Podcast Summary: The Opinions – "Did Wokeness Leave Us Worse Off?"

Host: Nadia Spiegelman (New York Times Opinion)
Guests: Aminatou Sow (Writer & Culture Critic), Brock Collier (New York Magazine Writer)
Date: April 8, 2026
Duration (content): ~00:49–34:48

Overview

This episode examines the current cultural and political climate around “wokeness,” language policing, and shifting attitudes toward political correctness. Host Nadia Spiegelman, joined by Aminatou Sow and Brock Collier, explores whether wokeness is “dead,” how language and activism have evolved since the Trump years, and what these changes signal for the future of progressive (and reactionary) politics—especially among the youth.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shifting Language of Wokeness

• Game: Dead or Alive? (02:10–03:58)
  The guests play a word association game evaluating whether figures of “woke” language (e.g., “problematic,” “triggered,” “microaggression,” “safe space,” “Latinx,” “folx”) are alive, dying, or dead in the current discourse.

  • Notable Quote:

    • Nadia: "Pronouns are dropping out of email signatures. It just feels like we're being a little less careful with what we say and who we might offend." (01:12)

  • Consensus: Many “woke” terms are now seen as passé or even cringe, though some (like “Latinx”) remain contentious or actively disliked.

2. Defining Political Correctness vs. Wokeness (03:58–06:46)

• Discussion of how “woke” has supplanted “politically correct” as the operative term, though its meaning is deeply contested and varies by generation and context.

  • Aminatou: "If somebody says the word PC, I'm like, got it. You're a 1990 and before person... And if you say woke, I'm like, great, you're a new century person." (05:27)

  • Nadia: “If a white person says to you, 'I'm woke,' what do you think of that?”

  • Aminatou: "It has been ridiculous since day one for me… I just want to be so clear about that." (06:01)

3. The Trump and Biden Years: Virtue Signaling & Institutionalization (06:46–10:57)

• Virtue Signaling Spike (Trump era): White progressives undertook visible activism (pussy hats, anti-racism books, Black Squares) to distance themselves from Trumpian values.

• Biden era: Actions became institutional (HR policies, pronoun policies), fueling institutional fatigue and backlash from both sides.

  • Notable Quote:
    • Nadia: “Maybe now, because so much of the signaling has been institutionalized, there's a rebellion against that from both sides.” (07:33)

• Black Square moment: Remembered as both “serious” and “silly” in hindsight—indicating the performative nature of much "woke" activism.

  • Aminatou: "Great, now you've told me exactly who I need to unfollow on this feed." (08:45)

4. The Internet’s Role & Social Media Cycles (09:42–10:57)

• Much of wokeness, its backlash, and cyclical debates are fueled by online culture and social media performance.
  • Brock: “We still get stuck in these virtue signaling woke social media cycles... then the next time a big issue comes up, we do it all again. Like, it just feels like monotonous.” (08:10)

5. Personal & Generational Contexts (10:57–14:33)

• Brock: Grew up in rural Tennessee (Trump country); experienced culture shock at a liberal college during the 2016 election and early rise of pronoun culture.

• Aminatou: Raised between Nigeria and the US; came of age during “PC madness” and the Iraq war; skepticism toward enforced institutional gestures of progressivism.

  • Aminatou: “If you're just like a regular… person who is just trying to get through the workday, of course you're upset that they're making you do all this signaling that you're not interested in… like, who cares about this stuff?” (13:05)

6. Did Progressives Annoy People into Reaction? (Marc Maron Joke) (14:33–16:46)

• The backlash (“annoyed into fascism”) is real. Many on the right—especially youth—frame their revolt as opposition to language policing, sometimes sincerely, sometimes performatively.

  • Brock: “They wanted the freedom to say the R word or the F word…this was their main concern.” (14:57–15:32)
  • Aminatou: “I have such a hard time with somebody hanging all of their politics on ‘I want to be able to say the R word.’…Feels particularly lazy to me.” (16:46)

7. Transgression, Cruelty, and Decorum (17:26–20:13)

• Some see rebelling against “wokeness” as gleeful transgression.
• Aminatou: “Does it cost me anything to do something nice for someone else? And if it doesn't… who cares?” (17:26)
• Both point out the basic politeness versus the right’s concerted (and destructive) action: “While the left is wrapped up in these debates about decorum and politeness, the right's reaction is to actually dismantle things.” (20:13)

8. Campus Culture Shifts (21:02–22:08)

• Brock notes a “huge change” at a formerly liberal southern arts college: conservative/reactionary behavior rising, less engagement in progressive protests (e.g., pro-Palestine).

  • "All of a sudden these frat houses were hotbeds of the R word... dress changed on campus... culture... had gotten so, so much more [conservative]." (21:09)

9. Youth: Not Rightward, But Away from Parties (22:08–22:30)

• Youth aren’t strictly moving rightward; they’re rejecting traditional party alignment, making political mapping more complex.

10. Language: Euphemism Treadmill and Stigma (22:30–24:36)

• Steven Pinker’s “euphemism treadmill”—language keeps cycling as old words gain stigma.
  • Brock: "That's what happens every generation... It's so fluid and flexible." (23:01)
  • Aminatou: "We're not gonna make new words, so we are gonna recycle all the same words." (23:31)

11. Intent vs. Language; Performative DEI (24:36–27:34)

• Nadia and Aminatou debate the problems of language in editorial work and activism.
• Aminatou: "At this point, you're talking so much about… what's the list called? What's the thing?… and I was like, where’s the results?… If you're still not doing it… this thing doesn’t matter." (25:44–26:26)
• Correction, curiosity, and moving on are better than wallowing in language-based shame.

12. Backlash and Chilling Effects (27:34–29:26)

• Brock describes a strong “policing” effect within progressive circles—fear of saying the wrong thing, social ostracization for small transgressions.

  • "There's like, a slight fascistic thing about the way of what we're doing… can you say you didn't like this movie? Can you say that you like Lana Del Rey?… Get out of this circle." (27:35–28:15)

• Woke politics can feel more restrictive in Brooklyn social circles than among right-wing influencers.

  • Brock: “Having open debate amongst the young conservative influencers I know is much easier than doing it in Brooklyn.” (29:26)

13. Is Woke Over? (29:26–31:41)

• The panel agrees wokeness never really "dies"—it transforms in new movements, terms, and leadership.

  • Aminatou: "Woke is always coming back. It just comes back into new... clothing, whatever. And also new for a new generation." (29:39–30:28)

• Regional and subcultural variation: social movements are highly fragmented; contradictory trends coexist.

14. Politics and Cultural Bubbles (31:17–32:08)

• Formerly leftist signifiers now have cultural purchase on the right, and vice versa—indicative of political and cultural realignment and contradictions (e.g., marriage equality’s broad acceptance, right-wing “wellness” and “anti-vax” subcultures, etc.).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 04:52 | Brock Collier | “I have some anti woke sensibilities. And by saying that, I think… I’m often trying to… distance myself from the woke of five years ago, this kind of way too earnest, super PC kind of cringe resistance Y culture.” | | 08:45 | Aminatou Sow | “Now you’ve told me exactly who I need to unfollow on this feed.” (on Black Squares) | | 10:57 | Brock Collier | “Even people who respect people’s pronouns and… non binary identity, or whatever, I don’t think… putting it in their signature is helping anyone.” | | 13:05 | Aminatou Sow | “If you’re just like a regular… person… just trying to get through the workday, of course you’re upset that they’re making you do all this… signaling… at your, the place that you come to conduct capitalism to like pay your bills, like, who cares about this stuff?” | | 15:32 | Brock Collier | “They wanted the freedom to say the R word or the F word or… this was really their main concern. They wanted to… [call themselves] ‘normal people’.” | | 17:26 | Aminatou Sow | “Does it cost me anything to do something nice for someone else? And if it doesn’t… who cares?” | | 20:13 | Brock Collier | “While the left is wrapped up in these debates about decorum and politeness, the right’s reaction to this is to actually dismantle things.” | | 25:44 | Aminatou Sow | “At this point, you’re talking so much about… what’s the list called?… Where’s the results? If you’re still not doing it, this thing doesn’t matter.” | | 27:35 | Brock Collier | “There’s like, a slight fascistic thing about the way of what we’re doing… can you say you didn’t like this movie? Can you say that you like Lana Del Rey?… If you don’t rank [the NY elections] exactly that way, then get out of this circle.” | | 29:26 | Brock Collier | “Having open debate amongst the young conservative influencers I know is much easier than doing it in Brooklyn.” | | 29:39 | Aminatou Sow | “No, Woke is coming back. Woke is always coming back. It just comes back into new… clothing, whatever. And also new for a new generation.” |

Final Segment: "Ban a Word" Game (32:08–33:48)

The trio playfully nominates words they’d like to ban from popular discourse, lampooning social media slang and “baby talk” around food, as well as straight people using "partner" instead of "husband" or "wife" for political signaling.

• Nadia: “Kados” for avocados is banned.
• Aminatou: “AOS” (mayo), “Julies” (dates), and partner as used by straight people.
• Brock: “Maxing” (as suffix, e.g., “looks maxing”) has already outlived its welcome.

Conclusion

The episode ends on the recognition that battles over language, identity, and virtue signaling are perpetual, morphing with each generation. Wokeness isn't dead; it’s being recontested and redefined, even as different subgroups burn out on performance or rebel in new—and sometimes unexpected—ways.

If you want to see the studio where this episode was recorded, check it out on YouTube at New York Times Opinion.