The Opinions: The ‘Little Epstein Theory’ vs. ‘Big Epstein Theory’

Episode Release Date: July 19, 2025
Host: Michelle Cottle
Guests: Columnists Jamelle Bouie and David French
Source: The New York Times Opinion

Introduction

In this episode of The Opinions, host Michelle Cottle delves into a tumultuous week for the Trump administration, marked by significant victories and profound internal conflicts within the MAGA movement. The discussion pivots around two dominant themes: the fracturing of MAGA supporters over the Jeffrey Epstein investigation and the Supreme Court's landmark decision empowering President Trump to dismantle the Department of Education. Columnists Jamelle Bouie and David French provide insightful analysis on these pressing issues.

The Epstein Investigation: Fracturing the MAGA Coalition

Recap of the Epstein Saga

Jeffrey Epstein, a financier with high-profile connections, died in jail in 2019 under controversial circumstances while awaiting trial on sex trafficking charges. For years, Trump and his supporters have demanded the release of Epstein’s undisclosed files, including a purported client list.

Trump's Shift on the Epstein Investigation

Recently, President Trump has urged his supporters to abandon their fixation on Epstein, signaling a stark reversal from his previous stance. This shift has sparked significant turmoil within the MAGA base.

Jamelle Bouie on MAGA's Fracture

• [02:42] “This is the thing that seems to be fracturing the MAGA coalition... Trump is behaving exactly like someone who is trying to hide something... which makes it seem as if there’s real substance here.”

David French Introduces 'Little' vs. 'Big' Epstein Theory

• [04:06] “We’ll call them the little Epstein theory and the big Epstein theory. The little Epstein theory is, look, this is a very real crime... The big Epstein theory is essentially the Epstein story is the key that unlocks the whole globalist pedophile conspiracy.”

Impact on MAGA Supporters

• French explains that many MAGA adherents view Epstein as the linchpin of a vast, nefarious global network. Trump's denouncement of the investigation creates cognitive dissonance, forcing supporters to choose between their belief in the conspiracy and their loyalty to Trump.

Michelle Cottle on Online Reactions

• [07:21] “I’ve been on Truth Social reading his posts and then reading the comments... It's very dark. But Trump just set out to insult anybody who would have questions about this.”

Jamelle Bouie on Trump's Predictable Playbook

• [08:03] “The remarkable thing about Trump... he really is very predictable. If they see him as this avatar of vengeance against the global pedophile ring and he's refusing to act in a way that is commensurate with that, I think the response which makes total logical sense on their part is to say, well, what's up with Trump?”

Conservative and Left Reactions

Responses from the Left

• [12:45] Jamelle Bouie notes, “Some Democrats are treating this like a legitimate scandal and not just waving it away as a distraction... AOC made note that it was no surprise that someone who is a rapist would be hiding this stuff.”

Conservative Voices Stirring the Pot

• Michelle highlights the involvement of conservative lawmakers like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert, who are pushing for investigations and keeping the Epstein issue alive within conservative circles.
• [14:19] “Lauren Boebert wants Matt Gaetz to run a special investigation... It would be interesting to see who might have an interest in keeping this alive.”

David French on Influencers and Power Dynamics

• [15:21] “People with very large followings who hope to continue to have very large followings after Donald Trump is gone... There's a lot of jockeying for position going on.”

Supreme Court's Decision: Dismantling the Department of Education

Overview of the Supreme Court's Ruling

• The Supreme Court ruled that President Trump can unilaterally dismantle the Department of Education, a long-held Republican objective. This decision bypassed traditional legal processes, raising concerns about judicial transparency and separation of powers.

Jamelle Bouie on the Ruling's Implications

• [17:33] “The court lifted an injunction on like mass firing at the Department of Education without any kind of explanation... I don’t understand the rationale.”

David French Explains the 'Shadow Docket'

• [19:14] “There’s a very live debate over what to call this thing that you’re calling the shadow docket. Some have chosen the term 'emergency docket'... This is not something for which the Supreme Court was known for doing, but that has changed.”

Concerns Over Lack of Majority Opinion

• Bouie expresses confusion over the Court’s lack of a majority opinion, leaving the reasoning behind the decision ambiguous.
• [24:50] “The Supreme Court is leaving these judges to hang out to dry... the Supreme Court has left them to hang out to dry.”

Justice Sotomayor's Dissent

• A poignant dissent by Justice Sonia Sotomayor criticized the majority for either being willfully blind or naive regarding the decision's constitutional implications.
• [24:50] “Justice Sonia Sotomayor was making this exact point. She wrote that the majority is either willfully blind to the implications of its ruling or naive...”

David French on Judicial Integrity

• [25:32] “I have defended and will continue to defend the judiciary... But I cannot justify not explaining this. No matter which way I look at it, I just can't get there.”

Implications for the Judiciary and Government Balance of Power

Separation of Powers at Risk

• The decision could undermine the Constitutional balance of power by allowing the President to dismantle congressionally authorized agencies without legislative consent.

Future of Judicial Proceedings

• Bouie emphasizes the Supreme Court’s refusal to explain complicates lower court proceedings and erodes public trust.
• [29:15] “The Supreme Court is leaving these judges again... leaving them to hang out to dry.”

Potential Long-term Consequences

• [27:10] French highlights inconsistencies in the Court’s actions, suggesting that it is not merely an extension of Trump’s influence but still failing in transparency.
• [30:52] “The Supreme Court simply deciding it’s not going to explain something...”.

Light-Hearted Conclusion

Transitioning from heavy political discourse, the hosts share personal sources of joy amid the intense discussions.

Jamelle Bouie on Photography

• [31:23] “I bought a new camera... It’s a Mamiya 6. It was first manufactured in 1989... I love it.”

David French on Television Shows

• [32:14] “I have two recommendations... 'Department Q' and 'Poker Face'... It's a delight.”

Michelle Cottle on Summer in Washington

• [33:40] “No matter how ugly it gets on the political scene, people still come to the nation’s capital... It just made me feel a little bit better about the state of the country.”

Conclusion

In this episode, The Opinions navigates the complex landscape of current political upheavals, dissecting the internal fractures within the MAGA movement triggered by the Epstein investigation and examining the far-reaching implications of the Supreme Court's controversial decision to empower President Trump to dismantle the Department of Education. Through incisive commentary and expert analysis, Michelle Cottle, alongside Jamelle Bouie and David French, provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of these pivotal events and their broader impact on American politics and governance.

Note: This summary is based on the podcast transcript provided and captures the key discussions, insights, and conclusions presented by the hosts and guests.