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The Opinions
People Still Want to Get Married. Why Aren't They?
00:19:28
What’s the problem with marriage? That depends on whom you ask. The Times Opinion editor Meher Ahmad is joined by the Opinion writer Jessica Grose and the author Glynnis MacNicol to discuss the current shift away from marriage and romantic relationships, and what these cultural changes mean for our society at large.
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- [00:01]
Glynis McNicol
Hi, it's Alexa Weibel from New York Times Cooking. We've got tons of easy weeknight recipes and today I'm making my five ingredient creamy miso pasta. You just take your starchy pasta water, whisk it together with a little bit of miso and butter until it's creamy, add your noodles and a little bit of cheese.
- [00:18]
Jessica Gross
Hmm.
- [00:19]
Glynis McNicol
It's like a grown up box of Mac and cheese that feels like a restaurant quality dish. New York Times Cooking has you covered with easy dishes for busy weeknights. You can find more@nytcooking.com.
- [00:32]
Podcast Host
This is the Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times Opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.
- [00:45]
Meher Ahmad
I'm Meher Ahmad. I'm an editor for New York Times Opinion section. And recently I've been reading and hearing a lot about the malaise that women are feeling about romantic relationships, particularly the heterosexual kind. And in articles on podcasts, there's been a slew of deep dives into the emotional labor of dating men, the problem with marriage, and how dating apps are leaving women feeling hollow. But of course, people have been complaining about the travails of coupling for generations, but it seems like something new is afoot. So what's with this onslaught of relationship discontent? In the cultural Zeitgeist, I'm joined by my colleague Jessica Gross, who writes about family, culture and relationships, among other things, and writer Glynis McNicol, who has written two memoirs about being single, childless, and continuing to pursue happiness and a meaningful life into her 40s and 50s. Jess Glynis, thank you for being here.
- [01:34]
Jessica Gross
Thanks so much for having us.
- [01:36]
Glynis McNicol
Thank you.
- [01:38]
Meher Ahmad
So I wanted to start by talking about, like, is there a sense of doom around relationships in our culture right now? Jess maybe, if you want to start.
- [01:46]
Jessica Gross
So I think a number of things are going on at once. If you look at the polling of high schoolers, roughly the same percentage are saying they definitely don't want to get married as did decades ago. So it's like 5% saying this is definitely not for me. Where I think we are seeing the discontent is number one, online dating. I think people find it dehumanizing, soulless, unfun. I say this from zero experience. I have not been on a date since 2005, but that is my sense that a lot of it is specific unhappiness with the online gamification of relationships. But then also I do think that this is the first generation. So millennials, you know, younger gen X Gen Z, where for some people marriage is not compulsory. You don't have to get married to have an idea that you will have a fulfilling life. And so once it's a choice, then there's a lot more negotiation. And I also think we're in a moment where more and more women are financially self sufficient. And so in terms of coupling, just for financial reasons, which has been, if you know the history of marriage, marriage used to be an exclusively financial arrangement, but in the, you know, let's say 200 year history of love marriage, the idea that women could be self supporting and self sustaining, that's like the past 20 years that it's a majority of women who could support themselves into adult life. And so that's just a renegotiation of traditional gender roles. And I think the complicated feelings around the renegotiation of those traditional gender roles is ongoing.
- [03:33]
Meher Ahmad
Glynis, what's your take? Where do you think the sense of doom is coming from?
- [03:37]
Glynis McNicol
Well, I'm on the flip side of Jess, which is I'm in my early 50s and I have been on a date in recent times, but I'm on sort of the other side of the doom, I think is coming primarily from women in their 20s and early 30s who would historically be looking to marry or to have children. And the exhaustion and the sense of pessimism is it's coming from not seeing a path forward to that in the structures that we've been presented as, you know, the traditional ways to approach both. And I don't fault them for that. I think online dating, and even in my experience of it as just as the gamification of it leaves you with this sense of, you know, I don't like this one, I'll move on to the next one. There's not sort of a commitment factor because it doesn't benefit these apps. And I would also say, you know, in bigger picture, yes, the financial expectations that used to be the basis for partnership have diminished, but the cultural expectations have too. So the more that women are able to tell their own stories or create their own narratives, it diminishes marriage as the goal, essentially, and allows women to explore other avenues that are as satisfying or more satisfying or lead to a happier, more fulfilled life. And oftentimes that is outside of marriage. And so, you know, previously there was no comparison between, you know, the only avenue to happiness and satisfaction was through marriage and motherhood. And anyone outside of that was the lonely spinster aunts in the attic. And now we have a lot of examples of what it looks like to be leading a life out outside of that, and the ways it can be fulfilling and enjoyable and adventurous. And so I think in this conversation of rethinking what this looks like, you're like, well, actually, the alternative doesn't look too terrible. And then you add to that just one final thought is, you know, in a country that does not provide childcare or much support for women who do want to be parents, you hear a lot of stories about that path in life and how punishing it is. And again, in comparison to the alternative, when the alternative, for the first time in history is starting to look far more enjoyable, I think contributes to this sense of, well, what is the point of this?
- [06:06]
Meher Ahmad
Well, so rates of marriages have been steadily falling over a century, but they've plateaued in the last few years. And there was a recent Pew Research center survey in which 48% of women said that being married was not too or not at all important for a fulfilling life, compared to 39% of men. So what do you make is the reason behind this? Is it social media? Is it apps? Is it the state of the world? I mean, both of you sort of circled around this question of, like, alternatives to this one form of partnership, in a way. But I am curious whether you see the plateau as having some kind of factor into these larger societal trends, too.
- [06:43]
Jessica Gross
I mean, marriage is considered by a lot of people to be a capstone. This is sort of how the sociologists refer to it. And so people really think that they need to have their ducks completely in a row, financially and emotionally, before they are ready to get married. And that didn't used to be the case. I mean, people used to get married a lot younger. The biggest thing I would say is that it is taking young people much, much longer to feel that they are in a place that is settled enough to get married. And I think, you know, as Glynis correctly points out, there is a vision of a fulfilling alternative. And so I guess I always pay a lot of attention to the way these questions are asked. And so I think I probably would say being married is not too important for a filling life, because I believe that other people can definitely have a fulfilling life without being married, while also knowing that my being married in what I think of as a good marriage is one of the most important aspects of my life.
- [07:49]
Meher Ahmad
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [07:51]
Glynis McNicol
I also think we came. It's hard to separate Covid, I think, from this conversation, because during COVID and coming out of COVID we heard so loudly and understandably from so many women who felt that they were shouldering all of the household responsibilities, all of the childcare responsibilities, in a very, you know, intense and difficult time. And I think how that narrative filtered down to younger people thinking about whether or not they wanted to get married is hard to say. And I also think people change their minds. You know, my niece told me when she was 6, she idolized me, and she was like, I don't want to get married. I want to live in New York by myself and be a colorer. And I thought, wonderful. You know, like, you have another example. And now she's, you know, a teenager, and all she talks about is, you know, like, not all she talks about. She talks about plenty of things, but it's like when I have kids, when I'm married, I think, you know, so these ideals shift as you age, and everyone's experience is so individual. I think, you know, we have the statistics that are so popular now that say marriage benefits men and it doesn't benefit women. But at the same time, you don't know who's shouldering the intimacy or the emotional support in the house. Like, you can't see inside other people's marriages. I think the bigger question that applies to this is how are we, through laws and nationwide structures, supporting the institution of marriage so it can be as fair and as egalitarian as possible? And that often comes down to childcare and the penalties women experience once they do start having children.
- [09:24]
Meher Ahmad
Yeah, I mean, Glynis, I think, just like, since you're interested, you know, broadly in how these changes are happening in the culture, are these changes in the sense of people rejecting marriage as an institution, heterosexual partnership as an institution, are they necessarily a bad thing? I mean, for you, you've written a lot about what you're describing, building your life around, embracing singlehood and outside the confines of this kind of specific institution. You've also written pieces in the Times about this. What do you make of the degree to which the culture is shifting? Do you think that more and more women are starting to embrace this idea? You know, you've mentioned that these narratives are just starting to emerge. Does it feel more viable to more women at this point?
- [10:02]
Glynis McNicol
I mean, I can only tell you based on the women I hear from. I think there's. When narratives do pop up, there's an enormous relief in seeing your life reflected in a cultural narrative. To not have that feels extremely isolating and punishing. And that also filters down to how we regulate institutions. And just as basic as, you know, traveling. Right. You are financially punished for traveling by yourself. I think this is why Tracee Ellis Ross solo show has taken off. The way it has is that it's just nice to see some version of your life. But the reality is to be financially independent is very, very difficult. We're not living in a world in which the structures support that in any way. There are amazing things about living like this, and there are very difficult things about living like this, which is exactly the same truth about marriage. In a good marriage, Right. Like, I can love my life, but doesn't suggest that there aren't very hard things and there aren't those. Some of those hard things are not tied the ways in which I am required to live in America. But, you know, that's very true of marriage at the same time.
- [11:12]
Meher Ahmad
Well, so let's talk about the people who are still in pursuit of this type of partnership. Not just marriage, but heterosexual partnership. And one of the things that some of these pieces have touched on is the idea that these dating apps as a means to finding a partner have made it so difficult. I think, Glynis, you touched on this kind of feeling of endless option and just kind of continuing on. And, you know, I'm curious if you. These apps have made it so women, men, anyone using them feels as if they have this ideal in their head, a kind of, like, perfect partner. You hear of red flags a lot. Like, if this person has this red flag, then I'm not gonna go on a second date. But in a city like New York or major American cities, it can kind of just feel like the deck is endless. You can keep swiping and going through as many of these profiles as you want until you find the perfect person. Is that what's adding to a level of dissatisfaction, too?
- [12:07]
Glynis McNicol
I think it's hard to separate the experience of dissatisfaction of a dating app and the swipingness from a similar dissatisfaction of all of us living on our screens or on Instagram or this. The isolation of a primarily digital existence in our social lives, which plenty has been written about. You know, the loneliness of Gen Z or the way that people are not socializing, the way that they're not having as much sex. The drinking culture is gone, which may or may not be a bad thing. And I think it's very difficult. Like, part of this exhaustion is you're only responding to a screen version of someone. You're not having a real life experience you're having. It's like responding to, like, a magazine person. There's no reality to it. And that in and of itself, regardless of whether you're searching for romance or partnership or whatever it is, is exhausting. I'm exhausted. Looking at my friends on Instagram, sometimes it can make me feel terrible. So I think that, you know, these things, these are all connected and that if you're a person in pursuit of partnership, particularly if you're a person who wants to be married and have children, which is a completely valid goal. Like the. I think often of like, I get exhausted and I'm not in this, you know, for the long term. And it's just, it's this sense of disposability and there's not even just like the basic. The way you meet someone and like, do you like how they smell? Do you like what their. Their expressions? You know, how they. So much of what a relationship, any relationship is built on is, you know, in person contact. And these apps remove that to a degree that just makes an already, I think precarious is not the right word. A situation with some risk attached to it in terms of emotions or expectations. Even more vulnerable. Yes, vulnerable. Even. Even more so. And then add to that a generation of. And I think, Jess, you've written about this. Who you know are so much on their screens or they're not leaving the house, or this is how they're interacting with the world. And how do you have real, any relationship when it's only screen based?
- [14:12]
Meher Ahmad
Jess, what about you? Would your husband pass a red flag test if you met him on an app today?
- [14:16]
Jessica Gross
Today, yes. When we started dating in our early 20s, we would have just failed every Internet red flag test. He lived with five other guys in a concrete room with no windows. His room that we referred to as the dum dum dun. Red flag.
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Glynis McNicol
Major red flag.
- [14:36]
Jessica Gross
And I had my own slate of, you know, early 20 something issues. So if anyone under the age of 30 is listening to this, I would say people do grow up. It does happen. I think there's this notion that like, you don't grow and change. Everyone is just themselves. And it's like, no, thank God, you know, I'm not the same person that I was 20 years ago when we met.
- [15:01]
Glynis McNicol
I think the hope is you grow and change in the same direction exactly together. But I also think, just when you're saying that, I'm just thinking, you know, as we push marriage later and later, you establish yourself as an individual with your own likes and dislikes about how you live and you are, it becomes more difficult to give those things up and align yourself with someone. Whereas when I was 25. The stuff I put up with when I was 25, it's just. I didn't know any different. Like, you just. You have a much higher tolerance for the way other people behave because you have not established yourself fully yet.
- [15:35]
Meher Ahmad
What's interesting about what both of you guys are talking about is sort of what I'm hearing is that you're not seeing a whole scale rejection of partnership. Neither are you seeing a full embrace of the alternatives as, like, the next step for women as they kind of, like, progress in society or feminism, whatever you want to call it, but that we are now in this era where that partnership is not the default, and if it's not the default, that there's this kind of, like, wellspring of other options that's now starting to spring up. And what those other options look like, whether it's, like, financially feasible or whether it feels good, is still kind of like being muddled out. Like, to me, that's what I hear from women my age and older who are navigating life outside of a heterosexual partnership is just sort of like, is this better than what my life was in a marriage? Maybe it is in a lot of ways. I don't know if I should continue going this way. What's my life gonna look like when I'm 80? These are the kind of, like, questions that start to spring up when we're essentially charting a new path or questioning whether this, you know, one structure is the structure for us to kind of pursue.
- [16:39]
Jessica Gross
Yeah, I mean, I feel like in every major life choice, it's trade offs. Right. It's so individual, and it is so based on what your desires are and how well you know yourself. I mean, there's so many discussions on having kids or not having kids, and I just always knew I wanted them. This was a fairly uncomplicated thing for me, and I completely understand that that is not the case for a lot of people. Um, I agree with Glynis that I think that things are sort of changing in terms of more options seeming attractive. But I think that the panic and interest and, you know, spiciness of all of these takes will just. Is sort of eternal.
- [17:26]
Glynis McNicol
I'd also just say, like, we've only had one way for women to live for most of history, so a small portion of women are now very recently able to live in a different way in a way that's, like, somewhat satisfying, and it's having an outsized effect on our understanding of what's going on, because it's that new and that shocking. And so I think that's useful to keep in mind that how brand new this is. And just the idea that, you know, there's a slice of the population, and even in America, a slice of the population who is able to support themselves outside of marriage in a way that they enjoy or find satisfying or is in some way aligned with how they want to live is striking us as enormous just because it hasn't really existed in any way before. And that, I think, is, you know, something to keep in mind as we continue to see these panicked articles about people not getting married or not having kids or whatever it is.
- [18:26]
Meher Ahmad
And part of it also kind of just seems like the stigma of it all has been lifted a little bit more.
- [18:30]
Glynis McNicol
A little bit, yeah.
- [18:32]
Meher Ahmad
So if, like, if that's the panic is one side of the coin, I think the increase of people writing these pieces is also indicative of the fact that more and more people are starting to do that. Well, thank you so much, both. This has been a wonderful conversation, and I really appreciate you both taking the time to chat with me.
- [18:50]
Glynis McNicol
Thank you.
- [18:51]
Jessica Gross
Thank you.
- [19:09]
Podcast Host
If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Opinions is produced by Derek Arthur Vishaka Darba, Kristina Samulewski and Gillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin and Allison Bruzek. Engineering, mixing, and original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Saborough and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Aman Sahota. The Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Christina Samulewski. The director of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.