Pallavi (2:46)

My name is Pallavi. I first came here in 2008 from Bombay in India and right now I'm a permanent resident.

Ashaka Darbha (2:58)

These people are not the faces of the harshest immigration crackdowns, but they're people who have felt the slow drip pressure of the Trump administration's policies, and it's changed the way that they feel about themselves, the US and their future. Could you tell me a little bit about how you saw America before you moved here? Like, what was your perception of it?

Ari (3:21)

I think growing up, I always saw America as kind of a dream destination. It was this ultimate Western ideal of democracy and freedom, and it's a country where you could be yourself. It felt different from my upbringing, and it's something that I always wanted.

Francisco (3:48)

The US Felt like a stepping stone into much bigger things, into a larger world, into a bigger stage.

Pallavi (3:58)

As an artist, especially to be able to actually conceive of a life in the arts. It seemed more possible because there are so many institutions that support that kind of education here or fund education. When I came to study here, India was also changing politically, and there was, like a transformation in the freedom of press. And so in contrast to that, it seemed like the US still had that and was offering that.

Ana (4:27)

It was mostly pop culture dreamland for me.

Francisco (4:31)

Seinfeld was like a big. A big show for me.

Ana (4:34)

I was insanely addicted to mtv. I would actually record on my VHS and learn all the choreographies from Britney Spears and Beyonce at the time with Destiny's Child. And I really realized that I was becoming somewhat fluent in English. I'll never forget that moment when I translated have you ever seen the rain? And I just felt so proud.

Ashaka Darbha (5:05)

Where do you feel that you've contributed the most to American society? And by that, I don't necessarily mean your job. It could be, but I also mean just, you know, your community, like, anything else you do on the side, family, friends, like, where do you feel that contribution has been the most?

Pallavi (5:24)

So financially, I have been contributing to this country well before I have been able. Had any capacity to receive anything from the country. So that would be, I would say, is my first contribution. I, you know, I make art here, I work here, I have designed things here. I think that as an artist and teacher, my. My presence here is positive. I mean, I'm not a malignant presence, that's for sure.

Ashaka Darbha (5:58)

So before Trump was elected this term, what were your feelings living in the United States? By that, I mean, like, did you think a lot about your immigration status? Like, how much brain space did it occupy before Trump was elected?

Ari (6:12)

I guess I've been thinking about it since day one, since I got here. I think for me, the anxiety was always about how am I going to stay here. You know, I went to College here as a student. And then I was like, okay, I need to find a job. I need to find not just a job, but a secure and stable job that's gonna help with my immigration. And also everything had to kind of fit into this path of securing my spot here.

Francisco (6:41)

If I compare Trump 1 versus Trump 2, in Trump 1, there were a lot of initial challenges to the immigration process and of course, a very angry discourse coming from the president of the country. But I don't think that compares to what we're seeing now, because you felt at least some security if you acquired a certain status in Trump 1. In Trump 2, that's out the window. You might have a paper saying you have a certain visa. I don't think it's too relevant if they want to change that.

Unknown (7:15)

Mahmoud Khalil is a permanent resident. He was involved in pro Palestinian demonstrations at Columbia University. He was arrested last month by federal agents following a deportation order from the Trump administration. Now, Secretary of State Marco Rubio alleged that Khalil can be deported because of his so called beliefs, statements or associations that would compromise U.S. foreign policy interests.

Unknown (7:37)

When you come to the United States as a visitor, which is what a visa is, you are here as a visitor, we can deny you that visa. And if you tell us when you apply for your visa, and by the way, I intend to come to your country as a student and rile up all kinds of anti Jewish, student, anti Semitic activities. If you actually end up doing that once you're in this country on such a visa, we will revoke it. This is not about free speech. This is about people that don't have a right to be in the United States to begin with.

Pallavi (8:02)

Mahmoud Khalil's arrest was the beginning of, you know, a change in how I felt about my freedom and ability here, especially because of his green card. And so it just made me feel that, yeah, nothing is. Nothing is off the table.

Ana (8:20)

I understood what freedom of speech really meant in the American sense, and I started to have a real appreciation for that. The idea that even if I did disagree with you deeply, I still believe in the right for you to speak it. So that has been a real struggle for me to understand how rapidly that all changed. I don't know. I just have a sense of fear all the time. The other day I went to a Brazilian supermarket and I was genuinely happy. Like, it honestly made me feel safe. Like I was in that bubble speaking Portuguese and suddenly six guys walked in. They didn't have any identification, but they started stopping people. I just kind of froze. And then when they approached me, they weren't violent, they weren't aggressive, and the tone was very polite, but the words were very threatening. And they were asking, you know, can you produce evidence of your immigration status? And thankfully, I had my green card with me, and I showed it to them, and they kind of like just dismissed me and move on to the next person. Not even a thank you, not even an explanation, just, you know, moving on. They did take a couple people with them that day. And if I didn't have my green card, I would have been taken. Right? And that was such a punch in my gut. That was such a huge reality to check.

Pallavi (10:00)

I mean, I've done something I'm so ashamed of, which is that I have deleted things I post. I mean, it is a display of, like, you know, what I believe in, what I think, what I'm working on. And to have to do that now, I think that that feels. It feels really odd.

Francisco (10:18)

In my group chats with other immigrants who come from very different places, there's a consensus among the group of maybe don't say anything. Don't even. Let's not even text about it, because we worry that will be read by someone in uscis, the immigration agency. And then this year, every time I've flown, I've, you know, I'm very nervous that something will happen the point of entry and raise some issues or my phone gets requested. I have friends who've deleted a lot of stuff on their phones, who have a burner phone for traveling.

Pallavi (10:52)

I've tried to think about why I might be unpleasant to somebody, or what about my arrival could be difficult for another person. I think in this country, the most captivating and compelling cities are the ones that are culturally in flux. I think that makes for a more vibrant and interesting life because you are faced with contrast and difference. Because I was thinking, what's the end game here? Like, do you actually not want immigrants to be here? And how can that be? Does this country actually not like immigrants? And I almost could not believe this question or answer it, because I can't think of why you wouldn't.

Ashaka Darbha (11:44)

Have you made any future decisions about your place here? And if you want to stay on, if you want to go somewhere else. How are you thinking about all of that?

Ana (11:53)

For the past decade, I've been moving wherever my job took me, and that meant sacrificing, having a family, being close to my family, having a community. All my friends are spread around the world because I've been moving so much for my job. That has been my priority. But even that is changing for me. I am honestly thinking about pivoting my career completely and try to become a diplomat for Brazil. My impetus to do that is because I want to help build that project of a country I believe in and help my fellow Brazilians have a life that is dignified and that they won't feel like they have to leave to have that social mobility, to have that economic stability. They won't have to leave and go through this to have a dignified life.

Pallavi (12:56)

I would never buy books until I got a green card because I was always afraid that I would have to leave. And so what would. Where would all these heavy things go? And so it's only when I got my job and I have this green card that I even bought something heavier than my own self. But then I also thought that, do I, in my, like, you know, one finite life, do I want to spend a significant part of this wondering if something is going to happen to me or wondering if I am welcome here? And it's one thing, if it's happening in your motherland, where you are born and that is what you've been given, it's another thing altogether to choose this. And I do not choose this for myself. And if that is the agenda is to make enough people scared that, oh, you should go, then, yes, I will go. I will go somewhere else where I don't have to feel so gross and I don't have to feel afraid, because I am lucky to have that choice.

Francisco (13:52)

About a year ago, my youngest brother wanted to also pursue grad school. He's more on the business side of things, so he was. He was very interested in an mba. He had this dream of, like, we'd be living in the same city together. And, of course, how beautiful for me as an older brother, to assist him in all the things I didn't have when I first moved, like helping him navigate the. The immigration system, like, all these things. But as time went by, I realized, well, Trump's becoming a possibility. So we had a conversation, and he told me he would also like to explore some options in Europe. Then finally, the election happened, and then I started seeing some of these big changes, and that pushed me to tell my brother, just don't come here. Like, there's no way this makes sense for you. It's a huge investment from your own money, from your own savings. There's no return on investment here. If you want to put it in very plainly economic terms, like this administration would, let's find somewhere else. So it was a bummer, but I think that was the best choice for him is to not consider the U.S.

Ashaka Darbha (15:05)

You know, at the start of this conversation, I asked you about how you saw America before you came here and why you came here. How do you see this country now?

Ari (15:15)

I think what I saw before was kind of one dimensional, and it's a simple ideal. It's an easy slogan, I guess, to think about democracy and freedom and all those, you know, typical American ideals. But now what I see is reality is that we're living in a world that is not always kind. And I think I'm still grappling with that. You know, like, I feel like American dream is something that is fed to immigrants to say that you must work hard, you can do it, like anyone can do it. But when you think about it, that has never been true. It has never been a reality for immigrants to just. There's a reason why it's called a dream, and that's why. Because it's an ideal and not a reality. And I think I'm starting to understand this reality of the world and that not everyone is going to be here. Not everyone's going to do well here.

Ana (16:13)

I wake up every day feeling like this is a dystopian reality. And it scares me how much Americans don't even want to acknowledge it. And that has been hard to come to terms with because it feels like even for me, as an immigrant with a green card, I have a real sense of guilt because while I'm here talking to you and expressing myself, there are people in jails right now in El Salvador and being deported without due process. Right. And then I think of Americans thinking of us, legal and illegal immigrants who are like, oh, it's not affecting me yet. Are you going to wait until it does affect you to do something like, where is that compassion you always showed to some extent at least? Right. Americans are. They love to portray themselves in pop culture, which I grew up with as the country that's going to step in and save democracy. Like, we have Wonder Woman, we have Captain America, we have all of that pop culture. They're going to be the beacon of hope. How can you be the beacon of hope if you're not standing up at your house?

Ashaka Darbha (17:48)

On that note, thank you so much for chatting with me.

Ana (17:51)

Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you for asking these questions.

Podcast Host (18:20)

If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Opinions is produced by Derek Arthur, Sofia Alvarez Boyd Vishaka Darba Christina Samulewski and Gillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin, Allison Bruzek and Annie Rose Strasser. Engineering, mixing and original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Saburo and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Amin Sahota. The Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Margelocker and Michelle Harris. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Christina Samulewski. The executive producer of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.