How Strongmen Like Trump Get in Your Head

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Opinions – "What Autocrats Have in Common with Abusers"

Host: The New York Times Opinion
Date: May 14, 2026
Guests: Masha Gessen (NYT Opinion columnist), Rachel Louise Snyder (contributing writer, domestic violence expert)

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores the parallels between autocratic regimes and abusive relationships. Masha Gessen and Rachel Louise Snyder discuss how mechanisms of control, psychological manipulation, isolation, and normalization of violence operate both in domestic violence situations and under autocratic governments. Drawing on personal experiences, historical examples, and contemporary U.S. politics—particularly the Trump administration—they offer insight into how power operates to silence, control, and traumatize individuals and societies. The episode ends on a hopeful note, suggesting collective resistance and dialogue as tools for change.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Origins of Expertise: Snyder’s Path into Domestic Violence Reporting

[02:14 – 04:16]

• Rachel recounts her early reporting days and her initial blindness to the prevalence of domestic violence, despite covering gender-based violence worldwide.
• A pivotal conversation with a domestic violence agency worker led her to recognize the need to study and discuss domestic violence more openly.

"In some ways my career ever since that day has been an attempt to pull off my own blinders, to say, wow, this is something we need to talk about, we need to study." – Rachel Louise Snyder [03:51]

---

2. Mechanisms of Control in Autocracy and Abuse

[04:16 – 07:05]

• Gessen compares the pervasive control in the Soviet Union to the gradual, insidious control used by domestic abusers—controlling movement, work, finances, and even thoughts.
• Snyder explains that abuse often starts with seemingly protective comments and escalates to economic and social control.
• Both discuss the use of the threat of violence as a powerful tool.

"The threat of violence as sometimes more effective and certainly more ubiquitous than actual physical violence." – Rachel Louise Snyder [05:24]

• Also highlighted: the concept of victim blaming and gaslighting.

"Look what you made me do is essentially what all scholarship up until second wave feminism looked at when it came to domestic violence." – Rachel Louise Snyder [06:39]

---

3. Unstable Rewards and Unpredictability

[07:05 – 11:53]

• Abusers and autocratic leaders both use intermittent rewards (occasional gifts or allowances) to destabilize victims/citizens and foster dependency.
• Gessen recounts how totalitarian regimes set unrealistic goals or quotas, creating arbitrary rewards and punishments.
• Snyder likens this to "living on eggshells": constant vigilance, self-surveillance, and internalization of the abuser's expectations.

"Your own sense of your humanity collapses in on itself... the abuser has taken up residence inside your own mind." – Rachel Louise Snyder [11:31]

---

4. Isolation and 'Collective Hostage Taking'

[11:53 – 17:55]

• Both autocracies and abusers isolate their subjects, making them believe alternatives are impossible or non-existent.
• Gessen shares how the Soviet regime made foreign information illegal, fostering a belief in national superiority.
• Snyder equates this to domestic situations, describing victims as "passive hostages."
• Gessen introduces the idea of "collective hostage taking" (Yuri Lyvada): entire communities become complicit or are threatened with collective punishment.
• The discussion extends to how bystanders, family members, and even helpers can become enmeshed in the web of control—with victims blamed for violence against their children or communities held accountable for dissent.

---

5. Low-Level Dread and Its Consequences

[18:33 – 22:09]

• The psychological hallmark for both forms of oppression is "low-level dread"—a chronic, underlying anxiety that still allows daily function but hinders creativity, social connection, and future planning.

"Somebody who lives in a state of low-level dread can go to work... But you always have that, you know, as you said, the abuser has taken up residence in their brain." – Masha Gessen [19:23]

• Snyder relates a practical example: how providing immediate support ("go bags") helps victims make clearer long-term decisions.

---

6. “Why Don’t They Just Leave?”: The Realities of Escaping Abuse or Autocracy

[21:01 – 24:04]

• Snyder highlights the enduring question faced by abuse victims and the immense practical, psychological, and bureaucratic barriers to leaving.
• Gessen draws a powerful analogy between fleeing an abusive relationship and emigrating from a totalitarian state—both require major upheaval, learning new ways of living, and overcoming intense isolation and uncertainty.

"It's almost like having to learn a new language. Right. And certainly it is like immigration, like learning to live anew." – Masha Gessen [22:32]

---

7. The Trump Administration: Where Gender-Based Violence and Autocracy Collide

[24:06 – 29:48]

• Both discuss allegations of sexual abuse against numerous Trump administration officials and a culture of shamelessness and even, at times, pride in abusive behavior.
• Snyder: The normalization and rise of domestic violence, increased homicides, and the normalization of coercive control.

"It normalizes abuse. It normalizes, certainly normalizes, emotional abuse and coercive control." – Rachel Louise Snyder [25:44]

• Broader glorification of “male violence” and bullying is tied to both patriarchal tradition and totalitarian mobilization.
• Gessen: Totalitarian societies herald violence as unifying—a nation built on being mobilized against enemies, externally and internally.

---

8. Hopeful Strategies: Community, Dialogue, and Naming the Truth

[29:48 – 34:22]

• Despite the grim landscape, both find hope in conversations, community support, and calling things by their real names.
• Snyder references intellectual Judith Herman on the power of ending silence about abuse.

"The silence of women gives license to every form of sexual and domestic exploitation... The recipe is very simple. We have to talk about it, and we have to allow each other the space to recognize what it is." – Rachel Louise Snyder [31:21]

• Gessen and Snyder point to resistance in Minneapolis as a model—community mutual aid networks and naming the situation for what it is fostered powerful collective action.
• Return to historical consciousness-raising groups as an inspiration for today.

"Here's the recipe. Talk to one another. Call things by their proper names." – Masha Gessen [34:07]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Victim Blaming and Gaslighting:
  "Look what you made me do is essentially what all scholarship up until second wave feminism looked at when it came to domestic violence." – Rachel Louise Snyder [06:39]

• Living in Perpetual Instability:
  "Your own sense of your humanity collapses in on itself... the abuser has taken up residence inside your own mind." – Rachel Louise Snyder [11:31]

• Isolation as a Control Tactic:
  "We thought that there could be no alternative... there was no alternative to the life as it was..." – Masha Gessen [12:14]

• On the Difficulty of Leaving:
  "It's almost like having to learn a new language. Right. And certainly it is like immigration, like learning to live anew." – Masha Gessen [22:32]

• Normalization of Violence in Politics:
  "There's almost a pride about it... it normalizes, certainly normalizes, emotional abuse and coercive control." – Rachel Louise Snyder [25:34]

• Hopeful Strategy:
  "Talk to one another. Call things by their proper names... and help one another." – Masha Gessen [34:13]

---

Important Timestamps

• Rachel's origin story in DV reporting: [02:14 – 04:16]
• Control in autocracy vs. abuse: [04:16 – 07:05]
• Spectacle/threat of violence: [05:38 – 06:39]
• Unstable rewards/quota systems: [07:05 – 10:13]
• 'Living on eggshells,' enforced self-surveillance: [10:27 – 11:53]
• Isolation as both state policy and abuse tactic: [11:53 – 14:41]
• 'Collective hostage taking' and blame: [13:24 – 17:55]
• Low-level dread and psychological effects: [18:33 – 20:59]
• "Why didn't they just leave?" and the immigrant analogy: [21:01 – 24:04]
• Trump era and normalization of abuse: [24:06 – 29:48]
• Hopeful conclusion: Naming, community, resistance: [29:48 – 34:22]

---

Takeaways

• Control, unpredictability, isolation, and dread are shared tools of autocrats and abusers.
• Both structural and psychological barriers make escaping these dynamics profoundly difficult.
• Naming abuses, building community, and collective action—modeled in grassroots resistance—are vital responses.
• Open dialogue, mutual support, and organizing are highlighted as not just possible, but necessary, routes to push back against both personal and political forms of oppression.

---

Summary by The Opinions, The New York Times Opinion

Transcript

[Instacart Narrator]

Instacart makes grocery shopping easier. And just because you're not doing the shopping yourself doesn't mean you don't care how it's done. With Instacart Shopper notes, you can get particular about what you want right in the app, like rotisserie chicken that's extra crispy steak with marbling the Romans would have loved, and lettuce you'd actually pick yourself. Just leave a note for your shopper so they can get it right for you without having to ask. That way you you can get groceries just how you like. Download the Instacart app and shop today.

[Podcast Host]

This is the Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.

[Masha Gessen]

I am M. Gessen, an opinion columnist at the New York Times. I often write about autocracy and what it's like to live under a totalitarian government. I spent my childhood in Russia and later went back as an adult and reporter from the country through the rise of Vladimir Putin. Now in the United States, I often write about what's happening during the Trump presidency. So I've been writing about autocrats and aspiring autocrats for most of my professional life. I often find myself thinking about a lecture I happened to listen to several years ago. It was a talk by a psychologist about a completely different domestic violence. As she talked about the way abusers control their victims, I kept noticing how much overlap there is between that experience and what happens to people under autocratic governments. And then as I looked into the subject more, I realized that this was not a coincidence. For one thing, the study of trauma suffered by totalitarian subjects has informed the study of trauma in victims of domestic violence. I wanted to talk about it with a friend and a colleague of mine, Rachel Louise Snyder. Rachel is a contributing writer at Times Opinion who often covers domestic violence and she's helped me think through this connection between violence against women and autocracy. Thanks for being here, Rachel.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Thanks for having me.

[Masha Gessen]

Before we get to the meat of the conversation, can you talk to me about how you got into your area of expertise?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

I can. You know, it's a funny. It's sort of a funny answer. I had been sort of a baby journalist and I lived overseas. I lived in London for a couple of years. I lived in Cambodia for a long time, six years. And I had traveled to like 60, 65 countries. And I did stories of gender based violence in all those countries. Stories of, you know, child marriage, trafficking, all this sort of Darkness and domestic violence was in all of those stories. But I was so young and naive that I would be like, but that's not my story. So I'm not going to ask this young 12 year old married Roma girl about the violence in her house. And it wasn't until I moved back to America in 2009, I was standing on the driveway of a friend of mine, my dear friend, the writer Andrew, whose sister Suzanne works for a domestic violence agency. And she drove up, he introduced us, I did that very American thing like, oh, what do you do? You know? And she said, oh, I work for a domestic violence agency. So I thought, oh, like, you have a shelter? And she was like, well, we do, but that's not primarily what we do. What we actually do is we have looked at the research to determine the highest risk indicators of domestic violence homicide in order to prevent it. So we basically predict domestic violence homicide. And I was like, you do what now? Like, this is a crime that happens behind closed doors. This is a crime that I, as a journalist with all of the privileges that came, you know, I'm a white journalist, I'm traveling the world, I have education, I was blind to it. And in some ways my career ever since that day has been an attempt to pull off my own blinders, to say, wow, this is something we need to talk about, we need to study. And so that's what I've done ever since that. That day.

[Masha Gessen]

So let's try to unpack some things. And I want to start by talking about control and mechanisms of control. And I'm just gonna go through a list, right, of things that stood out to me when I first started thinking about the overlap. And I wanna get your reaction. So, growing up in the Soviet Union, I was used to seemingly every aspect of our lives being controlled. The state decided who could live in which city, which building, which apartment, where you would work after university, whether you could travel even inside the country. How does that relate to what happens in domestic abuse?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah, I mean, that's one of the primary questions, really. Abusers will start slowly. They'll talk about clothing, they'll talk about makeup. They'll say things like, mm, you know, I see the way men look at you when you wear that short skirt. And so I don't think you should wear that. Right. So it's a sort of couched in this protectionism. And they'll chip away at attachments to meaningful things or people. And eventually you'll see somebody control money and work and how much a victim interacts with Friends or family. And you'll see the threat of violence as sometimes more effective and certainly more ubiquitous than actual physical violence.

[Masha Gessen]

Yeah. The threat of violence as we get more into talking about the Trump administration. Right. Just the amount of violence that we are witnessing now, given that this is a very violent society and has been for a long time. Right. But the spectacle of violence, ice and political violence taken together, I think it has transported us into a different space where the threat of violence feels much more sort of palpable to many more people.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah. Also, it is in the language that people in this administration are using. Right. It is in Trump sort of saying, well, Iran, you know, they better do the right thing. So there's an implicit threat there of violence, but there's also, you know, to connect it to domestic violence. It's also absolutely victim blaming and gaslighting.

[Masha Gessen]

Right. It's the. Look what you made me do.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Totally. I mean, look what you made me do is essentially what all scholarship up until second wave feminism looked at when it came to domestic violence. Right. Like, you know, well, he wouldn't hurt her if she didn't bring it on herself. Right. If she could just act a certain way, be obedient a certain way. And we'll save this for another day. But it's also part of the trad wife conversations that are happening today. But, you know, I'll put a pin in that one.

[Masha Gessen]

All right. Okay. Pins in place. Let's go to number two in my list. A special relationship. Right. So the domestic abuser convinces his victim that no one can understand the special love bond between them. And don't you think an autocratic leader does something similar? I'm turning the tables on you here. Right?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

You are. You are. I'm like, well, do autocratic leaders give intermittent rewards? I bet they do.

[Masha Gessen]

Yeah, they do. They do. Absolutely.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Do you see what I did? I turned the tables right back on you right there.

[Masha Gessen]

Well, well done, Rachel.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Thank you. Thank you. No, I think that's at least from a domestic violence perspective. And trafficking is the same way, you know, sex trafficking or even labor trafficking. Actually, the. The what undergirds all of them is how complicated these relationship, because victims will get these intermittent rewards. You know, they'll get gifts. They'll sometimes get the gift of attention or time. And then, of course, they have a violent episode and the cycle continues. So you're destabilizing the relationship, but you're also forcing that person into a state of dependency and often gratitude. Right. Like, oh, my gosh, this person has fed me Today, Right. Withholding food or withholding sleep is common. I'm interested. Actually, I want to ask you how that works in an. Okay, we're going to get back to your list, but how does that work in an autocratic society?

[Masha Gessen]

So one thing, and I think this is a key similarity actually between gender based violence and particularly human trafficking and totalitarian societies is totalitarian leaders often set unrealistic goals for the people. Right. So for example, in the Soviet Union there were these labor quotas and they were completely insane. And especially in the early 20th century, they would set these quotas and then there would be like one factory worker somewhere in the country who was able to meet those quotas. But then it would turn out like that the whole factory was working to falsify this person being able to meet the quota. Right. So you don't meet the unrealistic quota. Most people can't. And they don't know whether they're going to be penalized for not meeting it or spared or rewarded for their factory performing better than the other factory. Right. And so you're always working on something where you can't fulfill the expectation. Right. You're at the mercy of the regime or its representatives who are the factory directors or whoever they are. Right. So they can, if they paid you, it was like you're grateful. If they didn't report you for not filling your quota, you're grateful. But you may also be penalized for not fulfilling your quota.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Right.

[Masha Gessen]

So that actually gets me to unpredictability and instability, which is key in a totalitarian society because you're always in some way outside the law and so you're always punishable.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Right, Right. That's absolutely. One of the key elements in domestic violence and sex trafficking is that destabilization. You're degrading. You know, I'll just be gender specific in this. Although the acknowledgement that anybody can be a victim of violence, domestic violence, but you're degrading women over time. And I think, you know, I've interviewed at this point, I don't know, probably thousands of domestic violence victims. And they often use that phrase, that cliche, living on eggshells. And when you really live on eggshells, your own sense of your humanity collapses in on itself. By which I mean you don't see yourself in relation to others anymore. You're really isolated. And so you check your own behavior. The abuser has taken up residence inside your own mind. Right. And so you know, you know, for example, that you've gotta have dinner on the table at 6 and have the kids toys cleaned up. And then, you know, the abuser comes home and the goalposts are moved. It's no longer dinner at 6. It's that you made chicken and you were supposed to make steak. Right. And so there is this constant sense of like, what am I supposed to do? At the same time as, you know, you can read in somebody's body language, their mood, somebody that you know really well. It's one of the things that actually makes domestic violence different from other crimes, like stranger crimes.

[Masha Gessen]

Right. And so the next thing on my list is isolation.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah.

[Masha Gessen]

Which you've already referenced. But when I was a kid, we lived behind the Iron Curtain and like, getting books from abroad or listening to foreign radio was illegal. And we thought that there could be no alternative. Even we, like I grew up in a dissident family, and we thought that there was no alternative to the life as it was in the Soviet Union. But there were a lot of people who actually truly believed that they lived in the best country on earth.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Wow. Yeah, that's so interesting. Isolation is really one of the first things you see in domestic violence victims situations. They get isolated from friends, from family. And I said earlier that the abuser takes up residence in their mind. It's why you can see somebody, you know, walking around running errands, and still they are, as one advocate put it, passive hostages because they are convinced that all the systems that might be in place to help them, if they're even aware of those systems, are not gonna be as powerful as that abuser. And so I think one way to think about it is to think of them as living in a kind of a state of solitary confinement, except a

[Masha Gessen]

lot of the time it's not solitary. And I'm mentioning that because you used the word hostage. And actually that analysis was very helpful for me. When I was writing about the Soviet period in Russian history, there was a Russian sociologist named Yuri Lyvada who coined this term collective hostage taking. And what he was describing was this mechanism of horizontal enforcement, basically, where let's say if somebody was arrested for supposed anti Soviet activity, everybody they socialized with, their whole family, their co workers might be punished, wouldn't necessarily be punished, but could be punished for not having been alert enough to this person becoming anti Soviet. And so the threat of bringing punishment, bringing violence onto the people you care about, either because you work with them and because you live with them and you love them, was enough to keep most people in line. Right. Which makes me think of women who Worry about bringing violence onto their children or onto the other people they love.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting. I was listening to you, and I was thinking, well, this might be one of the ways that domestic violence is different. Right. Because victims are really isolated. But you're right, they. The threat of violence to a family. And we see that all the time. Bystanders being killed. If you think about famous mass shootings in this country, like the Texas Tower shooting in the 60s, people forget that he started the night before by killing his mother and killing his wife or Sandy Hook. Right. He started by killing his mother. So there is a danger to others. And one of the interesting things about domestic violence, actually, I'm interested in how this works in your research. If it does, if there's a parallel, you see victims being blamed for the violence against their children. So an abuser says, you know, if you don't get home right away, I'm gonna kill the kids. Right. Kids are often used as leverage. And then if he actually does kill the kids, she is often slapped with failure to protect a homicide charge. Is there a parallel or is it what you were talking about with, like, the neighbors will get, you know, scooped up and blamed and.

[Masha Gessen]

Yeah, I think there is a peril, not in terms of criminal punishment, but in terms of societal understanding. Right. Which what in this country, I think the criminal punishment expresses. Right. That the mother didn't take good enough care if the kids were killed. Right. And the social understanding in a totalitarian country is very often, yeah, if this person got himself or herself jailed and brought punishment onto their co workers, then they were being irresponsible. Or if I certainly heard it as a kid about dissidents. Right. How could this mother get herself arrested? Doesn't she care about her children?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Oh, my gosh. Really?

[Masha Gessen]

You know?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah. Wow.

[Masha Gessen]

And it's like for somebody that we in this country now think of as. As a hero for standing up against the regime, but that's. That's not the social milieu. But I want to stay with this topic of collective hostage taking for a second, because I actually think that we in this country have witnessed a milder form of it, but we certainly have witnessed it, right. When we see, say, university presidents or even heads of law firms saying, I'm just trying to protect people's jobs or, I'm trying to protect my students and our funding and whatever university presidents are trying to protect, I take those statements with a huge, giant grain of salt. Except I think that that's probably an expression of something these people are Feeling. Right. They're feeling this huge burden of responsibility for other people and an enormous threat to being able to stay responsible for these people's livelihood. Right.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

What do you take it with a grain of salt? Because there's obviously some self serving reasons for someone to fall into line, but why do you take it with a grain of salt?

[Masha Gessen]

That's a great question. I think I take it with a grain of salt because focusing on that value of protecting people's jobs, say in a university setting, requires ignoring all these other values that a university administrator is supposed to uphold.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Right, right.

[Masha Gessen]

Like academic freedom.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Right, right.

[Masha Gessen]

So that's why I take that sort of statement of motivation as with a grain of salt. So getting back to my list, probably the most important thing that I think ties these kinds of control together is the psychological effect. And I've heard it described as low level dread, which is distinct from a state of high anxiety. Right. In high anxiety you're really unable to function. But somebody who lives in a state of low level dread can go to work, can do the grocery shopping, can prepare lunch for their kids, and at the same time they always have that, you know, as you said, the abuser has taken up residence in their brain or the totalitarian leader has. The regime has taken up resonance in their brain and there isn't room there in the state of low level dread for acting creatively, for forming meaningful social connections.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah.

[Masha Gessen]

And most important, I think for planning for the future.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yes, absolutely. That is. That so resonates with my experience of domestic violence victims. When they are in that state of dread, as you put it, they can't make meaningful decisions around, for example, you know, breaking free. In fact, there's a organization in dc, DC Safe that told me years ago when I was researching my book that they realized in a moment of crisis, like say there's a violent moment and the police are called and the police are there and they're getting a woman and her children to shelter, that if they could just provide a go bag for that family that had like 24 hours of supplies in it, that had like a grocery card for food, that had some diapers, that had maybe some baby formula, just really basic. They found that victims of domestic violence were able to make much better long term decisions just by having all the things that can come from that moment of crisis taking care of that for them in that moment.

[Masha Gessen]

So what's happening there? Is it that their basic needs are met for a minute and they can think of something else?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah, yeah.

[Masha Gessen]

Or that they feel taken care of for a minute.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah. You know, it actually makes me think. And I thought of this. I mean, I've thought of this really, in every trial I've ever covered when it comes to domestic viol. But it makes me think of probably the most common question that I get asked as someone who covers domestic violence is why didn't they just leave? And it's really difficult to explain to a judge or police officer why you can't just leave. Right. The bureaucratic hurdles, the financial hurdles, the manipulation. But I don't think we ever actually ask that of citizens of autocracy. I wonder if you see a parallel there.

[Masha Gessen]

I think there's a peril in the actual difficulty of leaving. And maybe talking through it will be a little illuminating. Imagine what it's like to leave a country. Right. The bureaucratic hurdles, the logistics of it, the expense of it. Again, we've talked about the inability to plan for the future if you're isolated in a totalitarian country. How do you even imagine what it will be like to live somewhere else, to have your circumstances change?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah.

[Masha Gessen]

Right. It's not actually dissimilar, Right. From the situation of somebody who has been isolated at home, who's been entirely focused on surviving in this situation. It's almost like having to learn a new language. Right. And certainly it is like immigration, like learning to live anew. And I think people do understand that about the subjects of totalitarian countries. Like, they understand how hard it is, and I think they also have more compassion just for how hard it is to leave your home. Like people hope to the last to be able to just stay at home in a place that maybe they once loved and are hoping to love again.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah. And certainly among people they love. But, you know, it's interesting, like, what do people in a totalitarian country imagine about living somewhere else? Especially if they're told it's the best country in the world.

[Masha Gessen]

Exactly. Well, you know, when my family was making plans to emigrate, a friend of my parents asked, as a kind of joke, but maybe not exactly a joke, he said, what evidence do we have of the existence of the West?

[Instacart Narrator]

Really?

[Masha Gessen]

Yeah.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

And like, the very truth of the United States as a place or the Western Europe, or.

[Masha Gessen]

There was no material evidence. We certainly didn't know anybody personally.

[Instacart Narrator]

But didn't you have.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

I thought Levi's was like a big thing on the black market.

[Masha Gessen]

Levi's were a big thing. But how do we know that it comes from this magical place that is supposed to exist? Maybe they make it, you know, in Albania And.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Oh, right, right.

[Masha Gessen]

Like we had material evidence of the existence of the Eastern Bloc, but not places farther away.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Wow. So you can't even imagine. There is a parallel there that I see with domestic violence victims. Like, how do I raise my kids? What am I gonna do? What does it look like over there? Yeah.

[Masha Gessen]

So let's try to bring this home.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Okay.

[Masha Gessen]

We've established the similarities, and now let me point out something pretty obvious, which is the autocratic ambition. Right. On the one hand, and gender based violence, on the other hand, have really come together in the Trump administration. There's the President himself accused of sexual violence by multiple women and found liable in one case. There's the Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, accused of sexual assault. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Has been accused of sexual assault. We can think back to the Kavanaugh hearings during the first Trump administration, which to me were like the first real illustration of how this movement that Donald Trump leads treats gender based violence.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah.

[Masha Gessen]

What do you think the effect of that is on us as a society?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

I knew we were gonna get around to this. We can't forget Cesar Chavez, too, most recently. Yeah.

[Masha Gessen]

I mean, I'm not trying to imply that gender based violence is limited to the right or to the Trump administration. We obviously know that it's not. You know, Eric Swalwell, the Democrat from California, is the most recent example.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Right.

[Masha Gessen]

But there's this concentration in this administration, and I would also say there's something else that's specific to this administration, which is a shamelessness about it.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah. There's almost a pride about it. And, you know, what do I think it does to us? I mean, at its most basic level, it travels, I think, through a society and it gives license to all kinds of, I'll say, bad actors in normal society. Right. And there is evidence that domestic violence is on the rise. There are a number of states where domestic violence homicides are on the rise. There's research around. You know, for a long time it was that there were three women a day killed in the U.S. now it looks like it's closer to five. I do think it gives. It normalizes abuse. It normalizes, certainly normalizes emotional abuse and coercive control. We haven't talked all that much about coercive control, but I think it's one of.

[Masha Gessen]

Can you define that?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

You know, coercive control is exactly what it sounds like. You are coercing somebody into doing things that they might not or probably would not otherwise do. And you're most often coercing them through threats of violence or through the destabilization of their reality. Right. We see this in the Trump administration. We see this. I think we all saw this in that famous meeting of Zelenskyy in the oval office, where J.D. vance just belittles him and tells him, you know, you're showing no gratitude. And I also think, and I don't know how this. If this has a parallel to authoritarianism or not, but certainly in the states, we have this glorification of what I would call gendered violence, of male violence. You know, John, Senator John McCain's whole identity was based around his own experience as victim of violence during the Vietnam War. And then you have, on the other hand, somebody like Senator Jody Ernst, who is I don't know how many years into being a senator before she talks about her own experience as a domestic violence survivor and sexual assault survivor, rape survivor. So I think male violence in this country is not something to be ashamed of, but domestic violence carries this real shame to it, and this public failure to, like, hold or acknowledge those victims of violence. I mean, do you see any connections there?

[Masha Gessen]

I do, as a matter of fact. You know, and obviously you pointed out that this isn't new, but I think it's kind of on steroids under this administration, this glorification of male violence and this posturing, this violent posturing, including, like, I even think of something like JD Vance saying that the Pope should be careful when talking about religion, you know, or Pete Hegshead the other day saying to Congress members, be careful what you say, or how dare you challenge me, the secretary of what they're now calling war defense.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

That's right. That's right.

[Masha Gessen]

The sort of be careful what you say and direct it at a totally inappropriate person is a display of that, you know, bullying, violence and totalitarian societies, which were not yet one by any means, but that's what they want to create. Right. Totalitarian societies are mobilized societies. They're societies united by having enemies and by being enemies, ready to act violently together. That's what you see in Russia, where Putin mobilized the entire country against Ukraine. And that's really when Russia became totalitarian, not just autocratic. And I think that that's the glorification of what you're calling male violence is serving that purpose. So let me bring this to what nobody listening expects, which is a somewhat hopeful conclusion.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

It's so out of character for my life.

[Masha Gessen]

I know, I know it's crazy, but I actually think that the conversation we just had offers a little bit of a way to think about what we're living through in this country right now. And maybe some recipes for action. So tell me what works in the domestic violence field?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

It's so hard for me to be positive. It's not my natural state. I mean, I do think conversations like this are so important because at the same time as our administration and our leaders might be normalizing violence, we can actually normalize conversations around caring and community outreach. I think one of the things I think about so often is in all of my interviews, and this is going 20 years now or something, domestic violence victim interviews. I have never once done an interview where a victim of domestic violence hasn't said some version of, I'm not your typical victim. To me, nobody sees themselves as. I don't even know what that means. A typical victim of domestic violence. And so one thing I think is to just talk about it. To talk about coercive control, financial control, emotional control. Right. To allow people to recognize their own victimization. One of the people I consider one of my personal heroes, Judith Herman, the great intellectual thinker Judith Herman, who says. I'm sort of paraphrasing her here, but she says to speak about experiences in sexual or domestic life is to invite public humiliation, to invite ridicule and disbelief. The silence of women gives license to every form of sexual and domestic exploitation. Exploitation. Now, that may not sound positive to you, but what it says to me is the recipe is very simple. We have to talk about it, and we have to allow each other the space to recognize what it is.

[Masha Gessen]

And I would add to this, and correct me if I'm wrong, that having connections outside of the abusive situation, having community support, having meaningful social connections is essential for somebody being able to get out from under the abuse. Right.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Absolutely essential. Yeah.

[Masha Gessen]

So that makes me think of Minneapolis. Minneapolis is the best example we have so far of people actually being able to resist the Trump administration's actions. And it was a resistance effort that changed things in the city and even changed policy, it appears in the administration. So it is by far the most successful resistance effort.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah, yeah.

[Masha Gessen]

And what I would focus on in that effort is a language that city named. What was happening. They called it an occupation. Right. They weren't calling it ICE raids. They saw what was happening to them as a very specific thing that called forth a collective effort of resistance. And the other thing that was super important to that effort were the mutual aid networks that had existed since COVID and since the George Floyd protests. Right. So they had a long history. They were well established. There were bonds of trust that were well established. And so people were able to work together, help one another, and also use the language that helped them act.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah, yeah. And it seemed like it grew organically from those established communities. And you're right, it is powerful. And also shout out to my fellow Midwesterners there. Cause we are corn fed, strong people. But yeah, Minneapolis. It makes me think of the, you know, the Gloria Steinem, like, awareness talks that she would hold in her living room throughout the, you know, 70s, 80s, and how we need to bring those back. Like we need to bring back consciousness raising. Consciousness raising. That's what it was called. You know, I'm so young that I didn't remember the.

[Masha Gessen]

I know. I'm here. I'm here to tell you. It was called consciousness raising.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Exactly. Yes, yes.

[Masha Gessen]

CR for short.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Thank you. Thank you, my friend.

[Masha Gessen]

So, yeah, here's the recipe. Talk to one another. Call things by their proper names.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Call them by their names. Yeah.

[Masha Gessen]

Call them by their names and. And help one another.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah. Kind of like what you and I do for each other.

[Masha Gessen]

Thank you, Rachel.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Thank you, Masha.

[Podcast Host]

If you like this show, follow it on YouTube, Spotify or Apple. The opinions is produced by Derek Arthur, Vishaka Darba, Victoria Chamberlain and Gillian Weinberger. It's edited by Gillian Weinberger, Jasmine Romero and Kari Pitkin. Mixing by Carol Sabaro. Original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Sabaro, Efim Shapiro and Amin Sahota. The fact check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. The head of operations is Shannon Busta. Audience support by Christina Samulewski. The director of Opinion shows is Annie Rose Strasser.