Summary of "My Values ‘Can’t Be Nullified by an Executive Order’"

The Opinions episode titled "My Values ‘Can’t Be Nullified by an Executive Order’," released on February 17, 2025, features an in-depth conversation between Lydia Polgreen, a New York Times Opinion columnist, and Kirk Johnson, the founder of the List Project. This episode delves into the complexities of American values regarding immigration and refugee acceptance, especially in the context of executive actions that challenge these ideals.

1. Introduction to American Values and Immigration

Lydia Polgreen opens the discussion by reflecting on the longstanding American ideal of being a beacon of hope for immigrants and refugees. She shares her personal connection to this ideal, rooted in her upbringing and family history. Polgreen states:

“I grew up with the idea that America is a beacon, and I think that in a lot of ways, these early days of the second Trump administration are really a reminder that there are many tensions in the United States when it comes to how we think about outsiders.”
[00:48]

She sets the stage for the conversation by highlighting the tensions that have arisen during Donald Trump's second term, questioning how these interfere with America's historical stance on immigration.

2. Kirk Johnson’s Background and the Genesis of the List Project

Kirk Johnson discusses his unique upbringing in a family committed to public service and humanitarian efforts. He recounts a formative experience from 1989 when his family opened their home to Ukrainian Jewish refugees fleeing the Soviet Union. This early exposure ingrained in him the values of offering sanctuary to those in need.

“Our family opened our home in this small little suburb outside of Chicago to a family of Ukrainian Jewish refugees… They lived with us for several years.”
[02:32]

Johnson’s commitment to these values led him to work with USAID in Iraq during the Iraq War. While stationed in Baghdad, he witnessed firsthand the peril faced by Iraqis who assisted the United States. This experience was pivotal, especially after a personal traumatic event that propelled him to advocate for these individuals’ refugee status.

3. Historical Context of U.S. Refugee Admissions

The conversation shifts to the history of the U.S. refugee admissions program, particularly its evolution post-Vietnam War. Johnson highlights President Ford’s influential role in advocating for the acceptance of Vietnamese refugees, emphasizing that leadership is crucial in shaping refugee policies.

“It ultimately comes down to what's in the president's mind and heart.”
[08:34]

He contrasts this with the tragic inaction during World War II, where President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s administration failed to adequately respond to Jewish refugees fleeing Europe, underscoring how presidential attitudes can significantly impact refugee admissions.

4. The Creation and Impact of the List Project

Motivated by witnessing the dangers faced by Iraqi colleagues and the bureaucratic hurdles in obtaining refugee status, Johnson founded the List Project. This initiative aimed to document and facilitate the relocation of Iraqis who had worked with the U.S. military and aid organizations.

Johnson recounts the overwhelming response he received after publishing an op-ed advocating for these refugees:

“Within a day of writing that op ed, my life was forever changed, because I was just getting bombarded with desperate emails where whole families were putting their fate in my hands to somehow get them to safety.”
[14:13]

Through sheer determination and organizational effort, Johnson successfully helped numerous Iraqis and Afghans gain refugee status, providing them with safety and new opportunities in the United States.

5. Challenges During the Trump Administration

The discussion takes a critical turn as Johnson addresses the impact of Donald Trump’s policies on refugee admissions. The reinstatement and strengthening of the Muslim Ban significantly curtailed the U.S.'s willingness to accept refugees, directly opposing the values Johnson and Polgreen uphold.

Polgreen reflects on the muted public response to the latest executive actions compared to previous protests, highlighting a shift in the national climate:

“The response this time feels incredibly muted. What do you think has changed and what do you think that says about where we are as a country?”
[19:00]

Johnson expresses his disillusionment with the current political environment, noting that the legitimacy of Trump's presidency undercuts the ability to mount effective opposition to restrictive immigration policies.

6. Personal Reflections and Resilience

Facing the grim reality of closed doors for refugees, Johnson shares his personal strategies for maintaining hope and advocating for his values despite systemic obstacles. He emphasizes the importance of personal action and community involvement:

“My personal positions and values, they can't be nullified by an executive order.”
[19:08]

Johnson describes how he and his family continue to support Afghan families and engage in grassroots efforts, reinforcing their commitment to humanitarian principles even when federal policies are restrictive.

7. The Future of American Values on Immigration

In the concluding segments, both Polgreen and Johnson reflect on the cyclical nature of progress and backlash in American history. Polgreen underscores the persistence required to uphold immigration ideals, while Johnson candidly discusses the challenges of sustaining advocacy in a hostile political climate.

Johnson expresses a realistic but unwavering stance:

“All of these values that we've been talking about... they were carved in stone. It took a couple weeks for Americans to realize that they're written in sand.”
[23:09]

Polgreen counters by referencing historical patterns of progress met with significant resistance, suggesting that the American character is defined by its capacity to rebound and uphold its foundational values.

Conclusion

The episode "My Values ‘Can’t Be Nullified by an Executive Order’" powerfully captures the struggle to maintain American humanitarian ideals in the face of political adversity. Through the personal narratives of Lydia Polgreen and Kirk Johnson, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the challenges and enduring importance of advocating for refugees. The conversation serves as both a reflection on past efforts and a call to continue championing the values that define America's role as a sanctuary for those in need.

Notable Quotes:

• Kirk Johnson on Presidential Influence:

  “It ultimately comes down to what's in the president's mind and heart.”
  [08:34]

• Johnson on Personal Values vs. Executive Orders:

  “My personal positions and values, they can't be nullified by an executive order.”
  [19:08]

• Reflection on Moral Universe:

  “The arc of the moral universe does not have any natural direction. It has no shape. It's not an arc.”
  [26:09]

• Polgreen on American History and Migration:

  “History tells us that there have been moments of progress followed by profound backlash.”
  [27:21]

This summary provides a comprehensive overview of the episode's key discussions, insights, and emotional undertones, allowing readers to grasp the essence of the conversation without having listened to the podcast.