Podcast Summary: The Opinions – "Tom Friedman Says We’re in a New Epoch. David Brooks Has Questions."

Host: New York Times Opinion
Guests: David Brooks & Thomas L. Friedman
Date: December 12, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Times columnists Thomas L. Friedman and David Brooks engage in a wide-ranging, dynamic conversation exploring Friedman's assertion that we are living in a new historical epoch—the “Polycene.” They debate the driving forces shaping the contemporary world, including technology, culture, power dynamics, and the quest for identity and home. Together, they probe the roots of today’s turbulence, the challenges of AI, governance in a fragmented landscape, and the ways societies might build unity as polarization intensifies.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Worldviews: Technology vs. Culture (00:49–07:31)

• David Brooks characterizes their differences: “You would be more technology first and I would probably be more culture first.” (02:27)
• Friedman rejects being a naïve technophile, clarifying: “What the book wasn’t about is what people would do on that platform, driven by culture or politics or something else... My real framework is that it’s a tension between the two.” (03:19)
• They agree that both the impact of technology and the cultural (including reactionary) responses it triggers are essential lenses for understanding global change.

Notable Moment:
Friedman likens the balance to “the Lexus and the olive tree”—globalization vs. cultural anchors. He stresses technology creates platforms for change, but the results are mediated by culture and politics.

2. Introducing “The Polycene” Epoch (07:40–11:05)

• Friedman describes how conversations with experts on AI and climate led him to synthesize the concept: “My friend Craig Mundy from Microsoft... explained to me that the goal of AI was polymathic Artificial General Intelligence.” (07:58)
• He observes the era’s complexity, touching on:
  • Polymathic capabilities (AI spanning many fields)
  • Polycrisis (multiple, simultaneous crises interconnected)
  • Diplomacy’s new complexity (from Cold War simplicity to today’s Rubik’s Cube geopolitics).
• The “Polycene” is characterized by multiplicity, fluidity, and the shattering of binaries (race, gender, identity).

Quote:
“Kissinger... needed three dimes. Kissinger, airplane, three months—Kissinger magic. Fast forward 50 years... Tony Blinken wasn’t playing tic tac toe. He had a Rubik’s Cube.” (09:08–10:08)

3. Is Today Really More Complex—Or Just Different? (11:05–14:02)

• Brooks challenges whether the past was ever simple: “It’s easy to think the past was simple, but it wasn’t that simple.” (12:14)
• He suggests that history has always been sharded and complex—Queen Elizabeth’s and Metternich’s eras were hardly binary.
• Friedman pushes back: Individual empowerment and instant global connectivity are unprecedented today. “Each individual now has a tool to express their voice and power like never before, and we’re all connected.” (13:24)

4. Historical Tides and the Current Moment (14:02–15:41)

• Brooks lays out successive broad “tides”: democratic revolution, totalitarianism, liberalism, and now the “global populist tide,” driven by backlash against elites and loss of belonging.
• He frames it as a cultural and class revolt: “A rejection of elites, a loss of faith in societies, and a sense that a lot of people feel they’re not respected.” (15:15)

5. The Third American Civil War: Home, Humiliation, Dignity (15:41–19:30)

• Friedman: “The two most powerful emotions driving human beings are humiliation and dignity... The second... is home.” (15:43)
• He identifies America’s three “civil wars,” each focused on who gets to belong and “feel at home.”
  • Now it’s over race (changing demographics), pace (rapid change, tech and economic dislocation), and price (affordability and economic security).
• Across the world, nationalist leaders succeed by mobilizing anxieties around these themes. Friedman: “Donald Trump... says, I have a metaphor that can cut across all three... I’m gonna build a wall against those people who don’t make you feel at home...” (18:36)

Quote:
“Our civil war right now... is about identity, belonging, and a place called home. And I think it’s going on all over the world.” (17:36)

6. Bridging the Divide: Listening and Respect (19:30–21:17)

• Brooks asks: “How do we not make it seem like they’re the backward, primitive, intransigent ones and we’re the modern, enlightened, pluralistic ones?” (19:43)
• Friedman responds with humility and empathy: “My secret for survival was to learn to be a good listener... Listening is a sign of respect.” (20:10)
• Deep listening builds trust, even across deep divides.

Memorable Quote:
“In any conversation, respect is like air. When it’s present, nobody notices. When it’s absent, all anybody can think about.”
—David Brooks, quoting Joseph Grenny (21:33)

7. AI: Epochal Change or Overhyped? (21:33–24:42)

• Brooks: Is AI really as revolutionary as hyped, or just another tool?
• Friedman: It’s transformative, ushering in the “age of vapor”:
  • Age of Ice (humans far apart), to Water (information flows), to Vapor (AI everywhere, in every object and transaction).
  • The core question: Can society keep the best of AI while cushioning its worst, especially regarding trust and ethical use?
• Even as technology disrupts, “it always comes back to these core principles... again, it comes back to Sunday school.” (23:58)

Notable Analogy:
“Very soon, AI is going to go into everything... That’s why I spend a lot of time trying to understand it.” (22:25)

8. Spiritual Depth and Fragility in the Vapor Age (24:10–25:56)

• Brooks raises the fear that constant change (all solidity melting into air) undermines the psychological foundations for living a meaningful life.
• Friedman tells a story about being asked, “Is God in cyberspace?” (24:42) and quotes his rabbi: It’s up to us to bring values—even godliness—into our new technological spaces: “If we want God to be in cyberspace... we have to bring him there by how we behave there.” (25:50)
• The ultimate answer to disruption is ethical grounding: “You’re right back at Sunday school.”

9. Governance for the Polycene Era (25:56–29:21)

• Brooks observes that both moderate left and center-right political visions appear weak globally, asking: “How do people like us envision government in the age of the Polycene?” (26:13)
• Friedman: Interdependence is now the human condition. Every major challenge (AI, climate, nukes) is planetary; every solution must also be. “We are either gonna build healthy interdependencies and rise together, or... fall together. But baby, whatever we’re doing... we’re doing it together.” (26:32)
  • Leaders should promote “common sense and common purpose,” unity, and the public good.
• Friedman is a “both/and” person: “I’m for a really high wall with a big gate… better police, more police… growing the pie, redividing the pie.” (28:34)
  • The future belongs to leaders focused on synthesis, not division.

Quote:
“My favorite word is public... schools, libraries, parks, service, health, places... The hidden secret in America is how much people do not like what Donald Trump is doing in tearing us apart.” (27:57)

10. Pluralism, Tradeoffs, and Hope (29:21–31:11)

• Brooks invokes Isaiah Berlin: “There are inevitably tensions and tradeoffs... between liberty and equality, between freedom and order.” (29:37)
  • Some tradeoffs simply cannot be both/and—societies must dial between poles.
• Friedman: “I think that is both/and... We’re not going to stay out in the far right or far left.” (30:05)
• On whether America will get out of this polarized moment:
  • “Every morning now I get up and I say, today’s the day I write the column, folks, we’re not going to make it.” (30:15)
  • He watches the resilience of core institutions closely, quoting a former Republican president: “We can survive anything, David, as long as our institutions survive basically intact.” (31:06)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “You would be more technology first and I would probably be more culture first.”
  — David Brooks (02:27)

• “My real framework is that it’s a tension between the two.”
  — Thomas Friedman (03:19)

• “Kissinger wasn’t playing tic tac toe. He had a Rubik’s Cube.”
  — Thomas Friedman (09:45)

• “Our civil war right now, our third civil war, I believe, is about identity, belonging, and a place called home.”
  — Thomas Friedman (17:36)

• “Listening is a sign of respect. And what I learned was if I just listened to people... it was amazing what they would let me say to and about them.”
  — Thomas Friedman (20:10)

• “Respect is like air. When it’s present, nobody notices. When it’s absent, all anybody can think about.”
  — David Brooks, quoting Joseph Grenny (21:33)

• “Very soon, AI is going to go into everything... your glasses, your watch, your toaster, your refrigerator, your car, your microphone, this chair.”
  — Thomas Friedman (22:25)

• “If we want God to be in cyberspace, if we want God to be present, we have to bring him there by how we behave there. You’re right back at Sunday school.”
  — Thomas Friedman (25:50)

• “We are either gonna build healthy interdependencies and rise together, or we’re gonna build unhealthy interdependencies and fall together. But baby, whatever we’re doing going forward, we’re doing it together.”
  — Thomas Friedman (26:32)

• “My favorite word is public... The hidden secret in America today is how much people do not like what Donald Trump is doing in tearing us apart.”
  — Thomas Friedman (27:57)

• “There are inevitably tensions and tradeoffs... between liberty and equality, between freedom and order, between cultural coherence and diversity.”
  — David Brooks (29:37)

• “We can survive anything, David, as long as our institutions survive basically intact.”
  — Thomas Friedman, quoting a former Republican president (31:06)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:49 – Worldviews: Tech vs. Culture
• 07:40 – The Polycene: Multiplicity and Complexity
• 11:05 – Is Today Really Different? Revisiting History
• 14:02 – Historical Tides and Populism
• 15:41 – The Third Civil War: Belonging and Home
• 19:30 – Bridging the Divide: Real Listening and Respect
• 21:33 – The Ethics and Scale of AI
• 24:10 – Spiritual Depth in a Connected Age
• 25:56 – Governance and Common Purpose in the Polycene
• 29:21 – Pluralism, Trade-Offs, and Institutional Survival
• 31:11 – Closing Reflections on Optimism, Institutions, and What’s Next

Tone and Takeaway

Cerebral yet accessible, the conversation is laced with humor, humility, and a sense of urgency. Both Friedman and Brooks model thoughtful disagreement and come to a series of hard-won syntheses: that dignity and belonging are core drivers of turbulence, technology and culture shape each other, and that the path forward in the Polycene epoch demands deep listening, common purpose, and the defense of institutions. The core message is neither complacent nor despairing—rather, it’s a call for ethical seriousness and civic unity in an age of connected complexity.