Can Embracing Punk Save Gen Z — and Our Flailing Country?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Opinions – "Can Embracing Punk Save Gen Z — and Our Flailing Country?"

Release Date: June 4, 2025

In this episode of The Opinions, hosted by Carl Swanson, the conversation delves into the intersection of youth culture, political activism, and the enduring spirit of punk. Featuring insights from John Cameron Mitchell, renowned actor, writer, and director of Hedwig and the Angry Inch and Short Bus, the episode explores whether adopting punk ideals can rejuvenate Generation Z and address the nation's current challenges.

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1. Introduction and Context (00:32 – 02:04)

Carl Swanson sets the stage by addressing the early months of the second Trump administration and the cultural responses it has elicited. Highlighting John Cameron Mitchell’s recent essay, Carl introduces the central thesis: "Today's young people need to learn how to be more punk." This premise invites listeners to consider punk not just as a music genre but as a broader cultural and political ethos that could influence positive change.

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2. John Cameron Mitchell’s College Tour and Academia (02:04 – 04:48)

John Cameron Mitchell shares experiences from his self-initiated 14-college tour, initially motivated by economic reasons but rapidly evolving into a platform to discuss pressing cultural issues. He describes his role as an "independent voice contractor," navigating the tightrope of political correctness and academic pressures. Mitchell observes that both left and right political forces are exerting influence, often leading to censorship and self-segregation within academic institutions.

Notable Quote:

"We're in a tipping point, certainly in academia, with pressure, old fashioned pressure from the left and political correctness. And then suddenly Trump is now leaning on these same places for his own purposes, kind of bullying purposes, to kind of shut them down from the right, censor wise." (03:10)

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3. Political Correctness and Cancel Culture (04:48 – 07:09)

The discussion shifts to the emergence of cancel culture and its impact on public discourse. Mitchell critiques the "progressive purity" that inhibits open dialogue and fosters an environment where individuals fear being "canceled" for their views. He contrasts this with the more trollish, confrontational energy adopted by the right, suggesting that both extremes stifle meaningful conversations necessary for societal progress.

Notable Quote:

"We've done Trump's work for him by separating ourselves. Seeking a purity that is not found in nature. A certain kind of progressive purity." (05:20)

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4. Defining Punk (07:09 – 10:10)

Carl prompts Mitchell to elaborate on his conception of punk, probing its roots and evolution. Mitchell traces punk’s origins from its Detroit beginnings with bands like MC5 and Iggy Pop—which carried political undertones—to New York’s more art-centric scene, exemplified by Patti Smith and The Ramones. He emphasizes that punk is inherently about stepping outside approved systems, whether through political rebellion, creative expression, or cultural transgression.

Notable Quote:

"Punk came from all sources... the punkness was stepping outside the approved system." (09:01)

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5. Embracing Punk Today: Community and Creativity (10:10 – 13:20)

Mitchell explores how embracing punk can invigorate Gen Z by fostering community, creativity, and a willingness to challenge the status quo. He encourages young people to engage in "social intercourse"—interpreting sexual metaphors as the importance of reaching out and forming genuine connections. Mitchell critiques the "doom scrolling" phenomenon and advocates for actionable creativity that contributes to local communities rather than succumbing to the paralyzing effects of constant information overload.

Notable Quote:

"Youth is punk inherently. You know, it's about questioning the status quo. It's about experiencing as much as you can. It's about trying out new modes of clothes and activity and political things too." (12:49)

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6. Intergenerational Perspectives and Hope for the Future (13:20 – 16:18)

Addressing potential concerns about generational disconnect, Mitchell acknowledges initial apprehensions about whether his punk ideology resonates with today’s youth. However, positive receptions from institutions like Tulane, LSU, and UCLA reinforce his belief in the relevance of punk values. He recounts his ongoing projects, including a play about Claude Colquhoun, a punk artist who resisted Nazi occupation, illustrating punk’s enduring legacy as a tool for resistance and change.

Mitchell expresses optimism about the role of small cities and big towns in nurturing future creativity, contrasting them with the perceived stifling environment of larger urban centers like New York.

Notable Quote:

"The only thing that has ever made me feel better when I dejected by the situation is creativity generally with someone else. And creativity that is useful, not just a calling card for your career or fitting into the system." (15:00)

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7. Conclusion and Future Outlook (16:18 – End)

Carl and Mitchell conclude by pondering whether the left can reclaim its punk essence. Mitchell contends that while political correctness has fragmented the left, a return to authentic creativity and community engagement rooted in punk principles offers a path forward. His vision emphasizes active participation, local initiatives, and creative resistance as means to foster a more resilient and dynamic society.

Notable Quote:

"Youth implies suspicion of status quo and seeking to improve as well as seeking all experience... And part of that youth thing is also defining yourself, right?" (12:09)

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Key Takeaways:

• Punk as a Catalyst: Embracing punk’s rebellious and creative spirit can empower Gen Z to challenge societal norms and effect positive change.

• Community Engagement: Active participation in local communities and fostering genuine connections are essential for overcoming the isolating effects of modern digital culture.

• Balancing Dialogue: Navigating the extremes of political correctness and cancel culture requires fostering environments where intellectual discomfort leads to growth rather than division.

• Creative Resistance: Utilizing creativity as a form of resistance and activism remains a powerful tool for marginalized and progressive movements.

This episode offers a thought-provoking exploration of how the ethos of punk can serve as a foundation for youth activism and societal transformation in an era marked by political polarization and cultural stagnation.

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Transcript

[Robert Vinlowen]

Hey, I'm Robert Vinlowen. I'm from New York Times Games, and I'm here talking to people about wordle and the wordle Archive. You all play wordle?

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Yes.

[Robert Vinlowen]

I have something exciting to show you.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Okay.

[Robert Vinlowen]

It's the wordle Archive.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Oh, oh. And you can see if I missed.

[Robert Vinlowen]

It, I can, like, go back 100%.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Oh, that's sick.

[Robert Vinlowen]

So now you can play every wordle that has ever existed. There's like a thousand puzzles. Oh, my God, I love it. Amazing. New York Times game subscribers can now access the entire Wordle archive. Find out more at nytimes.com games.

[Carl Swanson]

This is the Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times Opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.

My name is Carl Swanson, and I'm the deputy editorial director for culture at Times Opinion. We are only four months into the second Trump administration, so it's too early to say what the cultural response will be, but. But it's not too early to ask the question, what should the response be? From art, music, and from youth culture. The actor, writer and director John Cameron Mitchell recently wrote an essay for us with an answer to that question. Today's young people need to learn how to be more punk. Mitchell is the writer and performer behind Hedwig and the Angry Inch.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Thank you. My name is Hedwig. Please welcome those ambassadors of Eastern Block rock, the Angry Inch.

[Carl Swanson]

Here they are, the cult rock musical and film. He also wrote and directed the film Short Bus, which explores community, pleasure and sex.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Look at all these people out there. They're trying to find the right connection. And I personally expect a few blown fuses before the night is over, and maybe one of them will be yours.

[Carl Swanson]

Millennials probably know him better from his role in Lena Dunham's Serious Girls, playing a kind of tetchy book editor. I've known John Kevin Mitchell for about 20 years, and he's with us today to discuss what he means by punk and what he learned from touring around college campuses here. John, welcome.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Thank you, Carl.

[Carl Swanson]

Well, before we get into punk, I wanted to just talk to you a little bit about, well, just, you know, what you were doing the last four months. Like, tell me a little bit about the tour that you did, what it sort of consisted of.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Yeah, the tour came about purely for economic reasons. Oh, I'm not acting anymore. I'm going to, you know, do a bit of teaching. I'll cold email a bunch of department heads of colleges that have some resources and Say, hey, I'm available. Film, tv, whatever, screenings, singing, you know, gender studies, whatever you want to talk about, I'm available. So I booked my own 14 college tour, and a lot of the professors were even people I knew, you know, my generation. And it started out just as a gig, no gigs. And almost immediately I realized we're in a tipping point, certainly in academia, with pressure, old fashioned pressure from the left and political correctness. And then suddenly Trump is now leaning on these same places for his own purposes, kind of bullying purposes, to kind of shut them down from the right, censor wise. So you have this very narrow fire island, wooden pathway that they can walk, and you go one side or the other and someone might complain and you lose your job. So I came in as an independent voice contractor in a way, and oftentimes they were like, we can't talk about these hot button issues, but you can.

[Carl Swanson]

Do you feel like that was expressed? That was sort of an expressed part of what the.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

It was not everybody, but, you know, some of them were like, actually kick their asses with love, John. You know, actually, let's talk to them. You know, life doesn't have trigger warnings or consent waivers. Let's talk about, from your point of view, being someone who's always been a bit punk in the way I've made things about what they're. Cause the kids are like fetuses. They came up through Covid. They can't look you in the eye and they know it. They're smart enough to even make fun of the fact that they're trapped in their beds and wearing slippers all year round. And everyone's trapped in their identity and they're like, looking for trouble. You know, they're 20 years old and seeking the flaw out, almost like a cranky old granny. They were getting old before their time in their rush to be correct, to help to correct the world, and then start to correct each other and their friends. Because you don't cancel a dictator that's in charge. You cancel who you can.

[Carl Swanson]

Right.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

That's usually someone who's in the room.

[Carl Swanson]

Yeah.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Or online with you. We started to correct our buddies to the point where a lot of people were like, I'm out. You know, I'm afraid of being too corrected or canceled or this that. So I'm just stepping out of the public discourse. I'm not talking about anything controversial. So I was like, guys, we're separating ourselves. You know, as one of the professors said, we've done Trump's work for him by separating ourselves. Seeking A purity that is not found in nature. A certain kind of progressive purity.

[Carl Swanson]

Well, this is, I think one of the things that's interesting is the way that the kind of trollish right has taken on that sort of punkish energy. And then the left, of course, became more puritanical, became more sort of like conservative. And in some ways conservative. Yes.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Puritanism is built into our American society anyway. I mean, sadly, in a national way, I think, yes. Trump's taken over a kind of adversarial, owning the libs. He's made politics into actual sports.

[Carl Swanson]

Right.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

And people have chosen their team.

[Carl Swanson]

Yes.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Even if they fail. Right. They've chosen Trump.

[Carl Swanson]

Yes.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

We as progressive people are less forgiving of our leaders.

[Carl Swanson]

Do you think that the kids realize that they can't correct each other into the world being a better place?

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Well, I think they're starting to realize that because of what happened in the election and partially it was because of those people seeking purity that he was elected. They maybe didn't vote for Kamala because she was tainted by Gaza. Right wing people love to ignore the peccadilloes. They love to just trust and they love a dictator. They love a daddy.

[Carl Swanson]

So tell me about the kids this year. What specifically? What do they sort of feel like or say?

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Well, they're bewildered, they're really stunned because the tools they have, which is correction online, don't work now. They're starting to realize there has to be a new way of thinking. And I was encouraged them to look to their youth. What is inherent in youth? The idea of hope, the idea of change, and even the idea of rebellion against older Gen Zs who are saying certain things. And I actually had young people saying, well, how do we deal with fascism?

[Carl Swanson]

Uh huh.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

The same way they said, how do we access the punk?

[Carl Swanson]

Let's roll back a little bit and talk about punk and your concept of punk. Tell me about what that meant to you. I mean, I know you were sort of a. You grew up in a military family.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Yeah.

[Carl Swanson]

And you were sort of a theater kid. Moved to New York and was a Broadway show. Great Broadway shows.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Yeah. And started doing tv.

[Carl Swanson]

Tell me about that scene in New York at that time.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Yeah, well that before that was la and there was a kind of underground queer scene there too. And then I came to New York in 90 and in the midst of this all was, you know, AIDS was everywhere. And as a young gay man, I was the first generation that came out sexually during safe sex. So I was saved in a way. Whereas people a couple years older who came out, you know, in 83, were not safe and were dying. So I had this weird optimism of youth, which I would see on my college tour, but also like blunted by the mortality of my actual coming out and the negligence of the government letting us die. And so AIDS activism was truly punk. It was outside the system. It was using imagery in the way that punk bands would. And they took that kind of art into AIDS activism.

[Carl Swanson]

It would be sort of to shake people up. It was imagery that would translate us.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

To remind them that this was happening.

[Carl Swanson]

It was transgressive, but also it would shake people off. Their sort of sense of like, this is quiet, this is over there. You have to see this, you have to acknowledge it.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Yeah, this is happening around you.

[Carl Swanson]

Do you think that punk is sort of inherently political or do you think it's sort of transgressive?

[John Cameron Mitchell]

First, it's not always political. You know, people say it kind of sprang out of actually Detroit, originally with MC5, then an Iggy Pop, which was more almost. It was a bit political there. So New York's version of punk, which came later was more hipster, it was more art based. Patti Smith, Television, you know, the Ramones. When we first started the boredom of what to do, we just had to.

[Carl Swanson]

Write about what came natural.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

So punk came from all sources. Britain did its own version that has some political element, right?

[Carl Swanson]

Absolutely.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

God Save the Queen, the fascist regime. There were others like Crass, who created their own little anarchist collectives. So there was different kinds of punk, fashiony, political group. And the punkness was stepping outside the approved system.

[Carl Swanson]

Yes. And your definition of punk also is about helping. It's about community and helping people out. It's not about, you know, and that's like part of the idea of diy.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Some of what's called sometimes creative destruction. You know, burn that down. So green shoots can come up in a different way sometimes. I disagree with burning it all down, sure. But I love challenging, you know, I've always loved questioning in a way that's not look at me. And more like, we can make it better. It can be fun.

[Carl Swanson]

Do you worry that you have to sort of keep an eye on your own punkishness to get into yourself to model this?

[John Cameron Mitchell]

No.

[Carl Swanson]

Cause it's subjective.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

It's making, you know, it's not presenting.

[Carl Swanson]

But with this younger generation, I mean, having met these students on your tour and knowing their hesitation to embrace provocation, but. But also their eagerness to make change, what would you say embracing punk in 2025 should or could look like, well.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Obviously they are plugged in to the matrix, to the Internet, to their phones, and perhaps inextricably, as we know, doom scrolling overload of information can paralyze you and depress you as opposed to what you. It's hard to figure out what you. The minimum that you need to know to not just feel like you're dropping out. I just read a few headlines and then move forward with my projects, you know? But I am fascinated by culture and how it changes and by youth's reaction to it. Because youth implies suspicion of status quo and seeking to improve as well as seeking all experience. Sex, drugs, congress, art. And part of that youth thing is also defining yourself, right? And it's almost like their youth has been sucked out of them. Especially the guys have been watching porn for five years before they have sex. So the sex is disastrous and they end up not having it. They're not dating. I said, that's your homework, you know?

[Carl Swanson]

Yeah.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

So what is it? The metaphor of having sex is what I taught them. And sex, the metaphor is social intercourse. It's go out there when it's a little bit scary, give it a shot, See what that person's up to. If you're not a leader, seek out someone who is. Volunteer, help out, figure it out, make your art piece, make it fun. What's out there? To me, youth is punk inherently. You know, it's about questioning the status quo. It's about experiencing as much as you can. It's about trying out new modes of clothes and activity and political things too.

[Carl Swanson]

And making mistakes.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

And making mistakes without fear. Right? And there is a lot of fear among young people now of irl because it's uncontrollable. It might make them feel uncomfortable, which they have dubbed unsafe. Uncomfortable is not unsafe. Unsafe is when your body's in danger. The professors are like, you gotta feel safe physically. But the best class is you feel unsafe intellectually, right? You're being challenged. And that's scary for some people.

[Carl Swanson]

I mean, do you ever worry in terms of what you learn from these kids? I mean, there are times when you're going like, do you ever have that doubt? Like, wait, am I trying to tell people? It's something that made sense to me in my generation, but they grew up in a different context, and my solutions are not.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

I was nervous at first. I'm like, first of all, am I gonna get canceled? How much can I say, am I gonna upset them? Is the teachers gonna get in trouble? But very quickly, I think my first one was Tulane. And Then it was lsu, then it was ucla, the belly of the Hollywood beast. And I showed Shortbust there. You know, Phyllis Nagy, who's a screenwriter, said, john, go in there. No trigger warnings. Let's show them a little bit about where you come from in the 90s. So I came in, they didn't even know who I was necessarily. You know, Hedwig Shortbus wasn't on their radar. So I'm like crazy punk, queer grandpa saying and trying not to say things were better. It's more like, what is now? What can we do now?

[Carl Swanson]

So, John, do you think the left can be punk again? Do you have hope?

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Well, there's so many lefts now. And, you know, in my hardcore communists and even socialist friends say they're suspicious of all that, the political correctness. They're like, that's not left. That's just rearranging the deck chairs. And it's getting in the way of the actual work that needs to be done. The only thing that has ever made me feel better when I dejected by the situation is creativity generally with someone else. And creativity that is useful, not just a calling card for your career or a, you know, that's fitting into the system. So it's like stepping out of social media, getting into a place of making something happen in your neighborhood. That's why I live in New Orleans, because I don't feel it being as possible in New York. I think the small cities and the big towns are the future of creativity in America. And, you know, I'm working on this play about Claude Colquhoun, who was a very punk artist in her time in the 20s and 30s and 40s, and she used her actual art to fight Nazi occupation of the island of Jersey in the English Channel. And her way was like to remind these young German soldiers, reminding them, like, what the hell are you doing here? They would take pennies and with nail polish, they were older women at this point. In nail polish, they would punk grandmas. Yeah. They would write, victory never on one side of the coin, and then on the other side, war without end. So almost voicing their fears, these German soldiers, fears, when does this end? What's going on? Why would Hitler stop? You know, just saying, you're a human being. What are you doing here?

[Carl Swanson]

Thanks so much, John.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

What a pleasure. Thanks, Carl.

[Carl Swanson]

If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. The Opinions is produced by Derek Arthur Vishaka Darba, Christina Samulewski and Gillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin and Alison Bruzek. Engineering mixes and original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Sabaro and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Aman Sahota. The Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Christina Samulewski. The director of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Sam.