Podcast Summary: "Who Can Stop a President Deploying Troops?"

Podcast: The Opinions – The New York Times Opinion
Date: October 11, 2025
Host: Michelle Cottle
Guests: David French (Columnist), E.J. Dionne (Contributing Opinion Writer)

Overview

This episode confronts the escalation of executive power under President Trump, focusing on his deployment of federal and state National Guard troops to Democratic-led cities during a government shutdown. The conversation navigates American political division, legal mechanisms for troop deployment (especially the Insurrection Act), and historical perspectives—the guests questioning who, if anyone, can stop a determined president from using military and executive powers domestically. They consider the impact beyond law—on American governance, public trust, and the psyche of a polarized nation.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. An America of “Red” vs. “Blue”

• Opening Tone & Satire
  • Michelle Cottle humorously blames her absence for “letting the government shut down and the National Guard invade Memphis and Chicago.” (01:12)
• Trump’s Divide-and-Conquer Governance
  • Cottle points to a policy trend: “Red America, which are his friends and fans, and then there’s Blue America, his enemies, the people who deserve retribution and the boot of his administration on their necks.” (01:46)
  • Example: Shutting down agencies/projects favored by blue states and axing energy funding predominantly in those regions.

2. Escalation and Precedent

• Domestic Political War vs. International Peace
  • David French observes the irony of “a peace deal in the Middle East... [but] an escalation of the political war at home.” He warns this “I win, you lose” strategy is “antithetical to how you operate in a constitutional republic.” (02:42-04:23)
• Historical Parallels—Red Scare and Civil War
  • E.J. Dionne frames the current approach as “Blue Scare: it’s not the Communists that we’re after, it’s Blue America.” (04:29)
  • French connects current events to pre–Civil War dynamics: “Total contradiction... claims by conservatives to believe in local control or states’ rights... but this is unlimited executive power.” (05:50)

3. The Insurrection Act and Executive Authority

• What Can States Actually Do?
  • Cottle: “What are the states that are being targeted? What can they do?” (06:54)
• Dionne’s Legal Deep-Dive
  • Sighing, Dionne declares: “We have to reform America’s most dangerous law... the Insurrection Act... [It] places the deployment of troops into cities at the President’s discretion. And this is an incredibly dangerous statute...” (07:06)
  • Notably, Trump hasn’t formally invoked the Insurrection Act, but is operating with nearby statutory authorities and its threat as “trump card.” (07:51)
  • Governors/generally have “not a lot” of recourse. Congress should act but hasn't.
    • Quote: “The options available to governors, options that are available to state legislatures, are very limited. Congress should be rising up... and, you know, we know how that’s going.” (08:33)

4. Failures of Congressional and Judicial Checks

• Institutional Loyalty Replaced by Partisanship
  • David French critiques the breakdown of constitutional checks: “There is no institutional patriotism going on in Congress at all. It’s a party spirit... prepared to support President Trump on everything.” (09:42)
• Retrospective Regret
  • Dionne: “Democrats... should have at least repealed or clarified the Insurrection Act... There are a lot of members who deeply regret they didn’t try to do that.” (10:42)
• Supreme Court Role
  • French and Dionne discuss the worrisome trend of the Court enabling executive overreach:
    • Dionne: “If the theory is, well, you can’t put limits on the executive’s exercise of executive authority, then we’re in for a rocky ride.” (11:28)
    • French disputes the Court’s claims of originalism in recent presidential immunity rulings: “I don’t see a shred of originalism in the immunity decision that the court issued...” (12:34)

5. Military Deployments and Societal Impact

• National Guard in “Enemy” States
  • Specifics include the Texas National Guard in Chicago—sparking tense exchanges between governors. (13:43)
  • David French: “You’re not accustomed to seeing troops on the ground... It’s hard to escape the notion that this is an effort to routinize and get us accustomed to people on the streets.” He shares Governor Pritzker’s fear this could become normalized, even on election day. (14:22)
• E.J. Dionne on Provocations
  • Accusations of federal provocation: “The conduct of some ICE officers and agents, they’re being deliberately provocative, in some cases... outright assault on camera.” (15:39)
  • The tactic: Destabilize blue cities to justify harsher responses, feeding the “cities are burning” narrative to Red America.

6. The “Trickle-Down” Divide and Its Endurance

• Mutual Demonization
  • Cottle observes: “Red state America being told that blue cities are a hellscape, and blue state America... red areas are marching toward fascism under MAGA.” (17:51)
  • Dionne: “Trump arose in part because of it... Negative polarization had already become a big part of American politics... To the point where for an awful lot of Americans, you’re viewed with suspicion and anger if you don’t hate the other side.” (18:30)
  • Survival of Only the Most Zealous: In the GOP, “if you are not opposing the Democrats 100%... your electoral track record over the last 10 years is abysmal.” (20:00)

7. Public Backlash, Exhaustion, and the Possibility of Snapback

• Polling: Overreach Unpopular Beyond the Base
  • French offers some hope: “Even among Americans who may agree with some of Trump’s objectives, they consistently think he’s gone too far... Only about 25% strongly approve of Trump.” (20:59)
  • Governors like Pritzker are betting on backlash to “troops in the cities.”
• Dangers of Widespread Disengagement
  • Cottle frets that political exhaustion breeds apathy, “the more likely [people] are to just tune out... leaves the entire country at the mercy of extremists.” (22:32)
  • Dionne identifies the “exhausted majority” (over 60%) “disgusted with politics,” but “they’re very hard to mobilize” because “the key word... is exhausted.” (23:03)
• Historical Caution and Snapback Potential
  • Dionne: “We have had snapback times throughout American history... But we can’t presume... that we will always survive in the future.” (27:48)
  • French emphasizes that while history offers hope, snapbacks “can take a very long time”—like the 80 years of Jim Crow post-Reconstruction. (29:15)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Law and Presidential Power
  • “We have to reform America’s most dangerous law. And what is the most dangerous law in America? It's the Insurrection Act... it places the deployment of troops into cities at the President’s discretion.”
    — E.J. Dionne, (07:06)
• On Political Division
  • “Red Scare undersells it. This is Blue Scare... It's not the Communists we’re after, it's Blue America.”
    — E.J. Dionne, (04:29)
• On Institutional Breakdown
  • “There is no institutional patriotism going on in Congress at all. It’s a party spirit... prepared to support President Trump on everything.”
    — David French, (09:42)
• On the Meaning of Troops in Cities
  • “You’re not accustomed to seeing troops on the ground... It’s hard to escape the notion that this is an effort to routinize and get us accustomed to people on the streets.”
    — David French, (14:22)
• On Partisanship and Exhaustion
  • “There is such a thing as the exhausted majority... more than 60%... But the key word... is exhausted.”
    — E.J. Dionne, (23:03)
• On the Need for Hope and Action
  • “I think we need hope in our ability to snap back and remember that we may have to fight real hard if we’re gonna snap back quickly.”
    — David French, (29:15)

Timeline & Timestamps

• 01:46 – Defining Trump’s “two Americas”; examples of targeted governance
• 02:42 – 05:00 – Historical context, parallels to Red Scare and Civil War
• 06:54 – 09:33 – The Insurrection Act: limitations on governors, role of Congress
• 09:42 – 13:34 – Congressional/judicial failures; Supreme Court analysis
• 13:43 – 17:00 – Real world impacts: National Guard in Chicago, ICE provocations
• 17:51 – 20:40 – Discussing division, demonization, and its impact on political behavior
• 20:59 – 23:29 – Data on public opinion, the exhausted majority, why the disengaged matter
• 26:58 – 29:53 – Snapback and historical recoveries, but with warnings about the price and time

Tone & Language

• Conversational but sobering, occasionally sardonic (notably from Michelle Cottle)
• Frequent use of historical metaphors and references (Lincoln, Civil War, Red Scare, Jim Crow)
• Cautious optimism is offset by historical caution and worry about institutional atrophy

Concluding Thoughts

The episode warns that there are currently few real legal obstacles to a determined president deploying troops domestically, and both Congress and courts have failed to provide meaningful checks. While polling indicates most Americans are uneasy with executive overreach (such as troops in the streets), an “exhausted majority” is disengaged, amplifying the voices and power of determined partisans. Historically, America has rebounded from periods of repression, but the path, duration, and pain of any coming “snapback” remain uncertain.

For Extended Discussion and Recommendations:
The panel ends with lighter personal recommendations on music, books, and food (30:07–33:58).

For listeners curious about the actual laws, civic implications, or the fragile line between robust governance and authoritarian excess, this episode provides urgently relevant, historically-modulated perspective—bluntly warning of the immediate and latent risks while anchoring hope in American resilience.