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The Opinions
How to Turn the Middle Against Trump
00:29:27
Senator Elissa Slotkin of Michigan and David Leonhardt on the fundamental question Democrats need to answer.
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- [00:00]
Helene Cooper
I'm Helene Cooper. I cover the US Military for the New York Times. So I'm sitting in my car in a parking lot outside the Pentagon. I had a cubicle with a desk inside the building for years, but the Trump administration has taken that away. People in power have always made it difficult for journalists. It hasn't stopped us in the past, it's not going to stop us now. I will keep working to get you the facts. And this work doesn't happen without subscribers to the New York Times.
- [00:33]
David Leonhart
This is the Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.
- [00:48]
I'm David Leonhart, the director of the New York Times editorial board. Today we're going to talk about what I think is the single most important trend in American politics, the class inversion. For a long time, the Democrats were the party of the working class and Republicans were the party of educated professionals. But that's just not true anymore. Last year, Kamala Harris won people with a four year college degree easily and Donald Trump won people without a four year college degree. This tradeoff is bad news for Democrats. Because of simple math, there are more Americans without a four year college degree than with one. Our editorial board recently published a piece arguing that the Democrats were in denial about their unpopularity with large parts of the American public. But one Democrat who is not in denial is Alyssa Slotkin, the new senator from Michigan. She first won election to Congress in 2018 when she won a House seat in a district that had voted for Donald Trump. And then last year, she won a hard fought Senate race in Michigan at the same time that Trump was winning that race in the presidential election. Senator Slotkin, thank you for being here.
- [02:02]
Alyssa Slotkin
Thanks for having me.
- [02:03]
David Leonhart
So I've heard you describe yourself as a student of history, and I want to ask you to look back over the past half century or so, which happens to be basically your lifetime and mine as well, and describe why you think Democrats have lost so many working class voters.
- [02:20]
Alyssa Slotkin
Well, you know, I would think it's for substance reasons and for style reasons. I think on substance, certainly in this last election. But in general, we have a problem in this country in that it's getting harder to get in and stay in the middle class. And if you're not speaking to that issue, you're just having half a conversation, you're not really addressing people's primary question, which is what am I going to do? What are my kids going to do? What are my grandkids? Going to do in this economy when the old way of life is changing, that's number one. That's the substance. And we owe that answer. And then on style, as Democrats have become more coastal, we have gotten further away from recognizing that people need a strong leadership figure. They want that what I call Alpha energy. They want that coach energy. And Democrats are really good at analyzing policies and giving you kind of the faculty lounge explanation of things to the point where we sometimes lose. That just like, hey, this is really hard. We are going to make us get us through it. Here's what we're going to do. And I want your confidence and your belief because it's going to take all of us to get through this moment, that Alpha energy is really missing. In addition to some of our substance issues that we need to work on.
- [03:45]
David Leonhart
You've been talking a lot about Alpha lately and you've mentioned coach before as well. So my colleagues and I actually prepared a little clip that we want to play for you and get your reaction to it. It's Dan Campbell, the coach of your favorite football team, the Detroit Lions, and it's him talking to his team after a tough loss.
- [04:04]
Dan Campbell
One thing, man, that just irritated me about last night in the critical moment. We control that game. We had control of this game, all right, we gave it away. Which was that, them or us? That was us, man. All the stuff that's been here that has kept us from winning. If we really want to go where we want to go, this last bit of losing has got to get out of here. The that crushes us. That cost you a game, cost you a Super Bowl.
- [04:36]
David Leonhart
So is that Alpha?
- [04:38]
Alyssa Slotkin
Yeah, I mean, I would say that's pretty alpha in my book. Yes. I think the way I describe it, and I think Coach Campbell is literally my model for this is gives you tough love, really takes that offensive energy to the other team. But then you know when your guys do something great, he'll hug em and love em up and appreciate them. So it's not just all bravado. It is really believing in your people and, and in being tough and strong about how you present things you believe in. And I think we've lost. That just straight way of talking about what you believe in and just making other people believe in it.
- [05:21]
David Leonhart
In the meantime, in that clip, he's specifically saying, look, we lost and it's our fault. And some of what I hear you saying is that's what the Democrats need to own. So can you be a little bit more specific when I mean, you mentioned the idea of two faculty lounge and not strong enough. But if you were going to ask Democrats to reflect on what they did wrong in 2024, what would be on your list?
- [05:44]
Alyssa Slotkin
Well, we have to provide an economic vision for the future. We kind of had this menu of things we cared about in the last election. And so no one knew what our priorities were. And a lot of Michigan voters at least said, well, I may not love Trump, but I know that he's only gonna focus on the cost of living and the economy. Now, I don't think that's true, but that's what they believe. So when they had to cast their vote, they voted for someone who they may have disliked at some level, but who they thought would focus on their priorities. And by having so many priorities, by being the party of the big tent to the point where there's no prioritization of what we really care about, people lost the plot.
- [06:27]
David Leonhart
The Biden administration certainly tried to focus on the economy and actually passed a lot of policies, many of which voted for in the House. And so was this a case of the Democrats fundamentally being unlucky because of the post pandemic inflation surge, or is there actually something about the party's economic policy and economic message that is just wrong and needs to change?
- [06:53]
Alyssa Slotkin
So we did pass a bunch of things, but we also spent a good year plus after the pandemic explaining to people that the economy was not as bad as they thought. You know, with bidenomics or whatever, just saying, like this Harvard economist says that GDP is the highest, blah, blah, blah. I was gonna punch someone if they quoted me one more Harvard economist when I could tell you with certainty that in my part of the world, people's wages were not keeping pace with inflation, period. And so they just tried to tell everyone the economy was better than it was. And it made people feel stupid. And it completely forgot the fact that while maybe on a piece of paper and a spreadsheet in Boston that was right in the aggregate for people who you were trying to talk to in the middle of the country, it was not accurate. So that was annoying and was our fault. But I think people know that we're in this weird moment in our economy. They want someone to explain that, A, it's not their fault that they can't have the same life, exact same life as their parents, that things have to change. And B, like, what does that path look like? And it is a hard question to answer, but we have to, if we're leaders and we care about bringing our states along with us.
- [08:18]
David Leonhart
So if one of the things you're laying out is the party needs to come up with a clear economic agenda, the other thing you're saying is they're all some things the party should talk about less or talk about differently. And you just referred to it, I think, as a menu of things. You've been pretty pointed in some other settings, you've said that the party sometimes comes off as weak and woke and it should stop. I think I know what you mean by weak. Can you tell me what you mean when you said the party is too woke?
- [08:43]
Alyssa Slotkin
Yeah. Just to correct the record, the weak and woke were the two words. When there was focus groups done in Michigan in February, the two most common words to describe the Democratic Party in Michigan were weak and woke. So just to be accurate, that wasn't me who said those two words. It was me repeating what the perception is of the party.
- [09:04]
David Leonhart
And it's fascinating that the word woke is now mainstream enough that that's what voters were giving back to pollsters.
- [09:09]
Alyssa Slotkin
Yeah. Oh, it's definitely mainstream, for sure. So we talked about weak. I think woke is a term most people, I think a lot of people I know think of it as a very positive term. But I think what it's shorthand for, for a lot of people is caring about social issues more than pocketbook issues. And what I saw happen in this last election is that people tried to say, oh, well, you know, the American people, especially of certain categories, care more about identity issues than they do about pocketbooks. Right. And I think that that is just false. It didn't matter whether you were black, white or Latino. Pocketbook issues were the number one issues. And it was not right to just look at a category of people and say, well, if I'm speaking to an African American audience, I'm gonna speak about just social justice issues. Or if I'm speaking to a Latino individual, I'm gonna speak about immigration issues. And Democrats lost voters in every category of non college educated voters. We lost white, black, Latino. We lost in all of those categories. And I think to me, there isn't a reason why we should look at one category of people and say, I'm going to talk about these issues and not those issues. I just don't think that that works. And people voted with their feet.
- [10:30]
David Leonhart
I think even a lot of progressive Democrats at this point would say, yeah, those issues aren't great for the party. We, we need to focus on them less. We need to reframe the discussion over to economics. And my reading of the evidence is that that probably isn't sufficient. And I actually think some of your campaigns point to the same lesson, which is it's not simply a matter of changing the subject or de. Emphasizing things. Voters also want to see that the politicians they vote for actually have views that are closer to their own on these issues. So it's policy changes, too. So it's things like being hawkish on national security, which you are. It's. It's saying, no, we're going to have cars run by gas for a long time. It's saying we want a tough border. It's saying local communities should be able to decide who plays on what youth sports teams, rather than saying that just kids and families can decide. Do you agree with me that it's not simply a matter of reframing it, but that it's also having positions that A, are closer to public opinion and B, seem authentic rather than something that politicians are doing to pander to voters?
- [11:34]
Alyssa Slotkin
Yeah, I think certainly after whatever two decades of watching reality television, Americans can sniff out inauthentic statements and talking points like a bloodhound. So just when you're trying to fake it, I think people know it. But look, my theory of the case is if you want social change, real, durable social change, people need to be economically secure in order to really be allies on social issues. Right. I see it in my own town. I live in a town. Holly, Michigan. I've never won my town. I've never won my precinct. I've never won my neighbors. It's a town where people are doing worse than their parents and their grandparents. Everybody's grandparents and parents used to work at the Flint Engine plant. Now those jobs aren't there. And so they're doing a bunch of other things, but they're struggling. They have two jobs. They don't have good insurance. And when people feel like they're not doing as well as their parents, they feel shame and anger. They try to blame other people for their problems. People who don't look like them or sound like them, they become less generous with their fellow man. And there's a whole theory of the case around the civil rights movement, that it was post World War II America, and we got to 51% of Americans who felt comfortable enough in their own economic status that they could say, you know, rights for everyone doesn't threaten my rights. And so I really feel like if you want to also help the issue of social change, you also have to be invested in people being economically secure, because when they're insecure, they are just less generous with Their fellow man.
- [13:17]
David Leonhart
To be specific, on one of these issues, you voted for the Lake and Riley act, which is a bill that makes it easier to deport immigrants who are in this country illegally and have been accused of certain crimes. Can you talk about your thoughts on that bill?
- [13:32]
Alyssa Slotkin
I mean, for me, I'm a national security person by training. I spent my entire career trying to prevent threats to the homeland. And if you're here illegally, you shouldn't be. Now, that's very different than the conversations we're having over people who have the legal right to be here, the legal status to be here, and then, of course, American citizens who are now being targeted. But if you're here illegally, you have committed a crime and you should go home. And I think we have to hear people that the way that the last administration was doing immigration just wasn't working for the average person. People, including large numbers of the Latino community, felt that it was unfair to let people in, you know, quote, unquote, skip in the line. And so I think we have to be honest with ourselves that while our immigration system is not functioning right and we owe an actual immigration plan for a nation of immigrants, that doesn't mean someone has the right to be here legally.
- [14:33]
David Leonhart
You know, it's interesting. You are, I think in many ways it's fair to describe you as a moderate Democrat. Would you accept that label if someone.
- [14:41]
Alyssa Slotkin
I mean, certainly a lot of my views are, quote, unquote, more moderate than others? I don't know that the split anymore, at least among Democrats. I don't think the split is progressive versus moderate anymore. I think that the division line now in the Democratic Party is do you believe Trump is an existential threat in his second term and needs to be fought in a very different way, or do you believe that Trump's second term, like Trump's first term, is bad but survivable if we just let things play out? And I'm in category one, and there is interesting different coalitions that have been built among elected Democrats, among people who, on a lot of issues I don't agree with, but who agree that what Trump is doing, particularly around democracy and our economy, is existential and needs to be approach differently.
- [15:37]
David Leonhart
So let's talk about President Trump for a minute. And I want to do so in a couple ways. The first thing is I want to get your response to some criticism that I know you've heard partly since you quoted the weak in woke line, including from my colleague Frank Bruni, who wrote that this wasn't really the time for Democrats to be sniping with each other and trying to deal with their internal tensions. It was the time to stand up to Trump. And I think I hear you saying, no, we need to do both at the same time. We need to stand up to him and deal with some of our internal divisions. Is that right?
- [16:09]
Alyssa Slotkin
I don't think we can stand up to Trump in a credible, thoughtful, strategic way if we don't a, own the mistakes we made in the last election that got us here. And two, acknowledge that our unity is our power and that if we can work together, progressives, moderates, whatever the heck you want to call people, that we'll be 10 times more effective in countering Trump than any kind of spotty approach that lots of groups take at the same time. So I reject Mr. Bruni's criticism. If you don't deal with the problems, then you can't mount a united offense. And if there's one thing that I have felt frustrated in my four short months in the Senate with, it's that I don't know that there's a strong feeling that the threat to democracy coming from Trump is so severe that it requires us to work in new and different and more strategic ways for us to have a plan. And so you can't get to that without dealing with some of our internal debates.
- [17:17]
David Leonhart
I think the question that we hear from readers most often is, what can I do right now? Other people who are worried about American democracy? And I understand that question, and I really liked that you gave a direct answer to that question when you were delivering the official Democratic Party response to his joint address to Congress. And we have another clip here that I want to play.
- [17:39]
Alyssa Slotkin
Hold your elected officials, including me, accountable. Watch how they're voting. Go to town halls and demand they take action. That's as American as apple pie. Organize. Pick just one issue you're passionate about and engage and doom scrolling doesn't count.
- [17:56]
David Leonhart
I love that you said doom scrolling doesn't count. We all know well meaning Democrats who spend hours watching MSNBC or, or they used to look at Twitter and now they look at blue sky. And I think what's interesting to me is you were saying that kind of political engagement doesn't matter at all. But then you said going to protests does matter. And I think many people who do that worry that it doesn't, in fact, matter. Why do you think it matters when people go out and attend even small local protests?
- [18:28]
Alyssa Slotkin
Yeah, well, I would say as an evolution from that speech, I would put a finer point on it. I think there's really two things people who really want to be active can do that is meaningful. And one is make sure we bring awareness and focus to the President's threat to democracy. Right. Rallies, protests, events when he tries to screw with election law or when he refuses to listen to the Supreme Court and their court orders. Like we should be putting a hot spotlight on that with protests, with education, op eds, visible and vocal. And then the second place we can focus is on bringing the middle voters into the fight. So if you think about what the most effective defense we mounted in the first Trump administration was, the one thing where it was like a signature goal of President Trump and we thwarted him and he could not do was his desire to repeal Obamacare or the aca. He campaigned on it. He was obsessed with it.
- [19:36]
Donald Trump
My first day in office, I'm going to ask Congress to put a bill on my desk getting rid of this disastrous law and replacing it with reforms that expand choice, freedom, affordability. You're going to have such great health care at a tiny fraction of the cost, and it's going to be so easy.
- [19:58]
Alyssa Slotkin
He forced the House of Representatives to vote on it early. They did repeal it. And you know, John McCain and his very famous upside down thumbs up. You know, why did John McCain feel confident that he could vote against his party and vote that down? Because the public and those middle uninterested voters who typically don't follow politics and policy, they turned against Trump on this issue. I am going to potentially lose my health insurance. I've had a pre existing condition. I've had breast cancer. What's going to happen happened to me.
- [20:31]
Dan Campbell
I have to have coverage in order.
- [20:32]
Alyssa Slotkin
To make sure that I don't die. And you want to take away this.
- [20:36]
Dan Campbell
Coverage and have nothing to replace it with?
- [20:46]
Alyssa Slotkin
How, how did that happen? Well, the base of the Democratic party used full throttle all of the vehicles they had open to them to educate the public that this man was trying to take away your health care, your right to being covered, even if you have a pre existing condition, your kid on your health care until 26. I can tell you three members of my family, including me, that would be dead, dead and homeless if it was not for aca.
- [21:23]
Helene Cooper
I am angry constituent.
- [21:27]
Alyssa Slotkin
You were for us. And suddenly people who had never been political before, they were saying, wait a minute, you know, I don't really like politics, but someone's gonna take away my health care? What are you talking about? That is what we need to do on the core things that Trump is now doing in his second term. We need the base to focus on educating people around what he's doing to this economy, to their Social Security, to their healthcare and their VA benefits. And that is just as important as any rally to protect democracy. Both are important. But if you want to talk about following a model of change, turning the middle against Trump is where it's at.
- [22:17]
David Leonhart
I think the Obamacare story, the saving Obamacare story, is so important and should give people some confidence that it matters in exactly the way you just said. And I can imagine that working again on Medicaid cuts, it's less clear to me how it works on a movement to protect democracy. And I say that with regret, but Americans are so angry about the direction of the country, they're so anti establishment. Do you think that protest can also work for the slightly more theoretical but so important vital notion of protecting democracy as opposed to protecting healthcare?
- [22:56]
Alyssa Slotkin
I do. I mean, I'm watching it happen even with ardent Trump supporters on, for instance, the issue of immigration and grabbing people off the street who have legal status to be here. You could have looked at that and said, based on their decision to vote for Trump, I bet that they're fine with any kind of treatment of any immigrant who is here on American soil. And I don't think that's true. I think that when people see those things, it sends a shiver down their spine and it does not comport with their perception of America and who we are. I don't think we can take our foot off the gas in highlighting those things. And by the way, sometimes we just need to talk about these things in ways that are more relatable. For instance, in Michigan, people are not interested in our economy going haywire. Right? Where everyone's watching these tariffs, everyone's very concerned what's gonna happen to our economy in Michigan, our economy works because there are rules and you don't have democracy, you're not gonna have an economy. And sometimes talking about democracy in different ways brings more people into the conversation than kind of just talking about it in a very important but kind of highfalutin way that we sometimes do.
- [24:09]
David Leonhart
Yep. Well, I wanna finish by asking you a couple questions about the future and specifically the future of the Democratic Party. And this may be a funny way to ask about the future, but I want to talk for a minute about Bernie Sanders, because I think for a long time, Bernie Sanders has been trying to fashion a politics that is more based on class and more based on the American dream and less based on some of the identity issues that the faculty lounge progressives, as you say, have been pushing. And yet I also know you don't agree with Bernie Sanders about everything. And he seems to be in the later stages of his political career. And I'm interested in your thoughts about what parts of Bernie and Bernieism the Democratic Party should retain and what parts it should look to reinvent.
- [25:03]
Alyssa Slotkin
I have no problem with, I think his central tenet that wealth has been absolutely concentrated and moved from the middle class of, let's say, the previous generation to the upper classes of American society. That's not an opinion. That's a factual statement that the middle class was much more powerful 30 years ago than it is today. And that's a problem. I see that, frankly, as a national security issue. I just, I don't think that the answer is socialism. And I think that even using those terms confuses people. I think most people really believe that the system of capitalism is a positive one. It just often is abused by some of the most wealthy and most powerful, but not to scrap the whole system. And I say this as someone who comes from a family business. We were in the hot dog business, right? Like my great grandfather comes here at 13, doesn't speak the language and is able to start his own business that he gives to his kids and his grandkids. So I don't think that the average American is looking for a fundamentally different system. They just want our system to work. So I don't quibble with his sort of central analysis, but I don't think the cure is socialism.
- [26:26]
David Leonhart
I agree with you that most Americans don't want socialism and they want to believe in the country that we have. I also can't help but notice that when you think about the most successful politicians of our modern era, they've basically all run as change agents. It's true of Bill Clinton, it's true of Barack Obama, it's obviously true of Donald Trump. And it seems to me that one of the things that the Democratic Party is sort of groping for is some way to develop a message that is authentic and anti establishment and also gives people some hope that the future can be better than the present. And I'm interested if you see any ways to sort of tie an anti establishment message to the hunger that Americans want for fixing these pretty deep problems that we have.
- [27:24]
Alyssa Slotkin
Well, I definitely think if anyone missed it in the last election, it's not just Trump voters that are looking for something different from their government. Do you know anyone who thinks that the education system is hitting it out of the park or that our healthcare system is really awesome? Or that they're getting enough out of their government that their government is something that's positive as opposed to a negative force in many people's lives. I think the overall message of the last election is people are dissatisfied with what they have. And I think you add technology to that and it's like, holy moly, we've got to become something else. And the question is, do we want something that's haphazard, the way Trump is now just chainsawing things, or do we want something smart? And I think it is absolutely both daunting and exciting to think that whoever's gonna lead, they have to answer that fundamental question of how do we change? What does change look like, and how do we make our way through it, and how do we do it in a way so that everyone gets a shot? That, to me, is the fundamental question that Democrats have to answer. And if not, people are just not going to be buying what we're selling. No way.
- [28:44]
David Leonhart
Senator Alyssa Slotkin, thank you so much for coming on.
- [28:47]
Alyssa Slotkin
Thank you.
- [29:07]
David Leonhart
If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. The Opinions is produced by Derek Arthur, Vishaka Darba, Christina Samulewski and Jillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin and Alison Bruzek. Engineering, mixing and original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Sabaro and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Aman Sahota. The Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Christina Samulewski. The director of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.