Maureen Dowd on Trump the Narcissist, Act II

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Opinions – Maureen Dowd on Trump the Narcissist, Act II

Episode Information

• Title: Maureen Dowd on Trump the Narcissist, Act II
• Host/Author: The New York Times Opinion
• Release Date: January 30, 2025

In this episode of The Opinions, hosted by Patrick Healy, Deputy Editor of New York Times Opinion, Maureen Dowd delves deep into the evolving presidency of Donald Trump. Building on her extensive coverage of Trump over the decades, Dowd offers a nuanced analysis of his transition from the tumultuous first term to what she describes as a more controlled and commanding second term. This comprehensive discussion touches upon Trump's unique approach to power, his portrayal in media and culture, the Democratic Party's struggles in responding to his strategies, and the broader implications for American democracy.

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1. Trump's Ascendancy: From Chaos to Control

Patrick Healy opens the conversation by referencing Dowd’s recent column on Trump’s inaugural speech, highlighting a perceived transformation in Trump’s demeanor and governance style. Dowd articulates that while Trump initially appeared as a "clown" or a "dilemma" during his first term, his second term paints him as a "master and commander" with unprecedented control over his administration.

Maureen Dowd [02:04]: “When he was first president... he was trying to play the Washington game. But now that's all gone.”

This shift suggests a deliberate move away from conforming to traditional political norms, embracing a more authoritarian and self-assured leadership style.

2. The Divine Image and Silicon Valley’s Embrace

Dowd examines the symbolic elements of Trump’s inaugural speech and the associated visuals, drawing parallels to divine archetypes. She discusses how Trump’s relationship with Silicon Valley has evolved, noting a newfound admiration from tech elites who previously distanced themselves.

Maureen Dowd [02:19]: “Part of it... was ratcheted up to be more like, he's a divine creature.”

She highlights the irony of Silicon Valley figures like Mark Zuckerberg transitioning from liberal adversaries to fervent supporters, exemplifying Trump’s ability to reshape alliances.

3. Media Portrayals: SNL and Cultural Perceptions

The discussion shifts to the portrayal of Trump in popular media, specifically referencing Saturday Night Live (SNL). Dowd observes that while SNL caricatures Trump as a "blowhard," his exaggerated, jokey persona inadvertently diminishes the perception of his authoritarian tendencies.

Maureen Dowd [05:32]: “He still does.”

This portrayal creates a complex image where Trump's aggressive policies are softened by his humorous exterior, making the threat he poses less immediately apparent to the public.

4. The Democratic Dilemma: Flatlining Opposition

Dowd critiques the Democratic Party's response to Trump, describing it as "flatlining" and reactive rather than proactive. She argues that Democrats have lost touch with the electorate by failing to present a compelling alternative vision, instead merely countering Trump’s moves without offering substantive policies.

Maureen Dowd [17:18]: “The Democrats just seem flatlining... They lost all the fun, all the inspirational mojo.”

This stagnation leaves the party struggling to effectively challenge Trump's dominance, exacerbating their inability to galvanize support against his policies.

5. Trump’s Governing Style: Personality Over Policy

The conversation explores how Trump has intertwined his personal identity with his governing style, prioritizing his persona over traditional administrative functions. Dowd posits that Trump's governance is fundamentally about his image and influence rather than systematic policy-making.

Maureen Dowd [18:30]: “Trump has subsumed the idea of governing with his personality. It's just about him and his I.D. and that's it.”

This approach raises concerns about the sustainability and effectiveness of his administration, as governance becomes increasingly personalized and less about collaborative policymaking.

6. Historical and Mythological Comparisons

Drawing from her academic background in English literature and Greek mythology, Dowd compares Trump's administration to the capricious and cruel nature of Greek gods. She suggests that Trump's leadership style embodies traits of divine cruelty and selfishness, reinforcing his image as an authoritarian figure.

Maureen Dowd [14:16]: “The White House now is reminding me of the Greek gods because they were so cruel and capricious.”

This metaphor underscores the perceived dangers of his unchecked power and the potential for unprecedented authoritarianism in modern American politics.

7. The American Archetype and the Con Man President

Dowd reflects on Trump's archetypal role in American culture, likening him to the quintessential "con man" — a figure traditionally relegated to side roles in American narratives but now thrust into the highest office. This shift disrupts conventional expectations of presidential decorum and integrity.

Maureen Dowd [12:41]: “He's played into a beloved American archetype, which is the con man... but we've never had the con man as president.”

This characterization emphasizes the disruptive impact Trump has had on political norms and public trust in leadership.

8. The Cost of Authoritarian Policies

Examining specific policy areas, Dowd highlights Trump’s actions such as scaling back abortion rights and reversing protections established by the Biden administration. She underscores the implications of these moves as part of a broader authoritarian agenda masked by Trump’s charismatic and humorous facade.

Maureen Dowd [13:04]: “He's already scaling back on abortion rights and reversing some protections Biden had put in place.”

These policy reversals signify a tangible shift in governance, moving away from democratic principles toward more restrictive and controlling measures.

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Conclusion

Maureen Dowd’s analysis in this episode provides a sobering look at Donald Trump’s presidency, emphasizing his adept manipulation of power and persona to maintain control. Through historical parallels, media critique, and policy analysis, Dowd elucidates the complex dynamics of Trump’s leadership and the significant challenges it poses to American democracy. The discussion serves as a critical examination of how Trump's unique brand of narcissistic leadership is reshaping the political landscape, leaving the Democratic Party and the nation grappling with unprecedented governance styles and ideological shifts.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Maureen Dowd [02:19]: “Part of it... was ratcheted up to be more like, he's a divine creature.”
• Maureen Dowd [05:32]: “He still does.”
• Maureen Dowd [14:16]: “The White House now is reminding me of the Greek gods because they were so cruel and capricious.”
• Maureen Dowd [18:30]: “Trump has subsumed the idea of governing with his personality. It's just about him and his I.D. and that's it.”

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This episode offers a comprehensive and insightful exploration of Donald Trump's second term, providing listeners with a detailed understanding of the intricate interplay between his personality, policies, and the broader societal implications. Whether you’re familiar with Dowd’s extensive work on Trump or new to her perspectives, this discussion delivers valuable context and analysis on one of America’s most polarizing figures.

Transcript

[Patrick Healy]

The New York Times app has all.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

This stuff that you may not have seen.

[Maureen Dowd]

The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.

[Patrick Healy]

I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling.

[Maureen Dowd]

Click wordle or Connections and then swipe over to read today's headlines.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

There's an article next to a recipe next to games, and it's just easy to get everything in one place.

[Patrick Healy]

This app is essential.

[Maureen Dowd]

The New York Times app, All of the Times all in one place.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Download it [e-mail] Apple this is the.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times Opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.

[Patrick Healy]

I'm Patrick Healy, deputy editor of New York Times Opinion, and this is the First Hundred Days, a weekly series examining President Trump's use of power and his drive to change America. This week I want to dig into to Trump's unique approach to power and especially to controlling people and events in his second term compared to the chaos of his first. And there's no better person to do that with than my colleague Maureen Dowd. She's known Trump for decades. Maureen, thanks for being here.

[Maureen Dowd]

Thanks, Patrick.

[Patrick Healy]

So, Maureen, I wanted to start off with your column about Trump's inaugural speech last week, because I really think it defines this presidency so far, about how Trump was seen as a clown, as a dilemma by some in his first term, but now he's a master and commander of the entire fleet, that he's just really in control like we've never seen him before. Do you think this is real with Trump, or is it a performance in terms of this sense of absolute power, absolute control that he's trying to project?

[Maureen Dowd]

Well, I think when he was first president, the last go round, he was trying to color within the lines a little bit in the sense that he was trying to play the Washington game. But now that's all gone.

[Patrick Healy]

Yeah, I mean, Nixon had his Saturday Night Massacre and the system reacted to that, and Trump fired all these inspector generals and there's this question like, was it legal? Was it illegal? And we're all kind of looking at each other wondering like, well, what was it?

[Maureen Dowd]

Well, part of it, I think that after the assassination attempt, the language at the convention and in the inaugural speech was ratcheted up to be more like, he's a divine creature. The one thing you really don't want to do with extreme narcissists is give them everything they want, give them all the attention they want, because they then you are inviting a narcissistic explosion of unparalleled force, which is what I think we're heading for. But also, the visuals of the inaugural were very disturbing. A friend of mine who is a wealthy Hollywood type called me and said, oh, my God, now this country is all about money and this guy is a billionaire. But he's worried about the visuals of what Biden warned was an oligarchy. But the tech guys, the inaugural speech was like Versailles with the. I'm not gonna pronounce this right, despite my four years of Latin. Puer eternai. Do you know that expression? It means eternal boys, which is what the Silicon Valley guys are. So at the convention, he had Dana White and Hulk Hogan. It was like the macho wrestling vibe. And then in the inaugural speech, he had a different kind of boys club, the Silicon Valley boys who play with their toys. And before their toys were rockets and robots and self driving cars. And they would compete with each other and have dinner in Palo Alto once a week to make sure somebody didn't have one of these toys that they didn't have. And then they were looking at Trump like, here's our new toy. But Trump is looking at them like they're his new toys.

[Patrick Healy]

Absolutely.

[Maureen Dowd]

So I wouldn't say, you know, he's not aware of this.

[Patrick Healy]

And he loves it, Maureen.

[Maureen Dowd]

I mean, like worship, because he's always wanted the love of the elites and he still does.

[Patrick Healy]

Totally.

[Maureen Dowd]

You know, one of his top advisors told us, you and me, during the convention, that he was most thrilled after the assassination attempt that Mark Zuckerberg called him a badass and got in touch with him.

[Patrick Healy]

And after so many years of giving.

[Maureen Dowd]

Him the cold shoulder, liberal leaning Silicon Valley has now blossomed into Trump country. And Zuckerberg, Zuckerberg was fed up with liberals lecturing him, and 2016 was his fault. And, you know, as his friends in Silicon Valley said, he was just like, okay, that's enough, I'm buying a yacht. I'm not, in fact, checking. And he kind of went full blown Trumpy.

[Patrick Healy]

Trump's hunger for being worshiped is so related to his conception of power. And you and I both remember that convention, how much people were treating him. You wrote about this as like the resurrected Trump, like God saved him to do something for America. And Maureen, for a little while I thought, oh, Trump is kind of in on the joke. Like, he knows that people are believing this and it works for him.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

But.

[Patrick Healy]

But at a certain point I started wondering, does he believe this himself? I mean, he talked about that at.

[Maureen Dowd]

The inauguration, he asked him because he always ran Trump Tower in a monomaniacal way. One of his biographers said that what would happen to Trump eventually would be. He would be distilled to his essence. You know, a phrase that really scares me, but I think that's what we're seeing. You know, I think we forget that Trump didn't have celebrities the first time around. They were repelled by him. And he. He didn't have any of this respect that he has now. You know, it was a very kind of pariah. First hundred days, and there was a huge pink resistance. And Democrats are just flatlining. They still don't know what hit them or how they're going to get out of the wilderness. And so Trump has a clear highway, and he is speeding down it.

[Patrick Healy]

If Trump was distilled to his essence, what would that essence be?

[Maureen Dowd]

Well, that's what I think we're gonna see.

[Patrick Healy]

We're really gonna see it.

[Maureen Dowd]

Somebody. I was interviewing Martin Short last night on a different topic, and he said something so funny. I said, what do you think of Trump so far? And he goes, it's like the second act of Cabaret. Oh, no, I knew you would love that part.

[Patrick Healy]

You thought the first act was dark. The second act is really dark. That's perfect.

[Maureen Dowd]

Also, SNL was interesting. I was there Saturday night again working on a story in the studio, and it's very interesting to see how they portray Trump because it's a little bit like how they portray W, which they think helped W to win.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

That's right. State of Florida. Read my mouth. I am the President of the United States.

[Maureen Dowd]

You know, it's critical in a way. It shows him as a blowhard, but in a way, he comes across kind of cool.

[Patrick Healy]

You couldn't not kind of love him.

[Maureen Dowd]

Yeah, and Will Ferrell has a lot of, you know, tormented feelings about that.

[Patrick Healy]

I was a theater reporter back then. I interviewed Will Ferrell when he brought the George W. Bush show to Broadway, and he really had torn feelings about that. You know, how SNL makes these really problematic figures in our politics and our culture into just more likable.

[Maureen Dowd]

Well, Lorne's theory, Lorne Michael's theory is that even the biggest villains have to have a drop of humanity. And also, he doesn't believe in bringing your biases in. But then most of the cast members are very liberal, and they do believe in that, so there's always that tension. But there was a great story also in New York Magazine by Brock Collier. Tube went around to young Republicans parties and there's this unbelievable picture with it of all these glamorous young, white. You know, they were very white, Maureen, very white. And they say that conservatives now are urban and online. And, you know, I remember this from. I did this story on how young men in college were deciding Reagan was cool. And that was a shock to the Democratic system when that happened.

[Patrick Healy]

Reagan was such a cultural force for the Republican Party. He was gonna take on the evil empire. He was gonna stare them down. He was that golden figure from California who was gonna make America proud again. How do you see Trump as, like, a cultural figure right now? We figured that out.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Maureen Dowd]

Reagan, when I interviewed these young college kids, they loved that great paternal figure. And then with Trump, there's much more of a threat. And Mel Gibson on Fox the other night said, like, daddy arrived and he's.

[Patrick Healy]

Taking his belt off.

[Maureen Dowd]

You know, and I don't know if your parents were like that, but my dad actually did take his belt off.

[Patrick Healy]

Oh, yeah? Yeah.

[Maureen Dowd]

He never did anything about it.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

No.

[Patrick Healy]

But the threat was there. The fear was the point. You know, Maureen, I thought what SNL got really right about Trump and culture and power last weekend was that sense of, like, here's a scene with the Founding Fathers, and we will have leaders, but know one thing, in America, we will never have a king. And in strides, Trump.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Never say never.

[Patrick Healy]

Kidding, of course, though, in many ways, I'm not. I'm in my. This sort of colossus, godlike figure out of time, who's making it ultimately all about him. And I thought your take on the inaugural speech really got at this. You really identified these three words that struck you when Trump said, here I am. Here I am. And that totally took me back. You and I both went to Catholic school, and it took me back to learning about Yahweh, presenting himself to the Israelites. It all had a real Old Testament vibe to it. Here's the thing. Does Trump know what he's doing? Does this come out of some desire of his to play God with America, or do you think he's still just kind of making it up as he goes along?

[Maureen Dowd]

Yeah, the Here I am was like a promise and a threat, which he is now fulfilling. Well, I thought the SNL thing, what they got about him, which the Democrats never did, was that he is not seen as so threatening or scary because he is joking around a lot. So that makes the threat less potent. I think that the SNL caricature gets the fact that he's doing things that are very authoritarian and that eventually the public may turn on, but because he has this jokey manner, they don't think it's that scary, the people who support him.

[Patrick Healy]

It's one of the strangest things, Maureen, about the Democrats with Trump for the last 10 years. They don't understand that Trump is a very American type. He's someone who's never taken things too seriously. It's like wearing life as, like, a loose garment, so to speak. And he loves nothing more than to drive Democrats crazy with his sense of humor. Now, I'm not saying that people should not be worried about Trump at all or take Trump seriously, but they've always missed that. That's part of his appeal to a lot of just regular Americans.

[Maureen Dowd]

Right. He's played into a beloved American archetype, which is the con man we saw in Huckleberry Finn and Music man, but we've never had the con man as president. That's what's so jarring. It's always been a great side character in the American narrative, but not as president.

[Patrick Healy]

That's not very.

[Maureen Dowd]

And again, with Trump, I think the fact that he has this jokey, goofy affect makes a lot of people think he's not really gonna do stuff. But he's already scaling back on abortion rights and reversing some protections Biden had put in place. And I've interviewed him for a long time, and I asked him once, I said, you were a big playboy in New York, did you ever have to pay for an abortion for one of your girlfriends? And there was this long pause, and then he just went, maureen, you're funny. He never answered the question, but he was pro choice, and this is just something he's doing in a Faustian deal with evangelical Christians, his abortion position.

[Patrick Healy]

Maureen, a lot of Americans adored Reagan and Obama like a God, and Dick Cheney liked to play God with the world. As Trump returns to D.C. as this colossus you've written about, does he remind you of anyone? Is there anything from history in your time covering different presidents that's useful to keep an mind about these kind of moments?

[Maureen Dowd]

I don't know. You know, I got my degree in English literature, my master's degree from Columbia a couple years ago, and I took a course in Greek mythology, which I love. And the White House now is reminding me of the Greek gods because they were so cruel and capricious, and none of what they did made sense a lot of times. And it was all totally narcissistic and selfish. And so I think that's the kind of administration we're watching.

[Patrick Healy]

Trump makes these declarations about what gender is. He talks about the dishonor of trans people in the military and certainly what we're seeing about immigration. It does feel like the cruelty is the point with a lot of this.

[Maureen Dowd]

Well, you know, it was funny. I was talking to someone we know, a Brit recently about this, and I said, what surprises me about Trump is that Americans are willing to accept his cruelty. And I said, I don't think that's in the American nature. And he goes, have you ever read about the 18th century? You know, Americans were rapacious and cruel. So that was the British point of view. But I think that Trump has the Runway he has because Democrats got on the side of a lot of issues, that it's just incomprehensible. Looking back, as James Carville said, defund the police, the three stupidest words in the English language. You know, a lot of things that, as Trump calls it, common sense, but they were common sense things. I just think that Democrats lost sight of where most Americans are.

[Patrick Healy]

It was one of the most stunning things about Biden and Harris in that first term. You know, just talking to voters who come to our times, opinion focus groups, and just being out with you in Iowa and New Hampshire, people would just be like, why can't Democrats just say what's real?

[Maureen Dowd]

Why can't Democrats? But also, there was a backlash to me, too, which blended into it. I was struck by your recent focus group on Trump because they think he's masculine. And our earliest focus groups, I remember talking to Nate Cohen. I said, what is the main thing people are saying about Trump back in 2015? And he said that he has balls. So this is something that matters to voters. And obviously, men had felt displaced in this society and, like, they couldn't say anything or do anything right. And Democrats have to really think about what they did to make this happen.

[Patrick Healy]

Do you see anyone on the D.C. landscape or the political landscape willing to stand up to Trump or sending, like, signals? Like, even the Democrats don't seem to be all on the same page about how to even deal with Trump. But are you seeing anything at this point in terms of anyone standing up to Trump?

[Maureen Dowd]

The Democrats, to me, just seem flatlining. A friend of mine in Hollywood just said, our whole mantra now is delete, delete, delete. They don't want to hear about politics. They don't want to form a resistance. They don't want to know. They're just, you know, ostriches. There doesn't seem to be any plan of how to move forward. And in a way. It's sad because they're still reacting to Trump. That's how they lost in 2016, and they are doing everything just in reaction to him rather than coming up with their own vision. Democrats just lost all the fun, all the inspirational mojo that they've had sometimes over the years.

[Patrick Healy]

Maureen Trump has played so effectively on the fear that people have, people's fears in America, on the economy, immigration. But now he has to govern. Can Trump govern just on fear, on keeping people afraid, on making people bend the knee? Or at some point does he have to do something beyond emotion?

[Maureen Dowd]

I don't know. I remember once writing a line about Bill Clinton saying his personality had been raised to a management style because he would have all night bull sessions and order pizza when they were trying to pass a bill. And all presidents do that to a certain extent. But basically, Trump has subsumed the idea of governing with his personality. It's just about him and his I.D. and that's it. And it's not going to be governing in the way that we know it. I mean, Susie Wiles, I guess, has imposed some discipline, but I don't think anyone can impose discipline on Trump. He always manages to elude them and get back to his narcissistic explosion.

[Patrick Healy]

He totally does. Maureen, thanks so much for joining me.

[Maureen Dowd]

Thank you, Patrick.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

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