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The Opinions
What an F.B.I. Under Patel and Bongino Might Mean for America
00:12:11
The columnist Michelle Goldberg explains how this latest appointment by President Trump could lead to a collapse of the liberal order.
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Transcript23 lines
- [00:01]
Dan Bongino
The New York Times app has all this stuff that you may not have seen.
- [00:04]
Michelle Goldberg
The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.
- [00:07]
Host/Producer
I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling.
- [00:10]
Michelle Goldberg
Click wordle or Connections and then swipe over to read today's headlines. There's an article next to a recipe.
- [00:17]
Host/Producer
Next to games and it's just easy.
- [00:20]
Michelle Goldberg
To get everything in one place.
- [00:21]
Host/Producer
This app is essential.
- [00:24]
Michelle Goldberg
The New York Times app, all of the Times all in one place. Download it now@nytimes.com.
- [00:32]
Host/Producer
This is the Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.
- [00:46]
Michelle Goldberg
I'm Michelle Goldberg and I'm an opinion columnist at the New York Times. I write about politics and culture. Unfortunately, more politics than culture these days. This week, Donald Trump announced that Dan Bongino would be deputy director of the FBI.
- [01:06]
Dan Bongino
Get ready to hear the truth about America on a show that's not immune to the facts with your host, Dan Bongino.
- [01:15]
Michelle Goldberg
So Dan Bongino is this sort of pit bull right wing commentator, a relentless defender of Trump against his pursuers in the so called deep state. He's a former Secret Service agent before that police officer who kind of cut his teeth as a talking head on Alex Jones. And of course, going from the Alex Jones show to the second highest position in the FBI is quite a journey. In between those two polls, he had a streaming show for NRA tv, a kind of online channel of the National Rifle association, and now he broadcasts on the right wing streaming site Rumble. He has no experience with the FBI except as a relentless critic of the FBI. He's alleged all sorts of dark deeds at the FBI.
- [02:19]
Dan Bongino
The FBI has been hiding a massive fake assassination plot to shut down the questioning of the 2020 election. They know it's going to come out the second cash gets sworn in and they're trying to get ahead of it now.
- [02:33]
Michelle Goldberg
I think it remains to be seen whether now that he has a tremendous amount of power in the FBI, whether he tries to substantiate these phantasms and use them as pretexts for investigations into Trump's enemies. He's also kind of laughed at the idea that there are checks and balances.
- [02:52]
Dan Bongino
Power, that is all that matters. No, it doesn't, Dan. We have a system of checks and balances. That's a good one. That's really funny. We do.
- [03:04]
Michelle Goldberg
He thinks that kind of anybody who believes in these traditional ideas of the separation of Powers and a non political bureaucratic civil service is a sucker. Historically, the people who get this role are FBI agents, people who have deep experience with the institution. It's a person who oversees day to day operations of the country's most powerful law enforcement organization. And Cash Patel, who also has no experience with this organization except as a, you know, scathing critic of it, had reportedly met with members of the FBI Agents association and privately agreed that his deputy director should continue to be a special agent, the sort of person who has always filled that role. But the choice of Pangino to be his deputy I think shows just what a bald faced lie it was. I mean, I think that if you had told people even a few months ago that Donald Trump was gonna make Dan Bongino second in command at the FBI, if you told that to Republicans, they would have accused you of Trump derangement syndrome. And so, you know, but the way Trump works is to just kind of bludgeon us with horror, absurdity, outrage until it's difficult to react. But, you know, I think that this is a pretty dystopian development. It's funny, last night, you know, Sometimes I have two kids, they're 10 and 12, and when I work at home, they like to come into my office and ask what I'm working on. And I often don't like to show them because I already really worry about the despair they're imbibing about the future of the country that I'm bringing them up in. But last night they were really insistent. They really wanted to see what I was doing. And so I showed them this clip of Dan Bongino.
- [05:14]
Dan Bongino
So I got three fingers up. For those of you listen on audio only, why do I have three fingers up? Any ideas?
- [05:22]
Michelle Goldberg
And this was just last month and he was kind of gloating over the angst that Trump's nominees were causing career civil servants. He was talking again and again about total personnel warfare.
- [05:33]
Dan Bongino
Everybody has to go, if you were involved in the tyranny of the last four disgusting years of Biden or the prior aid of Obama, you got to go if you said nothing.
- [05:46]
Michelle Goldberg
And then he took out these two plastic toy robots, the orange one that represented Trump and a blue one that he called liberal screaming Karen. And he used the Trump one to smash the lady blue one, like over and over and over again and said, yes, this is how we fix this.
- [06:07]
Dan Bongino
You are not going to fix shit. If we do what we did in 2016, where we change a bunch of policies and laws and then get a bunch of people in There who don't want to, who want to slow walk everything. We're not going to change shit. Trump is not around, man.
- [06:27]
Michelle Goldberg
And, you know, my son was like, oh, my God, this is both so horrifying and also so funny. I can't believe I live in this time. You know, my daughter was like, what is he, 5? And so there's just a sense of dumbstruckness, I guess. And I don't think I'm alone in feeling that. I think that that's one reason why Democrats have been kind of flat footed, you know, and have been really struggling to mount a proper response to this. I really try to ration my Hannah Arendt references because otherwise I would basically be using them in every column that I write. There is just so much in this book, the Origins of Totalitarianism, that kind of foreshadows what we see in Trump. But this quote, which I think is a pretty famous one, it was the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw that they had made Dan Bongino deputy director of the FBI. Quote, totalitarianism in power invariably replaces all first rate talents, regardless of their sympathies, with those crackpots and fools whose lack of intelligence and creativity is still the best guarantee of their loyalty. And I think that here, the regardless of their sympathies part is important because it's not as if Donald Trump could not have found somebody either deeply versed in the FBI or deeply versed in law enforcement, who was also a devotee of his right. The FBI is a very Republican organization. There's lots of, you know, sort of smoother figures, say, people who are coming out of the Claremont Institute who have, you know, authoritarian tendencies, but can dress it up in erudite rationalizations, you know, but that's not who he wanted. He wanted this jacked up hothead. And so when you look at somebody like Pete Hegseth, who, you know, even aside from his lack of qualifications, just has this completely sordid personal history, who has paid off a woman who accused him of sexual assault even though he claims that he's innocent, you know, whose own mother wrote a letter to him about his abuse of women, even though she now recants it, you know, or you look at somebody like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Who, again, you know, is a top Health and Human Services, who has this record of subverting one of the most important health interventions of the modern world, which is vaccine programs. And it's not necessarily that these people were chosen kind of in spite of their personal failings. In a way, it's their personal failings that are a sort of qualification to serve in an administration that every day, through its actions are saying that, you know, kind of none of the old standards apply, none of your old morality matters anymore. What matters now is the ability to project an image of manliness and virility and slavish loyalty to the leader. What you see is that this administration is laying the foundation for autocracy. But there's still, I think, a feeling of even though it's increasingly obvious what they're doing, there's still a feeling of either disbelief or paralysis among many Democrats. And in part, this is because, you know, the Democratic Party is full of lawyers. It's full of politicians. These are people who devoted their lives to the rules, to the understanding and application of the rules, and who are, I think, not really prepared for a world in which the rules no longer apply. And. And so we're in this kind of uncanny interregnum where we're seeing the kind of liberal democratic world that many of us grew up taking for granted. We're seeing it totter. It looks like it's going to collapse, and yet its collapse is so unimaginable that I think a lot of people are having a hard time getting their heads around it, much less developing a plan of action.
- [11:42]
Host/Producer
If you like this show, follow it on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. This show is produced by Derek Arthur, Sofia Alvarez Boyd, Vishaka Durba, Phoebe Lett, Christina Samulewski and Gillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin, Allison Bruzek and Annie Rose Strasser. Engineering, mixing and original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Saburo and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Amin Sohota. The Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta, Christina Samulewski and Adrian Rivera. The executive producer of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Dresser.