Podcast Summary: The Opinions – "The Claim Trump Is Making That ‘Could Break the American System’"

Release Date: March 24, 2025
Host/Author: The New York Times Opinion

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Opinions, hosted by Aaron Retika, an editor at large for the New York Times Opinion section, the discussion centers around claims made by former President Donald Trump that have significant constitutional implications. Joined by Jamelle Bouie, a renowned columnist who explores the intersection of history and politics, the conversation delves deep into how Trump’s actions could potentially "break the American system."

Trump’s Constitutional Challenges

Aaron Retika begins by highlighting a series of Trump administration actions that push the boundaries of constitutionality:

• Detention of Mahmoud Khalil: “A month ago, Mahmoud Khalil, pro-Palestinian activist, was arrested or detained even though he has a green card” [01:47].

• Targeted Executive Orders: Three executive orders were issued targeting specific law firms representing individuals the president opposes.

• Impeachment of Judges: Trump has openly called for the impeachment of judges via Twitter, indicating a direct challenge to the judiciary.

Jamelle Bouie expresses his concerns, focusing on two primary areas:

1. Dismantling Government Agencies: “The President last week issued an executive order purporting to dismantle the Department of Education... the executive cannot unilaterally dismantle a cabinet agency without Congress weighing in” [02:43].

2. Unilateral Rendition of Non-Citizens: “The President's claims that he can essentially rendition either non-citizens... without due process... is extremely worrisome” [02:43].

Constitutional Crisis vs. Constitutional Rot

Retika challenges the notion of a constitutional crisis, suggesting it's more accurate to describe the current state as "constitutional rot."

Jamelle Bouie distinguishes between the two:

• Constitutional Crisis: “When constitutions fail to keep political conflict within ordinary politics... you have mass civil unrest, anarchy, a civil war...” [04:32].

• Constitutional Rot: “A constitutional system that is in a state of deterioration... it could render the foundations of a constitutional system extremely vulnerable to crisis” [06:33].

Bouie likens constitutional rot to the gradual loss of foundational elements, making the system susceptible to sudden failure: “It's like the doorknob comes off your hand” [06:40].

Unconstitutional Actions vs. Anti-Constitutionalism

The conversation shifts to the nuanced difference between unconstitutional actions and anti-constitutionalism.

Jamelle Bouie explains:

• Unconstitutional Actions: Violations of the Constitution while still operating within some constitutional authority. For example, banning transgender individuals from the military “is something that's unconstitutional” [07:32].

• Anti-Constitutionalism: Actions that not only violate the Constitution but also reject the foundational principles of constitutional governance. For instance, the president’s attempt to dissolve a cabinet agency without Congressional approval “that is anti constitutional” [08:32].

Case Study: Removal of American Citizens to El Salvador

The discussion narrows down to a specific instance where these constitutional issues manifest:

• Execution of Removal Orders: “The administration is removing people from the country... without due process” [09:36].

• Judicial Pushback: Judges have repeatedly ruled against these actions, but the administration counters by claiming jurisdictional overreach once planes are in international waters.

Bouie underscores the severity: “The administration ... claiming the authority to declare people as threats and remove them without due process is anti constitutional” [10:00].

Chief Justice John Roberts’ Response

Retika brings attention to Chief Justice John Roberts’ unusual stance:

• Impeachment Threats: After Trump threatened to impeach a judge handling the El Salvador removal cases, Roberts issued a statement rebuking such actions: “That is not how we do things here” [14:20].

Bouie analyzes Roberts’ position:

• Roberts' Vision: “Roberts has a very expansive vision of executive power... possibly aiming to restore the executive branch to its proper level of authority” [15:51].

• Potential Miscalculations: Bouie speculates whether Roberts underestimated Trump’s interpretation of executive power, potentially jeopardizing constitutional checks and balances.

Historical Parallels and Constitutional Vision

The conversation draws parallels between Trump’s actions and historical figures like McKinley and Andrew Jackson, emphasizing a push to revert the Constitution to an earlier state.

Jamelle Bouie discusses the ideological underpinnings of the nationalist right:

• Reconstruction Amendments Under Attack: “They are trying to unravel the key victories of Reconstruction... the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments” [19:58].

• Freedom of the Master vs. Freedom of the Laborer: Bouie posits that the current nationalist ideology favors the former, undermining the egalitarian principles enshrined in the Constitution.

Sources of Hope Amidst Constitutional Challenges

Despite the grim outlook, Bouie offers a beacon of hope grounded in democratic principles and historical resilience.

Jamelle Bouie shares his optimism:

1. Belief in Democracy and Agency: “I believe in democracy... we have the right to choose our own leaders... we have agency and we can act” [23:26].

2. Historical Resilience of Black Americans: Drawing from his family’s experiences during Jim Crow, Bouie emphasizes the enduring spirit of resistance and organization: “If sharecroppers and domestics in mid-century Mississippi can stand up against genuine autocracy, then we who are in a much better position than they were can stand up to all of this” [23:55].

Conclusion

The episode concludes on a sobering yet hopeful note, highlighting the critical importance of democratic agency and historical resilience in the face of constitutional deterioration. Bouie’s reflections underscore the potential for civil society to counteract authoritarian tendencies and restore constitutional norms.

Notable Quotes:

• “The Trump administration is pushing and pushing and pushing at the outer edges of constitutionality.” — Aaron Retika [00:46]

• “Habeas corpus is a foundational part of the Anglo American legal and political tradition.” — Jamelle Bouie [02:43]

• “Constitutional rot... it could render the foundations of a constitutional system extremely vulnerable to crisis.” — Jamelle Bouie [06:33]

• “You’re treating actions as beyond constitutional boundaries altogether.” — Jamelle Bouie [07:32]

• “That is anti constitutional because on a variety of levels it's violating sort of like basic tenets of what it means to live under constitutional government.” — Jamelle Bouie [09:36]

• “We have agency, and our ability to act and resist through civil society is genuinely important.” — Jamelle Bouie [23:26]

This episode of The Opinions provides an in-depth analysis of the constitutional challenges posed by Trump’s actions, the historical context of these maneuvers, and the enduring hope rooted in democratic principles and societal agency.