Sorry, Republicans, Trump Doesn’t Love You Back

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Sorry, Republicans, Trump Doesn’t Love You Back"

Podcast: The Opinions – The New York Times Opinion
Date: May 30, 2026
Host: Robert Siegel
Guests: E.J. Dionne (NYT Opinion), Mona Charon (Bulwark, Mona Charon Show)

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the political fallout from the recent Texas Republican Senate primary, where longtime Senator John Cornyn lost to MAGA-backed Ken Paxton. The discussion explores what Cornyn's defeat reveals about Donald Trump’s influence within the Republican Party, the evolving party dynamics, and possible implications for Democrats. The hosts also dissect the burgeoning dissent among congressional Republicans in the aftermath, and later, the episode turns to the ongoing U.S.-Iran war and its impact on domestic politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Texas Republican Senate Primary: A Turning Point

• Trump's Loyalty and Cornyn's Defeat:

  • Trump’s support proved decisive, even for a candidate with significant baggage (Paxton).
  • John Cornyn's decades of loyalty to Trump didn’t save him. Trump only supported Paxton when his victory was already likely.
  • E.J. Dionne:

    “Donald Trump's loyalty only goes one way. John Cornyn went out of his way to be supportive of Trump... and it did him no good.” (01:43)

  • The rise of "MAGA Republicans" shows increasing party polarization.

• MAGA's Reach and Party Dynamics:

  • Party alignment with MAGA values jumped from 38% to 62% among Republicans since 2022, while the national self-identification rose from 11% to 19%, showing isolation from broader America.
  • E.J. Dionne:

    “The only people becoming MAGA are Republicans... the MAGA gap between the Republicans and the rest of the country has gone from 27 to 43.” (02:10)

  • Republican primary turnout is declining, especially among non-MAGA voters—indicative of party demoralization.

2. Implications for Party Strategy and the General Election

• Comparison to Past Party Behavior:

  • Mona Charon:
    Describes previous eras when parties distanced themselves from unpopular leaders, something today's GOP refuses to do.

    “Trump has managed to spray his musk over every single candidate so that they cannot escape it.” (04:11)

• Republican "Majority Makers":

  • Past Republican majorities depended on moderate seats—now, even conservatives insufficiently loyal to Trump are pushed out.
  • Both parties’ approaches to "purity tests" are briefly compared, with Dems seen as a bit more strategic currently.

    "That is something that both parties used to understand... I also have some questions about whether Democrats sometimes put purity tests and don’t think about matching their candidates to the districts.” – Mona Charon (05:38)

3. Lessons for Democrats

• Democrats are benefiting from GOP infighting but must avoid complacency.

• Smart candidate selection observed in Texas, where voters chose a candidate (Talarico) with crossover appeal over more polarizing figures.

• Mona Charon:

  “Democrats are being handed... the chance to possibly win a Senate seat in Texas for the first time in decades. They need independents desperately.” (07:06)

• Democrats like Talarico in Texas are mounting campaigns with moral and spiritual critiques, resonating beyond just policy.

  • E.J. Dionne: “It is really a moral critique... not just political, not just economic, but a kind of moral view of how are we behaving toward each other.” (07:53)

4. The "YOLO Republicans" and Post-Defeat Honesty

• Concept Introduction (YOLO = You Only Live Once):

  • Cornyn and other defeated/retiring Republicans may now feel liberated to vote and speak honestly, though their numbers are too small to effect major legislative change.
  • Recent forthrightness from figures like Tillis and McConnell on Trump’s proposals, specifically the “slush fund” for January 6 defendants.

    “Thom Tillis... said, regarding this slush fund... ‘I call it a payout for punks.’” – Mona Charon (10:15)

• The possibility of a dissident bloc in the Senate raises pressure on centrist senators like Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski.

• Mixed predictions about whether Cornyn and others will fully break from party discipline.

• On Republican silence versus true belief:

  “Those people, I think, are more morally culpable than the true believers because they’re so dishonest.” – Mona Charon (14:59)

5. The Iran War and the 2026 Political Climate

• Trump’s campaign promises broken (no more foreign wars, lower gas prices), with the U.S. mired in a costly, unpopular conflict.

• Discussion of Trump’s approach: more spectacle ("bread and circuses"), less substance.

  • Mona Charon:

    “Trump is like a good dictator, is trying to present his People with bread and circuses... but the bread he has not produced.” (16:15)

• U.S. finds itself trapped: unable to win decisively, facing humiliating negotiations, and Iranian ability to hurt U.S. economic interests now more publicly proven.

• Trump’s lack of strategic understanding and inability to make the case for war have left both hawks and doves dissatisfied.

  • E.J. Dionne:

    “You go to the war with the President you have, not the president you wish you had...” (18:20)

  • Both: New deal likely worse than JCPOA (Obama's Iran agreement), at significantly higher human and financial cost.

6. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Robert Siegel on the rightward shift:

  “Is one lesson for the Democrats, Mona, your opponents are suicidal—do not get in the way.” (06:11)

• E.J. Dionne on majority makers:

  “If you lost all these seats, you wouldn’t have a majority. Now... they’re willing to throw over very conservative people who just aren’t loyal enough to Trump. And that’s so dangerous.” (05:24)

• On Republican rationalization and Cornyn’s reaction to losing:

  “He says, I always support the Republican ticket, and I plan to this time. I mean, it was really kind of pathetic.” – Mona Charon (13:51)

• Mona Charon’s moral analysis:

  “Those people, I think, are more morally culpable than the true believers because they're so dishonest.” (14:56)

• E.J. Dionne (on U.S. learning from the Iran hostage crisis):

  “The Iranians are big league when it comes to humiliating American presidents, and they're doing a pretty good job on Trump right now.” (22:49)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro & Texas Primary Analysis: 01:12–04:54
• Party Strategy and Majority Makers: 05:03–06:11
• Lessons for Democrats (Candidate Selection): 06:11–08:34
• YOLO Republicans and Republican Dissent: 08:58–13:15
• Iran War and Political Effects: 15:23–22:16
• Personal Joys / Episode Close: 23:14–26:50

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Closing: Tone and Personal Moments

The hosts conclude with personal reflections: celebrations of family milestones, meaningful traditions, and the joys of rediscovering beloved music, ending the episode on a warm and human note.

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Summary Takeaways

• Trump’s domination of the GOP is more pronounced than ever, with loyalty as the new litmus test—even above ideological purity.
• The Republican Party risks electoral consequences by sidelining moderates and ignoring non-MAGA voters, as seen in turnout trends and strategic loss of “majority makers.”
• Democratic opportunities lie in appealing to independents and maintaining pragmatic candidate choices.
• The “YOLO Republican” phenomenon gives rare glimmers of post-defeat candor, but is unlikely to significantly shift legislative outcomes.
• Trump’s actions in Iran are producing domestic and international costs, undercutting his own narrative of strength and competence.
• The episode features honest, at times sardonic, analysis overflowing with political experience, leavened by human connection and cultural appreciation at the end.

Transcript

[A]

This podcast is supported by Liveright, publisher of the New York Times bestseller the Gales of November. Award winning journalist John U. Bacon delivers the definitive account of the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, drawing on over 100 interviews with the families, friends and former crewmates of those lost. A perfect Father's Day gift, this propulsive page turner is destined to be a classic, says writer Hampton Sides. While the Wall Street Journal declares that this history has never been told, better the Gales of November available now.

[B]

This is the Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.

[C]

Hi, I'm Robert Siegel in conversation about politics with, as always, New York Times opinion contributor E.J. dion.

[D]

Always fun to be with you.

[C]

And returning this week, Mona Charon, policy editor of the Bulwark and host of the Mona Charon Show. Welcome back. It's good to see you.

[E]

I'm delighted.

[D]

Great to have you here.

[C]

When it comes to politics, we are not short of material. This week, the biggest news was the Texas primary. Above all, John Cornyn's defeat in the Republican runoff for what would have been Cornyn's fifth term in the U.S. senate. He was beaten by an opponent with enough political baggage to weigh down a battalion of red caps. But Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton had Donald Trump's backing, and that proved even weightier. EJ what are the lessons there for Republicans in the Texas primary results?

[D]

Well, I think the first is a lesson they should have learned long ago, which is Donald Trump's loyalty only goes one way. John Cornyn went out of his way to be supportive of Trump. He even had a picture of Trump's book, the Art of the Deal that he was holding, and it did him no good. I think, by the way, Trump saw that Paxton was going to win and jumped on the bandwagon at the end. But in any event, Cornyn got killed. But I think there's a larger message for the Republican Party, which is, yes, this party is magnified now for something I'm writing. I've been looking at this great series of Economist YouGov polls, and they followed this closely. In September 2022, only 38% of Republicans identified as MAGA Republicans. As of May, the proportion had risen to 62%. So this party is magified. But in the electorate as a whole, the only people becoming MAGA are Republicans, so that Americans who call themselves MAGA rose from only 11% to 19%. So Maga's a really small percentage. And what I would call the MAGA gap between the Republicans and the rest of the country has gone from 27 to 43. And one of the places you're seeing this is. Is in sharp turnout declines in the Republican primary. In the first round of the Texas race, there were more people who voted in the Democratic primary than in the Republican primary.

[C]

200,000 more.

[D]

Yeah. And then in this runoff, the total turnout was 1.4 million. Donald Trump got 6.4 million votes in Texas in 2024. This is a dispirited party, and the part that's dispirited is the non MAGA part. And I think this is a real problem forward for the Republicans.

[C]

Mona.

[E]

Yeah, it's really interesting in those numbers that if you look at Paxton's performance in the initial round and then look at how he did in the runoff, it's almost the exact same number, which means those MAGA people are gonna be there no matter what, even in this kind of an environment. The primary also shows us that this is unlike political parties in the past. Political parties in the past where you had an unpopular president, which is the key to how things are gonna go in a midterm, the president would understand that his party needed to put some distance, needed to show some independence from him in order to hold onto their seats in a rough year. Not in this party. In this party, Trump has managed to spray his musk over every single candidate so that they cannot escape it.

[D]

I'm shuddering at that thought. By the.

[E]

And so they have no choice. They are going to be victims of Trump's unpopularity, and he's leaving them really hanging out there showing that he had. Well, we knew this, but he never had any interest in Republican success, except insofar as it enhances Trump's power. So he's not concerned about Republicans who might have been like Cornyn, would have been a better general election candidate. This is universally acknowledged. He doesn't care about that. He wants the party to be 100% Maga and loyal to him.

[D]

And you know what's interesting about that? I'm not in the habit of comparing Newt Gingrich favorably to others, but when you go back to Newt Gingrich as speaker, he understood that his majority was built in part by Republicans who are way more progressive than any Republican out there. Now, people like Chris Shay as a Connecticut Jim Leach in Iowa, and Republicans then understood that if you lost all these seats, you wouldn't have a majority majority. Now, in a much more conservative party, they're willing to throw over the side Very conservative people who just aren't loyal enough to Trump. And that's so dangerous.

[E]

That is exactly right. By the way, they call those people in those swing districts majority makers. Right. And that is something that both parties used to understand. I also have some questions about whether Democrats sometimes put purity tests and don't think about matching their candidates to the districts. But that's maybe a topic for another day.

[D]

I think there's less of a problem now. There are some districts where there'll be primaries, but mostly, from what I can tell, they've been pretty good at matching the right.

[E]

Yeah. I'm worried about Michigan Senate race, but that's another.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Let's talk about the lessons of Texas for Democrats. I mean, is one lesson for the Democrats, Mona, your opponents are suicidal. Do not get in the way.

[E]

Right. Never interrupt your enemy when he's in the process of destroying himself. Yes, sure, that is one lesson. But another lesson I think is, look, the Democratic primary was interesting because there you did have voters, I think, looking ahead and being kind of smart and saying, do we want Jasmine Crockett, who's a little more polarizing, who's much more appealing to the. Even though they may not have been that different ideologically, just stylistically, she was much more appealing to the progressive side of the Democratic Party. And they went with Tallarico, who has more crossover appeal. And so that was, I think, smart and looking at the future. And Democrats are being handed, look, is it the first time in 25, 30 years that they might possibly win a Senate seat in the state of Texas? And it's very important that Democrats use this opportunity by remembering that they can't win just with the Democrats. They need those independents desperately.

[D]

And, you know, I think something interesting is going on in the Democratic Party with Talarico also, I would say somebody like John Ossoff in Georgia, Greg Sargent in the New Republic had a very interesting line where he said, trump, if there's a realization that Trump and Trumpism are wrecking our common life at a very profound moral and spiritual level. And I think you're hearing Talarico, and yes, they're going after some of his theological statements from the past. But Talarico is putting not simply people's interests at the heart of the campaign, although he talks about those. I mean, you always talk about people's interests in a campaign, but it is really a moral critique. Obviously, Paxton gives him a lot of room for that, so does Trump. But it's a moral critique for how the economy works. And we're not gonna say much about it today, but I think you see in the response to Pope Leo's encyclical on AI a real longing for something that's not just political, not just economic, but a kind of moral view of how are we behaving toward each other and in our economic life. And Tellarico really nails that home in just about every speech he gives.

[E]

Yep. And he's shown some gracious toward opponents, which is a desperately needed tone in American politics. So that's hopeful too.

[D]

No, it was ironic cuz he was ready to rip up Cornyn as an establishment Republican, but he instead put out this, you know, he, when Cornyn lost, he said that we both appreciate public service.

[E]

Yes.

[D]

Just a nice little tweak at his opponent.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

John Cornyn is a member of the Senate Republican leadership team, but having lost his reelection bid, he's now eligible to join Louisiana Republican Senator Bill Cassidy, who lost his primary in the. It's not quite a caucus, but the YOLO Republicans. YOLO stands for you only live once. The idea is you've been loyal to Donald Trump in nearly everything, but now that you've been defeated by a MAGA backed opponent, you're a lame duck. You can actually vote in accordance with, with your real principles. Assuming you can remember what those were. Mona, can the YOLO Republicans actually influence events now that their spines are out of storage?

[E]

I like that. So the numbers are very close. Right. So you would need more than two or three Republicans to really affect things in the Senate in particular. And it has been the case that Republicans, even after they have lost their races, even after they've announced their retirements, have proven less courageous than one might hope.

[C]

You could still become ambassador to Lichtenstein,

[E]

I guess, pretty little place. But there has been a burst of frankness that's come out of this, what you call the YOLO caucus, which includes Thom Tillis, who is not running again, from North Carolina. From North Carolina, includes Mitch McConnell, it include several others. And they are making some pretty forthright statements. Thom Tillis, for example, said regarding this slush fund that Trump proposes, he said, I call it a payout for punks. Now that is the kind of language we haven't heard. You even heard people like Senator Mitch McConnell saying this is a quote. So the nation's top law enforcement official is asking for a slush fund to pay people who assault cops. Utterly stupid, morally wrong. Take your pick. He said, those are the kind of words you did not hear from most Republicans for the past 10 years. But I'm not sure there's gonna be a legislative impact. But what we are getting now with these newly freed YOLO Republicans is insight into what they have been saying behind the scenes all this time. And any dose of honesty is healthy.

[D]

You know, I think there are two issues here. One to go where Mona left off. It is clear that there is more dissidents publicly now than there was even a month ago. I think his endorsement of Paxton and turning his back on Cornyn actually played a role in this because Cornyn was very popular among his colleagues. He almost became the leader and he

[E]

raised a ton of money for them.

[D]

Yeah. And so I think a lot of them took that badly and so they become dissident. This slush fund is a step or five steps or a hundred steps, way too far even for them. The war itself is starting to split Republicans with some of the most hawkish Republicans. Roger Wicker from Mississippi, you know, who's not known as somebody who's gonna run out there and attack Trump, making a very strong statement about the possibility of. He didn't use the word sellout, but it was along those lines. So you are seeing this dissonance. The magic number is three plus one. The question is if these yolos vote together. YOLO is a new term. I use it respectfully. If the three of them vote together, you know who that puts a lot of pressure on is Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski. Susan Collins and Maine, who's up for reelection, and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska. Cuz they have been publicly dissident, but they could cast no votes up to now that had no actual effect on what was happening in the Senate. If these three vote no, then the Collins and Murkowski votes become very significant because they are in another sense to pick up your earlier term majority makers. They get them to 51. Now I'm still skeptical that John Cornyn, who is a party loyalist deep all the way down, is gonna break as much as I think Cassidy and Tillis might. But we'll see.

[E]

You know, John Cornyn reminds me of that great novel Darkness at Noon, you know, where this, you know, communist is arrested by Stalin and he on trumped up charges and he knows he's innoc, but after a while he just comes to embrace that if the party has arrested him, he must be wrong. He must have done something to deserve it. And I had that vibe from Cornyn a little bit. You know, I always here he has been defeated by somebody that he himself described as a moral abomination, which Paxton is. We haven't gone into that. We could. It's.

[D]

But it would take the whole segment.

[E]

Exactly, exactly. So he's beaten by this guy with the help of the leader of his party, and he says, I always, you know, support the Republican ticket, and I plan to this time. I mean, it was really kind of pathetic.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, he spent tens of millions of dollars saying what a morally flawed, to put it gently, person, you know, going after his divorce. I mean, the. It was. Those were really remarkable ads.

[E]

He was impeached by his own party.

[C]

Paxton in Texas, is it overly cynical to say that a lot of Republicans have done well by there being this constant buzz that behind closed doors, when they're not on television, when they're speaking off the record, they're expressing the same condemnation of Donald Trump that you, the center Republican, maybe even Democrat, that you're feeling. A lot of Republicans have managed to imply that they do share this critical view of Trump. They just are not saying it in public, which we may fault them for, but in a way, it's a survival strategy.

[E]

It is. But those people, I think, are more morally culpable than the true believers because they're so dishonest. Right. I mean, the true believers at least are saying what they think. And, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene believes what she believes. Crazy things. But the others, you know, who kept silent, the Mitch McConnells of the world, who in private are so critical, but in public not. Although that's now changing. I think that's actually worse.

[C]

Okay, well. Onto familiar territory in these conversations. Part of the backdrop of this political season is, of course, the war with Iran, which marked a break with two Donald Trump campaign promises. First, given the blockades in the Strait of Hormuz, gas prices at the pump have gone up instead of down. And while going on three months may not count as a forever war, the US Is finding it very hard to exit from this war without Atlantic least appearing to concede the Islamic Republic's right to rule in Iran. Mona, how do you think voters are going to perceive the war and its relation to the election and the midterms?

[E]

I promise I'm getting to the war, but I have to introduce it by saying, have you all seen this structure that they are now building on the White House lawn? It's this enormous scaffolding for a big MMA dome where they're gonna have this thing in honor of Trump's birthday or whatever. Okay. So it occurred to me, I can't wait for this. So Trump is like a good dictator, is trying to present his People with bread and circuses. So he's got the circus. It's right there on the White House lawn. The bread though, he has not produced. And that's gonna be critical. Now, regarding the Iran war, it not only violates Robert, his promises that he would not get involved in foreign wars, but it undercuts his image as I am the strong man. When I say something, it happens. Nobody can gainsay me, nobody can stand in my way, both domestically and internationally. I know how to throw my weight around and watch me. And what voters have seen is that this supposed strongman has been like marched himself straight into a box canyon in Iran. He is unwilling to send ground troops because that would be catastrophically unpopular to actually topple the regime. And so he has to deal with the regime. Yet they have been able to withstand all the pain of repeated bombings. And on the other hand, they have discovered all kinds of leverage that he did not anticipate. Cuz he's not very bright that they would close the Strait of Hormuz and that the instability and the high prices would bounce back on the American public who having not been prepared at all for this war and having had no buy in to this war, saying you're imposing costs on us without ever having asked our approval. And now he appears to be walking into a situation where he's gonna have to accept a humiliating climb down and some sort of deal that they will attempt to package as a victory. But everybody can see that it really is an American defeat.

[D]

Ej, My head is still swimming that you actually landed that intricate MMA fight metaphor. I salute you for that. I've been thinking of variations on Donald Rumsfeld's line all through this war. You go in my version, you go to the war with the President you have, not the president you wish you had. And Mona and I were talking before. Mona's pretty hawkish in her views on foreign policy, it's fair to say. And yet she's taken some grief because she didn't have faith in this war where others said, oh, great things are going to happen from this we'll topple the regime in Iran. But all those expectations depended on a long term strategy. And I think they were foolish from the beginning and they weren't going to happen. But let's assume you believed in them. You also had to believe that Donald Trump knew what he was doing in the war. The fact that he never felt an obligation to make a case to the American people for why he was doing this, the fact that the rationales at the beginning Changed day to day and hour to hour. And the fact that he just never gave a sense that he thought this was anything more difficult than throwing out the government in Venezuela, which he didn't actually do. He just has a new ally. It's still the old regime, but now sort of paid off.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

And so now we have.

[C]

He has tried to describe this already as a new regime in Iran.

[D]

No, that's exactly right. And so in the end, I think he's going to face attacks from both ends that the hawks are unhappy because they see him selling out. And more dovish people say, we told you in the first place this war was a, a terrible dumb idea. And so I think that really reduces support for this war to basically the most Trump loyal people in the electorate and almost nobody else, including non maga Republicans.

[E]

Yeah, I remember EJ but going back to the 2016 race when Trump used to always say about various problems that have plagued the country, it's so easy. He would say. It's always. That was one of his favorite go to lines. It's easy solving these problems. All you need is will. And I bring lots of that. Right. And that I think is part of the problem here is that he genuinely believed that if previous presidents had not made war against Iran, it wasn't because they balanced the risks and benefits and said, you know what, not really gonna work out very well. No, it was because. Because they lacked his iron will. And what he's discovering is things aren't so easy and will is not enough.

[D]

And he keeps attacking Barack Obama's or as he insists on saying, Barack Hussein Obama's deal with the Iranians, the JCPOA that he ripped up at the beginning. And if you look at what people are talking about, this deal may not even be nearly as strong as the jcpoa, or it will, if he's lucky, be very close to that deal that Obama made. And there's no evidence that he can get there. And by the way, there's no evidence that he has the degree of expertise negotiating this deal that Obama brought. That was a long, intricate process. The Energy Secretary was there. I mean, they were very careful.

[E]

You could two more points to add to what you're saying. One, the JCPOA costs zero American lives. This outing has already cost more than a dozen. And, and two, the other thing that has happened is we have expended all of these munitions, so it's been a tremendous economic loss for us, which we are gonna have trouble making up. And finally he has let the world know that Iran has another weapon that it didn't really know if it had before, namely the ability to close the strait. So on every level, this is far worse than the jcpoa.

[C]

I would take us back earlier than the presidents we've just heard about. Ej, you and I shared the experience of being in Wiesbaden in 1981. January of 1981, for the return of the Iranian hostages. Covering their return, the Iranians waited until Ronald Reagan had been sworn into office before they released those hostages. The point was Jimmy Carter should be humiliated by not being able to bring them out. The Iranians are big league when it comes to humiliating American presidents, and they're doing a pretty good job on Trump right now.

[D]

And when German Chancellor Mertz said that Trump was being humiliated, he used that word in these negotiations. Trump pulled 5,000 troops out of Germany. Again, just a totally personal foreign policy rooted in nothing else.

[E]

Yes. Yes.

[C]

Well, just so that we shouldn't leave you thinking only about the Strait of Hormuz or the Yolos, for that matter, we always end these conversations on some joy that we've experienced in recent days. Ej, why don't you go first?

[D]

So when our kids were young, I used to praise them for having excellent taste in the parents of their friends because we met some of the best people that we know because we had kids at the same age. And my whole Memorial Day weekend was made possible by the good taste our kids had in the parents of their friends. At a naming ceremony. It's a Jewish tradition, and I actually got to say the prayer. They invited me. I put on my shawl. I'm a Catholic kid from Fall river, but I put on my shawl. And I love the end of the prayer. It was a prayer for peace, appropriately enough, at this moment. Let justice and righteousness flow down like a mighty stream. Let God's peace fill the earth as the waters fill the sea. Amen. And it was such a moving experience. And then we headed out to our friends in West Virginia, and I discovered that, as my wife put it to our kids, I was a pool shark. I actually kind of sort of knew how to play this game. And that was a great joy, all made possible. Thank you to our kids.

[E]

I got chills, actually, when you were describing that ceremony. That's lovely.

[C]

And, Mona, some joy of experience.

[E]

I also am hitting on the kid theme, but it is that I have recently become a grandmother. My husband and I are grandparents for the first time. Thank you. So it is such sheer joy. So there are many things in life that bring us satisfaction and pleasure. But there's nothing like just being in the company of this little eight month old. And when he smiles, the whole world lights up. And I just want to say to those people who are young and who are thinking that maybe kids aren't worth it or kids are too much trouble. The greatest thing that I ever did was become a mother. I mean, it was the most gratifying, not the easiest, but the most gratifying thing I've ever done. And then the reward is if you raise your kids, you get the sheer joy of grandchildren.

[D]

You know that great old line that what do grandparents and grandchildren have in common? And the answer is a common enemy.

[C]

Yes. Well, I'll just mention one source of joy for me in this past week was going back to listen to some tracks from a record that I bought back in college and that really changed my tastes and introduced me to a whole new world. And that was an album called in those days it was called Work. You can find it online as Sonny Rollins and Thelonious Monk. I loved this album so much I must have played it a hundred times. And I went and bought every Thelonious Monk album and every Sonny Rollins album that I can find. Sonny Rollins left us, died at age 95. There's a track he plays with Monk of their version of I Want to Be Happy, which is two men who had some pretty difficult times being happy in their lives and resorted to some chemical happiness along the way. And it's just a brilliant take on an old standard and I listened to it over and over and over again and got joy from it every time.

[D]

Music like that is such a blessing and I salute your taste in jazz.

[C]

Well, E.J. dion and Mona Charon, thank you both very much for this conversation.

[D]

Great to be with you.

[E]

Pleasure. Take care.

[B]

If you like this show, follow it on YouTube, Spotify or Apple. The opinions is produced by Derek Arthur, Vishaka Darba, Victoria Chamberlain and Gillian Weinberger. It's edited by Gillian Weinberger, Jasmine Romero and Kari Pitkin. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Sabaro, Efim Shapiro and Amin Sahota. The fact check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. The head of operations is Shannon Busta. Audience support by Christina Samulewski. The director of Opinion shows is Annie Rose Strasser.

[F]

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