Ben Rhodes (3:51)

I think that there are two problems that Democrats have to confront. The first, that kind of counteract the stand back and let them destroy themselves theory, which, by the way, I think in normal political times would be absolutely right. Just do very little. They'll crash the economy and we'll win some midterm elections in two years and we'll be back in the game. I think the two problems with that are, number one, I think Democrats underestimate just how profoundly loathed they are right now. I mean, I say that as a Democrat, you know, like, if you are under 30, the only national Democrats you've really known are Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden and then maybe 100 days of Kamala Harris. And I like those people, but those people are definitely not tomorrow. And they kind of represent Washington and they represent certain ways of doing things that people think have failed. And I think Democrats would make a big mistake if they assume, like, oh, we came pretty close in this election, and therefore it's not as profound a rebuke of us as it might be. The rebuke to Democrats is that Donald Trump is more popular today than he was eight years ago. And I do not think that's because he is some singular. I mean, he's a singular figure, but I don't think he's, you know, has that degree of depth of appeal in the country. I think part of it is the loathing of Democrats. And then on the other side, I think that you make a mistake in thinking that these people are going to kind of go quietly into the night. You know, if there's a recession, they'll just take their electoral beating and go home. I mean, people like this don't, don't give up power voluntarily. They really don't. And whatever that looks like, whether that's Trump trying to run for another term or whether that's just kind of total governmental capture, it could be too late for Democrats in four years to at least lay the predicate that they're fighting back. So I think they need to show people just what they care about. They need to totally, I think, generational change in terms of who the faces of this party are. And they need to get back out in the country where people are actually experiencing the things the Trump administration is doing and kind of reinvent themselves not as this kind of party of governing in Washington, but once again, as kind of a movement party on behalf of primarily working people. But anybody that, frankly, that is being harmed by Trump, which is going to be a lot of people.

Ben Rhodes (5:58)

So you touched on something that I was talking recently with Congressman Jason Crow about the way back for the party, and he did speak to the idea that the party has become this kind of knee jerk defender of institutions that a majority of the country don't see as working and that you can't defend the federal government and look like kind of this change force or somebody who's even really in touch with what's going on. So it sounds like you think that they just kind of need to not necessarily keep the government defense at arm's length, but that they need to change their approach to that. I mean, just like their entire. Yeah, their entire stick on government.

Ben Rhodes (6:41)

Well, yeah. I mean, and to be very specific about this, too, the Democrats, you've seen them in recent days, you know, protesting outside of USAID when it was shuttered. That shouldn't happen. And I say that as someone who's profoundly concerned about shutting those agencies. They should protest at a VA center in somebody's congressional district out in the country. You know, they should be protesting where the services hit people's lives that are being removed. If people see a bunch of people in front of a government building in Washington, they don't even think about necessarily what's going on in there. But if people see the local VAs getting cut, like that is something that's tangible to them. And I think it's both the defending the status quo and also just this kind of sense that Democrats are entirely the party of Washington. You know, we used to laugh, you know, scoff at Trump and his rallies. I was watching that as someone working the Obama campaign. I was like, well, that. That kind of looked like our. Our approach to politics, to get out with big crowds and do stuff. And I think that there's a mentality, not just among Democratic electeds, but sometimes among kind of your more engaged Democrats, shall we say, your online Democrats, that these people are going to emerge from a room in Washington with like, a formula, like a set of talking points. And. And that's not how it works. Like, you got to get out in the country and actually do things.

Ben Rhodes (7:54)

I do think that there's a misconception about what the federal government is. I do think that it's not even just people who don't pay attention to government and politics. There's this sense that all of these people are in Washington, that Trump is firing, that he's letting go huge hordes just in, you know, inside the Beltway, so to speak. Whereas in reality, a huge percentage of federal workers are in Colorado, Alabama. You know, I think it speaks to your point. They really do need to be out in the country showing where the rubber meets the road on these things. Because it's my sense that there's a lot of schadenfreude in certain parts of the nation about, oh, well, it's finally Washington workers turn to feel the sting of the economic downturn, and that's just not really what the federal government is all about.

Ben Rhodes (8:42)

That's exactly right. I was talking to a woman for this piece who's been run a bunch of movements successfully in Europe, and she's like, just make it about an issue, too, right? Like, you have a movement around healthcare, and you're at VA facilities, or you're at places that are being hit by the removal of Medicaid or something like that. Or you could do that, by the way, around any number of issues, too. You could do it around protecting Social Security, you could do it around some of the cuts to food safety. Anything that people care about that hits them in their lives. And the good thing about doing that, too, is if you're trying to build momentum in places like that, you don't need to make sure that everybody who shows up at your movement, you know, at your rally or your protest or your town hall, you don't need to quiz them on the way in. You know, Chris Murphy said this. The senator from Connecticut said to me, we ask people to agree with us on 12 things, and if you only agree with 11, you're not invited here. Particularly if that extra thing is a cultural issue or an identity politics issue. If you're Making this in the country about issues that people care about in their lives. You don't need this kind of across the board purity tests. Like there could be someone who thinks they hate Democrats but is really mad that their VA healthcare is being taken away. Invite that person in.

Ben Rhodes (9:51)

So who do you think would be the good face of the opposition? Give me some figures going forward, who you think have what it takes.

Ben Rhodes (9:58)

The few I put it out there in the party right now are obviously, you see Alexandra Ocasio Cortez, she has that extra thing. People are just interested in what she is saying and doing. And she's drawing big crowds at Bernie Sanders. And then I think if you look in Washington, you've got people like Chris Murphy and Brian Schatz and Andy Kim, who I talked to for this piece, who are in the Senate, Alyssa Slotkin, who they obviously put out for the response. And I look in the House at a guy like Jason Crow, you know, service record, a guy like Ro Khanna who's trying to stir things up a bit. Then you look at governors and you've got Gretchen Whitmer in Michigan, you've got.

Ben Rhodes (10:30)

Oh, I love me some governors.

Ben Rhodes (10:31)

Well, that's thing I don't think the next president is likely to be a Washington Democrat, you know, so then you.

Ben Rhodes (10:37)

Look at, I am like very pro team governor with these things.

Ben Rhodes (10:40)

You know, it's. And it's just a different look for the party. And part of what I think distressed people about last time is if we'd had an open primary, you know, Westmore of Maryland, Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania, Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan, there are plenty of pretty capable people that would have been.

Ben Rhodes (10:54)

In such fabulous choices.

Ben Rhodes (10:55)

Middle aged people at least. And then the last thing I'd say is like be open to somebody else too. Like, you know, somebody who's not from politics. Let's see who gets like some credibility and authenticity with the electorate in the next couple years. And I think there's a great opportunity for the party, I really do, to regenerate. You know, if there's some older generation kind of steps aside, there's going to be some energy that's building. You've already got some pretty talented people in these different places and let's just kind of look like a different party and two or three years.

Ben Rhodes (11:26)

So you touched on the authenticity word, which when I was talking to Crow, I heard about this when I was, I was talking to AOC about where to go with the party. Authenticity came up again.

Ben Rhodes (11:37)

I think sometimes people fret over like.

Ben Rhodes (11:39)

The words that we're using.

Ben Rhodes (11:41)

And it's so much more than words. This is about not just talking about it, it's about being about it. And people can just smell from a.

Ben Rhodes (11:52)

Mile away if you're one of them. So with the Democrats problems, my sense is that yes, you talk about issues, yes, you make clear what your core values are, but that a lot of it is that they don't know how to talk to normal people and not sound like they're running some kind of freshman seminar at some pointy headed college. How much of this is a style question that needs to be addressed?

Ben Rhodes (12:17)

It's a style question that goes deeper. And I say that as someone who's a speechwriter. If you do not sound like a human, you're not going to be effective as a messenger. And there's this saying that Biden and then Harris both repeated that. I don't blame this on them. This is the kind of consultant brain that the Democratic Party gets. How many times did we hear them talk about building a middle class from the bottom up and the middle out? Like, what the hell does that mean? You know, so the first thing is there's this kind of consultant language. It just, it just needs to go away. That was always annoying to people. But when your opponent, Donald Trump is clearly not on any consultant speak, it just makes that more glaring that you seem like the typical politicians. And then there's a second piece of this, which is Democrats, they have these public debates, you know, that astound me, where it's like, maybe we need to go on TikTok or we need to go on the Manosphere podcast. You know what? Like, if you can do that, if you can make a cool TikTok video and you're whatever your thing is that allows you to do that, that's great. If you can't, then please don't, please don't go there. Like, if you can go on Joe Rogan because you are up to speed on the conspiracy theories or you have a background in stand up comedy or you, you know, saying about ultimate fighting, that's great. But don't go on Joe Rogan to talk about building an economy from the bottom up to the middle out that will make his audience hate Democrats more. And so I think what Democrats miss about authenticity is it's not like what platform I'm on. It's the point is that authenticity is about like being yourself. It's not about like being what you think this demographic wants a politician to be.

Ben Rhodes (13:49)

That suggests that they just need to also Expand their stable to include people who can do these different things. So, like Crow, Pete Buttigieg. There's, you know, Carville. These guys go on conservative shows, and they do a really good job.

Ben Rhodes (14:06)

Yeah.

Ben Rhodes (14:07)

So if you also find people who want to talk to Joe Rogan about ultimate fighting or all of the manosphere podcasters, that's who you send out. You don't send out your policy wonks to talk about that.

Ben Rhodes (14:22)

Yeah. And look, Obama was one of the first politicians to do this kind of stuff. But you know what he did? He went on ESPN to talk about basketball because he knew something about basketball. So he would look super authentic if he was having that conversation. Very simple point, but it's really one that is missed. And to Crow's point, he's right. Like, go find. If you're not reaching certain audiences, well, then go find some people that have an authentic connection to those audiences.

Ben Rhodes (14:47)

How much of a problem is it that the party doesn't have obvious leaders, obvious faces for this? It's always a problem when you're out of power because you can't compete with the presidency. I mean, every time Trump belches or forgets somebody's name, it's saturation coverage. And at this point, you know, as you know, Chuck Schumer's not really the. The face of the future of the party. To what degree is it just a question of how do you elevate people above the white noise?

Ben Rhodes (15:18)

I. I hear you. And I get asked every day, where's Obama? Why isn't he out there? And I'm. I always say to people like, okay, maybe Obama could go out and do some big rally, but he's not going to run in two years or four years. Like, we should want other people, and we're this party, that.

Ben Rhodes (15:31)

To be clear, I don't want them looking backwards.

Ben Rhodes (15:33)

Yeah, yeah. No. And that's the thing.

Ben Rhodes (15:34)

They need to be looking forward.

Ben Rhodes (15:35)

I think the problem for this party is our nominees, our leaders tend to be the people who've been around forever, and people are sick of people that have been around forever. Right now, like a catastrophic mistake, like, to point was putting Gerry Connolly in charge of the Oversight Committee for the Democrats in the House instead of aoc, not because the Oversight Committee's the most important thing in the world, but. But just because the message it sent, we have a carrot. This is the only Democrat in Washington who. People who don't follow politics closely are kind of interested in what she has to say. If they're under 35 and have a pulse you know, we are on a sinking ship here, people. And so what needs to happen is the party, through its resources, through whatever platform it has, just needs to be elevating younger people, elevating the next generation of people, and having them come forward. And then I think we have to be open to anything and everybody in this kind of emergency that we're in. I think in the kind of more medium term, like, at some point, I would like the Democratic Party to be attractive enough to have those people not be embarrassed to put Democrat next to their name. It felt not to sound like Bill Guy, but, like, in 2008, people wanted to be a Democrat, you know, And I say this in the piece, Michelle, like, I hate what Trump's done, but he destroyed his party and rebuilt it. This can be done. And part of Trump's credibility with the electorate is that he broke his own party. And what voters know is that, hey, if Trump will fight his own party, he'll fight anybody. When Democrats look afraid to even fight, you know, tell Joe Biden he's too old or tell Chuck Schumer he shouldn't capitulate. Well, it just makes it seem like, well, these guys are weak. They can't even stand up to each other. How are they going to stand up? For me?

Ben Rhodes (17:12)

Now, I wanted to take a step back, back and talk about the international scene, because I think one of the things that you touched on early is that this is not a normal political time. This is not a normal political moment. And I think, in part, the American electorate doesn't have any kind of context for what to do, how you would even work on being the opposition in a situation like this. But you've taken this question global, and you've talked to some folks who have been in countries where there was a slide toward autocracy. So what did you hear in those conversations?

Ben Rhodes (17:50)

I heard a lot of concern that Americans don't seem to understand what's happening here and just how bad it is, and that that is evident to people around the world. In the absence of pushback, the absence of protests, the absence of the kind of corporate total capitulation to Trump, the capitulation of different sectors. Now we're in academia, law firms. We've seen some capitulation from media, not the outlet we're currently speaking on, but what they say, because the point of the authoritarian playbook that Trump is running, which has been run in many countries around the world, is initially make the opposition feel so demoralized that they don't push back. But then by the time that they do push back, they can't, because there's been a sufficient capture and intimidation of civil society and of the private sector and the capture of the instruments of government. And we're in the phase that people are watching from the outside where people still could push back, but they're not. And capitulation is not a strategy that if for every law firm and university that gives Trump a pound of flesh, he's going to come back for more, not just from them or from others. Always? Yeah, always. And this is obvious, but it's somehow lost on people to some extent and also to see what this is setting up. But that was the main message, is that you need to shake off the kind of self censorship that takes hold in these circumstances and shake off the waiting for somebody else to charge up the Hill and start coalition building and doing things right away.

Ben Rhodes (19:18)

Well, that I wanted to. But before we go, I wanted to read a comment that somebody had sent in which it's from Jonathan, and he notes, quote, it's exceedingly frustrating to hear plans and strategies for the regaining of political power by the Democratic Party. Why? Because we're in the middle of a takeover of our government by a lawless and violent faction. Discussing ways in which this can be successfully opposed by a properly considered political strategy is simply fatuous. In fact, many supporters of that faction are muddying the waters by suggesting Democratic political strategies. But these are distractions. So I think if I'm reading Jonathan correctly, he feels like extraordinary measures are called for. We're an extraordinary time, and he wants to see something transformational. And what can the Democratic Party do to channel that kind of rage where it just feels like the moment is so dire?

Ben Rhodes (20:24)

So I totally agree with Jonathan, and he can feel free to lump me in with the political strategists. But my point is essentially, Democrats love to, for instance, sit around and be like, what's the policy agenda that will win back America? Nobody cares. And there's great ideas out there and the abundance agenda and all the rest of it, but nobody is going to read that right now. That's a great idea for Democrats if they actually win back power, or maybe if they're in power now. But where Jonathan's right is like we're in quicksand and we're going underneath and we're sitting here debating policy ideas for some hypothetical future when we're in charge, or we're debating what podcast to go on. To me, you just need to show energy. And whether it's moral outrage or determination, my point in the piece is don't wait for a Democrat to save in Washington. Like, people just need to get in the streets or businesses need to start banding together. Institutions need to stop capitulating. I mean, the way you get out of things like that is you grab one another's hand. And I think what the Democrats need to do is like, flood the zone out in the country. Like, just start doing things. It's actually not a strategy. Well, it is a strategy in the sense that it's like stop doing what you're currently doing in Washington and just go out and essentially collectively protest. I don't think Bernie and aoc, you know, checked with Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries about whether they could go do some rallies. They just went and did them because that's what they're good at. And, like, that's what people need to do more.

Ben Rhodes (21:44)

Okay, skip the consultants and poll testing. Get up, get out there. And with that, call to the Ramparts. Ben, thank you so much for joining me.

Ben Rhodes (21:53)

Always great talking to Michelle.

Michelle Cottle (22:15)

If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. This show is produced by Derek Arthur, Sophia Alvarez, Boyd, Vishaka Durba, Phoebe Lett, Christina Samulewski, and Gillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin, Alison Bruzek, and Annie Rose Strasser. Engineering, mixing and original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Saburo and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Amin Sohota. The Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker, and Michelle Harris. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta, Christina Samulewski, and Adrian Rivera. The executive producer of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose, Dresser.