Podcast Summary: The Opinions — M. Gessen and Michelle Goldberg on How to Resist
Host: New York Times Opinion
Date: December 9, 2025
Overview
This episode explores what it means to resist when your country takes an immoral direction, featuring Masha Gessen (reporting from Israel) and Michelle Goldberg (United States). The conversation zeroes in on how ordinary people — not professional activists — weigh the costs and methods of resistance, and how individuals decide whether to stay, fight, or leave in challenging political times.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Sources of Courage for Ordinary Resisters
- Psychic Cost vs. Cost of Acting:
- Masha Gessen argues that some people find it more psychologically costly to compromise their values than to engage in resistance, even when scary or risky.
- Quote: "There are situations and there are people who find that the psychic cost of moral compromise is greater than the cost of acting..." (01:40)
- Masha Gessen argues that some people find it more psychologically costly to compromise their values than to engage in resistance, even when scary or risky.
- Case Study: Jonathan Deckel (Israel)
- Deckel, once committed to raising his children outside the military, suddenly reported to reserve duty on October 7. Struggling with the contradiction, he eventually moved to New York to avoid being called back.
- Quote: "I am at peace. I am not at peace." (03:57)
- His honest "messiness" illustrates the complicated realities of resistance.
- Deckel, once committed to raising his children outside the military, suddenly reported to reserve duty on October 7. Struggling with the contradiction, he eventually moved to New York to avoid being called back.
2. Local, Personal Resistance vs. National Movements
- Small-Scale Actions Taking Center Stage:
- Both guests find most acts of resistance now are local, personal, and often separated from national organizations.
- Goldberg highlights Elizabeth Castillo, who single-handedly monitored ICE in LA to warn neighbors—motivated not by ideology, but outrage.
- Quote: "She was just furious that ICE was coming into her neighborhood...And I don't think it occurred to her not to do what she was doing." (06:09–07:19)
- Shift from Symbolic Protest to Direct Action:
- Goldberg identifies a shift from mass protests toward direct, on-the-ground activities, suggesting that these are both more common and more effective in the current climate.
- "We're seeing...a growing shift from symbolic protest to direct action." (08:08)
- Goldberg identifies a shift from mass protests toward direct, on-the-ground activities, suggesting that these are both more common and more effective in the current climate.
3. Limitations—and Value—of Direct Action
- Is Small-Scale Resistance Effective Enough?
- Gessen describes such efforts as essential, but insufficient for structural change:
- Quote: "...that's how you resist autocracy on behalf of your neighbors. But it is not how you overthrow autocracy." (08:46)
- Gessen describes such efforts as essential, but insufficient for structural change:
- Protest Marches’ Role
- Though sometimes performative, public demonstrations can create a "zeitgeist" and send a message of collective opposition, which counterbalances feelings of isolation and can shape elite behavior.
- Kaminer notes: “Protests...helped to break the narrative that this administration was a steamroller...” (11:23–13:00)
- They can provide entry points for deeper engagement (14:11).
4. Isolation & Community in Resistance
- Personal and Social Risks
- Taking action includes risk, sometimes alienating individuals from family and community—particularly in Israel, per Gessen.
- Yet activism often brings new, nurturing communities; its sustainability depends on whether it replenishes more than it depletes.
- Quote: "Nobody can act alone. Activism has to be more nurturing than it is costly." (16:21)
- Social Worlds Reconfigured
- Both Gessen and Goldberg found that activism reshaped social lives, making activists feel less alone. Goldberg notes this parallels some of MAGA’s appeal (17:41–18:39).
5. Deciding When to Leave: The Emigrant’s Dilemma
- Clear vs. Ambiguous Thresholds
- Gessen recounts the necessity of fleeing Russia when it was clear the state would target their family. For others (e.g., in Israel), the moment is rarely so clear-cut.
- Quote: "There's no science to it...There are no right answers." (22:27–23:55)
- Gessen recounts the necessity of fleeing Russia when it was clear the state would target their family. For others (e.g., in Israel), the moment is rarely so clear-cut.
- Moral and Practical Calculations
- Deciding to leave involves weighing personal safety, family, and the moral cost of staying.
- American Perspective
- Goldberg feels far from a breaking point in the U.S., acknowledging the rapidly shifting landscape but citing ongoing resistance and a lack of existential threat for most dissenters (24:00–24:55).
6. The Journalist’s Role: Advocacy vs. Reporting
- Limits of Engagement
- As opinion journalists, both recognize they cannot participate directly—this occasionally frustrates their audiences who want more practical direction.
- Gessen: "There's nothing compatible between being a writer and being an activist. And I think that's true. I happen to be much better at one than at the other..." (28:18)
- As opinion journalists, both recognize they cannot participate directly—this occasionally frustrates their audiences who want more practical direction.
- Value of Analysis
- They see their contribution as helping people think through predicaments, not prescribing action.
7. Future of Resistance: Coordination, Leadership, and Spontaneity
- Leadership Vacuum?
- Gessen observes that new protests often lack organizational underpinning: they can be ephemeral and shallow, fostered more by social media than traditional organizing (29:38–30:32).
- Collective Action Discount:
- The need to discern which protests are a weather vane and which signal lasting commitment.
- Welcoming Disillusioned Voters
- Goldberg hopes recent events will catalyze broader opposition coalitions (31:50–32:08).
Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)
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On Moral Compromise:
- Gessen: “I am at peace. I am not at peace.” (03:57)
-
On Direct Action vs. Protest:
- Gessen: "That's how you resist autocracy on behalf of your neighbors. But it is not how you overthrow autocracy." (08:46)
- Kaminer on marches: “I think those marches were extremely consequential...there's no reason to draw a binary between direct action and protests.” (11:23)
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On Community in Activism:
- Gessen: "Activism has to be more nurturing than it is costly. That’s the only way that it is sustainable." (16:21)
-
On Leaving as Resistance:
- Gessen: "There's no science to it. There's no way to know whether it's the right time..." (22:27)
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On the Journalist’s Role:
- Gessen: "There's nothing compatible between being a writer and being an activist...I make a significant contribution by doing what I do best." (28:18)
Important Segment Timestamps
- Resisting in Israel: Jonathan Deckel's story: 02:33–04:22
- Elizabeth Castillo and Direct Action in the U.S.: 06:09–07:19
- Effectiveness of Local vs. National Resistance: 08:46–09:32
- Psychological and Social Components of Activism: 15:26–18:39
- Debating When to Leave a Country: 19:09–24:55
- On Being a Journalist vs. an Activist: 27:38–28:53
- Changing Nature of Protest Movements: 29:14–32:25
Closing Thoughts
The episode is both sobering and motivating. Gessen and Goldberg underline the complexity of resistance—how it happens, who takes it on, what it costs, and when it becomes futile or even impossible without organizational infrastructure. Both emphasize that, however fraught, community and clarity are often found in the act of standing up, even when outcomes remain uncertain.
“We’re in uncharted waters...I’ve been writing about autocracy for most of my life, and yet I don’t think we’ve ever seen anything like this.”
— Masha Gessen (09:32)