B (4:22)

And as far as the deal itself, the various provisions of the deal, you were an advisor, as I mentioned, to the plo. You've seen peace negotiations up close and you know what goes into them and you know what the result can be. What do you think about this deal?

A (4:42)

You know, Dan, there was something really troubling about this agreement. And it's the fact that Palestinians had to negotiate this agreement. It's just never been in history that people need to negotiate an end to genocide. We've had everybody from international human rights organizations to UN reports, to the International association of Genocide Scholars, to a number of genocide scholars, to the International Court of Justice saying that there's a possible case for genocide, to two Israeli human rights organizations all calling it genocide. And yet rather than there being sanctions put on Israel or an arms embargo put on Israel, we instead forced Palestinians to go down the path of negotiating. And that in and of itself is very troublesome. And we forced Palestinians to be negotiating an end to famine with the very people who have been starving them in the first place. So leaving that aside, and it's important for me to say that leaving that aside, when you look at the text of the agreement, it's so problematic because embedded in this agreement there are no guarantees that are given to Palestinians that Israel isn't going to resume this again. Remember, Israel has never abided by any agreement. They haven't abided by UN resolutions. Not having any guarantees makes it such that you're leaving Palestinians once again to negotiate with the stronger party. And it's akin to negotiating with a gun to your head. And so I would have hoped that after all of this, that instead of just pretending that these two years didn't happen, that there would have been a recognition that there was a root cause to all of this, which is the occupation. And instead there would have been a recognition that this occupation must end and sanctions put on Israel until this occupation ends. Instead, they just papered over it and pretended as though these two years didn't happen. And that's it.

B (7:08)

When you say that Palestinians are being forced to negotiate with a gun to their head, I think from the Israeli side you might hear it said, well, Hamas was the organization that launched an attack that killed 1200 innocent people. And why should Israel therefore give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to negotiating? How would you respond to that?

A (7:34)

You know, when we look at October 7, it didn't come out of a vacuum. The Israelis have lived now for decades completely ignoring Gaza and at the same time maintaining a very brutal occupation over Gaza. And that's the problem, is that there's been this brutal occupation that has been made invisible not only to Israelis, but has been made invisible also to the rest of the world. And in making it invisible, they somehow ignore the harm and dehumanize Palestinians. And there's been a lot of emphasis placed on the Israelis. But I think it's important to talk about what has been happening to Palestinians. On Monday, The Israelis released 1,700 Palestinians to Gaza. Palestinians who were hostages, Palestinians who were picked up in the aftermath of October of 2023. And they were used as bargaining chips. And by the way, there's still roughly a thousand from Gaza who remain in Israeli prisons. But if you look at the history of the ways in which Palestinians have been used, nobody ever really looks at these numbers of how many Palestinian prisoners there are and how it is that these people are never, ever released. And it's a system that just keeps going and going. And these are the nameless, the faceless that we never hear about. And my fear is that in this agreement, we're just going to go back to the way it was before. It's just going to be yet another papering over the harm that has been caused by these decades of occupation.

B (9:43)

There was a summit on Monday in Egypt, and it was focused on ending the war, bringing peace to the Middle East. Egyptian President El Sisi stated openly that he advocated for a two state solution that is a state for Israelis and a state for Palestinians in the region. But President Trump didn't mention that at all. Do you see a disconnect here between the political future of Palestinians and what President Trump and Israel see in the future?

A (10:21)

Most definitely. This 20 point plan looks like sounds like feels like an Israeli plan that was rebranded as an American plan, in fact, a Trump plan, not just an American plan. And in this American Trump plan, it doesn't mention freedom for Palestinians if Palestinians behave, if Palestinians reform. And by the way, their reform means that if the Palestinian Authority drops all of its claims in the International Criminal Court against Netanyahu and against Gallant, the Israeli Defense Minister at the time, if all of that is done to President Trump's satisfaction, then maybe we can start talking about a Palestinian state, which he acknowledges that Palestinians aspire to. That's what's written in the 20 point plan. So there's nowhere in this plan the idea of a Palestinian state, there's nowhere in this plan an end to the occupation. And one of the strangest things, Dan, for me, was seeing all of these states who just a few weeks ago announced that they were recognizing a Palestinian state, come forward to this agreement. So it left me puzzled and thinking, well, what exactly did you recognize? So it's completely off. It's completely off. And that's why I'm very worried about it. I'm very, very worried. And of course, the other thing is that in this agreement, it still leaves Israel with all of the room to decide Gaza's future. It gives Israel the ability to decide what gets into Gaza, how much gets into Gaza, and when it gets into Gaza. And over the course of the past two years, we've seen that Israel has bombed rich roughly 98% of Gaza's farmland, which means that the population of the Gaza Strip is now almost entirely dependent upon Israel for its food supply. Whether that means the quantity or the quality, it's going to be practically dependent upon Israel.

B (12:41)

I hear you that many think this is a deeply flawed agreement. But would it have been better to not reach an agreement at all and stop the killing just because these other aspects were not included?

A (12:58)

I don't think that we should be looking at it in such binary terms. I think that there was a way to stop the killing, and I think that there is a way to address the root causes. And I don't think that they addressed either, to be honest. I don't think that they have stopped the killing, particularly since we've seen over the course of the past few days that the killing has not stopped. The major bombs have stopped, but the killing has not. And I don't think that they have come up with a way. They being the United States, Israel and the rest of the international community, have come up with a way to actually end the occupation, to address the root causes. So it was neither here nor there. The only thing that they addressed was the one side of the equation, which was the Israelis, and that was it.

B (13:53)

You mentioned what appear to be empty recognitions of Palestinian statehood. Yes, that is, in the past few weeks, the uk, France, Canada, all recognized a Palestinian state. Do you think that those acts of recognition will have any future impact on things?

A (14:12)

I certainly hope so. But as somebody who was involved for such a long time, I just didn't see that their involvement ever meant anything. And let me step back and say, for many, many years, all I heard was this idea of the belief in the two state solution. And I call it the magic pill. It's like they swallowed this magic pill that everything could somehow be dismissed if you just swallow the magic pill. So the boom in settlement construction could be dismissed by swallowing the magic pill or the construction of the wall in the west bank, that can be ignored because the magic pill of the two state solution or the harm that's caused by the imprisonment of so many people that can be ignored because of the two state solution or the siege on Gaza, that can be ignored because of this magic pill of the two state solution. And that was the world that I lived in for such a long period of time that for all of those years all I heard was the two state solution. But none of these states did anything to actually bring that two state solution about. They just kept swallowing the pill, swallowing the pill, swallowing the pill. And so the idea of the recognition of the state feels the same, that they have recognized a state and it's the new magic pill. So yes, we recognize the state, but we're going to close our eyes to the continued settlement construction expansion. We're going to close our ears when one of the Israeli ministers, Smotred Minister of Finance, says that he's going to annex the west bank and is pushing for it. We're going to close our ears and eyes when we see what they're doing in Gaza because we believe in, you know, we've recognized the Palestinian state. And so this is where it feels so empty and so hollow that they just, they are not going to do anything about it. They once again have swallowed that magic pill and are going to absolve themselves of it.

B (16:29)

How does the world end? The swallowing of the magic pill. What changes that?

A (16:35)

It requires countries to finally confront Israel. They're not willing to do that, but they should. And that means everything from an arms embargo on Israel because we've seen how Israel uses its weapons. It uses it to bomb hospitals, to bomb schools, to violate international law. It means cutting off trade with Israel. It means ousting Israel from these international arenas. And it can be done, and it has been done in the past with South Africa. So it's possible. And it's possible, particularly since they've now recognized the state of Palestine. But of course, my fear is that they're not going to do that. My fear is that, okay, as we're seeing what we're seeing in Gaza, as we're watching this genocide unfold, instead of undertaking their obligations under the Genocide Convention, which is to prevent genocide or to stop genocide, instead, it's like they're going to give us a cookie by, you know, we're going to recognize you. That's my fear, Dan. That's my fear. And the recognizing Palestine as we're watching it being erased, it's just mind boggling.

B (17:54)

Let me ask you some slightly more personal question. You grew up in Canada and lived in Gaza and the west bank, and you then moved to Israel in 2010. You're one of the rare Palestinians who has lived in all three places. So you have a good perspective on the way it feels to be a Palestinian in the region and also the way it feels for the world to look upon Palestinians. Do you think the perception of the Palestinian people has changed over the course of recent years? And particularly what impact has October 7th had on that?

A (18:33)

Yes, I do think that it has changed. And the reason that I think it's changed is because back in the 90s with the Oslo agreements, I think that Palestine and Palestinians became an issue that people didn't have to think about. And then suddenly and over time, it changed. It changed. In particular, in the aftermath of October 7th. I think that we've seen a groundswell of support for Palestinians. And I think that we've finally seen that people are aware of what it's like to live under Israeli military rule. I think they've seen what it's like to live in Gaza. And I do think that public opinion is shifting.

B (19:27)

You said earlier in our conversation that you're worried about what, what this agreement means for Palestinians, but also specifically you're worried about what it means for you personally. What do you mean by this?

A (19:44)

You know, Dan, I don't even know where to begin. You know, there was a poll that came out this year, and the poll said that 82% of Israelis approved of the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, removing Palestinians from Gaza. And then the next question was, do you support the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians who hold Israeli citizenship? And the response was 56% said yes. And the younger the respondents were, the higher the percentage went up. And that does not at all surprise me, Dan. It's not at all surprising to me. And the reason that that's not at all surprising is that over time, living here, I've seen that people have shifted more and more and more to the right. And what could have been, what was, I wasn't really around. But in the 80s, a discussion about the occupation and the need to end the occupation. Now there's sort of a feeling inside Israel that it's just going to be around forever. And because it's just going to be around forever, it's just like it's part of the, you know, it's part of the state.

B (21:26)

What do you mean by it, the occupation?

A (21:29)

The Israeli occupation of the west bank and the Gaza Strip. And because the Israeli occupation of the west bank and the Gaza Strip is going to be around forever in the mindset, this was before October 7th. It became, you know, kind of easy to just ignore, ignore the fact that Israel was created through the Nakba.

B (21:59)

Tell our listeners what the Nakba was.

A (22:02)

So The Nakba is 1948 ethnic cleansing of Palestine. 75% of the Palestinian population fled or was forced out of their homeland, and hundreds of Palestinian towns and villages were wiped off the map. There were roughly 150,000 Palestinians who remained. My parents were two of them. My father's town was one of those towns that was wiped off the map and replaced with an Israeli town. And so being a Palestinian in Israel now, remember, I didn't grow up here. I'm coming in as an observer, not as somebody who was born here and lived here and raised here. So to be a Palestinian who lives in this country means to be a survivor of the Nakba. It means that you yourself were a survivor or your parents were survivors or your grandparents were survivors of the Nakba. And so as a survivor, you do things that survivors do. You learn to adapt. You learn to find a community that is yours. You sometimes learn to make yourself small and invisible. And for years and years and years, this is what this community did. It now numbers 2 million, incidentally, it's roughly 20% of the population. But they find themselves always finding coping mechanisms to. To adapt. But the Israeli state doesn't, just doesn't let them. It doesn't treat them as like just normal citizens. The Israeli state targets this community and it targets it through discriminatory laws, everything from land laws to immigration laws, et cetera. So now, when you're in the aftermath of all of this and you see these public opinion polls and the way that it's going, you just know where it's going next. You have Israeli leaders who are saying things like the only reason that you Palestinians in Israel are around is because David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, didn't finish the job in 1948. And it very much feels existential at this point. Remember, for people who lived here in the aftermath of 1948, they had to live with people who either carried out the Nakba, who were apologists for the Nakba, or denied the Nakba. And now us, we're going to be living with the people who carried out the genocide, were deniers of the genocide or apologists for it. And it's heavy. And I just, I know what's gonna come next. I know what's gonna come next.

B (25:32)

Deanna, you've painted a very bleak portrait of what it's like to be Palestinian in Israel. Do you have thoughts of leaving?

A (25:44)

You have to ask me every hour of every day. Dan, look, overall. Overall. Overall, no. Overall, no. And the reason overall no is because I keep saying this is where I'm from, this is where my grandparents are from, this is where my parents are from, my grandparents, my great grandparents, my family, all of my family is here, all of my extended family is here. And so my, my group is here, my loved ones are here. So overall no. But then there'll be certain times where I think, you know, my son, I have a 11 year old boy and I worry, I worry all the time because I worry about what it's going to be like for him because I remember my late father telling me about what it was like for him in the aftermath of the Nakba. My father was 9 years old during the Nakba. My son was 9 in October of 2023. And so I'm always thinking about the similarities and I'm always thinking about just what's it going to be like for him? What world is he going to be living in? How's it going to be for him when he gets older?

B (27:07)

So I guess here's the point where we ask the obligatory question, what gives you hope? It seems like it's not really an appropriate question right now, but there has been a global shift in opinion regarding Palestinians and what constitutes justice for them. Do you see anything optimistic there?

A (27:37)

Yes, definitely. And there's a few things, Dan. So first is, I think finally there's starting to be an awakening that we can't just ignore what's going on with Palestinians these leaders may try to ignore it, but I think that there's a real awakening, at least on the street level, that I don't think that this is going to go away anytime soon. The second thing is I'm also beginning to see that there's the start of, even amongst diplomats, a recognition that they have to do things a different way. But the thing that gives me the most hope is that even over the course of the past two years, and this is what I saw when so many of the Palestinian hostages were being released, is they kept saying, you know, they tried to break us. They tried to break us. They tried to break us, and they couldn't break us. And there's a resolve that Palestinians have that is really there. You know, it's unbreakable.

B (28:55)

Deanna, thank you so much. I really appreciate this conversation.

A (29:00)

My pleasure. The opinions is produced by Derek Arthur, Sofia Alvarez Boyd Vishaka Darba, Christina Samulewski and Gillian Weinberger. It's edited by Kari Pitkin, Allison Bruzek and Annie Rose Strasser. Engineering, mixing and original music by Isaac Jones, sonia Herrero, Pat McCusker, Carol Saborough and Afim Shapiro. Additional music by Aman Sahota. The Fact Check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary, Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Christina Samulewski. The executive producer of Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.