Did Wokeness Leave Us Worse Off?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Opinions – "Did Wokeness Leave Us Worse Off?"

Host: Nadia Spiegelman (New York Times Opinion)
Guests: Aminatou Sow (Writer & Culture Critic), Brock Collier (New York Magazine Writer)
Date: April 8, 2026
Duration (content): ~00:49–34:48

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Overview

This episode examines the current cultural and political climate around “wokeness,” language policing, and shifting attitudes toward political correctness. Host Nadia Spiegelman, joined by Aminatou Sow and Brock Collier, explores whether wokeness is “dead,” how language and activism have evolved since the Trump years, and what these changes signal for the future of progressive (and reactionary) politics—especially among the youth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shifting Language of Wokeness

• Game: Dead or Alive? (02:10–03:58)
  The guests play a word association game evaluating whether figures of “woke” language (e.g., “problematic,” “triggered,” “microaggression,” “safe space,” “Latinx,” “folx”) are alive, dying, or dead in the current discourse.

  • Notable Quote:

    • Nadia: "Pronouns are dropping out of email signatures. It just feels like we're being a little less careful with what we say and who we might offend." (01:12)

  • Consensus: Many “woke” terms are now seen as passé or even cringe, though some (like “Latinx”) remain contentious or actively disliked.

2. Defining Political Correctness vs. Wokeness (03:58–06:46)

• Discussion of how “woke” has supplanted “politically correct” as the operative term, though its meaning is deeply contested and varies by generation and context.

  • Aminatou: "If somebody says the word PC, I'm like, got it. You're a 1990 and before person... And if you say woke, I'm like, great, you're a new century person." (05:27)

  • Nadia: “If a white person says to you, 'I'm woke,' what do you think of that?”

  • Aminatou: "It has been ridiculous since day one for me… I just want to be so clear about that." (06:01)

3. The Trump and Biden Years: Virtue Signaling & Institutionalization (06:46–10:57)

• Virtue Signaling Spike (Trump era): White progressives undertook visible activism (pussy hats, anti-racism books, Black Squares) to distance themselves from Trumpian values.

• Biden era: Actions became institutional (HR policies, pronoun policies), fueling institutional fatigue and backlash from both sides.

  • Notable Quote:
    • Nadia: “Maybe now, because so much of the signaling has been institutionalized, there's a rebellion against that from both sides.” (07:33)

• Black Square moment: Remembered as both “serious” and “silly” in hindsight—indicating the performative nature of much "woke" activism.

  • Aminatou: "Great, now you've told me exactly who I need to unfollow on this feed." (08:45)

4. The Internet’s Role & Social Media Cycles (09:42–10:57)

• Much of wokeness, its backlash, and cyclical debates are fueled by online culture and social media performance.
  • Brock: “We still get stuck in these virtue signaling woke social media cycles... then the next time a big issue comes up, we do it all again. Like, it just feels like monotonous.” (08:10)

5. Personal & Generational Contexts (10:57–14:33)

• Brock: Grew up in rural Tennessee (Trump country); experienced culture shock at a liberal college during the 2016 election and early rise of pronoun culture.

• Aminatou: Raised between Nigeria and the US; came of age during “PC madness” and the Iraq war; skepticism toward enforced institutional gestures of progressivism.

  • Aminatou: “If you're just like a regular… person who is just trying to get through the workday, of course you're upset that they're making you do all this signaling that you're not interested in… like, who cares about this stuff?” (13:05)

6. Did Progressives Annoy People into Reaction? (Marc Maron Joke) (14:33–16:46)

• The backlash (“annoyed into fascism”) is real. Many on the right—especially youth—frame their revolt as opposition to language policing, sometimes sincerely, sometimes performatively.

  • Brock: “They wanted the freedom to say the R word or the F word…this was their main concern.” (14:57–15:32)
  • Aminatou: “I have such a hard time with somebody hanging all of their politics on ‘I want to be able to say the R word.’…Feels particularly lazy to me.” (16:46)

7. Transgression, Cruelty, and Decorum (17:26–20:13)

• Some see rebelling against “wokeness” as gleeful transgression.
• Aminatou: “Does it cost me anything to do something nice for someone else? And if it doesn't… who cares?” (17:26)
• Both point out the basic politeness versus the right’s concerted (and destructive) action: “While the left is wrapped up in these debates about decorum and politeness, the right's reaction is to actually dismantle things.” (20:13)

8. Campus Culture Shifts (21:02–22:08)

• Brock notes a “huge change” at a formerly liberal southern arts college: conservative/reactionary behavior rising, less engagement in progressive protests (e.g., pro-Palestine).

  • "All of a sudden these frat houses were hotbeds of the R word... dress changed on campus... culture... had gotten so, so much more [conservative]." (21:09)

9. Youth: Not Rightward, But Away from Parties (22:08–22:30)

• Youth aren’t strictly moving rightward; they’re rejecting traditional party alignment, making political mapping more complex.

10. Language: Euphemism Treadmill and Stigma (22:30–24:36)

• Steven Pinker’s “euphemism treadmill”—language keeps cycling as old words gain stigma.
  • Brock: "That's what happens every generation... It's so fluid and flexible." (23:01)
  • Aminatou: "We're not gonna make new words, so we are gonna recycle all the same words." (23:31)

11. Intent vs. Language; Performative DEI (24:36–27:34)

• Nadia and Aminatou debate the problems of language in editorial work and activism.
• Aminatou: "At this point, you're talking so much about… what's the list called? What's the thing?… and I was like, where’s the results?… If you're still not doing it… this thing doesn’t matter." (25:44–26:26)
• Correction, curiosity, and moving on are better than wallowing in language-based shame.

12. Backlash and Chilling Effects (27:34–29:26)

• Brock describes a strong “policing” effect within progressive circles—fear of saying the wrong thing, social ostracization for small transgressions.

  • "There's like, a slight fascistic thing about the way of what we're doing… can you say you didn't like this movie? Can you say that you like Lana Del Rey?… Get out of this circle." (27:35–28:15)

• Woke politics can feel more restrictive in Brooklyn social circles than among right-wing influencers.

  • Brock: “Having open debate amongst the young conservative influencers I know is much easier than doing it in Brooklyn.” (29:26)

13. Is Woke Over? (29:26–31:41)

• The panel agrees wokeness never really "dies"—it transforms in new movements, terms, and leadership.

  • Aminatou: "Woke is always coming back. It just comes back into new... clothing, whatever. And also new for a new generation." (29:39–30:28)

• Regional and subcultural variation: social movements are highly fragmented; contradictory trends coexist.

14. Politics and Cultural Bubbles (31:17–32:08)

• Formerly leftist signifiers now have cultural purchase on the right, and vice versa—indicative of political and cultural realignment and contradictions (e.g., marriage equality’s broad acceptance, right-wing “wellness” and “anti-vax” subcultures, etc.).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 04:52 | Brock Collier | “I have some anti woke sensibilities. And by saying that, I think… I’m often trying to… distance myself from the woke of five years ago, this kind of way too earnest, super PC kind of cringe resistance Y culture.” | | 08:45 | Aminatou Sow | “Now you’ve told me exactly who I need to unfollow on this feed.” (on Black Squares) | | 10:57 | Brock Collier | “Even people who respect people’s pronouns and… non binary identity, or whatever, I don’t think… putting it in their signature is helping anyone.” | | 13:05 | Aminatou Sow | “If you’re just like a regular… person… just trying to get through the workday, of course you’re upset that they’re making you do all this… signaling… at your, the place that you come to conduct capitalism to like pay your bills, like, who cares about this stuff?” | | 15:32 | Brock Collier | “They wanted the freedom to say the R word or the F word or… this was really their main concern. They wanted to… [call themselves] ‘normal people’.” | | 17:26 | Aminatou Sow | “Does it cost me anything to do something nice for someone else? And if it doesn’t… who cares?” | | 20:13 | Brock Collier | “While the left is wrapped up in these debates about decorum and politeness, the right’s reaction to this is to actually dismantle things.” | | 25:44 | Aminatou Sow | “At this point, you’re talking so much about… what’s the list called?… Where’s the results? If you’re still not doing it, this thing doesn’t matter.” | | 27:35 | Brock Collier | “There’s like, a slight fascistic thing about the way of what we’re doing… can you say you didn’t like this movie? Can you say that you like Lana Del Rey?… If you don’t rank [the NY elections] exactly that way, then get out of this circle.” | | 29:26 | Brock Collier | “Having open debate amongst the young conservative influencers I know is much easier than doing it in Brooklyn.” | | 29:39 | Aminatou Sow | “No, Woke is coming back. Woke is always coming back. It just comes back into new… clothing, whatever. And also new for a new generation.” |

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Final Segment: "Ban a Word" Game (32:08–33:48)

The trio playfully nominates words they’d like to ban from popular discourse, lampooning social media slang and “baby talk” around food, as well as straight people using "partner" instead of "husband" or "wife" for political signaling.

• Nadia: “Kados” for avocados is banned.
• Aminatou: “AOS” (mayo), “Julies” (dates), and partner as used by straight people.
• Brock: “Maxing” (as suffix, e.g., “looks maxing”) has already outlived its welcome.

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Conclusion

The episode ends on the recognition that battles over language, identity, and virtue signaling are perpetual, morphing with each generation. Wokeness isn't dead; it’s being recontested and redefined, even as different subgroups burn out on performance or rebel in new—and sometimes unexpected—ways.

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If you want to see the studio where this episode was recorded, check it out on YouTube at New York Times Opinion.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host/Producer]

This is the Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times Opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

I'm Nadia Spiegelman and I'm a culture editor for New York Times Opinion. Lately I've noticed there's this pushback against what we used to call woke up. For example, young people are using the R word again.

[Brock Collier]

That word retard comes flying out of these kids mouths.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

5 years ago people were being absolutely

[Nadia Spiegelman]

crucified for saying retard plot.

[Aminatou Sow]

What is the R word? Retard.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

And pronouns are dropping out of email signatures. It just feels like we're being a little less careful with what we say and who we might offend. This has been true on the right and now maybe it's also becoming true on the left. So where are we with language policing and is Woke dead? For the next few weeks, I will be hosting a series of episodes on how our culture and politics influence each other. I'll be searching for what questions matter and who the right people are to answer them. And for our first episode, to talk about the future of woke, I called on my friends, writer and culture critic Aminatou so and New York Magazine writer Brock Collier. Thank you so much for being here with me. To start, I wanted to play a game where I'm going to say a word and you guys are going to tell me if it is alive, dying or dead.

[Aminatou Sow]

Sounds great.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Okay. Problematic.

[Brock Collier]

Dead.

[Aminatou Sow]

H should die. Should die. But it's around. You know what I'm saying? It's like it's a round but it should die.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Triggered.

[Aminatou Sow]

That one's going to come back. It's going to come back, but it's dead.

[Brock Collier]

I still see quite a bit of that, especially on the Internet, which is really disturbing because it's like trigger warning. And then here's a video of like horrifically violent thing. Like the word does not work.

[Aminatou Sow]

That's why I love it. I'm just like, thank you for triggering me with the trigger. It's like, the reaction came 10 seconds before. So I love it.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Microaggression.

[Aminatou Sow]

Dead.

[Brock Collier]

Dead.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Okay. Save space.

[Aminatou Sow]

Dad.

[Brock Collier]

Dad.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Folks with an X.

[Brock Collier]

Dead.

[Aminatou Sow]

Never. Alive.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Never.

[Brock Collier]

I mean, that one was ridiculous. I mean, talk about a ridiculous. Like, that really makes me so mad. Like, it makes me. Because I know people who have, like, dutifully and earnestly used that and it's like, oh, my gosh.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

What about Latinx?

[Brock Collier]

I mean, I think that one's difficult because I think for a lot of Latin people or Latin queer people, it feels good and for some of them it actually doesn't and they prefer. And I think it can sometimes feel like a Western intervention onto them. I think that one's complicated. I think it should still be like, I think people use it.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

It can live if it wants to.

[Aminatou Sow]

Okay, this is the one that will get me canceled. I hate Latinx. And I talk about this a lot with, like, immigrant friends. It's very much like a diaspora war thing for me where I was like, it's like, interesting, interesting that you need a word to signal, like, where you are from. So I don't like it. I would say most of the people that I know don't like it either. And it's just like, imprecise to me. I'm just like, what are we, what are we talking about here?

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Okay, perfect. Since we're going to talk about language, I want to start by being on the same page about the language we're using. So when you hear the term politically correct, what comes to mind for you? What does that mean for you? And is it the same thing as woke? Are we talking about the same thing?

[Brock Collier]

I think that's what I was gonna say. When I hear politically correct, I think. I mean, I kind of hate the word woke, but I do think that woke has almost supplanted politically correct is the thing we're talking about when we're talking about this stuff. But yeah, I think I would say that.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Okay. Like, woke obviously has had a lot of different transitions as a word and who uses it and how and to mean what. And I would say that, like, I felt like it seemed like a positive thing to be woke five years ago, and now it doesn't feel that way anymore. Have you noticed this shift and where are you noticing it?

[Brock Collier]

Yeah, I mean, I think when I'm trying to describe my politics to people, I often say that I have some anti woke sensibilities. And by saying that, I think what I'm often trying to do is distance myself from the woke of five years ago, this kind of way too earnest, super PC kind of cringe resistance Y culture whose politics I mostly support, but the way that it's carried out is cringe to me. Yeah, I think cringe is the best word.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

What about you, Amina?

[Aminatou Sow]

Yeah, cringe is a really good word. Thank you to the young people for that one. I do think that language moves very fast, and I think that sometimes too, when I hear people use certain words, all it does is like, carbon date them for me. So, like, if somebody says the word PC, I'm like, got it. Like, you're 1990 and before person. We love that last century, you know? And if you say woke, I'm like, great, you're a new century person. But do the words mean the same things to us? And that's not always.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

And does it go further than time? Like, if a white person says to you, I'm woke, what do you think of that?

[Aminatou Sow]

I mean, I'm laughing. I am always. I am always, like, it has been ridiculous since day one. I just want to be so clear about that for me, because I don't know what they're saying. Like, I was like, are you saying that I should trust you or are you saying that you are considerate about people? Which is not what woke has meant in the black community, at least where it originated from. So I've never known what that means. It's always just like a. It's very much like the dad from get out. You know, I'm like, okay, got it. If Obama was running a third term, you'd vote for him. Cool. I don't know what that means, you know, and then also now you have people on the right also like using this word woke to mean something completely different than what I think think a mainstream Democrat is saying. So it is very confusing to me. Yeah.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

But I also feel like there is something, and it does have to do with age, but I feel like there's something generationally that is happening that is interesting in terms of how people think about sort of the superficial signaling of their politics that is changing. And it's kind of what I want to talk about. I just, I really, I want to know if you guys agree that there's like, something happened during Trump's first administration where people were like, this is not us. Like, whatever this man's values are, we need to prove that it's not the same as the values of white progressives. And so we're going to knit pussy hats and we're like, white people are going to do crazy things like, read books about anti racism and they're going to post black squares on Instagram and it's all going to be about.

[Aminatou Sow]

You're triggering so many bad memories right now.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

It's all going to be about signaling in a very, like, I think at the time a very like, well intentioned, like, passionate way that like, Trump's values were not the same as many Americans values. And like, how could we draw those distinctions? And then I think maybe during the Biden administration, a lot of the things that signaled that became part of the institutions, like h r fi ing pronouns and, and the ways in which universities were grappling with all of this. And I would say maybe now, because so much of the signaling has been institutionalized, there's a rebellion against that from both sides. Do you guys see that?

[Brock Collier]

I agree with that. But I do think like that Black Square moment, I think we're like, that still happens. We still get stuck in these virtue signaling woke social media cycles where it's like any issue that comes up, you know, there's this pressure to post, and then you post these infographics, and then all of a sudden there's a realization two months into whatever conflicts it is that those aren't doing anything. So then we start to get mad at people who are only posting the infographics and then it stops. And then the next time a big issue comes up, we do it all again. Like, it just feels like monotonous.

[Aminatou Sow]

No, I agree with that. Also, like, I remember the Black Square day so well because I didn't know what it was. And then one day I woke up and it was just, you know, and I was like, great, now you've told me exactly who I need to unfollow on this feed. You know, like, I'm like, I don't need. This is so silly. It's like you're posting a picture because you don't know how to say, like, I don't have racist values. You know, I'm like, what's that?

[Nadia Spiegelman]

For anyone who doesn't remember Black Square, can you remind us what black square is?

[Aminatou Sow]

Yeah, the black squares were. What was that? In protest? Was it George Floyd maybe?

[Brock Collier]

Yeah, it was the summer of 2020.

[Aminatou Sow]

Yes, the summer of 2020.

[Brock Collier]

Around the time of the Imagine video.

[Aminatou Sow]

Right, the summer of the troubles Imagine videos. So to be fair, it was Covid. Like, a lot of things were happening, right? You have George Floyd getting killed. You have a lot of other protests that are happening, like around trans issues. But I think that Black Square specifically was to Signal that you were not a racist person, which, what a ridiculous way to signal that, you know.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Yeah. Brock, how much do you think of this culture comes out of the Internet specifically?

[Brock Collier]

And it's great that I think it's almost like when we were trying to define woke earlier. I think when I'm thinking about what that means, everything I'm thinking about is happening on the Internet. You know, also I think to what you were just saying, like thinking about that black square moment, like, it seems silly in retrospect, but it felt very serious at the time to some. You know, I remember getting confronted by a coworker, like, I haven't seen you post yet. And you know, and that we had

[Aminatou Sow]

to post in general opposed the black square, that square.

[Brock Collier]

And then we had to have a conversation. And that was really difficult at the time. Like it felt, it was really intense. You know, I also think what you were saying about the Biden years, like, I think the reason it feels like we're having this kind of backlash to this culture right now is because of the institutionalization of it in our workplaces and on campuses. And like, I don't think even good liberal people feel like the anti racist training that they're doing in their office is helping anyone. Even people who respect people's pronouns and believe in non binary identity or whatever, I don't think that they think that putting it in their signature is helping anyone. And I think they're rolling their eyes and laughing about it in private.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Yes. I want to know a little bit more like the context of where you each come to this from. Brock, for you, I think Trump being elected was your first semester of college and you had grown up in Tennessee. So how did you think about these things before coming to college? And like, how did it change?

[Brock Collier]

I mean, I grew up in rural Tennessee and so was surrounded by Trump voters at the time who were pretty outwardly bigoted in, you know, a fairly rural Tennessee area. And arriving on campus in the heat of the 2016 election was, I mean, it was just crazy. Like for me personally, having finally gotten to a more liberal place, yes, I could start experimenting with the way I looked and non binary identity was really kind of bubbling up. And so I started using they, them pronouns. And then pronouns became the big conversation on campus. I mean, you couldn't walk into a classroom without the first day starting with a pronoun. Go around, as they say, you know, going around the circle and saying, hi, I'm Brock and I'm from Tennessee. And I use they, them pronouns like it really explod in that moment. And I was for the first time also as someone who dreamed of going to a liberal place, confronting other problems within the left, you know, suddenly finding myself amongst like minded people, but also discovering, oh, we don't think the same way about all these topics and there's going to be pushback on voting for Hillary Clinton or, you know, any number of things. Yeah.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

What were examples of that?

[Brock Collier]

Yeah, I mean, I think who you voted for in the primaries was such a litmus test at the time. The big debate at Northwestern at the time was a profess had invited someone who worked for ICE to come speak to a classroom. There was a huge protest over that because we were trying to figure out, you know, how open we wanted our dialogues. Was it okay to be in dialogue with someone like that?

[Nadia Spiegelman]

And then Amina, you, you grew up, I think you speak five languages, is that right? You grew up in a lot of different places and then you came to America for college. What was that experience like?

[Aminatou Sow]

I went to an American high school in Nigeria that was very conservative, like run by missionaries, but American curriculum. And then I went to. My first experience of being in America was I went to college at University of Texas at Austin. And Austin is, I would say a very liberal woke 1.0, woke 2.0 kind of place. But you're still in Texas, you know. So I graduated high school at the beginning of the Iraq war. So my campus time was very much like a war, war, war, war, war. I was a Middle Eastern studies major. So you know, that conversation's still going on. But watching George Bush just like kind of sweep through office and be this kind of like celebrated, like buffoon was a big system shock to me and I think was that's like my defining political heartbreak. But to the point about, you know, like language and stuff. I think that being kind of shaped in that like late 90s, like PC madness was, you know, I was like, I was very woke to that because I was like, this is not working. This is, it is so not working. If you're just like a regular, like not addicted to social media person who is just trying to get through the workday, of course you're upset that they're making you do all this like signaling that you're not interested in doing at your, the place that you come to conduct capitalism to like pay your bills, like, who cares about this stuff? And so it's like a very intense feeling.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Yeah, that's actually where I want to go next. The comedian Marc Maron made this Joke, I'm going to paraphrase it, but basically like did progressives annoy people into fascism? And it's possible, very possible. And Brock, you've done so much reporting on like the, the maga right youth movement and I'm curious what you're seeing there.

[Brock Collier]

Ye. I mean when I wrote a cover story for New York magazine last year where I went to the inauguration and hung out with kind of the new right, young, upwardly mobile, kind of good looking influencery conservatives and I mean language was policing was the thing that they brought up over and over and over again. You know, they wanted the freedom to say the R word or the F word or you know, this was their really their main concern. They wanted to.

[Aminatou Sow]

Did you find that to be sincere?

[Brock Collier]

I did. It's funny, I think I wrote in the piece, you know, some of them seemed very earnest about it and some of them, it was performative. You know, they were kind of doing it for the bit. But I think largely they really felt that. And something that came up over and over and over again when I was asking them to explain why they won, why they thought they won, they said we talk like normal people. They just kept calling themselves normal. And I mean the truth is they were not always talking like normal people. They were making really messed up and cruel jokes. But I do think that they were onto something. I think that's also the problem with so much of this woke language stuff. I think to the average American it's read as elite and academic. It's the stuff of campuses and intellectuals and that's a turn off.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Yeah, I think there's also like being transgressive. Feeling like you're being transgressive is gleeful, like it's a place of joy. And I think that like some of these people on the right are like this. We can rebel against this in a way that is powerful. Do you think that's part of what's going on or is it like pure just.

[Aminatou Sow]

Oh, I think that's, it's why I asked you whether you thought it was sincere or not. Because I have such a hard time with somebody hanging all of their politics on. Like I want to be able to say the R word. I'm like not even taxes. Like this is what you're like this is it. This is the pinnacle of what you care about. Feels like particularly lazy to me. And I do think that it's about being transgressive and I think that it's also about being cruel. You know, I think that it's something that I think about a lot. It's like, there's language that I am asked to use that I find goofy sometimes. And I always ask myself, I'm like, does it cost me anything to do something nice for someone else? And if it doesn't cost me anything, who cares? You know what I mean?

[Brock Collier]

Like, I don't think people just don't enjoy like, being, being told what to do.

[Aminatou Sow]

Well, but I guess, like, I'm not really. It's not, I don't think that we're always being told what to do, but it's. Some of this is just like basic politeness to me, you know, before we started this interview, your producer asked me, like, how I would like to be referred to as, like, I dd. I was like, that's great. That's like a professional courtesy. People mispronounce my name all the time. It's fine to do that. So if somebody is like, please call me by these pronouns and they're asking you that, like, earnestly, I was like, it doesn't cost me anything to do that for someone. And so when I find this kind of like, wanton cruelty being the, like the driving force, because again, things are like, everything exists in a context. I think that what I find, like, particularly grating about the, like, I want to be able to use the R word. I want to call women bitches and I want to call people the N word, you know, like whatever. And I'm like, why do you want to do that? Like, why is it so important to you? What is so important about being able to say that to someone who is telling you they don't want to hear that.

[Brock Collier]

At the same time, though, I do think there's a. I'm coming from a very. I mean, I'm 28 and I live in Brooklyn and I'm surrounded by like card carrying DSA members, but I was

[Aminatou Sow]

including one right here.

[Brock Collier]

I do think, yeah, most people are willing to be polite, but so much of this has gotten so fraught on the example of pronouns, for example, because people do not allow people to learn. People do not give them the grace to try and figure out how to get these things right. I mean, people are militant about this stuff and will bite your head off, bite their professor's head off over a misgendering situation. And that makes it really hard to move forward.

[Aminatou Sow]

I know, but that's interesting because that again, to me is. I'm like, I hear you and I agree with you. I've been in those meetings. I'm like, I'm a member of the co op, I'm a member of the. I go to the meetings where the people are militant and at the same time I'm just like, no one's killing anybody. You know, like it's. There is like a fragility like built in on both sides of this conversation where I'm like, wow, like, okay, somebody says call me this. You do. Like, we don't have to have like a 10 hour long fight over this stuff or you can just smile and move on. I think we can agree that that's like very silly. It's like somebody yelled at you one time in college, that doesn't have any power over you. And then now I have to live the consequences of, you know, like fascism is knocking at the door because of that is. That's a big leap.

[Brock Collier]

It is a big leap. But again, I think people just don't like being told what to do. And that's like a very.

[Aminatou Sow]

Yeah, but welcome to society. Like the government tells you what to do, you know, like, and also it's sometimes like, I guess I wanna backtrack. To me, it's not about being told what to do. It's like we have like basic rules of decorum.

[Brock Collier]

I guess my problem is also, while the left is wrapped up in these debates about decorum and politeness, the right's reaction to this is to actually dismantle things. Right? Like the things that we were doing in college you could not do on a campus. You know, women's studies have been, you know, destroyed. Queer studies, you know, Middle Eastern programs, like protesting. Like we're having these silly little debates about that and they're taking these big actions. That's sometimes my problem with the pronoun discourse too. Like the left, young queer people spent so much time enforcing all of this pronoun stuff and what energy was wasted, you know, why weren't we talking about health care or bathrooms or something? That was not as.

[Aminatou Sow]

Yeah, I don't disagree with that.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

And you were just speaking at a university a few weeks ago on these subjects. Do you feel like it's changed on campuses now?

[Brock Collier]

This was at a southern university, a very liberal university in the south, in artsy school, on a mountain. And yes, the change was huge. These students were telling me previously they felt like the school was 90% liberal kids and maybe 10% conservatives. And they were estimating it was more 60, 40. They said that Trump was elected. All of a sudden these frat houses were hotbeds of the R word and all these things that we're talking about. They said the dress changed on campus. All of a sudden all these girls and boys are in salmon colored button ups. The culture at this very liberal school had gotten so, so much more. Said they had about nine kids who participated in. It's a fairly small school, but only nine kids who participated in the pro Palestine protests.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Wow. And do you think that's because, like, youth movements are shifting, are just the signifiers shifting, or is like the youth shifting to the right?

[Brock Collier]

I think. I mean, the numbers. I think we have. The media talks a lot about the youth shifting to the right. I don't think that's what's happening. I think that the youth are just shifting away from both parties and don't really want to be aligned with either institutionally. And that makes their politics really funny and hard to map onto MAGA or woke.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Right. Interesting. Steven Pinker came up with this concept called the euphemism treadmill. That is basically the idea that we are always going to replace a word that has stigma attached to it with another word. Cause the word is just gonna get too loaded. The R word, for example, was the polite replacement for the word idiot. And we're just never going to be able to outrun the stigma because the word's always going to catch it. Do you guys think that there is a way off that treadmill, or is this just a thing that happens with language?

[Brock Collier]

I just think that's what happens every generation. I think queer stuff is really interesting about this. Like, obviously queer is the word that we're using right now to kind of stand in for all LGBTQ people. But it was not always that way, though. It was very popular in the 90s, and a lot of older gays and lesbians today are very uncomfortable with the word. And I just think it changes every. It will continue to change. And that's also why you can't quite police this stuff, because it's so fluid and flexible.

[Aminatou Sow]

Yeah, I agree with that. I think we're not gonna make new words, so we are gonna recycle all the same words. I was talking to somebody in their, like, 80s recently and I used the word horny. And he got so offended and he was like, your generation loves to use that word. And I was like, I have never had a reaction to this word before, and it was very instructive and very funny.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

But do you think that there' way off the treadmill? Like, do you think language is always just gonna.

[Aminatou Sow]

Yeah, I think that language is always gonna do this because we. Yeah, it's like the. The political mood shifts, people reclaim words. I think a lot. And I think particularly, like, we're in an era of people taking, you know, words that meant bad things or were replacement for something that was bad and really bringing those back to the core. And we're seeing real generational anxieties about that. And I don't know, like, as a, again, as a words person, I love all of it. I was like, I just love to see how, like, language is formed and how we do that. And so I think you could be scared by it or you could be really intrigued and see what we do with the language.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Yeah. Then sometimes I get confused. I mean, like, as a white woman. Let me make this about me for a second.

[Aminatou Sow]

As a white woman, is this your coming out? I love it.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

But like, as an editor also, I'm like, we're constantly making lists of people to do things, and I have to be like, we've only put white people on this list. We need some people who are. And then I don't know what to say because I've heard from a lot of people that person of color feels so corporate and everyone's a color and. But I'm like, so you have to add some people who are not white. But then that centers whiteness and like, it actually comes out of a genuine desire to be like, what is the word that means what I want it to mean and is the most respectable.

[Aminatou Sow]

But at the end of the day also it's like, just do the thing. You know what I mean? I hear the, like, in the summer of 2020, I will never forget the summer of the troubles. I was on a call and somebody said they used the word bipoc, which I had seen written, but I had never encountered before. And I'm a fairly online person, you know, and I had seen it, but I guess like my brain had registered that it meant something else. And I was like, wait, who's the bipoc on the call? And this woman was like, oh, you? And I was like, oh, I'm not bisexual, but thank you so much for

[Nadia Spiegelman]

thinking that about me.

[Aminatou Sow]

Like, I really thought I meant bisexual person of color. And I was like, that is so niche, you know, but like, I love that for you guys that you've done that. And she's like, no, no, no. It means like black indigenous person of color. And I was like, oh, me? I was like, I'm just black. I just identify like, I don't need this thing. But I remember it made me laugh so hard because I was like, this is not like, like, God bless whatever you guys are doing over there. And then when I was really thinking about that call, I was like, this is somebody that I've worked with for so many years who's always like, how do I get more black people to be involved? And then never does. I'm like, just do it. At this point, you're talking so much about, like, how can you do it? What's the list called? What's the thing? And I was like, where's the results, right? If you're still not doing it, like, it doesn't. This thing doesn't matter.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Totally. Intent matters so much more than language. But, like, but language is how we communicate. Like, language is important also. We are all three writers who care about it.

[Aminatou Sow]

And so, like, showing curiosity and asking questions about it is better than being definitive. So even in a place where it's like, somebody, if somebody says to me, like, what do you identify as? That is automatically, like, a easier. I think so much about, like, trans friends who have corrected my, like, identification of their, like, pronouns. And it was never done in an aggressive way. It was always like, thanks. Like, actually, like, this is the pronoun I like. And then you move on. And I think about that a lot in this debate where sometimes I'm like, yeah, you said someone's pronouns wrong and they have now told you how to say it. You don't have to, like, wallow in shame. You say, thank you for telling me that. And then we both. Yeah, you, like, keep it kind of pushing.

[Brock Collier]

If the conversation goes that way.

[Aminatou Sow]

No, if the conversation goes that way. But I think a lot of times the conversation's not going that way because it's not an invitation, like, from. And on both sides, like, there's so much, like, shame and self loathing. And it's like, well, no, let's just. Let's be correct and let's move on. Let's have a dynamic conversation about it.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Yeah, I guess.

[Brock Collier]

I like, I don't. I don't know, thinking about all this, I don't support the kind of loose and free say whatever you want cruelty of the young Trumpers, but I do think that once you start parsing how we say all these things, it has a chilling effect. And I don't know if the young people I know are also a good sample size to talk about this, but, I mean, it feels more fraught and police y than ever in my social circles. There's like, a slight fascistic thing about the way of what we're doing, like, can you say you didn't like this movie? Can you say that you like Lana Del Rey? Oh, but wait, she dated a cop a couple years ago. Like, can you like her? And she has trad wife aesthetics. Like, you know, sharing on Instagram, like, who exactly you should rank in the New York elections. And if you don't rank it exactly that way, then get out of this circle. When I wrote about the Cruel Kids for New York mag, at the end of the piece, I kind of copped to some of this. Cause I felt that I was becoming vaguely more anti woke. And I admitted to making bad jokes and stuff. And I mean, the way I felt socially ostracized among my friends for just admitting that I thought it would be relatable to people. You know, sometimes we do do these. Say these bad things in private, but I don't know, among my social circles, there was just a huge backlash to that. Like, I. In some corners of the world, I think woke is more alive than ever and it's getting more intense and that's how they're transgressing.

[Aminatou Sow]

It's definitely coming back.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

That's really interesting. Okay, so it's sort of like these two completely different spheres then that you navigate between both when you're reporting on the maga. Right. Youth movements. And when you're moving through Brooklyn, like, it's two completely different worlds. Is that right?

[Brock Collier]

Yes. And I would say pretty comfortably that having open debate amongst the young conservative influencers. I know, is much easier than doing it in Brooklyn.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

That's so interesting. Okay, so I was gonna move to like, is Woke over? Are we done being politically correct?

[Aminatou Sow]

No, Woke is coming back. Woke is always coming back. It just comes back into new. Like, it's like new clothing, whatever. And also new for a new generation. Yeah. And also new leaders of the woke. You know what I mean? I'm just like, something's definitely brewing. So I'm curious to see what it's going to look like, what it's going to feel like. But I. Yeah, I'm really ingesting this thing that you've said too, about the opinions that you're allowed to have online and how much it's like, shaping all of us. Like, I know that for me, it shapes my writing a lot and it drives me nuts when I'm like, oh, this is not from a place of honesty. This is from a place of, like, not wanting to get yelled at, you know, or whatever. So, like, that. That feels like genuinely, like palpable. But, yeah, I think Woka's on its way back. You know, like, we have a socialist mayor. Like, it's gonna look.

[Brock Collier]

I do think it's on its way back, though. I do. I also find that there's a certain corner of the Internet that is always insisting that it was, like, never dead and that it's alive. And I find that a bit.

[Aminatou Sow]

I mean, I feel like, funny.

[Brock Collier]

Like, look what's happening to this country right now. Like, yeah, these policies have lost and maybe it shouldn't come back in the same.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

And it's interesting because, I mean, we can only. I think any person that we could ask these questions to would have their own very specific answers that might be completely different. And that's a really interesting thing about this kind of conversation because you're like, this is what's happening in Brooklyn. But you're also describing this formerly liberal college campus where things look a lot different than they did a few years ago. And so we live in such, like, atomized little bubbles. And when we're talking about social movements, so many different, contradictory things can be happening at the same time.

[Aminatou Sow]

I know, but. So there's been such a big switch. It's like when I think about the fact that, like, it's like football is now a left thing and, like, family. I was like, yeah, it's like all the gays are married. Like, we're watching the super bowl, whatever, and on the right, they're doing, like, no vaccines, the weird milks, the. You know, I'm just like, what is, you know, like the weird, like, kinks with the Republican husbands. I was like, this is very. I mean, it's very weird to observe.

[Brock Collier]

I mean, look at who people are listening to. I wrote a profile of Candace Owens in December. And I mean, like, I. And sometimes I think that, like, politics are heading in, like, her or, like, Joe Rogan's direction. Like, she's such a, you know, pro Palestine, but super anti trans, but, like, against the war.

[Aminatou Sow]

I know she started as a Vogue intern. You know, like, it's very. It's completely.

[Brock Collier]

Her audience is young and it's a lot of women, and it's a lot of women who. I think we're heading in those directions.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Okay, so just to end, I want to play a game, and for this game, the three of us are going to be the language police and we are going to get to ban a word. And I'll go first. For me, I was at the supermarket and I heard a woman say to her boyfriend, honey, should we get some kados? And she Meant avocados. And that is van. No one can say kados for avocados.

[Aminatou Sow]

There's now Julie's for dates. You know, like, the food girls generally should be banned. The white women that make up the backbone of the food writing industry, I think they all need to go.

[Brock Collier]

The baby talk, the baby talk, the baby talk.

[Aminatou Sow]

The like, the aos and the like.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

What does AOS mean?

[Aminatou Sow]

Mayo.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Ew.

[Aminatou Sow]

And the shallots. And I was like, banned, Banned, banned, banned. What happens when bad writers have too many words to give people? No, thank you.

[Brock Collier]

It's just started happening. But I'm already done with the maxing. You know, looks maxing or whatever. You can add any word onto maxing and that's already completely annoying.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

No, it was too easy and it went too fast.

[Aminatou Sow]

It's too much. I want to ban straight people using partner when they mean husband or wife. I'm just like, I don't like this signaling of your politics. Yeah, I really hate it. Cause it's very sinister, actually.

[Brock Collier]

I was like, they're hiding.

[Aminatou Sow]

It's like they're doing some crazy. I'm like, you're literally participating in the most heteronormative institution a person could participate in. And you don't get to rebrand it. You just don't get to rebrand it. I was like, partner is. Partner is out.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

This always bugs me as a queer person and because anytime someone would say partner, I'd be like, oh, cool, they're gay. And then I'd be like, no, they're just ally.

[Aminatou Sow]

No. Now somebody says partner to me. I was like, this says straight person.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

Now it actually is useful. Cuz I'm like, oh, you're straight. Cool. You're a straight person. Who says partner? No gay people say that anymore. Okay, thank you both so much for being here with me today. Such a delight in this beautiful loft.

[Aminatou Sow]

Thank you for having us.

[Nadia Spiegelman]

These episodes will also be playing on our YouTube channel. If you want to see the beautiful loft where we recorded this, find us on YouTube at New York Times Opinion.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

If you like this show, follow it on YouTube, Spotify or Apple. The opinions is produced by Derek Arthur Bishaka Darba and Gillian Weinberger. It's edited by Gillian Weinberger, Jasmine Romero and Kari Pitkin. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Saburo, Efim Shapiro and Amin Sahota. The fact check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. The head of operations is Shannon Busta. Audience support by Christina Samuluski. The director of opinion shows is Annie Rose Strasser.

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