Podcast Summary: The Opinions – America’s Next Story: Trumpism After Trump

Date: October 6, 2025
Host: David Leonhardt, The New York Times Opinion
Guest: Gladden Pappin, Editor of American Affairs, President of the Hungarian Institute of International Affairs

Episode Overview

This episode explores the enduring legacy of “Trumpism” in American politics: Is Trumpism merely the product of Donald Trump’s personality, or is it a sustainable political ideology poised to shape the Republican Party and the nation long after Trump leaves office? Host David Leonhardt interviews Gladden Pappin, a leading voice among national conservatives and a key figure in building the intellectual scaffolding for Trump’s second term. Together, they discuss the origins and future of Trump’s political movement, key critiques of both the old right and modern liberalism, the centrality of issues like immigration and deindustrialization, and concerns over democracy and polarization.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rise of Trumpism: Personal Phenomenon or Lasting Movement?

• Trump’s Emergence
  • Gladden Pappin recounts his initial skepticism of Donald Trump’s 2015 campaign, viewing Trump as a “political provocateur” (03:13), but notes that by early 2016, Trump’s platform resonated with “a segment of the American population which was conservative, but had been left behind by the Republican Party.”
  • Early supporters felt compelled to write anonymously “because there was such a cloud of suspicion around Trump…in the intellectual and political classes.”
  • Notable Quote:
    • “Everyone is treating this guy as though he’s the most unserious person. But what if the reverse is true? What if the continuation of the present norms is the biggest mistake?” — Gladden Pappin (04:38)

2. The “Old Conservative” Story and Its Limitations

• Republican Establishment Pre-Trump
  • Pappin describes the pre-Trump GOP as stuck in Cold War-era narratives:
    • “They're the country of centralization; we're the country of free markets...more radical free markets are needed here...liberal democracy...needs to be spread everywhere” (06:10)
    • This vision, he argues, became outdated in the face of deindustrialization and global economic shifts—“the Republican Party didn’t really have a way of correcting itself until a big explosion came through.” (07:31)
• Host’s Reflection
  • Leonhardt frames Trump’s rise as a consequence of both Republican and Democratic failures, noting that many working-class voters—once Democratic—felt left behind by neoliberal and globalist policies. (08:01)

3. National Conservatism: Core Themes and Voter Appeal

• Culture, Patriotism, and “Forgotten” Americans
  • Pappin argues the populist left and right have both missed core economic anxieties, focusing instead on social issues less central to many:
    • “Which one is going to bring the factory back?...We need to put America back together or we need to stop the things that are tearing it apart—mass migration and deindustrialization.” (09:23)
• Why Immigration Is Central
  • Immigration has become the defining flashpoint:
    • Quote:
      • “At some point, mass immigration became presented by those in favor of it as either a moral obligation...or economically rational...but in the communities that voted for Trump, that hit hard.” — Pappin (11:42)
    • In the US, the sense of “moral and political obligation to accept mass flows of people” (14:48) when communities are already struggling has fueled backlash and radicalization.

4. Immigration & the Role of Race

• Complex Motivations and Political Consent
  • Leonhardt probes the racial dimensions of immigration politics, acknowledging mixed motives across demographics (13:40).
  • Pappin, himself Osage, argues focus is misplaced: opposition to immigration is, for most, about legality, consent, and being “berated into” policies voters never asked for. Rhetorically, he claims, constant accusations of racism have made some younger people “say, yeah, whatever”—hardening their opposition out of alienation. (14:48–17:48)

5. Is the Populist Right Hostile to Democracy?

• Concerns Over Democratic Norms
  • Leonhardt raises sharp questions about anti-democratic behavior on the right—pointing to January 6th, Trump and Orban’s election rule changes, and attacks on institutions. He asks if the new right can win “fair elections”—or if it seeks to “shift the rules” instead (18:00–19:21).
• Pappin’s Counterpoint
  • He deflects, arguing threats to democracy come from both sides, citing far-right movements excluded in Europe. He asserts delegitimization by the “liberal left” has bred rightwing radicalism (19:21).
  • Quote:
    • “The feeling that there is no political change possible is the greatest source of radicalization on both sides...” — Pappin (20:14)

6. Accountability for Actions: January 6th & Beyond

• Responsibility and Red Lines
  • Leonhardt insists that conservative principle demands people “are responsible for their own actions”—that violence, lies about elections, or abuse of state power can’t be excused by grievances against the left (22:11).
  • Pappin focuses on the Trump administration’s challenge to “every American institution”—including asking, “What is the American purpose which your institution is serving?” (22:57–24:56).

7. The Future of National Conservatism and Trumpism (Post-Trump)

• Emerging Leaders and Institutionalization
  • Pappin points to J.D. Vance as Trump’s running mate as evidence that “Trumpism or the new right…really important because JD had become a key element” in building new conservative institutions—“American Affairs, American Compass, American Moment, American whatever.” (25:37)
  • Other figures include Marco Rubio and a new “policy elite” rising within the Republican Party focused on “industrial policy” and “reshoring the American industrial base.”
  • Quote:
    • “It’s clear there’s a bench growing that’s going to be active in Republican politics for a very long time…They all went through all those institutions and they have a mentality of creating a new policy elite, creating a new team in this orientation.” — Pappin (27:09)

8. The “Positive Story” After Trump

• Message for the Next Decade
  • Leonhardt suggests Trump’s legacy is largely “a negative story about the country” and asks for the positive vision national conservatives can offer post-Trump (28:09).
  • Pappin frames it as restoring American agency—“master of its own destiny,” whether it’s going to Mars or rebuilding American industry:
    • “If you control your borders, then you can open them, you can close them, you can do whatever you want, but you get to decide. And I think that loss of control is what led to a lot of excesses or a lot of radicalism here and there. And that’s the key thing that has to be grasped in the upcoming 10 years.” (28:35)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “What if the continuation of the present norms is the biggest mistake? And what if it takes someone like Trump to break through them?”
  — Gladden Pappin (04:38)
• “The feeling that there is no political change possible is the greatest source of radicalization on both sides.”
  — Gladden Pappin (20:14)
• “People are responsible for their own actions. That’s sort of a nice conservative principle.”
  — David Leonhardt (22:11)
• “It’s clear there’s a bench growing that’s going to be active in Republican politics for a very long time...They have a mentality of creating a new policy elite, creating a new team in this orientation.”
  — Gladden Pappin (27:09)

Important Segment Timestamps

• 03:13 – Gladden Pappin on his shift from skepticism to support for Trump
• 06:10 – Description of the pre-Trump Republican vision
• 09:13 – The realignment of social priorities and working-class discontent
• 11:35 – Why immigration became the centerpiece issue
• 14:48 – How race, legality, and political consent shape immigration debates
• 17:48 – Leonhardt raises concerns about rightwing anti-democratic tactics
• 19:21 – Pappin on perceived bias and democratic backlash from both sides
• 22:11 – Discussion of accountability for January 6th and Trump’s actions
• 25:37–27:09 – New generation of national conservatives and institutional change
• 28:35 – Pappin’s vision for national conservatism’s positive story

Conclusion

This episode offers a candid, deeply informative debate over the roots, appeal, and possible future of “Trumpism”—moving far beyond the man himself to examine what could make national conservatism a durable force in American politics. It highlights not only the grievances and ideas motivating the movement but also the unresolved tensions over democracy, legitimacy, and the need for a positive national vision as America enters a new political era.