Podcast Summary: The Opinions

Episode: "Trump Has a Religion. What Do Democrats Have?"

Date: October 23, 2025
Host: Robert Siegel
Guests: David Brooks (Columnist, NYT), E.J. Dionne (Contributing Opinion Writer)

Episode Overview

This episode tackles the question: As Donald Trump’s movement increasingly shapes itself into a cultural phenomenon—almost a religion—what, if anything, does the Democratic Party offer as a countervailing narrative? The discussion, led by Robert Siegel with guests David Brooks and E.J. Dionne, explores the state of American protest movements, Democratic Party strategy, elections, economic anxieties, and shifting political culture in the Trump era.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “No Kings” Protest Movement

[01:06–05:41]

• Patriotic Symbolism & Motivation

  • E.J. Dionne describes the “No Kings” protest in D.C. as deeply patriotic, “a Middle American march,” with the American flag as the dominant symbol. He condemns Speaker Mike Johnson referring to it as a “Hate America rally,” calling that attitude fundamentally un-American.
  • Dionne stresses these were not ideological rallies, but events demonstrating a profound anxiety about authoritarian drift:

    “They were just. Just deeply concerned about the direction of the country.” (D, 02:51)

• Movement Structure, Leadership, and Vision

  • David Brooks lauds the protest’s inclusiveness, stating “people like me, who are kind of center right, would feel completely at home there.” However, he notes shortcomings:
    • The movement is decentralized and lacks unified leadership, which he sees as a historical necessity for effective change (drawing on the Civil Rights movement as an example).
    • The movement also lacks a clear, compelling vision—a “counterculture” to Trumpism’s core story and sense of community.

    “Trump is a culture. He has a core story. The elites have betrayed you…He has a religion. ... It takes a counterculture to best the culture that Donald Trump is leading. And so far the Democrats don't have that.” (A, 05:15)

2. The Struggle for a True Democratic Narrative

[05:41–11:01]

• E.J. Dionne disputes claims that anti-Trump forces are passive, citing the growth of protest and forms of institutional resistance. But he details a fundamental challenge:

  • Facing an administration and institutions “willing to break the law as freely” as never before, people are struggling against an unprecedented level of partisan control in government.
  • The need for rural organizing and pressuring Republicans is urgent for democracy’s restoration.

• Brooks criticizes Democratic passivity among elites, referencing a European perspective:

  “It's not cuz you elected Trump. … It's because you didn't rise up.” (A, 07:24)

• What is the No Kings Movement’s agenda?

  • Siegel wonders about tangible policy aims, comparing it to the clarity of the Civil Rights movement.

  • Brooks reframes the fight as a deep cultural and intellectual contest against a well-established right-wing philosophy, invoking historical roots (e.g., Sam Francis, Christopher Lasch).

    “What I think Democrats need to do is understand that they can't go back to their narratives, their core narratives. ... the Democratic Party is going to change just as much as the Republican Party.” (A, 10:17)

3. November Elections & Democratic Strategy

[11:01–18:14]

• Democratic Elitism and Class Politics

  • Brooks views the Democratic Party as increasingly becoming the “party of rich people,” with candidates like Mamnani appealing more to affluent, educated elites than working-class voters.

  • Dionne rebuts, highlighting Mamnani’s focus on affordability and economic hardship (“sewer socialism”) rather than cultural progressivism:

    “He has run an economically based campaign to say New York should be affordable to everybody.” (D, 14:18)

• Urban Housing Crisis

  • Debate over the roots of NYC’s housing woes: Brooks blames regulation and zoning, referencing Jane Jacobs and today’s “abundance” movement, while noting skepticism that an “ideological” leader will loosen intervention.

  • Dionne notes that even progressive candidates acknowledge the need for abundance and efficient government, citing Mamnani’s alignment (in an interview with Derek Thompson) with some abundance principles.

4. Gerrymandering & Redistricting: Morality vs. Realpolitik

[18:14–23:31]

• California’s Referendum

  • Dionne supports independent commissions, but, given Republican gerrymandering in Texas, sees little alternative but for Democrats in California to respond in kind—calling it a “temporary expedient."

    “...in a straight up political fight where power is at stake and where the authoritarianism we talked about ... really needs somebody to check it, winning that next fight really matters.” (D, 22:12)

• Brooks’ Moral Critique

  • Brooks laments the “defining deviancy down” of both parties and worries about long-term democratic health:

    “It seems to me if people want to turn the page on this moment ... they're going to want to turn the page ... somebody who plays by the rules, who will uphold the norms that I remember.” (A, 20:41)

5. Economic Anxiety and the Specter of an AI Bubble

[23:40–28:09]

• Rising Wealth Inequality

  • Dionne notes the disconnect between a booming stock market and the growing vulnerability of lower/middle-income Americans (missed car payments, inflation, etc.):

    “I don't think you can have a successful economy if the middle and the bottom are falling out.” (D, 25:25)

• Brooks on Economic Fundamentals and the AI Bubble

  • While foundational numbers look solid, Brooks highlights the dark cloud of a speculative AI investment bubble:

    “...they're just vastly overspending, as they did in the railways, as they did in the early car. We're going to have a big crash, then AI will be fine. The counterargument...AI is not like any other technology. ... It's like inventing omniscience.” (A, 26:22)

• Siegel references Professor Gita Gopinath's assessment of the potential fallout—$20 trillion in lost household wealth comparable to the .com bust of 2000.

6. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Brooks on Democratic Narrative:

  “It takes a counterculture to best the culture that Donald Trump is leading. And so far, the Democrats don't have that.” (A, 05:15)

• Dionne on Political Realism:

  “In a straight up political fight ... where the authoritarianism we talked about earlier ... really needs somebody to check it, winning that next fight really matters.” (D, 22:12)

• Brooks on Business Elites’ Passivity:

  “You can measure the amount of authoritarianism in a country by how high the price is to oppose.” (A, 08:01)

• Siegel on the grandeur of life:

  “It was a celebration of life at some of its richest moments.” (C, 29:47)

7. Closing: Joy Beyond Politics

[28:32–30:05]

The hosts end with personal notes of finding joy in hospitality (Brooks), sports and family voting (Dionne), and a grandchild’s bar mitzvah (Siegel)—affirming the value of community and connection amidst turbulent times.

Important Timestamps

• [01:36] E.J. Dionne describes “No Kings” protests as patriotic, not ideological.
• [03:27] Brooks explains why “No Kings” is different from past movements, but lacks vision.
• [07:24] Brooks tells the “European perspective” of why the US lost respect globally.
• [10:17] Brooks: Democrats need an intellectual and cultural movement, not just a policy agenda.
• [14:18] Dionne details Mamnani's “sewer socialism”—pragmatic progressivism.
• [20:41] Brooks: The moral case for “going high” in response to Republican tactics.
• [25:25] Dionne: Warning signs from missed car payments and vanishing economic security.
• [26:22] Brooks outlines the risks and possibilities of a looming AI investment bubble.
• [29:47] Siegel celebrates life’s milestones as antidotes to political angst.

Tone & Language

The dialogue is conversational and thoughtful, marked by both deep concern and occasional wit (Brooks’ Taylor Swift quip, Dionne’s “Bernie” impression, Siegel’s Yiddish “stilk felling”). The tone remains civil but urgent throughout, reflecting a deep investment in American democracy, its cultural battles, and its uncertain future.