: “The truck, it’s symbolic because it really is a status symbol that you have succeeded in this country.” – Gallego [10:59]
• Breaking Through Cultural Barriers: Asserts Democrats must speak authentically to people’s real desires, not look down on them.

5. Abundance vs. Anti-Corporate Populism in Democratic Policy

• Reconciling Factions: Gallego favors blending “abundance” approaches (cutting bureaucracy, enabling more building and growth) with confronting corporate power and expanding social programs ([13:10]–[15:34]).
  • Quote: “Por que no los dos? Why can’t it be both?” – Gallego, referencing mixing policy approaches [14:09]

6. Admiration for Zoran Mamdani and the Importance of Affordability

• Learning from the Left: Praises Mamdani (NY Assemblymember) for talking about affordability in plain terms, even as he disagrees on some policies ([15:34]–[16:44]).
  • Quote: “At least he’s talking about it. At least he has some ideas, at least he’s pushing something.” – Gallego [16:17]

7. Political Messaging in the Age of Social Media

• Authenticity vs. Theatrics: Gallego credits authentic economic messaging—using accessible, real-life touchpoints (car shows, boxing matches, pickleball with suburbanites)—as his way to connect, regardless of media environment ([17:23]–[18:17]).
  • Quote: “The ability for any candidate or elected official to talk in an authentic way will carry through...less and less of us can speak about the personal checkbook.” – Gallego [17:46]

8. Immigration: Evolution and Democratic Missteps

• Sheriff Joe Arpaio Recall and Changing Democratic Positions:

  • Staunchly opposed to racial profiling, but supports strong border security and “sane immigration reform” ([19:52]–[22:56]).
  • Quote: “My position has not changed. I am for border security; I am for immigration reform...What happened in the last four years was absolutely out of norm of where Democrats are.” – Gallego [21:33]

• Balancing Principle and Strategy:

  • Challenges the purely oppositional stances that help Republicans own security issues.
  • Democrats must offer solutions, not just reactions, to win voters’ trust ([23:24]–[24:13]).
  • Quote: “If we’re only oppositional and just saying, ‘no, no, no,’ we’re going to end up losing this argument in the end because people generally want to be secure.” – Gallego [24:03]

9. Narratives, Strategy, and the “Rosa Parks” Example

• Messaging Strategy: Urges Democrats to “be smart about” whose stories they lift up—paralleling civil rights leaders’ strategic use of Rosa Parks ([25:57]–[27:10]).

  • Quote: “Let’s find the most caring person, the person that people can empathize with...Don’t rush to a fight that someone has already set up...” – Gallego [26:14]

• The ‘Marine Perspective’ in Politics:

  • Quote: “The Marines teach you everything is about mission objective first, and then you build your whole campaign...around mission objectives, and you’re agnostic about it.” – Gallego [27:30]

10. Restoring the American Dream

• Personal Story and Policy Vision:

  • Reflects on his own childhood, stressing the erosion of opportunity for working-class youth today ([29:45]–[32:27]).
  • The solution is to reconstruct "the infrastructure of hope and opportunity."
  • Quote: “I still think that we can. I think that the things that used to exist—the infrastructure of hope, of opportunity—is kind of slowly eroding…” – Gallego [30:45]

• Synthesis: America’s Next Story According to Gallego

  • Moderation that meets voters where they are.
  • Populism that stands for the powerless over the powerful.
  • Relentless optimism about the American Dream ([32:27]–[33:32]).
  • Quote: “The future is…the American dream. It’s the thing that has driven us forever…It’s what drove me on some really, really hard days.” – Gallego [32:52]

11. Memorable Closing Moment

• Emotional End:
  • Gallego gets choked up reflecting on how he doesn’t want other young people to fear striving won’t pay off. Ends on a light, human note as his son is present:
    • Quote: “You got tears out of me, David.” – Gallego [33:34]
    • Quote: “Fuck you. Oh, sorry, son. Don’t use that word.” – Gallego [33:38]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On Democrats’ Economic Messaging:
  “We talked about the cost of everything, and we did it in a way that wasn't an economic message. It was like an emotional message.” – Senator Ruben Gallego [05:34]

• On ‘Big Ass Trucks’ as Symbol:
  “The truck, it’s symbolic because it really is a status symbol that you have succeeded in this country.” – Gallego [10:59]

• On Combining Policy Approaches:
  “Por que no los dos? Why can’t it be both?” – Gallego [14:09]

• On Immigration and Political Strategy:
  “If we’re only oppositional and just saying, ‘no, no, no,’ we’re going to end up losing this argument in the end...” – Gallego [24:03]

• On Democratic Strategy and the Importance of Story:
  “Let’s find the most caring person, the person that people can empathize with...Don’t rush to a fight that someone has already set up, because…Trump’s people…set up traps of this nature all the time.” – Gallego [26:14]

• On the American Dream:
  “The future is…the American dream. It’s…the thing that has driven us forever. It’s what drove me on some really, really hard days.” – Gallego [32:52]

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Key Segment Timestamps

• [02:23] – Gallego’s decision to join the Marines
• [04:59] – Why Gallego won Arizona, Harris lost
• [07:20] – Gallego’s critique of “Latinx” and out-of-touch messaging
• [09:57] – “Big ass trucks” as central campaign symbolism
• [13:10] – Abundance vs. progressive economic policy
• [15:34] – Admiration for Zoran Mamdani’s messaging
• [17:23] – How Gallego broke through in Arizona’s attention economy
• [19:52] – Gallego’s arc on immigration and critique of policy extremes
• [25:57] – Lessons from Rosa Parks and the importance of storytelling
• [29:45] – Gallego’s vision of the American Dream for working-class Americans
• [32:27] – Leonhardt summarizes Gallego’s “next story” for America
• [33:33] – Emotional closing exchange

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Episode Takeaways

• Senator Gallego argues that Democrats must return to plain, emotion-driven messaging focused on prosperity and tangible opportunity, not just talking points about “equity” or “justice.”
• Authentic engagement with economic anxieties—using culturally resonant symbols—is key to reaching voters across lines of race, class, and ideology.
• Democrats need both strategic storytelling and substantive policy grounded in the realities voters face to compete against Republicans on issues like security and immigration.
• Restoring faith in the American Dream and rebuilding access to opportunity must be at the core of any future Democratic coalition.

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Transcript

[David Leonhardt]

Hi, I'm Juliette from New York Times.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Games, and I'm here talking to fans about our games. You play New York Times Games? Yes, every day.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

There's this little tab down here called Friends, so you can add your friend.

[David Leonhardt]

That feels new to me. It is.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

It's nice to have the social aspect.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Oh, my God. And you have all the Times.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

That's crazy, right? You can look at Spelling bee wordle Connections.

[David Leonhardt]

Oh, my God.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Amazing. Love that I have to get the app.

[David Leonhardt]

New York Times Games subscribers get full access to all our games and features. Subscribe [e-mail] games for a special offer.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

This is the Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times Opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.

[David Leonhardt]

I'm David Leonhart, an editorial director in New York Times Opinion, and this is America's Next Story, a series about the ideas that once held our country together and those that might do so again.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

We, the people, in order to form.

[David Leonhardt]

A more perfect union, ask what your.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Country can do for you.

[David Leonhardt]

Ask what you can do for your country.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

That America is too great for small dreams.

[David Leonhardt]

Change is what's happening in America, and we will make America great again.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

God bless you and good night.

[David Leonhardt]

I love you. Today I'm talking with Senator Reuben Gallego. He was a rare success story for the Democratic Party. Last year, he won a Senate seat in Arizona, even as President Trump was winning that same state. Gallego has a clear diagnosis about where Democrats have gone wrong and how they can start winning more often by telling a different story. In our conversation, we covered a lot of ground. What he has learned from Rosa Parks, what he admires about Zoran Mamdani, why he likes to talk about big ass trucks, and why he still gets emotional when he thinks about his own family's journey. Senator Gallego, thanks for being here.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Thanks for having me.

[David Leonhardt]

You've just dropped one of your kids off at daycare.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

That's right.

[David Leonhardt]

You just had a new baby. Congratulations.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Thank you.

[David Leonhardt]

And your oldest kid is here with us today in the studio.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes. He's on break, so he's gonna tag along with dad for a bit.

[David Leonhardt]

Let's go back to college.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Oh, God. Okay.

[David Leonhardt]

You went to Harvard in the early 2000s.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes.

[David Leonhardt]

And back then, as is still the case, the most popular things to do coming out of Harvard included tech and finance and consulting. You did something different. You went into the Marines. Why?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Well, it wasn't much of a choice. I was a reservist, and I had Always intended to serve my country one way or the other. And I joined about a year before September 11th, and after that, I went on a series of activations. And when I got out, I had basically one and a half years left on my contract. I moved to Albuquerque, New Mexico. And they told me if I joined that I would be sent to Iraq. And, you know, to be honest, I hated the war. I hated that we had gone to war. But I also felt very conflicted that if I didn't go, someone else is going to take my spots. And so I went. And unfortunately, it was a very hard activation. By the time I was done, you know, the war had. Had changed me a lot to the point where I just couldn't go and do the finance work, the other types of work. I needed to do something that had some meaning and drive in my life because the war really took a lot out of me.

[David Leonhardt]

And so you move to Arizona and you get involved in politics. You're. You're in the state legislature, and then you're elected to Congress, and then you run for U.S. senate. And let's go to election night last year, because you must have had mixed feelings. I mean, you win and you are going to the U.S. sen. A pretty young age.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

And you also realize that Donald Trump is going back to the presidency. What was that like when you realized that you were going to win but Kamala Harris was going to lose on.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

We knew on election night when the numbers came in from two big counties and one rural area, that there was basically no way for us to lose at that point. But seeing the numbers that the vice president hit was. And she was leading, but knowing how kind of votes break out, we knew that that wasn't going to hold. It was hard because I wanted to jump for joy. My family had sacrificed for two years to run for office. And, you know, we were proud of the, you know, as a family that, you know, we. We hit an amazing American story. You know, we didn't come from a lineage of. Of senators, but then, of course, you have Trump and you, you know, realizing that that's going to be a very hard situation. I was hopeful, to be honest, that maybe things would be better than they are right now, but they're not.

[David Leonhardt]

How do you diagnose why you won Arizona in particular, and Kamala Harris lost it.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

We were very real about what was actually happening on the ground, and we didn't lie to ourselves. I think a lot of Democrats running, and it wasn't just Vice President Harris that they wanted to talk about the things they were comfortable talking about. They didn't want to go to where the voter was.

[David Leonhardt]

So they wanted to talk about abortion and democracy.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Basically, yes. And sometimes there's some voters that want to talk about that. But what we were seeing on the ground in Arizona was that people were worried about being able to make the rent. They were worried about border security, and they were worried about, you know, what is truly happening to the American dream. And for a place like Arizona that was known to be affordable, had always been affordable for the first time in, you know, anybody's memory, it became a very unaffordable place very quickly. And we sound extremely out of touch that we weren't talking about that. Now, my campaign, we did talk about it. So it's all we talked about. We talked about the cost of everything, and we did it in a way that that wasn't an economic message. It was like an emotional message. Right. I talked about how I grew up poor, and I understand how frustrating it is. And I remember those days to work and work and work, and then look up and you're still underwater. And that is what was dragging down a lot of people in Arizona, especially working class Latino men who, you know, have a mentality that I can keep working and get myself out of the situation. But for the first time, I heard this, like, desperation that I had never heard in my 45 years of being a Latino man, that they just felt that they weren't going to make it. And we talked to them because I understood what they were going through. And I think a lot of Democrats did not do that, certainly not in Arizona. But I think also across the country.

[David Leonhardt]

I think if we had a member of Vice President Harris's campaign team here, they might say, hey, look, we tried. We criticized Donald Trump's tariffs as being attacks on the American people. We talked about her focus on lifting people up. And so I do think they tried. I'm interested.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I think they did try. I just think it's. There's a lot of. There's ways to do it that probably weren't able to connect.

[David Leonhardt]

Yeah. And I mean, what's interesting to me about this is it plays into, I think, this broader critique you've had about the Democratic Party, which is that how it talks to people.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Right. And how it treats people, too.

[David Leonhardt]

And how it treats people too. And you got a whole bunch of attention a few years ago for banning your staff in Congress from using the term Latinx.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

Which you said is mostly a term that white liberals use. And Latinas and Latinos think is silly. And I'm interested in your critique of how Democrats talk about the economy, because I think often the economy is an issue in which Democrats feel like, hey, we're comfortable on that issue. It's, it's not like immigration, it's not like gender. We're comfortable in the economy. But you've said actually basically the Democratic Party still talks, say too much like Harvard professors and not enough like Marine Corps members to use your life. And so specifically you've said this idea that Democrats should talk about the American Dream in terms of prosperity rather than quote, a nebulous mess message about justice.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes.

[David Leonhardt]

Can you be more specific about that?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

So, I mean, a lot of times, especially in the last couple of years, what I've heard coming from the Democratic side, my friends, is that they talk about economic equity. They talk about these ideas of essentially trying to equalize capitalism, to lift people out of poverty. And that's just not how people think. And it's also this assumption that the Democrats themselves, the actual base voters, don't want to be prosperous, they don't want to be rich, they don't want to be successful. And so we, we have this situation within Democratic talk where we kind of shy away from that because we feel like that's, you know, somehow icky. Right. You know, I'm surrounded by working class Democrats. And the reason I speak the way I speak is because no one in my family's involved in politics. Half my families are in union, but the other half are very working class. I have one sister who's a doctor. I live in a working class neighborhood in Phoenix. No one there talks about economic equity. What they talk about is I want to be able to buy a home. I am starting a business. I want to make money. I want my kids to do well. I want to be happy. And when we have these like, nebulous positions that people just can't put their finger on, then Democrats are kind of losing an opportunity. Because if we're the party of opportunity, if we're the party that's going to give you a real chance at the American dream, you know, buying a home, starting a business, being able to go on vacation, for God's sake, the things that people used to be able to do, then people say, that's the party that I want in there to fight for me. But when we're just this kind of like nebulous, blah group of people that is going to protect this idea, but we don't actually ever really do anything about it, they're Going to go off to something else shinier. And the shiner has come with Donald Trump.

[David Leonhardt]

This is the point where I have to ask about big ass trucks.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

In an interview with the New York Times, you said that what Latino men want is to own a big ass truck, which is connected very much to what you were just saying. And I assume you would say the point is broader than Latino men. It's men and women, men and women, everything else, Asian, black and white Americans.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I mean, I did, I said that mostly just to kind of break through this, because I've heard it so much like why Latino men go this way. I'm like, well, Latino men want things. There's a lot of Democrats and the kind of, the more liberal side that would hope that, that Latino men are more reflective and look, look and vote like, you know, white liberal men. They don't. They're different. They're entirely different. They have entirely different experience. And they're not like black men either. Right. They have entirely different experience. And so to kind of break through, like, you have to keep it simple. You know, they want security, they want economic security and they want physical security for their family. And their wants are legitimate. We shouldn't just shy away from or ignore it because it puts us in an uncomfortable spot. So the Trita, you know, the truck, it's symbolic because it really is a status symbol that you have succeeded in this country. It means that you can afford a brand new, nice truck, that you take that truck to work and that work brings dignity to your family. It helps you pay the bills, you get to load your kids on there, you get to go on vacation. It involves this whole symbolic gesture to your community that you are leading your family and that you are bringing them into the American dream. That's what it really represents. And I think a lot of people feel uncomfortable about that, but that really is as simple as that.

[David Leonhardt]

Also, trucks are fun.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Trucks are a lot of fun.

[David Leonhardt]

Yeah. So I think to me that's a version of you saying the party needs to talk more about prosperity.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

And less about things like equity and justice.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Look, I think there was a lot of thoughts post Obama that if we focus on equity and justice, then that somehow would be the unifier of, you know, the, the Democratic coalition. It ends up the biggest uniform Democratic coalition, you know, black, white, Latino, immigrants, Asians, everybody else is the personal checking account. That actually is what unifies our coalition. And when we walked away from that because of pure political convenience, our coalition started eroding more and more and more. And we're seeing it all the time.

[David Leonhardt]

Look, I, I didn't predict that Donald Trump would get increasing support over his political career from Latino and black and Asian Americans, but the fact is he has.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

And it feels like Democrats made this fundamental misdiagnosis, which is that people think of themselves first in terms of racial or ethnic groups. And it turns out that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

It depends. That's the other thing. It's like, when does it happen when there is a. That racial group feels like they collectively are under attack. Like I tell you right now, the Republican Party is going to lose badly with Latinos come 2026 because they move beyond, hey, we're going after criminals now. There's racially profiling in the streets. Right. You know, originally, I'm from Chicago. As you know, I have a lot of friends and family there, varying degrees of politics and who they support. And I would say I did see Latino men, especially in Chicago, moving away from the Democratic Party. That's not happening right now.

[David Leonhardt]

I promise we'll get to immigration in a couple.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

You don't have to. I talk about too much.

[David Leonhardt]

We will, we will. Let's stay on trucks for a minute. So, so you said big ass trucks, and then the writer Matthew Iglesias took that and coined this term big ass truck abundance.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Right.

[David Leonhardt]

Which plays into this policy debate on abundance within the Democratic Party. And so I'm going to overgeneralize a little bit. But the abundance crowd, which includes my colleague Ezra Klein, basically says the Democratic Party should focus on getting rid of bureaucracy and making more stuff, right? Houses, transportation, clean energy. And then there's another part of the debate which is more associated with the progressive wing of the party. Bernie Sanders, AOC that says no economic and political power is the issue. And we can't be naive. And we have to focus on cracking down on corporate power and we should be creating universal government programs for childcare, which is, I know, an issue you deal with in your own personal life.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Just today.

[David Leonhardt]

Just today. So do you think you're more on one side in that debate or do you straddle the two sides?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

There's a really good commercial for taco shells and the, you know, there's a debate of whether they should be soft or hard. And at the end of the commercial, this, you know, really cute Latina little girl says, por que no los dos? Why can't it be both? We should be able to mix both, both of this, right? We should be building things fast, as fast as possible, especially Housing. And the same time we should be making sure that monopolies don't control markets that are driving up prices. We should be able to build roads fast and the same time make sure that there's ways for us to have affordable child care for working class America. I don't understand why everyone seems to be in these corners because the American people aren't. That way if we make their lives better by both means, then we get the net benefit, which is their support and their vote.

[David Leonhardt]

And so you're saying you can be both pro abundance and you can be a populist who wants to take on corporate power?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Absolutely. It doesn't mean that everything's a fight. It doesn't mean like every corporation is bad, but there are some bad ones. Right? It doesn't mean that every regulation is bad, but there are some bad regulations. And I think we as policymakers, as the actual people that vote and our leaders, we have to be able to pick and choose when to use the tools. Right? So maybe sometimes it is abundance, sometimes it is going against, you know, our monopoly.

[David Leonhardt]

So it's interesting because I think the answers you just gave on abundance could also have been given by Zoran Mamdani, the New York politician.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I've heard of him.

[David Leonhardt]

I'm sure you have. What do you think of him?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Look, I think he really struck a chord. And when I talk about big ass truck policy and that's how I got a lot of people to vote, like the man's talking about affordable rents, right? And you know, you know, be able to afford a, I don't know, for New York, like a apartment with a second bathroom or something. Yeah, medium ass apartment, right. He talks about affordability. I disagree with some things, like I don't think they should have government run grocery stores, but I guarantee you there's a lot of New Yorkers are like, yeah, you know what, I don't agree with that. But at least he's talking about it. At least he has some ideas, at least he's pushing something. And I think there's a lot of Democrats that are missing the boat. Like we don't have to support him on everything. We could disagree in some areas, but the fact is that, that he talks about affordability, he talks about trying to make people's lives better. That's resonating. And now we may not agree how he's going to get there, but let's not ignore the lesson that, that he's showing.

[David Leonhardt]

I do think there's this interesting question about the attention economy today. Zoran Mamdani is clearly on the left part of the Democratic Party. Yes. And I think what we see today is that it often feels easier for people who are making arguments and drawing contrasts and their critics would say are at the extremes to get attention. You're much more moderate, and sometimes moderation can seem boring if we're being honest. But you figured out a way to break through in Arizona. How do you think about how someone with your politics doesn't just come off as boring and technocratic in this day and age of social media and attention?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I think what happened with us in Arizona was that we used some smart ways to kind of get into people's feeds. Right. We did boxing matches, we. We did car shows, truck shows, a lot of stuff. Hey, I reached out to white suburban people with pickleball tournaments, too. Right. So we did everything we could. But the reason, it resonates because, like, while I was using them to get their attention, I was talking to them about what they were really worried about right now. And the ability for any candidate or elected official to talk in an authentic way will carry through. It will. The problem is we have. And on the Democratic side, we have less and less of us that actually can speak about the personal checkbook and economics of a family in an authentic way. And it. That's why you could get on TV as much as you want, you could go on podcasts, you do your Instagram lives, and it's not going to catch.

[David Leonhardt]

It's really interesting because whether you're coming from the left or closer to the center, both Mamdani in New York and you in Arizona, your messaging really emphasized those economic issues.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah.

[David Leonhardt]

So he didn't talk in his mayoral campaign about ICE or about Gaza very much. He emphasized the same things you're talking about.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Right. Because that's what voters care about every day.

[David Leonhardt]

Yeah.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

You get reminded about it every week. So, you know, I have three kids. You know, we have a family of five, but we go grocery shopping every week. So I see that grocery bill, and I'm very lucky. My wife and I make a good salary, so it. It doesn't impact us that much. But I noticed that price and I still have poor boy mentality. When you grow up poor, it's hard to get out of that mentality. So I'm still kind of watching all this. If I'm seeing this, I can't imagine what a family is thinking every Saturday and Sunday when they go shopping. Yeah, right. Yeah. And, yeah, you know, it hits. It just hits.

[David Leonhardt]

So we've touched on immigration a couple times. Now. Let's really dig in on it. One of your early forays into politics in Arizona was you helped lead a recall campaign against Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yeah, I got very close, too.

[David Leonhardt]

Who was this, as I'm sure many listeners remember, was this cruel, anti immigrant sheriff.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yep.

[David Leonhardt]

And more recently, I think your image on immigration has changed in your campaign. You criticize Joe Biden's open immigration policy. You co sponsored the Lake and Riley act, which calls for the detention of undocumented immigrants who've committed certain crimes even before the court trial has happened. How would you describe your own personal evolution or not on immigration?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

It has actually been that much of evolution. You know, why was I trying to recall Sheriff Joe? And I'm. He was racially profiling Americans. He was racially profiling Latinos because we were brown. He was pulling them over while driving. Brown. Nothing to do with immigration, Nothing else like that. Number one, that's. And, and then I will do it again, should that ever happen again. Number two, I think the Democratic understanding of immigration and illegal immigration has always been pretty basic. And then it went awry, which is we're for border security, we're for, you know, humanitarian immigration reform, and we're for reforming the visa worker permit. Something happened where all of a sudden, now we were also supposed to be extremely liberal when it comes to asylum seekers.

[David Leonhardt]

When do you think that happened?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

It's, it's sometime happening between Trump and Biden. And I think there was this overall reaction to Trump in his first term that a lot of people just assumed that this is where the new conversation went and that policy went when there was some of us that grew up, you know, both on the border one way or the other. I also lived in Mexico for a little bit and, and, you know, have family and all levels of immigration going on through my whole life. When that started happening, a lot of us were like, whoa, whoa, that's not what we want. But nobody wanted to listen to us. And what happened was that a lot of policymakers started listening to some more liberal people about what was happening at the border.

[David Leonhardt]

Liberal people who claimed to speak for the Latino community.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Correct. Yes.

[David Leonhardt]

And in many cases, liberal people who themselves were Latino. The ones getting a hearing in the administration.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes, essentially. And because they were in their little bubbles and, you know, without any personal experience, the administration just basically listened to them. And for us, that had always had the same position. Right. My position has not changed. I am for border security, I am for immigration reform, sane immigration reform. If you're a criminal, you should be convicted and deported. Right. That's never changed. The problem is we went totally to an area where a lot of Democrats weren't. And so my position, I think, is where traditionally Democrats have been, if you hear what Hillary Clinton was saying, if you hear what Barack Obama was saying, hear what Bill Clinton was saying about immigration, that's the. Been the traditional place. What what happened in the last four years was absolutely out of norm of where Democrats are and why we lost, because I don't know where most Americans are. And now if you see what's happening right now, most Americans are very unhappy what's happening with immigration right now because they like that the border is secure and which, and I get yelled at all the time because I say, you know, it's a good thing that the.

[David Leonhardt]

Border is secure, meaning Trump is secure.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes, exactly. That's a good thing. It's a value to this country that we have the lowest amount of illegal immigrants crossing the border right now. What I want them to do now is let's do immigration reform, stop racially profiling, stop deploying national Guards to patrol these streets that are supposedly are dangerous, and really invest in a smart way of dealing with a broken system.

[David Leonhardt]

So I think that's what some Democrats who are in a little bit of a different place than you would say, which is there will be a time to debate the finer points of immigration policy and a time to vote for a bill like the Lake and Riley act or not vote for it. But this isn't that time. We've got federal agents in masks picking people up off the street. We've got the president deporting people to a horrible foreign prison without due process. We've got the president and his administration racially profiling Latinos based on the way they have to do both and speak. And so you have.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Because here's why you have to do both, David. If you give the voter the option of saying either we're going to have security that's way too strong or no security at all, they're going to give the more security side the benefit of doubt. So the Democrats, we had to have a position that is a position that Americans can gather to and say, you know what, I totally disagree what this guy is doing, you know, with the, the roundups, the deportations, everything else like that. What I want to see is what the Democrats are proposing and what they're proposing is where, where I am, if we're only oppositional and just saying, no, no, no, we're going to end up losing this argument in the end because people generally want to be secure. And if we don't give them some type of idea what we're bringing, they're going to go to whoever is giving them any type of security.

[David Leonhardt]

Let me read you what Governor J.B. pritzker of Illinois recently said. He said this is exactly the moment for people to stand up. And do I see enough people doing it? No, I don't. Do you disagree with that?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I think this is the moment to stand up. I think there are people that are moving into the fight. This is not a very easy situation for, I think a lot of people in your everyday American. You know why? It's not that they want an open border. It's not that they want people deported. There's just a lot of stuff going on in their lives right now. There's just a lot of stuff. And, you know, from talking to my family that's still in Chicago, they're afraid. I mean, this is the first time that being picked up, afraid of being picked up. They're afraid for their country. You know, asking for people to take action. Right now, it's not as easy as it sounds because people are generally afraid of what could happen. And that is part of this, I think, decision making that's happening right now. But it's not like, you know, we're going to be able to protest like we used to back in the day because people are generally afraid for their, their personal safety.

[David Leonhardt]

I think I've also heard you suggesting that Democrats need to be strategic about this, and you probably wouldn't put it this way, but not always stand on principle. So after.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I would never put it that way.

[David Leonhardt]

I know you wouldn't, but that's why I want to push you a little bit. It feels fair. So you. I read an interview where you were discussing Trump's deportation of alleged gang members to El Salvador, and you said it's important to defend due process. And look, you've criticized Trump, as you're doing here, but you also said Democrats shouldn't, quote, just jump and automatically assume that, number one, that the person you're advocating for is someone that people can empathize with. And so I'm kind of interested in. In. You basically said, look, that was an unjust deportation, but it's not the fight we want to have.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Yes, it's. Look, you got to be smart about this. You know, there's very perfect examples, you know, throughout any type of movement. You know, I'll give you a good example. When Rosa Parks was Arrested for refusing to go to the back of the bus. It wasn't coincidence that it was Rosa Parks. They had purposely, you know, vetted a lot of candidates to. Who would be the best example of this horrible segregation system? If we want to point out how awful this deportation system is, what it's doing to families, we should do it in a smart way. Let's find the most caring person, the person that people can empathize with, the person that says, I want that person to stay in our country. Right. Don't rush to a fight that someone has already set up, because these guys, you know, and I think a lot of people don't quite understand Donald Trump's people are smart. They set up traps of this nature all the time, and they love nothing more for us to just run in there and just get into it with them. And they have all the advantages. They've already set up the fight field to fight in. They have all the information, and we're just, you know, playing catch up. If you want to win, and I think that's the ultimate goal. Let's be smart about actually doing this. Right. Why not use, you know, the people that can actually connect with this issue?

[David Leonhardt]

And this is a podcast series about what America's Next Story should be. And what you're saying is be smart about the story that the Democratic Party is telling.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Absolutely. We have to want to win, and we have to plan to win. Those things don't necessarily happen in Democratic politics. And I've seen it over and over and over again. I've. I've never lost a race every time I run. And the reason I've never lost a race is largely because I don't bring any political perspective. I bring a Marine perspective to this. The Marines that teach you everything is about mission objective first, and then you build your whole campaign, your whole plan, your whole battle plan around mission objectives, and you're agnostic about it. And so when we ran for, you know, the House, for the Senate, you know, I figured out what did I need to win? Put the plan together and go. Democrats sometimes try to stumble into victories, and that might be fine, but this really means people's lives are in danger. Democrats not winning in 2024, in 2016, really cost us a lot of our positions and values that are going to be in danger for quite a while.

[David Leonhardt]

And I would say that I think sometimes Democrats confuse the story that they want to be the winning message with the one that actually is going to be the one. Yes.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Because it makes them uncomfortable. Then why are we doing this right, we need to win. With us not winning, we don't have the Supreme Court, we won't have the Supreme Court for quite a while. Us now picking up a couple Senate seats for the last couple of years puts us out of potentially holding power. Again, the Senate, all the victories we avoided because we were afraid of these conversations, these icky conversations. Look what's happening to this country now.

[David Leonhardt]

And there's a class aspect of this, which is the people who often find these positions and conversations icky tend to be more affluent and more educated and in working class neighborhoods. Actually, people are quite willing to engage in these conversations for the most part.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

And they do all the time.

[David Leonhardt]

And they do all the time.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Like going back to the big ass truck, everyone's like, oh, you look down, you're looking down on Latino men by saying all they want is a big ass truck. Like, quite the opposite, actually. The problem that happens in kind of elite Democratic politics is that we don't think that the voter is that smart. We believe that we have to dumb things down when, like, the voters are fairly sophisticated, they not use sophisticated language or anything else of that nature, but they know what they're feeling and they know when we're throwing bullshit at and they will vote in their own interests. Until we're willing to accept that, until we're willing to actually have real conversations, we're going to be finding ourselves still on a declining support level.

[David Leonhardt]

Let's end by connecting your personal story with what you think the country's next story should be. So, as you mentioned, you grew up in Chicago, you grew up poor with a single mom and three sisters. And it's the kind of story in Broad Brush that I think used to feel more typical than it does today. There's less upward mobility and I think a lot of Americans are understandably angry about a lot of things. And yet you made optimism absolutely central to your campaign. Here are the opening lines of the ad that introduced you to Arizona voters last year.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Growing up poor, the only thing I really had was the American dream, an opportunity. It's the one thing that we give every American, no matter where they are born in life.

[David Leonhardt]

I think for a lot of people, it's an incredibly inspiring story, whether it's one generation or whether it's three generations.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Eight generations, whatever it is.

[David Leonhardt]

Yeah. And it's often connected to the American immigrant experience. And I guess I have to ask, do you still think we give that opportunity to every American?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

I still think that we can. I think that the things that used to exist. The infrastructure of hope, of opportunity is kind of slowly eroding. I think what we need to do as Democrats, as Americans is put that back together. So for me, you know, for me it was, I had a decent school, my mom was a secretary, wasn't great pay, but wasn't horrible pay. We had an affordable apartment. Yeah, I slept in the living room, but we stayed in that apartment. It was in the same school districts. I had support all around me. I knew that if I got good grades, I could afford to go to college, I could get a scholarship. There was this idea that my, my sacrifice, my family sacrifice was going to have an end results. What I hear, and this is why the campaign started the way it is, because especially for working class people, they don't feel that anymore. And the, the future of America has to go back back to the future of where a Ruben Gallego felt comfortable and believing that the American dream was possible. Right. We have to be able to be able to tell, you know, the, the kid in Kentucky or the, the kid in California, yeah, you're poor. Yeah, you know, life sucks, but if you do this, this, this, you're going to be fine. Right. And until we actually not just talk about it, but put back the policies and in the, again, the infrastructure of how to become successful, how to get out of poverty, people aren't going to believe it.

[David Leonhardt]

Can I take a crack at telling you what I, what I think you think America's next story should be?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Sure.

[David Leonhardt]

So it should be one part, call it Rosa Parks moderation, respecting voters, meeting them where they are. I think it's one part populism. You talk about taking on the rich and powerful. I mean, you've said it. If you're in Congress and you're spending more time with the powerful than the powerless, you're doing the job wrong.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Right.

[David Leonhardt]

And I think it's one part optimism. It is about the American dream. Is that fair?

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Fair? It's very fair. Look it. Honestly, I think if you, if I had to say what the future is, is the American dream. It's, it's the thing that's has driven us forever. It's what drove us to the shores here, it's what drove us west. It's what drove people from all over the world to come here. It's what drove me, you know, some really, really hard days. Like I remember, like just being very angry as a young man. And it wasn't because of the situation that I was in. My anger was the idea that I'm going to work so hard and I may not succeed. And I just don't think I want to have any other young man or woman have that feeling.

[David Leonhardt]

Senator Ruben Gallego.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Thank you.

[David Leonhardt]

Thank you so much.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Thank you so much. All right. You got tears out of me, David.

[David Leonhardt]

All right.

[Senator Ruben Gallego]

Fuck you. Oh, sorry, son. Don't use that word.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. The Opinions is produced by Derek Arthur Vishaka Darba, Kristina Samulewski and Gillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin and Alison Bruzek. Engineering, mixing and original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Sabaro and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Aman Sahota. The Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Christina Samulewski. The director of Times Opinion Audio is is Annie Rose Strasser.