Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Opinions (The New York Times Opinion)
Episode: Is This MAGA Foreign Policy or Something Else Entirely?
Date: January 5, 2026
Host: Steve Stromberg
Guests: Masha Gessen, David French

Episode Overview

This episode explores the U.S. military strike against Venezuela, the capture of former president Nicolás Maduro and his wife, and the Trump administration's motivations and justifications for this bold and unilateral military action. The panel examines whether this approach fits into traditional "MAGA" foreign policy, breaks with past doctrine, or signals a broader, more dangerous turn in American global posture. They also analyze international, domestic, and historical implications, interweaving reflections on law, justice, authoritarianism, and America's role in shaping world order.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. First Reactions to the Venezuela Strike

• David French: Though pleased Maduro is gone, French is alarmed at the method, calling it a violation of law and precedent.
  • Quote: “The ends do not justify the means here. I'm very pleased to have Maduro gone from Venezuela. However, I'm not pleased in the way that it was done.” (01:52)
• Masha Gessen: Shocked and disturbed, likens American action to autocratic interventions, emphasizing the destruction of hope for international law.
  • Quote: “The means here are the means of really demolishing any semblance of hope for international law, for respect for norms, for a post World War II order that we hadn't still given up hope of creating.” (02:22)

2. Historical Comparison & Legal Justification

• Unprecedented Action: French outlines that, even by a history of US lawless actions in Latin America, this operation stands out for its brazen unilaterality and lack of congressional or international authorization. (03:28–07:06)
• Legal "Bootstrapping": Critiques Trump’s reliance on shaky past justifications—e.g., the 1989 Panama invasion and Bill Barr’s legal opinions—as creating dangerous shortcuts that threaten constitutional checks.
  • Quote: “That's a self reinforcing bootstrapping of war, making power into the executive at the expense of the Constitution.” (06:20)
• Police Action vs. War?: Dismisses the claim that this was a law enforcement (not military) action.
  • Quote: “It's just totally absurd. It doesn't pass the straight face test.” (07:14)

3. Putin’s Perspective & Erosion of the Postwar Order

• Autocratic Parallels: Gessen sees the operation aligning with Putin’s view that powerful men can divide the world—abandoning the legal/human rights-based post-WWII order for backroom deals and spheres of influence. (08:15–10:40)
  • Quote: “He views the world as a place that some very powerful men can carve up. They can make backroom deals and they can decide where their spheres of influence are.” (09:19)
• Shift to "Yalta" Thinking: Stromberg and panel link Trump’s foreign policy to older thinking—more like 1908 or 1823 than the UN Charter.
  • References to the newly-proclaimed “Don Row doctrine” to split the world into U.S., Russia, and China-led spheres. (10:40)

4. The World Order and Risks of Abandoning It

• Why the World Order Mattered: French argues the post-WWII system, despite flaws, has succeeded primarily at preventing another world war, and removing the U.S. from this system risks unraveling that achievement. (11:55–15:37)
  • Quote: “When we mess with the systems that have prevented the nightmare, we risk the nightmare.” (15:23)
• Parallels to Ukraine: Gessen draws similarities between the U.S. in Venezuela and Russia in Ukraine, noting that both justify invasions as “liberations,” with larger geopolitical consequences for Europe. (16:33)

5. MAGA, Personality Cults, and a New "America First"

• Breaking Campaign Promises: Trump’s action contradicts his stated anti-interventionist stance.
• “America First” Redefined: French posits MAGA is not rooted in isolationism, but in a willingness to use power aggressively in the U.S. “sphere of influence”—centered less on principle, more on Trump’s perceived victories.
  • Quote: “MAGA truly is a relatively new phenomenon that is much more centered around the personal success of Donald Trump than it is around a particular ideology.” (20:58)
• Cult of Personality: Gessen agrees, highlighting how autocrats manufacture greatness through wars because it’s easier than improving lives at home.
  • Quote: “There's no easier way to build greatness... Than to wage imperial wars.” (22:46)
• Migration and Domestic Use: Stephen Miller and others see foreign engagement as a tool to affect domestic issues, e.g. repatriating or deterring Venezuelan migrants. (24:02)
• Not Isolationist—Spheres of Influence: America First is about control, not withdrawal. French summarizes: “It is spheres of influence. That's the way that we need to think about the Trump mindset right now.” (24:35)

6. Beyond Spheres of Influence: Toward Colonization?

• More Than Influence: Gessen pushes back on "spheres of influence" as the right term, calling what’s happening U.S. “colonization”—direct control beyond mere influence, motivated largely by Trump’s obsession with TV images of power. (29:21)
  • Quote: “We're seeing colonization of an entire country that's beyond spheres of influence.” (29:31)
• The Importance of Television and Optics: Trump’s decisions are heavily shaped by how events will look on TV, reminiscent of the “Mother of All Bombs” episode and the Afghanistan withdrawal fiasco. (30:18)

7. Domestic Reception and Danger of Unchecked Action

• Short-Lived Attention: French predicts little sustained public concern unless U.S. lives are at stake or the action triggers a domestic crisis.
  • Quote: “The actual realistic answer about American public opinion is that nobody is going to be talking about this very much, literally in days, not weeks, in days, if nothing else happens.” (31:52)
• Historical Free Hand: US presidents have often had unchecked room to act in Latin America, enabling operations with little accountability and fomenting regional instability.
• Cycle of Military Escalation: Gessen and French discuss the authoritarian “playbook” in which a leader, facing adversity, initiates new military adventures for the sake of “greatness,” risking ever-wider war. (34:14–37:41)
  • Quote (Gessen): “The autocratic playbook is distract from bad wars with new, better wars, because the television effect ... is going to be short-lived.” (34:14)
  • Quote (French): “There is no such thing as having hacked war.... You have a person who is unleashing ... forces ... that are not in his control...” (36:57)

8. Outlook—What’s at Stake Next?

• Gessen: Warns the operation is a potentially fatal blow to the 80-year-old project of international justice—the very idea of a humanistic, law-based order is under direct assault. (38:16)
  • Quote: “This extraction of Maduro under the ... rhetorical cover of pursuing justice is possibly a fatal blow to this hope of creating international justice.” (39:54)
• French: Focuses on the administration’s core motivations. Rather than peace and prosperity, he believes Trump and MAGA are fixated on power, grandeur, and majesty, which raises risks for the international system. (40:11)
  • Quote: “We're talking about a movement very much animated by grandeur, by power, by majesty, by might. ... you can begin to see ... the risks that we're facing going forward.” (41:19)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (by timestamp)

• David French: “The ends do not justify the means here. I'm very pleased to have Maduro gone from Venezuela. However, I'm not pleased in the way that it was done.” (01:52)
• Masha Gessen: “We see somebody swooping in and removing Putin. But not like this...” (02:22)
• French: “That’s a self reinforcing bootstrapping of war, making power into the executive at the expense of the Constitution.” (06:20)
• French: “It's just totally absurd. It doesn't pass the straight face test.” (07:14)
• Gessen: “He views the world as a place that some very powerful men can carve up. … It's not human rights based. It's men sitting around in Yalta saying, you take that and we'll leave you alone and we'll take this.” (09:19)
• French: “When we mess with the systems that have prevented the nightmare, we risk the nightmare.” (15:23)
• Gessen: “What Putin envisioned was that he was going to bomb Kyiv, swoop in, remove Zelensky ... you could almost word for word use Trump's press conference after the Saturday operation...” (17:09)
• French: “MAGA truly is ... much more centered around the personal success of Donald Trump than it is around a particular ideology.” (20:58)
• Gessen: “There's no easier way to build greatness ... than to wage imperial wars.” (22:46)
• French: “It is spheres of influence. That's the way that we need to think about the Trump mindset right now.” (24:35)
• Gessen: “We're seeing colonization of an entire country that's beyond spheres of influence.” (29:31)
• French: “The actual realistic answer about American public opinion is that nobody is going to be talking about this very much, literally in days, not weeks, in days, if nothing else happens.” (31:52)
• Gessen: “The autocratic playbook is distract from bad wars with new, better wars...” (34:14)
• French: “There is no such thing as having hacked war.... You have a person who is unleashing ... forces ... that are not in his control...” (36:57)
• Gessen: “This extraction of Maduro ... is possibly a fatal blow to this hope of creating international justice.” (39:54)
• French: “We're talking about a movement very much animated by grandeur, by power, by majesty, by might.” (41:19)

Timeline of Major Segments

• [01:52] First reactions to the Venezuela operation
• [03:28–07:06] Historical and legal context; comparison to prior interventions
• [08:15] Autocratic worldview; Putin’s reaction and global implications
• [11:55] The architecture and value of the post-WWII order
• [16:33] Parallels between Ukraine and Venezuela, U.S. and Russian actions
• [19:55] MAGA ethos, Trump’s foreign policy promises, and base reaction
• [24:35] Shift from isolationism to aggressive spheres of influence
• [29:21] Beyond spheres of influence: arguments for “colonization”
• [31:52] American public opinion and the dangers of unchecked action
• [34:14–37:41] The escalation playbook: autocratic dynamics and future risks
• [38:16] Final thoughts: What to watch for in coming weeks

Conclusion

This episode offers a sobering exploration of how the Trump administration’s Venezuela strike represents a rupture with post-World War II norms, blurring the lines between law enforcement and war, and signaling a new, aggressive American posture justified by raw power and spectacle. The panel contends that this signals not just “MAGA foreign policy,” but a move toward pre-modern, personalized wielding of force, with unpredictable and potentially catastrophic consequences for global order and justice. As the public’s attention fades and Trump enjoys temporary impunity, the panel warns that historic, hard-earned systems of restraint are eroding—leaving both the U.S. and the world at urgent risk.