Musk Said No One Has Died Since Aid Was Cut. That Isn’t True.

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Musk Said No One Has Died Since Aid Was Cut. That Isn’t True."

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Opinions
• Host/Author: The New York Times Opinion
• Description: You've heard the news, here's what to make of it.
• Episode Title: Musk Said No One Has Died Since Aid Was Cut. That Isn’t True.
• Release Date: March 19, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of "The Opinions," Nicholas Kristof, a seasoned New York Times opinion columnist, delves into the critical repercussions of recent foreign aid cuts orchestrated by influential figures like President Donald Trump and Elon Musk. The episode challenges Musk's assertion that no lives have been lost due to the reduction in aid, presenting stark evidence to the contrary.

Background on American Foreign Aid

Nicholas Kristof begins by reflecting on his extensive experience reporting from impoverished regions since the 1980s. He highlights the transformative impact of American aid, particularly in combating HIV/AIDS in Southern Africa.

Nicholas Kristof [00:47]: "I've seen both children dying unnecessarily and also the difference that American aid can make."

He credits the President George W. Bush’s PEPFAR program for saving 26 million lives by providing essential HIV/AIDS medications, noting tangible success as local businesses like coffin makers reported a decline in deaths.

Nicholas Kristof [01:34]: "The coffin makers in Malawi told me that their business was collapsing because people weren't dying anymore."

Recent Aid Cuts: Trump and Musk’s Influence

The episode shifts focus to recent policy changes under President Trump and statements from Elon Musk that have led to significant reductions in foreign aid.

Donald Trump [02:09]: "Inflation by slashing spending. I imposed an immediate federal hiring freeze, a federal regulation freeze, and a foreign aid freeze we've given to countries that hate us."

Musk’s controversial tweet claimed that no one had died due to the pause in foreign aid.

Musk [02:26]: "Due to a sanity check on foreign aid funding. No one."

Investigative Journey to South Sudan

Determined to verify Musk's claim, Kristof travels to South Sudan, one of the world's poorest and most fragile nations. His findings starkly contradict Musk’s statement, revealing immediate and dire consequences of the aid cuts.

Nicholas Kristof [02:37]: "I traveled to South Sudan, which is one of the world's poorest and most fragile countries. And what I found is that what Musk said is absolutely not true."

Within hours, Kristof identifies four fatalities directly linked to the suspension of American aid, with projections indicating a dramatic rise in deaths as essential supplies dwindle.

Nicholas Kristof [02:43]: "From the aid shutdown, the toll will increase dramatically in the next few months."

Personal Stories: The Human Cost

Kristof introduces Moses Okene Labani, a healthcare outreach worker in South Sudan, who manages the care of 145 children, most of whom are orphans vulnerable due to HIV/AIDS. Through Moses, we hear the heartbreaking story of Peter Odong, a 10-year-old boy who died after his vital HIV medications were abruptly halted.

Moses Okene Labani [03:53]: "Peter Odong started taking medication when he was four years. ... he died abruptly because there was no medication."

Moses emphasizes that without American support, children like Peter would not survive.

Moses Okene Labani [04:35]: "If the USA would be here, Peter would not die because it would have been having enough medication."

The Illusion of Safety

Kristof recounts visiting a successful US-funded maternity clinic in northwestern South Sudan, which had prevented maternal and newborn deaths since its inception. However, he uncovers that Washington officials had already decided to terminate the program, leaving the community vulnerable once again.

Nicholas Kristof [05:47]: "Those programs are being cut, and these people are dying because of decisions in Washington by people like Elon Musk."

When questioned about Musk, the local community was unfamiliar with his name, symbolizing the disconnect between global impact and Western narratives.

Nicholas Kristof [06:14]: "He is the richest man in the world? Yes, he helped dismantle us. I explained it."

Arguments for Continuing Foreign Aid

Kristof presents dual arguments supporting the continuation of foreign aid: moral obligation and national self-interest.

Moral Argument

Nicholas Kristof [07:31]: "When we are the wealthiest country in the world and for 12 cents a day per person, we can help them overcome AIDS and live good lives for tiny sums, we can avert starvation, then that's just the right thing to do."

He underscores a shared humanity that binds nations together, advocating for empathy and responsibility.

National Interest

Beyond morality, Kristof highlights strategic benefits, such as soft power and disease surveillance. He warns that aid reductions not only open doors for competitors like China but also jeopardize global health security, potentially leading to outbreaks that could affect the United States directly.

Nicholas Kristof [08:27]: "China wanted to rush into the vacuum... Some Americans will die of these diseases. Some Americans will get polio and be paralyzed."

Critique of Aid Reform

While acknowledging criticisms regarding the efficiency of USAID, Kristof argues against dismantling aid programs entirely. He calls for reform rather than abolition, stressing that the current approach to cutting aid is reckless and leads to preventable deaths.

Nicholas Kristof [09:09]: "Let's reform it. Let's not just demolish it and blow it all up. Because when you do that, you eliminate not only the waste, but you result in a lot of people dying unnecessarily around the world."

Conclusion

Nicholas Kristof's investigative reporting and personal narratives powerfully refute Elon Musk's claim that no lives have been lost due to foreign aid cuts. The episode underscores the pivotal role of American aid in saving lives, maintaining global health security, and fostering international goodwill. Kristof calls for a balanced approach to aid reform, emphasizing that responsible generosity and strategic support are essential for both humanitarian and national interests.

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Notable Quotes:

• Nicholas Kristof [00:47]: "I've seen both children dying unnecessarily and also the difference that American aid can make."
• Donald Trump [02:09]: "Inflation by slashing spending... We're giving billions and billions of dollars to countries that hate us."
• Moses Okene Labani [04:35]: "If the USA would be here, Peter would not die because it would have been having enough medication."
• Nicholas Kristof [07:31]: "When we are the wealthiest country in the world... that's just the right thing to do."
• Nicholas Kristof [09:09]: "Let's reform it. Let's not just demolish it and blow it all up."

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Key Takeaways:

• American foreign aid has historically saved millions of lives, particularly in combating HIV/AIDS in Africa.
• Recent cuts led by figures like Trump and Musk have resulted in immediate loss of lives and threaten to escalate fatalities.
• Personal stories from South Sudan highlight the human cost of these policy decisions.
• Arguments for aid span moral obligations and national self-interest, including global health security and strategic influence.
• Reform vs. abolition: Kristof advocates for thoughtful reform of aid programs rather than their complete dismantling to prevent unnecessary deaths.

This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the tangible impacts of foreign policy decisions and the critical need for informed, compassionate leadership in international aid.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

Show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.

[Nicholas Kristof]

I'm Nicholas Kristof. I'm an opinion columnist for the New York Times. I've been covering the world since the 1980s, and I spent a lot of my time reporting in poor countries. And, and I've seen both children dying unnecessarily and also the difference that American aid can make.

[Healthcare Advocate]

One of the things that I'm proudest.

[Nicholas Kristof]

Of as an American is what we.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Did on HIV, AIDS.

[Nicholas Kristof]

And, you know, in the early 2000s.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Southern Africa was just devastated.

[Nicholas Kristof]

I would come across households of orphan kids living alone because all their parents had died and their caregivers had died. And then President George W. Bush started PEPFAR, which was his big AIDS program. It saved 26 million lives so far. And I knew it was working when on one trip, the coffin makers in.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Malawi told me that their business was.

[Nicholas Kristof]

Collapsing because people weren't dying anymore. And I just felt so good about what we as taxpayers were able to do. But that era of American moral leadership.

[Healthcare Advocate]

I fear, is now over. President Trump and Elon Musk are two.

[Nicholas Kristof]

Of the world's richest men, and they're both boasting about cutting aid for some of the world's poorest kids. President Trump says that this is one of his achievements so far to crush.

[Donald Trump]

Inflation by slashing spending. I imposed an immediate federal hiring freeze, a federal regulation freeze, and a foreign aid freeze we've given to countries that hate us. We're giving billions and billions of dollars to countries that hate us.

[Healthcare Advocate]

And Musk tweeted, no one has died.

[Nicholas Kristof]

As a result of a brief pause.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Due to a sanity check on foreign aid funding. No one.

[Nicholas Kristof]

So I thought I would check on that.

[Healthcare Advocate]

I traveled to South Sudan, which is.

[Nicholas Kristof]

One of the world's poorest and most fragile countries. And what I found is that what.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Musk said is Absolutely not true.

[Nicholas Kristof]

If just in my first couple of hours of reporting there, I had found the names of four people who had died because of the shutdown of American aid. What I heard over and over was.

[Healthcare Advocate]

That while some people are already dying.

[Nicholas Kristof]

From the aid shutdown, the toll will increase dramatically in the next few months.

[Healthcare Advocate]

As stockpiles of medicines and food run.

[Nicholas Kristof]

Out and as people get sicker and their immunity drops. And so while we're already seeing tragedies, those are going to multiply enormously in the coming months. On this trip to South Sudan, I interviewed a healthcare outreach worker named Moses. This is Moses Okene Labani. Moses was telling me who had worked.

[Healthcare Advocate]

With 145 children, mostly orphans and vulnerable.

[Nicholas Kristof]

Children, so that they could get their.

[Healthcare Advocate]

AIDS medications and stay on the medications and keep alive. And Moses told me about an orphan.

[Nicholas Kristof]

Named Peter, a 10 year old boy who he helped look after, help get his medications. So tell me about Peter.

[Moses Okene Labani]

Peter Odong started taking medication when he was four years. We enrolled.

[Nicholas Kristof]

He was born with hiv, is that right?

[Moses Okene Labani]

Exactly.

[Nicholas Kristof]

But the program shut down, there was nobody to help him.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Then his viral load increased. He got an opportunistic infection of pneumonia.

[Moses Okene Labani]

Eventually pneumonia, sickle cell also enter his body. And then he died abruptly because there was no medication.

[Nicholas Kristof]

And pretty much the same thing happened to a couple of other kids. And everybody was pretty clear that it, if it wasn't for the aid shutdown, these kids would still be alive.

[Moses Okene Labani]

Of course, if the USA would be here, Peter would not die because it would have been having enough medication.

[Nicholas Kristof]

For me. One of the most poignant elements of this trip was when I visited a area in northwestern South Sudan that had.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Never had healthcare, never had medical care. And so women were dying in childbirth, newborns were dying. And then in December, this US Fund.

[Nicholas Kristof]

Maternity clinic opened in this area with a trained midwife. And it was an incredible success.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Since then, not one woman had died in childbirth and not one newborn had died.

[Nicholas Kristof]

And I got there and you know, people saw this American showing up and asking about the clinic and they mistakenly assumed that I had something to do.

[Healthcare Advocate]

With bringing the clinic to them. And they were so grateful.

[Nicholas Kristof]

There was a mom who was in labor and she wanted to name her baby after me. And the village elders assembled and they gave speeches thanking me and thanking America for its generosity. But what those villagers didn't know was that very powerful people in Washington had already decided to cut that program.

[Healthcare Advocate]

And so that clinic was going to end that month.

[Nicholas Kristof]

And so those pregnant women in that village were going to be once More bleeding to death there. These programs are being cut, and these people are dying because of decisions in Washington by people like Elon Musk. So I asked people, you know, have you heard of Elon Musk? Does that name mean anything?

[Moses Okene Labani]

No, I've never heard about it.

[Nicholas Kristof]

So he is the richest man in the world? Yes, he helped dismantle us. I explained it.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Musk said, no one was dying.

[Nicholas Kristof]

So what would you tell him? What would you tell Eli?

[Moses Okene Labani]

And Moses said, well, that's a wrong message. Because if you wanted to learn something, you come in the grassroots. Like example.

[Community Member]

You.

[Moses Okene Labani]

You come on the grassroots. I can take you to the facility. You see the file for children. Those children. Somebody. I will call them. You see them. This is what I can tell you.

[Nicholas Kristof]

So on this trip and on other trips, when I'm in a village and I see children starving to death unnecessarily.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Or dying of HIV and aids or.

[Nicholas Kristof]

Moms dying in childbirth, then I think that this doesn't have to be this way, that we have the toolbox. We have the resources to make a huge difference. I know that some folks hear about people being hungry in other parts of the world, and they think, well, that's not our. We have to worry about our own problems.

[Healthcare Advocate]

And I guess I'd make two arguments.

[Nicholas Kristof]

For why we should care.

[Healthcare Advocate]

And one is simply the moral argument.

[Nicholas Kristof]

That when we are the wealthiest country.

[Healthcare Advocate]

In the world and for, you know.

[Nicholas Kristof]

12 cents a day per person, we can help them overcome AIDS and live good lives for tiny sums, we can avert starvation, then that's just the right thing to do. We are linked by a common web of humanity, and. And we should respect that. But, you know, for those who maybe antifreeze runs in their veins, if they don't have that empathy, then I think there's also an argument of national interest. You know, we started these programs because.

[Healthcare Advocate]

They were a way to project American.

[Nicholas Kristof]

Soft power to win friends and influence around the world. And we are in competition, particularly in Africa, with China. And as soon as we began cutting aid, China wanted to rush into the vacuum.

[Healthcare Advocate]

In Cambodia, for example, it immediately aligned.

[Nicholas Kristof]

Itself with UNICEF to become a more visible supporter of humanitarian aid there. So when we cut aid, China is a big beneficiary.

[Healthcare Advocate]

And the other thing that foreign aid.

[Nicholas Kristof]

Has done has been vigilant about surveillance for diseases like Ebola, because it is an awful lot safer and cheaper to stop outbreaks where they happen abroad. And the upshot is that, you know, some Americans are going to die of these diseases. Some Americans will get polio and be paralyzed. Some Americans will get drug resistant TB.

[Healthcare Advocate]

Which can cost half a million dollars.

[Nicholas Kristof]

Per case to address. So even if you don't care about the moral arguments, there is a actual argument and self interest about how we benefit, how we protect ourselves by trying to help others. I hear an argument periodically that USAID is wasting resources. And you know, I'm sure there is something to that. There are plenty of programs that can be improved and not all the money is invested in the best possible way. But then again, right now there are tons of American food aid that are rotting around the world because food isn't being shipped out, it's not being sent. Money is being wasted right now because of the reckless way in which aid is being shut down. And I guess more broadly I'd say that I completely agree with Trump and Musk that USAID should be reformed. But then let's reform it. Let's not just demolish it and blow it all up. Because when you do that, you eliminate not only the waste, but you result in a lot of people dying unnecessarily around the world.

[Podcast Host]

If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. This show is produced by Derek Arthur, Sofia Alvarez Boyd, Vishaka Durba, Phoebe Lett, Christina Samulewski, and Gillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin, Allison Bruzek, and Annie Rose Strasser. Engineering, mixing and original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Saburo and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Amin Sahota. The Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta, Christina Samulewski, and Adrian Rivera. The executive producer of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Dresser.