In the Epstein Saga, Trump Is His Own Worst Enemy

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Opinions – "In the Epstein Saga, Trump Is His Own Worst Enemy"

Host: Michelle Cottle (with Jamelle Bouie and David French)
Date: November 15, 2025
Produced by: The New York Times Opinion

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the latest developments in the Jeffrey Epstein saga, exploring the incremental revelations tying former President Donald Trump to Epstein’s abuse and how Trump’s handling of these scandals is damaging both his legacy and the MAGA movement. The panel examines the implications for Republican lawmakers, the political calculus around releasing the "Epstein Files," and how the party’s far-right factions are intensifying internal conflict. In the latter segment, the conversation shifts to the growing influence of extremist voices within the GOP, spotlighting the controversy over Tucker Carlson’s platforming of Nick Fuentes and the party’s struggle with its own radical elements.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Entanglement in the Epstein Scandal

• Context: Recent releases of emails and documents (“the Epstein 23,000”) suggest deeper involvement and knowledge by Donald Trump.
• Incremental Fallout: The new material doesn’t offer a "smoking gun" but further cements Trump’s awareness and potentially his participation.
  • Jamelle Bouie: "Everything that's ever emerged relating to this suggests quite strongly that Trump was like, very aware of what was going on and may have even participated." [01:55]
  • David French: "It's all incrementally terrible for Donald Trump and very critically, it's also incrementally terrible for the MAGA movement going forward." [04:38]
• The MAGA Image: The panel laments the myth that Trump was an opponent of sexual misconduct.
  • French: "Donald Trump is not, big surprise, some sort of avenging angel against sexual misconduct. No, it turns out that [...] he is a really depraved man." [04:16]

2. Why Scandal Does (or Doesn’t) Matter

• Enduring Teflon: Despite evidence, nothing seems to stick to Trump with the public, at least in ways that create real repercussions.
  • Cottle: "We've had the Access Hollywood tapes... multiple allegations by women of his bad behavior, but nothing seems to stick or at least stick in any way that actually has repercussions for him." [06:16]
  • French: "Trump is still largely untouchable, but any layer below Trump and people are willing to rip each other to shreds." [07:27]
• GOP Fracturing: The stress of defending Trump is creating internal Republican strife, especially below the top level.
• Scandal Management: The Trump team’s only response is attack and escalation; they lack the ability (or willingness) to recover or rethink their approach.
  • Bouie: "[Trump’s team] do not know how to engage in politics in any other way other than... being super aggressive, going on the attack and escalating." [09:27]
  • Bouie: "Taking Lauren Boebert into the Situation Room and trying to put the screws on her doesn't just make you look guilty. It makes it look like you publish a book titled If I Did It." [10:54]

3. Epstein Files Vote: Political Calculus and Republican Dilemmas

• Democratic Push for Transparency: With Rep. Adelita Grijalva sworn in, Democrats near a vote to force release of the Trump administration's Epstein-related records. Trump and his allies are working hard to stop Republican defectors.
• Republican Split: Some will peel off, but mass abandonment of Trump isn't expected—incremental shifts are more likely.
  • French: "People are gonna be starting to make these kinds of determinations at an increasing rate with every month that passes and we get closer and closer to the end of Trump's term." [13:20]
  • Bouie: "A lot of incremental steps all of a sudden looks like a stampede, right?" [15:35]

4. How Political Scandal Shapes Voter Response

• Is a Smoking Gun Needed?: The group discusses Brett Stephens’ argument that only "smoking gun" direct evidence would matter; both Bouie and French largely disagree.
  • Bouie: "It seems to me to be political malpractice is sort of like leave it all." [16:17]
  • French: "...the best thing to do is just to keep it going, have it be a thing that he's asked about constantly. That's the smart play." [17:48]
• Power of Images Over Words: Scandals like Epstein hit home because of their visceral imagery, not policy arguments about "norms."
  • Bouie: "Voters think in terms of images. That's what lands with people. Images." [21:42]
  • Cottle: "...something like this is like the sexual predator version of taking a wrecking ball to the East Wing, which we've all enjoyed." [21:14]

5. The Tucker Carlson–Nick Fuentes Controversy and MAGA’s Nazi Problem

• Tucker Carlson's Platform: Post-Fox, Carlson has amplified more conspiratorial, antisemitic content and recently hosted Nick Fuentes, a notorious neo-Nazi sympathizer.
  • French: "We're not talking about dog whistle anti-Semitism from this guy, it's bullhorn anti-Semitism. And he's built a big following." [24:39]
• GOP’s Radical Factions: The resulting backlash reveals a growing divide between "Nazi curious" and anti-Nazi Republicans.
  • French: "Rod Dreher wrote this, that about 30 to 40% of Republican male staffers on the Hill are what you would call groipers [...] you're not going to encounter much in the offline world, [...] but you will in young MAGA Republicans." [25:58]
  • Cottle: "What we've watched with the Trump movement from the very beginning [...] you turn around and next thing you know you're in Congress and trying to decide if you are gonna vote in a way that makes you look like you're covering up child sexual predation." [29:41]
  • Bouie: "Being put in a situation where you may have to vote to cover up child sexual abuse is not just a hazard, but I'd say... the inevitable result of this." [30:29]
• Longstanding Warning Signals: Panelists note they—and others—tried to call out this trend years ago; it was ignored for the sake of partisan gains.
  • French: "They were more upset that I was calling attention to that fact than they were that [neo-Nazis] had photoshopped pictures of my then 7 year old daughter into gas chambers with Donald Trump in an SS uniform pressing the button to kill her." [32:12]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump and Epstein:

  • Bouie: "Nothing has ever emerged to suggest that Trump didn't know, at the very least, what was going on. Right. Nothing." [01:55]
  • French: "All of this stuff is very incremental. None of it is dam bursting kind of stuff. But it's all incrementally terrible for Donald Trump." [04:38]

• On Republican Internal Conflict:

  • French: "Everything right now is causing Trump to shed support. What's more dramatic... is what's happening the layer below Trump. Maga below Trump is cracking apart." [07:27]

• On the Groiper Faction and Nazi Sympathizers:

  • French: "We're not talking about dog whistle anti Semitism from this guy. It's bullhorn anti Semitism." [24:39]
  • Bouie: "The groiperization of the Republican staffer class, you might say. The young men who are entering in Republican politics has been like an ongoing thing for a couple years." [27:07]

• On Scandal Management:

  • Bouie: "Taking Lauren Boebert into the Situation Room and trying to Put the screws on her doesn't just make you look guilty. It makes it look like you publish a book titled If I Did It." [10:54]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Trump’s connection to Epstein – opening context: [00:51]–[06:16]
• Scandal impact & incremental damage: [06:16]–[08:14]
• Political calculus around Epstein Files vote: [08:14]–[14:49]
• Does "smoking gun" matter? Political symbolism & images: [15:45]–[23:04]
• GOP’s far-right drift, Carlson-Fuentes, and intra-party struggle: [23:44]–[33:14]
• Personal recommendations (lighter segment): [33:36]–[37:50]

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Tone and Language

• Candid, sharp, and direct. The panel mixes journalistic rigor with blunt, sometimes sardonic wit ("Not so much as usual, I can't handle Jamel." – Cottle, [02:38]; "It's like they don't want people to know what's in there? I mean, what the hell." – Cottle, [08:14]).
• Seriousness and deep concern about the state of American politics and the consequences of ignoring warning signs.
• Occasional humor and warmth, especially in the closing recommendations segment.

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Closing Remarks

The hosts warn that the Epstein scandal is part of a larger trend of elite impunity and the normalization of radical, exploitative politics within the GOP. They argue that these worries should not be dismissed as mere distractions; rather, both the ongoing revelations and the party’s inability to reform themselves speak directly to voters' disillusionment with politics and may have long-lasting consequences in both parties. The second half’s focus on the rise of extremist voices acts as a companion story, illustrating deeper cultural and political rot.

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For listeners wanting an inside-edge analysis on why the Epstein revelations, Trump's conduct, and the radicalizing undercurrents within the GOP matter—and how these stories connect—this episode is essential listening.

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Note: Non-content segments (ads, extended credits, outro) have been omitted for clarity and relevance.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host/Announcer]

This is the Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times Opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.

[Michelle Cottle]

I'm Michelle Cottle. I cover national politics for Times Opinion. And I'm back this week with my usual partners in cr, the fabulous columnists Jamelle Bowie and David French. Guys, how you doing?

[David French]

Doing well, Michelle.

[Jamelle Bouie]

Doing okay.

[Michelle Cottle]

That's not very convincing, Jamelle. Why only okay? Do I want to know or are.

[Jamelle Bouie]

We gonna come back to that? I'm just tired of being in hotel rooms, as viewers may have noticed.

[Michelle Cottle]

You know, you're the hardest working man in opinion this week. I feel that we need to dig in once again to the Epstein 23,000 of them. I assume that both of you have read them all. Every single word.

[David French]

I've read as much as I can stomach. Let me put it that way, Michelle.

[Michelle Cottle]

I mean, I have to say I found the whole thing completely vomitus. And I just, I'm so over this whole thing. But, I mean, bottom line, it sure seems like President Trump knew a little bit more about Mr. Epstein's predation than he had previously acknowledged.

[Jamelle Bouie]

Just that, honestly, seems like a bit of an understatement. I mean, by his own account and by Epstein's own account, they were close friends for over a decade. And it seems like every single bit of circumstantial evidence we get access to. I'll put it this way, nothing has ever emerged to suggest that Trump didn't know, at the very least, what was going on. Right. Nothing. Everything that's ever emerged relating to this suggests quite strongly that Trump was like, very aware of what was going on and may have even participated. Right. That's where the evidence falls.

[Michelle Cottle]

Not so much as usual, I can't handle Jamel.

[Jamelle Bouie]

Not so much anything exonerative. And these emails are just another example of that.

[Michelle Cottle]

We're taping on Thursday morning. So, as always, things may change by the time you, you hear this, but give me your basic reaction. David.

[David French]

Yeah, I mean, I would say this just advances a already terrible story incrementally in the more terrible direction. So let's put this in a larger context. So you've had a situation where we've had reporting about the Donald Trump, what was it, birthday greeting, where he allegedly drew the outline of a naked woman around a, a poem or, or some sort of very, what was very obvious, like the content of the text there. It was very obvious that if that was from Trump, that Trump was signaling that he knew exactly all that was going on. And then you have the transfer of Ghislaine Maxwell to a far more favorable accommodations, reporting that she is now experiencing even favorable accommodations within the context of the more favorable accommodations, getting special favors even at this new prison. Then we get emails that indicate that Trump may have spent many hours alone with a victim. Now, Republicans pushed back on that and said that this victim, who's a known person in sort of the Epstein story, who passed away not long ago, that she had said that Trump had never done anything inappropriate. But once again, we had more evidence of connection to Epstein and Trump, more evidence that Trump seems to have known, Jamel was saying, at the very least, seems to have known a lot about what was going on. And so it turns out that Donald Trump is not, big surprise, some sort of avenging angel against sexual misconduct. No, it turns out that all of the available evidence indicates that Donald Trump, when it comes to sex, is really a really depraved man. He's a really depraved man.

[Michelle Cottle]

Shocked.

[David French]

He is not maga, your warrior against sexual misconduct and abuse. All of this stuff is very incremental. None of it is dam bursting kind of stuff. But it's all incrementally terrible for Donald Trump and very critically, it's also incrementally terrible for the MAGA movement going forward.

[Michelle Cottle]

Jamel, did you have deep thoughts on this?

[Jamelle Bouie]

I'm not sure I have any thoughts deeper than what David put forth. I guess I would just observe that in addition to the way the emails further implicate Trump or further suggest the degree of Trump's implication, to be precise about it, I was just struck going through some of them. How you hear what I've read and heard about Jeffrey Epstein is that he was this remarkably charming and intelligent guy. And then you read these emails and frankly, he sounds like an idiot. He writes in this half literate style. Nothing he says is particularly perceptive. And one thing I was struck by is the extent to which with these very wealthy, very powerful people, you always hear that they're so charming. I think it's that people want to be charmed by someone with wealth and with power and with access to things that they might want. I think that's true for Epstein. I think it's true for Trump. And one of the useful things about a glimpse into sort of maybe more intimate communications is it allows you to see how much these people aren't particularly remarkable, that the only thing that really distinguishes them is that they have money and power.

[Michelle Cottle]

So, David, as you noted, this is not the first piece of evidence we've seen of Trump's sexual degeneracy. I mean, we've had the Access Hollywood tapes going way back, the birthday card for Epstein, multiple allegations by women of his bad behavior, but nothing seems to stick or at least stick in any way that actually has repercussions for him. So do we think or what would it take for this time to be different? Is it just the accretion or would there have to be something, you know, earth shattering?

[David French]

I don't see that there is anything but incremental losses for Trump. I think if you look back at everything that you walked through from the Access Hollywood tapes to the E. Jean Carroll situation, to the Epstein revelation so far, to the Ghislaine Maxwell transfer pile that on top of January 6th, pile that on top of all of the other Trump stuff, and you really realize that, look, everyone who's sitting there saying what is the thing? There is no single thing. It's a number of things. But one thing that seems very clear to me right now is what we have is a one way ratchet it that is moving against Trump in the arena of public support, that everything right now is causing Trump to shed support. And then what's more dramatic, though, Michelle, is what's happening the layer below Trump. That's where you're actually seeing dramatic activity. You're seeing dramatic conflict within the Republican world that one layer below Trump. Trump is still largely untouchable, but any layer below Trump and people are willing to rip each other to shreds. And that is the dynamic that is taking place. Maga below Trump is cracking apart. And so that to me, is what's the actual story of what's happening right now.

[Michelle Cottle]

So this week, a new Democratic congresswoman, Adelita Grijalva, was finally sworn in after weeks of delay. And there'd been all this grumbling about how she's long vowed to provide the final necessary signature on a petition to force a House vote on whether to compel the Trump administration to release its Epstein Files, which of course, it was promising to get to the bottom of this for its people long ago from day one. But, you know, that's changed. So as Grijalva is finally being sworn in, there's this news that Trump is now like, putting the screws to Lauren Boebert, one of the few House Republicans who has been willing to do right thing in this regard and sign on with the transparency group. But the minute it looks like that they might have kind of the momentum to get this moving again and force some revelations, Trump jumps in and is squeezing people, which I don't know how you can look more guilty. I mean, it's like they're handling this as poorly as possible. Is there a logic to this other than they just don't want people to know what's in there? I mean, what the hell.

[Jamelle Bouie]

I think the logic to this such that it is, and this goes back to something David said earlier, is that Trump specifically, but the people around him do not know how to engage in politics in any other way other than sort of being super aggressive, going on the attack and escalating. They don't know how to do anything else. No other thing seems to occur to them. This is their only mode of operation. We are going to try to use as much force as we can to kind of beat you into submission. And when that doesn't work, they're kind of left adrift. And one thing I want to really strongly emphasize is that looking ahead to the next year, the only way things get better for the administration is if they can somehow recover. Right. Switch gears, change course, whatever you want to use as your metaphor here. And there's no evidence that they're capable of doing that. I'm sure they might want to on some level. Right? Like someone who might be addicted to eating ice cream might want to stop.

[Michelle Cottle]

But like, they don't talk about me like this.

[Jamelle Bouie]

But they don't have the capability to do anything different. And so one thing that I'm, one assumption I'm operating for is that this right now might be like the high watermark at this point of Trump's stature with the public. I don't see it going up in any meaningful sense. I think it's going to continue to go down because there's mismanagement of the federal government. Like, there's the material stuff and then there's the fact, as you point out, Michelle, that whenever any kind of scandal comes up, they seem to make themselves look red handed. Like taking Lauren Boebert into the Situation Room and trying to Put the screws on her doesn't just make you look guilty. It makes it look like you publish a book titled if I Did It Right. It puts you into late period OJ Territory. So I don't really understand and how things are ever gonna get better for them.

[David French]

I think that that's right. I mean, I will say, obviously there are events that can occur. Here's a wild card. One of the things that could actually end up helping Trump quite a bit is that the Supreme Court strikes down his tariffs. Cause right now, a Trump policy is a huge drag on the economy. So I think if the Supreme Court reverses the tariffs, you might actually see kind of a burst of economic activity and optimism that would be in spite of Trump, not because of Trump, but that he. Because presidents always benefit from a positive economic development. So I could see that there are events in the future that I could imagine helping Trump events. What I cannot see helping Trump is Trump. Who I cannot see helping Trump is maga.

[Michelle Cottle]

That's what I want to get at next, which is that if, as it looks like, there is a House vote on the Epstein files, this is gonna force Republican lawmakers to make a very uncomfortable choice between supporting their constituents who want transparency and not going against Donald Trump, who does not want these files released. What do they do, David, how do you expect them to navigate this line? And then Jamel, you after, you'll see.

[David French]

A few peel off a few. A few more. In addition, I think from Lauren Boebert and Massie and some of the others who have pushed forward Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[Michelle Cottle]

I got to throw that in every time. We've got to get it in there.

[David French]

And you're going to see a few more peel off because there's this kind of calculus going on right now. And that calculus is we know that there is going to be a point in which Donald Trump is a lame duck, and we're going to have a point where Donald Trump is an anchor on me in my career.

[Michelle Cottle]

Mimi, what about me?

[David French]

People are gonna be starting to make these kinds of determinations at an increasing rate with every month that passes and we get closer and closer to the end of Trump's term and also maybe even closer and closer to the midterms, because for all of the bluster you saw online about, oh, big deal, Democrats won in blue states, there actually is alarm about what happened on election day. And so I think you're gonna see, again, I hate to keep using this word. It's a broken record, incremental. It's just gonna be Incremental.

[Jamelle Bouie]

I think that's about right. Like, there's not gonna be a flood of Republicans fleeing Trump. What there will be are small calculations here and there, willingness to say, I don't think I'm gonna support this. I think with this bill to force the White House to release the Epstein files passes the House, I would expect there to be a good deal on Senate Republicans, and I would expect some of the Senate Republicans to look around the environment and say, better to just support this than not. The sense that Trump is a lame duck, I think is growing. I think the shutdown contributed to it quite a bit. Not simply because it went so long, but because he clearly wasn't showing any particular leadership during it. There was no indication that he was even capable of resolving it. The fact that there's no legislation, he didn't care.

[Michelle Cottle]

That surprised even me.

[Jamelle Bouie]

The fact that there's not really any legislation on the horizon. Is there a Trump bill for anything that anyone sees happening over the next year? No, there's no particular legislative program. And then he's becoming more unpopular. So I would suspect that, and I will say, not just more unpopular with the public at large, but among Republicans, he's not in the 80s anymore. On the 90% level. He's kind of hovering between high 70s, low 80s, which for him is not great. So I think as Republicans in Congress begin to pick up on what is actually happening in the public, they're gonna, like David says, take incremental steps away from him. But a lot of incremental steps all of a sudden looks like a stampede, right?

[Michelle Cottle]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jamelle Bouie]

And so which is to say, it's not gonna look like a stampede over a course of a month or two months, but we may look back and see quite clearly the movement.

[Michelle Cottle]

Okay, so I want to run by both of you something that our colleague Brett Stevens wrote this week about the Epstein Mass. He was saying that the only way any of this sticks politically is a smoking gun, red letter evidence that Trump had a sexual relationship with one of Epstein's victims. Otherwise, it doesn't do much but provide fodder for a few manic hours on msnbc. Democrats need to focus a lot less on Epstein and start worrying a lot more about winning over normal voters with better ideas about governance. Agree? Disagree. I have thoughts. Go ahead.

[Jamelle Bouie]

I mean, I disagree with that for two reasons. First is sort of like a low level one. The first one is when you just ask voters about this, do you care about this? What do you think about this? The answers are, yes, I care about This, I think it's very troubling, right? And when you have like two thirds of American voters consistently saying in surveys that this is something that troubles me, I want to know more about it. It seems to me to be political malpractice is sort of like leave it al. The other thing related to that is the way modern American scandals work. In fact, it's not one big revelation that hurts the most. It's small revelations over time that hurt the most. And so just thinking politically, being amateur political strategist, which I think we should strongly encourage people in our business from doing that. But if we're going to do it, being an amateur political strategist here, the best thing to do is just to keep it going, have it be a thing that he's asked about constantly. That's the smart play. But the other thing is, I think Brett's analysis misses the symbolic aspect of this stuff. The broad public. And we see this with all these sorts of political insurgencies happening in both parties are extremely distrustful of the establishment. They're extremely distrustful of normal politics, of institutional politics. And here we have in the Epstein scandal, kind of this example of corruption amongst the highest reaches of the American political and cultural and economic establishment. Major figures palling around with this guy, polit politicians palling around with this guy. And so if voters are telling you in their actions that what they want is some kind of visible representation of you breaking with the way things are normally done, then here is this scandal which gives you an opportunity to performatively break with the things that are normally done. And it's breaking with how things are normally done that is gonna open the pathway, I think, for voters listening to you on your other ideas, right. You show that you're just another politician and then they listen to what you have to say. And so I think with all respect to Brett, I think his analysis here kind of just like misses a couple steps and doesn't take seriously what the voters themselves are saying and signaling in their actions and behavior.

[David French]

So I think of it as short term, long term. So I think in the short term it is. I think Jamel's exactly correct that it would be in many ways, I think political malpractice for Democrats not to focus on this because voters do actually care about it. I. It's a target rich environment, let's just put it that way. The record is full of, full of cash Patel, Pam Bondi, JD Vance, others like we're gonna get to the bottom of Epstein. And then also there's this other thing that this is about the only scandal in the Trump era, whereas he's engaging in sort of that classic political dissembling that makes voters antenna go up. Like, is there something real here? Cause the other way that he's dealt with scandal in the past in his administration is just to do it right out in the public and brazen it out. I wrote about this. I mean, you know, he pardons a guy whose company helped pump up the value of Trump crypto, and he just does it. Or he just releases the memo about trying to extort a political investigation out of Zelensky. He just puts it all out there. And it really confuses voters because they're not used to politicians just dumping their scandal out on the public and just saying, here it is. But this is classic political scandal conduct, hiding the ball, working very hard to keep things concealed, and all of that broadcast to the public, there's something bad here. And so I think it'd be malpractice for the Democrats not to lean into that in the short term. But if all you do is win because the other side is bad, then what we're doing is we're trapping ourselves more and more into the cycle we've been through for the past 20 years, which is Republicans win, they govern in a way that the public doesn't like, so they turn to the opposing party because that's the only alternative. Then Democrats win, and then very quickly the voters turn to the opposing party. And then we've just been doing this every two to four to six years for 20 years now. So it is absolutely true that if a party wants to break this logjam for anything more than one election cycle or two election cycles, you do need long term, popular, stable governance, which involves a popular governing agenda that actually works in people's lives. So you have to walk and chew gum at the same time.

[Michelle Cottle]

Yeah, I mean, I think that the idea that you can just run against Trump indefinitely is obviously, you know, look at where we are. I mean, that's what the party tried in 2024 and we wound back up in this pickle. Although I do agree with the point, and I think it's hard to overstate how much voters respond to kind of that, that ugh level scandal. I mean, you can talk about Democratic norms and the approaching autocracy and good governance all you want to, and they'll be like, yes, yes, we believe in that. That's not what really kind of sets them on fire, though. Something like this is like the sexual predator version of taking A wrecking ball to the East Wing, which we've all enjoyed. We've all enjoyed the public response to that.

[Jamelle Bouie]

But no, I was gonna say, Michelle, that actually gets to a thought I just had, which is that I think one reason. One reason that people in our business should not be amateur political strategists is that we think in terms of words and messages, but voters think in terms of images. That's what lands with people. Images. Right. And so the East Wing is. You ask a wordsmith. Do you think people are gonna care about the East Wing thing? They'll say, I don't know so much, but people actually do care about it because it's a striking and dramatic image, and it represent something on a very visceral level about how they feel about what's happening in the world. In the same way, Epstein is primarily about images, right? Images of this guy with powerful people, images of this guy with teenage girls. Right. These images are quite powerful. And so I think the task for Democrats politically is to be able to conjure up compelling images, compelling images that. That tar their opponent in talking about democracy. Doesn't do that, but this might. And then images that demonstrate a commitment to building a better world. Right. For me, dismissing something as vivid as the Epstein scandal as a political tool.

[Michelle Cottle]

There'S a good word for.

[Jamelle Bouie]

Does feel like malpractice. Right.

[Michelle Cottle]

Well, the press conference the House did with victims of Epstein, I think caught a lot of people's attention for exactly that reason. You had actual FAI to put to some of this. But shifting to another set of images, since we're talking about the potential coming crackup of the Trump coalition, which I know David, is one of your. Is your favorite topics. You've also been following the Tucker Carlson Nick Fuentes saga, which shifts us from, you know, sexual predators to gripers. What is the story for those who are out of the loop and. And how does it fit in with, you know, the. The broader topic?

[David French]

Yeah. So let's talk about both the individuals. A lot of listeners will be familiar with Tucker Carlson. They may not be familiar with the turns Tucker Carlson has taken since he's left Fox News. And when he was at Fox, he was a conspiracy theorist. He has. He hasn't just doubled down on it. He's quintupled down on that. Since he's left Fox News, he has trafficked in all kinds of anti Semitic tropes. Over the last several years, he's dived into the 11 conspiracy theories. He has given softball interviews to Vladimir Putin. And through all of that, he is by some measures a very popular podcaster on the right. He then invited a guy named Nick Fuentes on. And a lot of listeners may not be familiar with this guy because he's not somebody who you're going to see on television, but he's a very popular Nazi sympathizing fan of Adolf Hitler. And when I say all of that, like when I say all of that thinking, wait, what? An actual fan of Adolf Hitler and is popular? Yes. I mean, this is a guy who will say things like team Hitler. I mean, he, he's a guy who has denied the Holocaust. I mean, we're not talking about dog whistle anti Semitism from this guy. It's bullhorn anti Semitism. And he's built a big following. He's got about half a million followers on this video platform called Rumble. And so Tucker Carlson has him on his podcast for what can only be described as in just an incredibly softball interview. And for whatever reason, this blew up on the right and it created some real anger, especially online, which then the Heritage foundation, arguably the most prominent sort of think tank in the MAGA universe, came forward and the president of the Heritage foundation condemned the, quote, venomous coalition critiquing Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes. Unbelievable stuff. And this led to a staff revolt. And Heritage, it has led to a giant fight on the right over the Tucker Carlson Nick Fuentes, where you're really clearly seeing the different factions emerge, the.

[Michelle Cottle]

Pro Nazis versus anti Nazis, or let's.

[David French]

Just say Nazi curious versus not. And Rod Dreher wrote this, that about 30 to 40% of Republican male staffers on the Hill are what you would call groipers. And what is a groiper? There are people who follow Nick Fuentes. You're not going to encounter much in the offline world. You're not going to encounter much in the real world, you know, where you're going to encounter it a lot in the ranks of young MAGA Republicans. And so all of this is spilling out now into the open, and it's causing an enormous fight within the right. And if you're going to sort of say it, so Tucker Carlson as the avatar for one side of it, and then Ben Shapiro on the very, very, very definite anti Nazi side of it. And so you're literally seeing people attacking, viciously attacking Ben Shapiro. Why? Because Ben Shapiro has mounted his horse and is righteously taking on Nazi sympathizers.

[Michelle Cottle]

He's taking that hard anti Nazi stance.

[David French]

He'S taking, and he's getting massive blowback about it, which is shocking. It is shocking when you think about it.

[Jamelle Bouie]

I don't find it that shocking because this has been, I mean, the groiperization of the Republican staffer class, you might say. The young men who are entering in Republican politics has been like an ongoing thing for a couple years. Back in 2017, after the Charlottesville Unite the Right incident, a writer, Alex Perrine, wrote a piece saying that is the future of the Republican Party, that what we saw there, those young men are the future of the Republican Party. And he was right. Right. This thing has been happening for almost a decade now. And with all respect to Ben Shapiro now I'd say it's almost a little too late to push back. So of course he's getting in the kind of ferocious pushback because it's almost like a fait accompli at this point. It's happened. You scroll the feeds of the Department of Homeland Security and what you see are explicit allus to Nazi propaganda. The Vice President of The United States, J.D. vance, pals around with people like Curtis Yarvin, who, although does not identify as a neo Nazi, has sort of like, you might say, like Nazi adjacent ideology about the domination of subhuman peoples. Right. Like this is just part of the firmament of a good deal of, you know, professional Republican politics right now. And I don't know what to do about it, but the rise of Fuentes as a player could be seen coming a mile away. And it's just, it's so clearly been percolating.

[David French]

Jamel's so right here, I mean, I was jumping up and down about this more than 10 years ago, because more than 10 years ago, the alt right emerged from the shadows, took direct attack, directly attacked my family in the most vicious and brutal ways you can possibly imagine. One of the reasons why I'm no longer a Republican and one of the reasons why I was very quickly became no longer welcome in a lot of conservative circles is because I was calling this stuff out. They were saying, shut up. The real enemy is Hillary Clinton. The real enemy is the Democrats. And so they were allowing into the tent anyone who would train their fire on the Democrats, and they were shoving away outside of the tent anyone who was saying, we've got a problem on the right. All of these things together started to pull some of the worst figures in American politics, including neo Nazis, right into this broader right wing tent.

[Michelle Cottle]

This all feels to me a little bit like what we've watched with the Trump movement from the very beginning. Whereas these people make these accommodations in part because they Think they can manipulate or control or make use use of the extreme versions of their or the extreme elements in their party, but not get swallowed up by them. But then you turn around and next thing you know you're in Congress and trying to decide if you are gonna vote in a way that makes you look like you're covering up child sexual predation. So like once you go down this road and start kind of accepting stuff that you could never have imagined embracing before on the assumption that you can control it, but like you're just asking for a whole lot of trouble.

[Jamelle Bouie]

Sorry. I would go even further and say that being put in a situation where you may have to vote to cover up child sexual abuse is not just a hazard, but I'd say like the inevitable result of this. Right? Like the kinds of politics we're describing are politics that are built on exploitation and domination and hierarchy and the destruction of other people. And historically speaking, that stuff has always been tied up in the worst kinds of abuse of other human beings. Not just in an organized state fashion sensor way, but also in a direct and quite personal way. Right. So my knowledge base is American history and the history of the 19th century and we have loads of evidence attesting to pervasive child sexual abuse in the slave holding South. It was arguably, that's what it was, right? That was the whole thing thing. And those people produce ideologies that on the surface were all about order and organic community and such, but when it came down to brass tacks were just elaborate justifications for dominating other people in the most disgusting and exploitative ways. And I see the same exact patterns with these modern day neo Nazis and Neo Nazi sympathizers and all of these people. It's the same thing thing. There's a direct line from disparaging the Declaration of Independence, which our Vice President has done, and engaging in apology for really awful behavior and really awful conduct and really awful ways of relating to people.

[David French]

Let me put it this way. People were more angry at me for calling attention to the fact that that neo Nazis had photoshopped pictures of my then 7 year old daughter into gas chambers with Donald Trump in an SS uniform pressing the button to kill her. They were more upset that I was calling attention to that fact than they were that that happened. Why? Because they didn't want me to undermine the sense of solidarity against Hillary Clinton. And if that is the dynamic, if that is the moral calculus here, then everything that has happened since was almost inevitable at this point. Because once you have said I'm going to accommodate neo Nazi expression for the greater good of taking down a mainstream Democrat, then you've lost your way. You have absolutely lost your way. And here we are. And. And here we are.

[Michelle Cottle]

I'm comfortable taking a hard anti Nazi, pro David French stance. I'm just gonna come right out there.

[David French]

And say thank you, Michelle, I appreciate that.

[Michelle Cottle]

I'm with you, dude. Okay, so let's turn this. After that kind of, you know, dark discussion, let's turn this to some recommendations. What do you got for me, guys? I don't want to hear anything about Nazis.

[Jamelle Bouie]

It's very smooth transition.

[David French]

I love that transition. That was pro right there, people. That was pro.

[Jamelle Bouie]

How about you go first, David?

[David French]

Okay, this is easy. This is the easiest recommendation week ever. One word. Pluribus.

[Jamelle Bouie]

Pluribus.

[David French]

It's by the creator, Vince Gilligan of Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad, starring Rhea Seehorn, who is Kim Wexler and Better Call Saul. And it's one of these shows that really kind of was wrapped up in a lot of secrecy. You know, the top line description didn't make it sound appealing that, you know, Seahorn is playing the last unhappy person in the world. It's like, what does that mean? So all I'm going to say is the. In the opening three minutes you discovered that there is a beam being emitted from about 600 light years away. And it has a message to it, obviously coming from an alien intelligence. And then just watch it. It's so phenomenal. It's just great. So I'm so excited. I'm just vaguely mad that it's coming out once per week and you can't binge it.

[Michelle Cottle]

I need to binge. I really resent the non bingeable things. Okay, what do you got for me, Jamil?

[Jamelle Bouie]

I have a movie so listeners viewers may know that I buy lots of physical media. I have a big Blu Ray collection. And recently a couple months ago, I bought a new release of the 1992 film Sneakers. Directed by Phil Alden Robinson and starring. This is kind of the most stacked cast you can imagine. Starring Sidney Poitier, Robert Redford, dan Aykroyd, Mary McDonald, River Phoenix and David Strathern. It's about two former kind of like hackers who all go separate ways and they get embroiled into a grand conspiracy. It's kind of an obscure movie, rarely makes it onto list of things to see from the 90s. But I think it's like if you could imagine the movie version of a big warm bowl of chicken soup. This is what this movie is. It's so fun and comforting and I highly recommend checking it out. It also looks incredible. It's like a very good looking movie.

[Michelle Cottle]

Well, it's got Robert Redford.

[Jamelle Bouie]

Yeah, it does have Robert Redford.

[Michelle Cottle]

By definition, it's good looking movie. That sounds perfect for my holiday viewing. I'm going into that.

[Jamelle Bouie]

It's a perfect Thanksgiving Day movie. Actually, it's a perfect Thanksgiving Day movie where you're. I'm usually the one doing the cooking. So like if I'm in the kitchen and there's something on the tv, you can put sneakers on the TV and it's like people will enjoy it.

[Michelle Cottle]

Ah, perfect. Okay, well, I'm going with a kind of nebulous recommendation which is that I am recommending people get out there and, and to organize a group outing that gets their friends out of their comfort zone. What brought this up is that on Friday I am rallying a group of about a half dozen women to go take a line dancing and two stepping class. I like to dance. It is hard to find line dancing in Washington D.C. but I have rallied the troops. But I like to do this all the fun. Over the years I've, you know, rally people to go skeet shooting, karaoke, of course, all kinds of things along, you know, salsa dancing, that sort of thing. And it's always something that your friends are like, really? But then they have a great time.

[David French]

So anytime I hear the word dancing, Michelle, or that anyone's going dancing, my inner 8th grade self comes out. Which means I in real life would stand on the edge of the room affirmatively, not dancing. And in virtual life of a conversation means I shuffle to the edge of that conversation.

[Jamelle Bouie]

I would go dancing. I think it's fun.

[Michelle Cottle]

Would you?

[Jamelle Bouie]

Yeah.

[Michelle Cottle]

Well, if you drive back up Friday, Tamel, you're welcome to join us. I'm very much looking forward to it. And if it goes well, this could just be what I do on Fridays. I'm just saying. All right, guys, I think that's it. If, if you do anything over the weekend out of your comfort zone, I expect you to report back to me. Okay?

[Jamelle Bouie]

All right, will do guys.

[Michelle Cottle]

Thanks so much. Let's do it again next week.

[David French]

Thanks, Michelle.

[Jamelle Bouie]

Oh, looking forward to it.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. The Opinions is produced by Derek Arthur Bishaka Darba Christina Samulewski and Jillian Walter Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin and Allison Bruzick. Engineering, mixing and original music by Isaac Jones. Sonia Herrero Pat McCusker, Carol Sabaro and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Amin Sahota. The Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary, Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Christina Samulusa. The director of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.