Podcast Title: The Opinions
Host/Author: The New York Times Opinion
Episode: Lydia Polgreen on What’s Missing in Our Conversation About Immigration
Release Date: April 24, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of The Opinions, Patrick Healey engages in a profound conversation with Lydia Polgreen, a seasoned columnist and foreign correspondent for The New York Times. The discussion centers around the evolving discourse on immigration in the United States, particularly in the context of President Donald Trump's administration. Polgreen delves into the complexities of immigration policy, societal perceptions, and the broader implications for America's global standing.

Contextualizing Current Immigration Policies

Polgreen opens by addressing two high-profile deportation cases: Kilmar Abrego Garcia's accidental deportation to El Salvador and Rumesa Ozturk, a student arrested from Tufts University. She uses these instances to highlight what she perceives as the Trump administration's "lawless" approach to immigration enforcement.

"The Trump administration seems to be trying to demonstrate a 'do not come here' message that they will exercise an extraordinary amount of discretion in power in deciding who is undesirable and seeking to remove them from this country without any sort of due process."
[02:30]

Polgreen emphasizes that such harsh policies may deter potential immigrants, altering America's longstanding reputation as a desirable destination for newcomers.

Shift in American Attitudes Toward Immigration

Healey reflects on the stark contrast between past American pride in welcoming immigrants and the current trend of favoring stringent immigration restrictions.

"For much of my lifetime, so many Americans took pride in the fact that people from El Salvador and Turkey, students from China or Western Eastern Europe wanted to come to America."
[04:09]

Polgreen analyzes this shift, attributing it to a pervasive sense of dissatisfaction and fear of losing control over national borders. She points out that despite declining support for Trump on other issues, immigration remains a strong pillar of his political base.

"When Americans talk about wanting to crack down on immigration, I think what they're really looking for is some sense of control and some sense that there is an orderly process."
[04:52]

Political Exploitation of Immigration Fears

The conversation delves into how the Republican Party, under Trump's leadership, has leveraged immigration as a political tool to maintain power by perpetuating a fear of an impending migrant flood.

"The Republican Party under Donald Trump has realized that for them, blocking any sort of immigration reform is actually really good politics, because it means you can use the specter of a huge flood of migrants coming into the country as a perpetual boogeyman."
[04:52]

Polgreen warns that this binary framing—between open borders and draconian deportations—oversimplifies the issue and impedes meaningful reform.

Public Perception and Policy Support

Healey discusses observations from a focus group of Trump supporters, highlighting the internal conflict between wanting control over immigration and the discomfort with extreme enforcement measures.

Polgreen responds by noting that while American public opinion broadly supports immigration control, specific Trump-era tactics lack widespread support. She underscores the disparity between general immigration sentiment and approval of actual policies.

"Americans are, as recent polling captures it, are horrified by the masked agents... the idea that people are being shipped off without due process. I don't think these are things that Americans by and large support."
[08:53]

Economic and Social Implications of Restrictive Policies

Polgreen articulates the unintended consequences of aggressive deportation strategies, such as labor shortages and economic downturns in sectors reliant on migrant workers.

"We already have a crisis in housing, construction and small business owners who are facing worker shortages."
[13:09]

She argues that the Trump administration's approach not only harms immigrants but also disrupts the very fabric of American communities and economies.

Migration Beyond U.S. Borders: A Global Perspective

Shifting focus to the international stage, Polgreen discusses global migration trends, emphasizing that many countries face declining birth rates and worker shortages that necessitate immigration.

"There is just an absolutely huge mismatch between the needs of societies that are, as you said, facing hugely declining birth rates and have like very, very real worker shortages."
[15:06]

She highlights the paradox wherein countries resistant to immigration simultaneously struggle with demographic and economic challenges that immigration could help alleviate.

Historical Context and Lessons Learned

Polgreen draws parallels to historical U.S. immigration policies, such as the Chinese Exclusion Act and the 1924 Immigration Act, illustrating the long-term negative impacts of restrictive immigration on national innovation and progress.

"One economist... wrote that the loss to American science during this period was the equivalent of eliminating an entire physics department at a major university each year between 1925 and 1955."
[18:00]

She underscores the loss of potential innovation and talent as a direct consequence of xenophobic policies.

America's Identity and Resistance to Change

The discussion touches on America's discomfort with societal changes brought about by migration, revealing a deeper existential questioning of national identity.

"Migration encapsulates that so powerfully because people, again, have to kind of look at themselves in a mirror and ask, who am I?"
[19:58]

Polgreen suggests that America's resistance to embracing immigrants stems from a fear of losing its foundational ideals and identity.

The Global Ripple Effect of Trump's Policies

In the final segments, Polgreen examines how Trump's immigration stance affects America's role on the global stage. She posits that Trump's policies foster resentment and erode America's reputation as a benevolent global leader.

"Donald Trump has actually given people permission around the world to give full voice to that anger and resentment at the United States that has always kind of bubbled below the surface."
[25:53]

She warns of a potential reorientation of global alliances and economic partnerships as America withdraws from its traditional leadership roles.

Conclusion: The Future of American Immigration and Global Relations

Polgreen concludes by contemplating the sustainability of Trump's immigration policies and their long-term repercussions. She expresses concern over America's increasing isolation and the diminishing attractiveness of the U.S. as a global hub for talent and innovation.

"I think we're headed for a period if things go on this continued trajectory of profound decline."
[28:56]

Healey and Polgreen wrap up by acknowledging the profound challenges ahead, emphasizing the need for a balanced and humane approach to immigration that aligns with both American values and global realities.

Notable Quotes

1. Lydia Polgreen [02:30]:
   "The Trump administration seems to be trying to demonstrate a 'do not come here' message that they will exercise an extraordinary amount of discretion in power in deciding who is undesirable and seeking to remove them from this country without any sort of due process."

2. Lydia Polgreen [04:52]:
   "The Republican Party under Donald Trump has realized that for them, blocking any sort of immigration reform is actually really good politics, because it means you can use the specter of a huge flood of migrants coming into the country as a perpetual boogeyman."

3. Lydia Polgreen [15:06]:
   "There is just an absolutely huge mismatch between the needs of societies that are, as you said, facing hugely declining birth rates and have like very, very real worker shortages."

4. Lydia Polgreen [25:53]:
   "Donald Trump has actually given people permission around the world to give full voice to that anger and resentment at the United States that has always kind of bubbled below the surface."

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Opinions offers a comprehensive and nuanced exploration of the current state of immigration discourse in the United States. Through Lydia Polgreen's insightful analysis, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the multifaceted challenges posed by restrictive immigration policies and the broader societal and global implications. The conversation underscores the urgent need for a balanced and humane immigration framework that honors America's legacy as a land of opportunity while addressing legitimate concerns about national control and economic stability.