Ann Packer: "Some Bright Nowhere" | Oprah's Book Club

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Ann Packer: "Some Bright Nowhere" | Oprah’s Book Club

The Oprah Podcast – Hosted by Oprah Winfrey (Harpo)
Guest: Ann Packer
Date: November 11, 2025

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Episode Overview

This special Oprah’s Book Club episode, recorded in a live audience setting at a Starbucks in New York City, features Oprah’s in-depth conversation with acclaimed novelist Ann Packer about her new novel, Some Bright Nowhere. The discussion centers on the book’s exploration of end-of-life choices, caregiving, marriage, selfhood, and the emotional intricacies of saying goodbye. Personal stories from audience members bring real-world resonance to the book’s tough questions about love, autonomy, expectations, and the human need for connection during life’s most challenging transitions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Unconventional Plot and Its Emotional Fallout

• Premise: Claire, nearing the end of her life after a long illness, asks her husband Elliot to move out so her two closest friends can take over as caregivers for her final weeks—a decision that deeply unsettles him and those around them.
• Audience Reactions:
  • Diane (01:29): Finds Claire’s request “almost cruel,” empathizing with Elliot’s ensuing pain—“It hurt me for Elliot.”
  • Kyle (11:39): Shares a parallel story from his own life, noting how accurately Ann captured “how scared [Elliot] was, how isolated, how ill equipped, insecure.”

2. Origins and Themes of ‘Some Bright Nowhere’

• Inspiration: Packer reveals the premise was sparked by a real-life story about a woman whose husband was replaced by her friends as death neared. “It just blew my mind that a woman could do that, that… you could just expel your spouse because they weren't exactly right for the job” (04:54).
• Theme of Expectations:
  • Oprah (08:41): “Your disappointments in life with other people is because you expected one thing and they did another.”
  • Ann Packer (09:13): “So trouble in life is expectations colliding.”
• Point-of-View Shift: Initially intended as a multi-perspective novel, Packer shifted focus to Elliot because “that would be the hardest point of view to write,” which compelled her creatively (09:29).

3. Writing Process

• “The first draft…in four months...at the same time, four months for a first draft is pretty much unheard of” (06:47).
• Knowing the Ending: Ann wrote toward Claire’s death from the outset but didn’t know “exactly how they were going to get there” (07:01).

4. Gender, Caregiving, and Emotional Labor

• Insight from Jenna (24:18): There’s a unique “energy of women” in caring for women at end-of-life; friends hold space differently than husbands, whose instinct is often “to fix it.”
• Ann Packer: “For me, writing a man is not harder than writing a woman...you’re making an empathic leap into someone else’s experience” (15:58).
• Kyle (14:12): Recounts the pain of being a male “care partner,” echoing themes of isolation, societal expectations, and personal pride in continuing care even after divorce.
• Oprah (17:34): Highlights Jack’s Caregiver Coalition, a network providing support for male caregivers.

5. Debating Claire’s Decision

• Audience Responses:
  • Some men say they could not fulfill Claire’s wish to move out, calling it “selfish” (19:26).
  • Edward: “I would honor the person’s wish, but I would be very, very upset…there had an emptiness in their relationship that almost upstaged the cancer.” (20:19)
  • Jenna and others understand the desire for a circle of close female friends at the end.

6. Motive and Communication

• Robyn (31:25): “Claire expressed what she wanted, but she never gave Elliot a reason why...is it symbolic of relationships—sometimes we just have a really hard time speaking the truth...?”
• Ann Packer’s Authorial Insight (31:25): “I think Claire told as much of the truth as she could and the version of the truth that she knew at the time…one of the journeys in the book is Claire, and then Elliot, coming to understand what was really motivating her. But she couldn’t have told him that…because she didn’t know it yet.”

7. Cancer, Identity, and the "Land of the Ill"

• Jenna (34:27): Cancer “takes away your inner essence. For my friend…she was very angry. It took away her inner, like her essence…”
• Ann Packer (35:07): “It changes everything. You’re no longer living in the land of people who haven’t been affected by this thing...it takes away your sense of confidence that you’re going to have the life you always thought you were going to have.”

8. Real-Life Reflections and Caregiving Epiphanies

• Colleen’s Story (36:06): Cared for her brother and learned “under any circumstances that I can rise to the occasion and do what has to be done. It made me say, you better start living a life and you better appreciate it in a different way.”
• Kyle (28:23): “I think it taught me that I loved Sarah regardless...when you’re staring down a terminal illness, that’s all different…she did some math and made some decisions. And that wasn’t about me. It wasn’t an indictment of who I was. It took me a long time to get there.”

9. Normalizing Conversations about Death

• Ann Packer (41:48): “I think we have a hard time talking about it. I know that I’ve been in experiences when friends have been approaching death…I’ve seen that it frightens people a lot.”
• Oprah (42:39): Compares end-of-life rituals across cultures, musing that others handle dying with more ceremony and less avoidance.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Expectations in Relationships:
  • Oprah: “Your disappointments…because you expected one thing and they did another.” (08:41)
  • Ann Packer: “So trouble in life is expectations colliding.” (09:13)
• On Writing Male Characters:
  • Ann Packer: “For me, writing a man is not harder than writing a woman…you’re making an empathic leap into someone else’s experience.” (15:58)
• On End-of-Life Decisions:
  • Audience Member: “I would be selfish in that way, as Claire is selfish with her wish.” (20:12)
  • Jenna: “At the very end, Oprah, there is no fixing. So there’s just being.” (26:18)
• On Cancer and Identity:
  • Ann Packer: “You’re no longer living in the land of people who haven’t been affected by this thing.” (35:07)
• On Caregiving Lessons:
  • Colleen: “It made me say, you better start living a life and you better appreciate it in a different way.” (40:08)
  • Kyle: “It taught me that I loved Sarah regardless…It took me a long time to get there.” (28:23)
• On the Purpose of the Book:
  • Ann Packer: “We have a hard time talking about…approaching death…and that can come between them and the person who’s so ill. So I think it’s important to be able to talk about the fear and then possibly move beyond it...” (41:48)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:29] – Diane’s emotional reaction to Claire’s decision.
• [04:54] – Ann Packer explains the origin of the story.
• [09:13] – Discussion about conflict and expectations.
• [11:39] – Kyle Woody’s moving real-life parallel as a widower and caregiver.
• [14:12] – Kyle recounts being asked for a divorce during his caregiving.
• [17:34] – Oprah discusses support networks for male caregivers.
• [19:26] – Audience reactions to Claire’s controversial request.
• [24:18] – Jenna discusses her experience as a friend-caregiver.
• [31:25] – Robyn’s question about communication and truth in relationships.
• [34:27] – What cancer takes away from people – “the inner essence.”
• [36:06] – Colleen’s reflection on becoming an unexpected caregiver.
• [41:48] – Ann Packer on why she hopes the book sparks real-life conversations about end-of-life.

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Conclusion

This episode delves deeply into the emotional, relational, and ethical knots surrounding terminal illness, caregiving, and autonomy. Through nuanced exploration of Ann Packer’s Some Bright Nowhere, Oprah and her guests highlight the pain, complexity, and unexpected growth found in caring for those at the end of life. The discussion honors readers’ and listeners’ own stories—ultimately advocating for honest conversations, empathy, and honoring both the needs of the dying and those who love them.

“We have a hard time talking about [death]…So I think it’s important to be able to talk about the fear and then possibly move beyond it so you can have that sort of beautiful intimacy, painful, beautiful intimacy, with someone.”
– Ann Packer [41:48]

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For resources for male caregivers: jackscaregiverco.org
Some Bright Nowhere is available wherever books are sold.

Transcript

[Oprah Winfrey]

Anna's here. How wonderful. Good to see you. You're wearing one of my favorite colors, purple.

[Ann Packer]

It did not occur to me.

[Robyn]

It did.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you ever make yourself cry with your own writing? Because I know a lot of people.

[Ann Packer]

Did, embarrassingly, when I read it afterwards, sometimes do tear up.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hi, everybody. I'm so happy to welcome you to Oprah's Book Club, presented by Starbucks. We're in an empire state of mind here at a Starbucks cafe in the heart of New York City. And the holidays are here. And that means this month's drink pairing is a Starbucks classic, the Peppermint Mocha. With flavors of chocolate and peppermint. It's a merry, merry, merry, merry, minty way to warm up the season, along with a great book. And I have just the one for you right here. My 120th book club selection is Some Bright Nowhere by Ann Packer, the beloved Ann Packer. It's a novel that explores what happens when a wife's dying request shatters everything her husband believed about their 35 years together. Everyone in our audience has read the book, and I hear it brought up some strong feelings for many of you. Diane, where are you? Thank you, Diane. Some strong feelings. Let's hear it.

[Ann Packer]

Yes, actually, I've been married 40 years, and I thought it was really interesting in the book how the spouses could understand each other without necessarily speaking. And I thought that was beautiful. But at the same time, then, for Claire to exclude her husband at her most intense time of life, I thought was almost cruel, and it really. It hurt me for Elliot. So a lot of strong feelings. Beautiful book.

[Robyn]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Strong feelings.

[Robyn]

Beautiful book.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Edward, where are you? Hi.

[Edward]

Hi. So I lost my grandmother in 2016, nine years ago to a battle with Alzheimer's. And what I found interesting was that death in the book is rather a process than like just one limited moment in life. And through the process, we learned that connection is important, that we all want to be seen, and that love is important. And at the end of it all, that's what matters. So beautiful way of displaying that. Thank you.

[Ann Packer]

Thank you.

[Colleen]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, Tondo Delomo is one of my daughter girls, a graduate of my school who is a member of my family. She graduated from my school in South Africa. I met her when she was 11, going on 12. Her big dream was to come to America and become an actress. And that's what she's pursuing here now. And she reads every one of my book club picks. I didn't make her do it. She started doing it on her own. And so we want to know what's your take?

[Ann Packer]

Well, first of all, every time I thought I had a problem with Elliot and how passive aggressive he can be, I would realize my real problem is with Claire and how she intellectualizes her way into strong arming him every single time. Emotional, intellectual abilities and she's just whipping him up into all sorts of shapes. So yes, really great book. Not a fan of Claire.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's exactly. I didn't tell you this, but when I called Anne to tell her, I was actually at the gym and I had a. The call was set for like 2 o' clock and I wasn't gonna make it home. So I just called you from the gym and I said to her, I'm choosing this book even though I'm very annoyed with Claire and was annoyed with Claire through half of the book. I was totally annoyed by her and her lack of empathy for Elliot through this whole process. But in spite of that, I'm choosing it as an open book club selection.

[Colleen]

My God, you're kidding me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So I want you all to know just to set up the plot a little bit. Claire is nearing the end of her life after an eight year struggle with breast cancer. Her husband Elliot, who retired early to be Claire's full time caregiver, now he's retired and he's there to take care of her. Then he's blindsided when Claire asks him to move out so her two best women friends can move in and take over as caregivers for her last weeks on earth. It's a wow moment that sets the rest of the story in motion. Welcome the beloved Ann Packer. So great to have you here. Thank you, sir. As I told you when I first spoke, I was so annoyed by her three quarters of the book. What made you come up with this story?

[Ann Packer]

So it was actually a scenario I heard described about people in real life. I heard there was this woman, she had been ill for a long time and was reaching the end stages of that illness. And her husband was deemed unsuitable, incapable of seeing her through the final weeks and months. So her two closest friends moved in and did the job themselves. And I was, it was. There was not a lot of detail in the way that I was told the story. It was just sort of this happened and I thought, wow, it just blew my mind that. That a woman could do that, that any. Yeah. That you could just expel your spouse because they weren't exactly right for the job, whatever that was gonna be. And at first I was kind of taken with the notion of what that Sort of womanly cocoon of care and love would feel like. And that stayed with me for a long time. But at the same time, I was. I kept thinking back to the man. Like, what was his experience of that going to be?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I read that your bestseller, the Die from Clausen's peer, took 10 years to write and that you wrote the first draft of this one in four months. Is that true?

[Ann Packer]

That is true. And I could say I've just gotten a lot better at my job. But I think the reason the first book took so long is that I was raising kids and also hadn't had the experience of publishing a lot of books and learning to feel confident and to know when they were ready to go. And now that was almost 20 years ago. I feel a lot more like I know what I want to do when I write a novel. At the same time, four months for a first draft is pretty much unheard.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Of for a lot of people.

[Ann Packer]

I knew I wanted it to be really short. I knew how it had to end.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so you knew the ending before you started?

[Ann Packer]

Well, I knew that it was going to have to end with the end of her life in some way. So I was always writing toward that moment. I didn't know at all exactly how they were going to get there, but I knew that early in the book she was going to ask him to leave so that her friends could take care of her. And I just. I don't know. I'd been struggling with a different book for a while, and when I started writing this one, it felt really good. And I just worked hours and hours and hours every day, and I think that's how the speed happened.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I read somewhere that you believe that the theme that runs through all your work is that space between what other people want or expect of us versus what we actually want for ourselves. So why are you interested in that space in between? I think that's so fascinating, actually.

[Ann Packer]

I guess. I guess I would say the reason is that for me, that's almost always what conflict is going to be about. Interpersonal conflict. There's always a question of. Well, if there's conflict, it's because someone has disappointed somebody.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Ann Packer]

And why have they done that? Well, they were.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because the person had another expectation.

[Ann Packer]

Yeah. And they wanted to let me think.

[Oprah Winfrey]

About that for a moment. Yeah, you're right.

[Colleen]

Okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. It's true. Right?

[Colleen]

Yeah.

[Ann Packer]

And to live your truth, whatever that might mean, sometimes it's great for everyone else, and sometimes it's not. And then you have to.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's so interesting that you say that, Ann, because I tell people all the time, my girls and other people sometimes call me for counseling, that the reason you were so upset is because of your expectation the other person is just doing what they're doing, and you had another expectation for it that didn't have anything to do with who they were or what they wanted. And so your expectations did not align. So I think. Would you think about this for a moment, y'? All, that your disappointments in life with other people is because you expected one thing and they did another.

[Ann Packer]

So trouble in life is expectations colliding.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, expectations colliding. Why did you decide? I had heard that in the beginning you were writing from Claire's point of view, and then you decided to flip it to Elliot's point of view. Why?

[Ann Packer]

So at the beginning, I had an idea of a more expansive novel. And what I thought I would do was start in Claire's point of view, move to one friend's point of view, move on to the second friend's point of view, and finally get to the husband's point of view. And when I was working on that, they had different names. I had to. They were different characters. So I always have to really find the right name for my characters. So at that point, it was Tom and Jane. And I wrote Jane's Point of view for 10 pages. I switched to her friends, and I just ran out of interest in it. It didn't compel me the way I need material to compel me in order to be able to keep going. And I don't know why it didn't compel me. I think in retrospect, I wrote another novel about women's friendship. And so in some way, the terrain felt maybe a little too familiar. But then I started thinking about the husband and how that would be the hardest point of view to write. And as soon as I realized that, I was like, okay, that's what I wanted to do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. So were you that kind of person as a kid? You want to take on the hardest question?

[Ann Packer]

I would probably say that. I think as a kid, I would hear the hardest question and then try to break it down, try to deconstruct the question.

[Robyn]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's so interesting.

[Ann Packer]

I still do that. Like, just now, just now, which I didn't plan.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We'll be right back with a young widower who says Ann Packer's new book brought him to his knees.

[Ann Packer]

The holidays are back at Starbucks, so share the season with a peppermint mocha Starbucks signature espresso velvety mocha and cool peppermint notes topped with whipped cream and dark chocolate curls together is the best place to be at Starbucks.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. We're speaking with novelist Ann Packer about her beautiful new book, Some bright Nowhere, my 120th Oprah Book Club pick. We wanted to hear from people who've gone through a similar experience as Eliot. And we have Kyle here in our audience. Kyle, where are you?

[Kyle Woody]

I'm right here.

[Ann Packer]

Hi.

[Kyle Woody]

Hi, everyone. I'm Kyle Woody. And my story is essentially Elliot's. Only I was younger. In 2011. My wife Sarah was 34. I was 33. Our two sons were 4 and 1. And Sarah was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer. We expected she had two years at diagnosis, she had almost nine. For me, reading Elliot's story, it made me feel like I'd stepped into a time machine.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How was it triggering for you too?

[Kyle Woody]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I would think this would be triggering.

[Kyle Woody]

If you've lived was, you know, how scared he was.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Kyle Woody]

How isolated, how ill equipped, insecure, and how throughout it, there was this unspoken pressure that I felt and I read in your work with Elliot to project the opposite of all those things. And I also understood how Elliot felt when Claire asked him to leave. Because Sarah asked me for a divorce in 2016 while you were taking care of her? Yes.

[Ann Packer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Kyle Woody]

And we remained close how after. It was very difficult. It was a very difficult time. And that wasn't. That closeness wasn't immediate. You know, I remember she dumped me on a Friday before Father's Day. But we remained close, and I actually had opportunities to care for her after the divorce when her boyfriend Doug needed a break.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Wait just a minute here. So did she have the boyfriend before you were taking care of her?

[Kyle Woody]

No.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So she was diagnosed, you started to take care of her as her husband.

[Edward]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. And you had been her husband for how long? How long had you all been married?

[Kyle Woody]

For about six years.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. And then she's diagnosed, then you become the caregiver.

[Kyle Woody]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And five years into the caregiving, she says, I don't want to be with you anymore.

[Kyle Woody]

Correct.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Kyle Woody]

You know, when you're in your final days or your final season of life, things are different. You know, your decision making is different. And I'm really. Maybe the thing I'm most proud of is that through that experience of caring for her, Doug and I became very close. And to this day, we're raising Sarah's boys together in a way that I think Sarah would be very proud of.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. Wow. That is a story. So I was saying you would be very triggered in the book, some bright nowhere when Claire asks him to leave. Was that like a gut punch for you, too?

[Kyle Woody]

I got through, like, the first two chapters, and it just brought me to my knees because. And, you know, that was my question for you, Anne, is how. How in the world did you have such a nuanced and accurate portrayal of what it's like to be a guy in that role?

[Ann Packer]

Well, first of all, I'm so sorry for what you went through and amazed by your story, especially that you and Doug are caring for the children and raising them together. That's incredible how it's.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's part two of this novel.

[Ann Packer]

Hey, come on. We could collaborate. It's what you do when you create a character. And for me, writing a man is not harder than writing a woman.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It is or is.

[Ann Packer]

It is not.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's not.

[Ann Packer]

It is not. Because in both cases, you're making an empathic leap into someone else's experience. And I think, you know, I am in my 60s. I've seen friends go through cancer and not survive, and I've seen the effect on their families, and I've felt the effect on me, you know, what it actually does to a friend, a small community. So the sort of. The feeling of being in that challenge and heartbreak was familiar to me. And in terms of creating Elliot, you know, I said I'd abandoned the other attempt, the one that had the. The different points of view in it. And the trick for me is to get the voice. And I started writing it, and I found the voice very quickly. I felt like I could write. I mean, it's a third person. It's told, you know, as he, not I. But I felt like I could write from his point of view very readily. And I think that just kind of guided me into rounding him out and figuring out, you know, some of the details.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I. I read, Kyle, that your experience showed you that male caregivers need a lot more support. Is that. Is that true?

[Kyle Woody]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Ten years ago, Kyle and two other men who were also taking care of their wives who were struggling with cancer co founded a national nonprofit called Call Jack's Caregiver Coalition. Their inspiration was a family friend named Jack who told them to serve the caregiver. It's a lonely job, and they are always forgotten. The group provides a much needed support system that has helped countless men cope and navigate the feelings of isolation caregivers so often experience. I encourage you to Seek their help in if you need it, you can find [e-mail] the URL is there on your screen. I just finished a podcast with Emma Willis, who is Bruce Willis's wife, and she's written a book called the Unexpected Journey about what it's like to be a caregiver. And she doesn't use the word caregiver. She says it's really care partner because you're there partnering with the person that caregivers can be from the outside, but somebody who's in the home with the person all the time is a care partner. So you were a great care partner who was asked to leave through divorce. And I think that what you're saying is what she says in the book, that care partners need to take care of themselves first because most people just give and give and give until they're depleted and there's nothing there. Did you find that for yourself?

[Kyle Woody]

Yes, absolutely. The focus on the other of the person you're caring for is absolute for folks in this role.

[Colleen]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. I'd like to ask other men in this audience, you know, if you were Elliot, do you think he'd agree to move out? Yes. No.

[Audience Member (Male)]

No, you would not. I wouldn't give up my home if we've created that together. I would still give her her wish, but I would probably go into another space in the house. One thing that I really thought about Elliot's journey was the fact that he kind of just wilted away in what he was giving.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Audience Member (Male)]

He was trying to figure out how he could give her wish, but at the same time, when he goes with his friends and he tries to reminisce, it just wasn't working for me. So I just couldn't really see, like, why would he give up the place that he grew with his partner? Even if it is her final wish, I just wouldn't do that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You don't see yourself doing that. You don't see yourself.

[Audience Member (Male)]

I would be selfish in that way, as Claire is selfish with her wish, so.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. Okay. Yes, sir.

[Edward]

I think I would honor the person's wish, but I would be very, very upset.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Edward]

So I think it's just the fact that she has cancer and that she knows she's gonna die. They know she's gonna die. It's like a double whammy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Double whammy. So you would honor it, you would leave, but you would be pissed at it.

[Edward]

I think I would definitely fall into the passive aggressive zone. As much as I would love to have a heroic Clear, clean breakthrough. I kind of see what happened, but I think that it just shed light on the fact that they had an emptiness in their relationship that almost upstaged the cancer. And it took that huge life event to kind of reveal what was going on. So in the long run, for Elliot, it might be a blessing, but it was still hard.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Was it? That's what I was gonna ask Ann was. Does Ann, does Claire believe that her friends can give her something, obviously, during these final days, that Elliot can't or won't be able to?

[Ann Packer]

She does. And it stems from an experience she had as a caregiver, a support person for someone else. A friend she met in a cancer support group got to the end of her illness.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I thought she was fantasizing about that. I thought she was making that a lot more fantastical than it really was. Because from her point of view, it was one thing, but who knows what the woman who was actually experiencing the cancer was going through? Maybe it wasn't woo, woo, all kumbaya, everybody, you know, maybe she was annoyed with them all sitting there painting her nails and things, you know?

[Ann Packer]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's One of the things that Elliot comes to in the middle of the book is this idea she has said to him. It was so beautiful. When my friend Susan was dying, there were all these women, her daughters, her friends. We just surrounded her with love. I want that. And Elliot just sort of accepts that on face value. And it's only about halfway through the book where another character says to him, that was her point of view. What about Susan's point of view? What about the point of view of the person who was actually dying?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, exactly.

[Ann Packer]

And that helps Eliot. Hearing that helps him not take it quite so painfully impersonally.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. I was wondering, though, why couldn't she include Elliot and all of them? Would he not fit with the other?

[Ann Packer]

Well, I think she had. I think she had a very romantic idea of this female circle, this warmth and love from her women friends. And it's a really whimsical thing that she does. I mean, she doesn't plan it way in advance. She's ill.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Does she even think about how this is going to affect him?

[Ann Packer]

Well, I think she thinks about it, and then she has that, you know, you or me thing. She's like, am I gonna do this selfish act of requesting that my husband leave or not? And I think she thinks, well, here I am at the end. Don't we all want me to have the death I want?

[Colleen]

Yeah.

[Ann Packer]

And so she goes forward not Insensitively. And after she first says it, she kind of walks it back. It's not an easy thing for her to ask, but she.

[Oprah Winfrey]

She not only asked it, she lived it. And they were drinking wine in there and laughing all the time.

[Ann Packer]

She did. She wanted to have some fun.

[Oprah Winfrey]

She wanted to have some fun.

[Ann Packer]

In fact, if you think about the title, something bright Nowhere. She wanted the bright.

[Oprah Winfrey]

She wanted the bright, yeah. When the Oprah podcast returns, Ann Packer and I talk to a woman who moved in with her best friend during her cancer treatment. A warm welcome back to you all. I'm with the New York Times bestselling author Ann Packer, talking about her new novel that highlights the real life challenges of being a caregiver. Jenna, where are you? Right there.

[Ann Packer]

I thought so.

[Jenna]

So, Anne, your book really cracked my heart wide open. Two years ago, my best friend was diagnosed with cancer, and I moved in with her and lived with her for three months and then on and off for a full year. We got her through cancer. And it's a very special bond to be with someone through that whole journey. I mean, naps and talking and time, you just don't get in real life. So that was experience number one. And then two weeks ago, my friend lived her last four days of her life a different friend. And she asked me to come be there with her, with her sisters. And so this book, like your observations and what you talked about, like you said, I had to stop. I just cried. I thought, was Anne with me? Like, how would you know that such in depth, like what share with us. So to be there the energy of women of two sisters and myself, where her husband wanted her to be a trooper. And you're, you're being strong. We came in and just held the space for her to be however she was. She lived for four days. And I, it's nothing against the husbands. Like, that's, you know, I felt for Elliot, but there is something about your women friends who can just hold space for you and you can just be however you want to be. And we didn't even have to talk. You could just hold hands. Whereas there were times, and I know this is broad stroking it, but the husband wants to fix it and what can I get you? And she was like, I'm done with the fixing. And she would look at me and say, please make this stop. You know, and so. And then just things that you talked about physically that happened.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It is the nature of men to want to resolve the problem. It is right. The nature to want to fix it.

[Jenna]

And at the very end, Oprah, there is no fixing. So there's just being.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I got that.

[Jenna]

And I think female friends can do that for each other. You know, like I learned that many.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Years ago in the Oprah show, we were talking about the same thing, about the differences between men and women. You might agree, Kyle, that. Or you guys might agree that men want. Okay, you're telling me this, so I need to now resolve it or fix it. Women just want to tell you, I'm just sharing my feelings. You don't have to fix anything. I'm just talking about it.

[Jenna]

And also right to the very last day, we could have a joke or have. And I get it for the partner, this is so serious. This is the end. Your girlfriends can make you have a giggle right to the end. So there's that type of feminine energy that maybe that's what we crave at the end.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you understood why they took her away and they went out back to Maine and they had those final days.

[Jenna]

They really did. And your question, Oprah, was what I was thinking about of why at the end, do we do what we want for our loved ones? Or, you know, so was Claire being totally selfish? And I know people have strong feelings about that, but I saw the other side of I want my sisters and I want my girlfriend. And it was harsh to send him away. But does she get what she wants? Or are we people pleasing right until the last breath?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right until the last breath.

[Jenna]

So the last breath, Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you people breathe? I don't want you in here. But exactly, exactly. Just the last breath.

[Jenna]

But so exceptionally written. And I really. I felt like you were sitting with me during that whole experience. It was so well written.

[Ann Packer]

Well, thank you so much, and I'm sorry you went through that, but I also see the beauty in it.

[Jenna]

It was an honor. Truly, it was an honor.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I wanted to ask Kyle, what did this experience of giving yourself this care, partner caregiving experience, and then being asked to leave and then in the end coming back in the end to caregive with her new boyfriend. What did that teach you about yourself?

[Kyle Woody]

Well, I think it taught me that I loved Sarah regardless, you know, she. I saw her in the end, just having less capacity, less and less. And she. So she had, you know, so you think of it as calories. You've got so many calories to spend.

[Ann Packer]

And.

[Kyle Woody]

And when we have our life ahead of us, we don't think of that in finite terms, but when we're staring down a terminal illness, that's all different. And So I think she saw me, someone who loved her, and she knew that her boys and some adventures she had never had. And she just did some math and made some decisions. And that wasn't about me. It wasn't an indictment of who I was. It took me a long time to get there.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. That it wasn't about you. That it really was about her and her decision.

[Kyle Woody]

And I think it helps to understand, too, she spent, rather than having a girls weekend, she spent the last few months of her life in bed writing notes to my voice. So she's still very much alive in their lives because of that. So that took a lot of effort and time, and she wanted to spend it on that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, I know. I remember one of the. You know, people always ask me about the Oprah shows that I did. And everybody always thinks that the most. They'll say, what's the most exciting or the most memorable. Everybody always thinks it's gonna be about celebrities. And I say it's never about celebrities. It's always about real people. And one of the real people I remember was dying of cancer and wrote, not just wrote, but did tapes of for every birthday for her daughter until she would turn 18, about what to do when you go to your first prom. And this is what's gonna happen with your period, and this is what's gonna happen when I die, that daddy's gonna wanna marry somebody else. The daughter was only 6, so she did them for every birthday up until 18. And that takes a lot of time and thought and energy to do that. So all of us who are listening to your story admire the man that you showed up to be in that moment. We can say you should be proud of yourself for the man you showed up to be in that moment.

[Edward]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Robyn. Hi.

[Robyn]

So I'm a caregiver myself for my mother who has dementia. I think, first and foremost, I really appreciated the perspective that you took from the caregiver side. A lot of that resonated, despite the difference in illness. Some of this you covered with regard to the relationship and Claire's desire. The way she expressed it was really what she wanted, but she never said why. She never gave Elliot a reason why he had to leave for her to have this experience. So I was just curious if you felt that that was symbolic of relationships. That sometimes we just have really hard time speaking the truth to one another. And at times, perhaps it's easier to just take what you need and worry less about other people's feelings.

[Ann Packer]

You know, it's interesting, first of all, or back up. I'm sorry for what you're going through with your mother. My mother just died of complications of Alzheimer's. And it's a very long, hard passage, so I'm sorry for that. I think Claire told as much of the truth that she could and the version of the truth that she knew at the time. I think one thing that I try to do in books is weave together what's going on consciously for the characters and then what's going on unconsciously. And, you know, we don't want to give the ending away, but I think one of the journeys in the book is Claire and then Elliot coming to understand what was really motivating her. But she couldn't have told him that at the beginning because she didn't know it yet.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Tishon.

[Jenna]

Hi.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, hi. So when I was reading the book, I really felt like the story was pushed forward by Claire's wants and desires. And I was curious to know, like, what are your thoughts about kind of the final wants and desires of the.

[Ann Packer]

Terminally ill and should their wants or.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do their wants hold more weight than those of their caregivers or their loved ones?

[Ann Packer]

I think they do often. I haven't been personally involved in that many situations, but I would say there's no friend or family member of mine who has died whose experience wasn't privileged over everybody else's. This is it. You know, I think having someone make a dying wish is a very powerful thing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

On page 42, you write, she had given him his fatherhood. It wasn't just that she had given him children. She had given him his way of being a father, the greatest gift of his life. And after the gift, that was Claire herself. But alone out here with her so far away and so close to being entirely gone, he was lost. Do you ever make yourself cry with your own writing? Because I know a lot of people did.

[Ann Packer]

I would say, well, not while I'm writing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Ann Packer]

Embarrassingly, when I read it afterwards, sometimes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You do tear up.

[Ann Packer]

I have on occasion. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. And on page 133, you write, Cancer had taken something from her that was not energy or verb or ambition. It wasn't happiness or even contentment. It was an essential part of her that she couldn't name. She could only. I can ask you this. Who's watched your friend? What do you think cancer takes away from people? And then I'll let you answer that, too.

[Jenna]

For my friend who just passed, it took away the life. She had more to do. She was very angry. It took away her inner like her essence. And I also wanted to mention that I found it curious with her at the end that she was so sad for her husband, that she was disappointing him. Like, at the end, oh, I'm leaving. And I found that really interesting that, like, there's guilt at the end that you're the one who. And you touched on that. You wrote about that and that was so insightful. But you lose your inner essence of who you are. Cancer just takes that away.

[Ann Packer]

What do you think it takes away? Your identity is someone who doesn't have cancer in a certain way. You know what I mean? It changes everything. You're no longer living in the land of people who haven't been affected by this thing. And once you have been with a disease like cancer, are you ever really out of the woods? So it kind of. It takes away your sense of confidence that you're going to have the life you always thought you were going to have.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's interesting. Did you find that too?

[Kyle Woody]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Yeah. Because now you're forever a cancer patient. That's why. I know a lot of people hide it for as long as they can because they don't want to be known as the cancer patient. Because you're no longer seen as a full bodied person.

[Ann Packer]

You've lived in the land of the.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Ill. You've lived in the land of the ill. Okay, Colleen, where are you?

[Colleen]

My story is I lost my sister to pancreatic cancer and a year later my brother called to say he had pancreatic cancer as well and would I come live with him and be his caretaker. And I did, and he lived for 14 months. And what I found interesting about their relationship, at first I was very angry with Claire. But when Elliott was musing about their marriage and conceded that he always agreed with her and really, in the end, always conceded to what she wanted. I wondered if Claire brought in her friends so he would fight to say, no, I want to be the one that spends these last months, days, whatever you have left. And also would he help her to fight death and to live as long as she could, as best she could, even with this prognosis that death is coming and there is no treatment left. So that's where I took it.

[Ann Packer]

That's such an interesting idea that she was basically testing him. Are you going to stand up for yourself and stand up for this marriage? That had never occurred to me while I was working.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That never occurred to her. But you raised a point, Colleen. That never occurred to the author.

[Ann Packer]

But I will argue that the unconscious of my characters Is unknown even to me.

[Colleen]

Interesting.

[Ann Packer]

It could have been under the surface for her.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Percolating, right? Yeah.

[Ann Packer]

I don't think she wanted anyone to help her fight it anymore. I mean, I think the whole point of this passage. They've stopped treatment. They're entering hospice. It's about what happens after you fight.

[Colleen]

Mm.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think people who've been married or together, as you were saying earlier, for 35 or 40 years, can relate to how Eliot is processing a future without Claire. And on page 231 you write he'd been talking about Claire for nearly 40 years. But it came to him that going forward, when he talked about Clare, he would be talking about someone who was fixed in time, who had stopped being. The idea pierced him with its strangeness. I know you must have felt this with your brother and your sister, too. I did.

[Colleen]

And I, you know, personal for me. I've never married, nor do I have children, and I never even had a pet. So I only took care of me. And I thought, how am I going to take care of my brother who's entrusting me? And I was scared that I wouldn't be able to do the job.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Did you tell him that?

[Colleen]

No. No, I said, I will be there tomorrow. And I, you know, hung up the phone with him and packed my b. And the whole hour and a half way there, I kept saying, how am I going to do this?

[Oprah Winfrey]

But you did.

[Colleen]

But I did. You know, when you love so deeply.

[Kyle Woody]

Yeah.

[Colleen]

And he was the only brother. The oldest. I was the youngest. And I looked up to him my whole life. There was a 12 year age difference between us. Sure. There wasn't anything I wouldn't do for my siblings.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And did it give you an opportunity to know him in a way that you hadn't before?

[Colleen]

Absolutely. He was a totally different person. And because he was the oldest, he knew stories about the family and relatives and my grandparents that I had never heard. I didn't know. We talked about all these things. It cleared up so many things for me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And what did it teach you about yourself? As I was asking Kyle, it taught.

[Colleen]

Me under any circumstances that I can rise to the occasion and do what has to be done. It made me say, you better start living a life and you better appreciate it in a different way. I am a homebody and all of that, but it pushed me back into the world. And as a caregiver, you come out of the world around you because you're centered on just caring for this person.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Yeah. More of my conversation about End of Life Care with the beloved novelist Ann Packer when we come back. Thanks for joining us on the OPRAH podcast. Next we're going to hear Anne's reflections on how she hopes her novel will inspire readers to have conversations about the end of life. So this brought lots of things to the surface for you, which I'm talking about this character Elliot, for whom it also brought so many. He was saying how could he have failed to understand that she would no longer be. He would never again just talk about her, his wife in the other room at home for the evening back in Connecticut, discussing her with someone who knew her, describing her to someone who didn't, but might meet her someday. What did writing this book bring to the surface for you?

[Ann Packer]

I think I would. I think it focused my, my interest in the way people function in very, very difficult times.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Ann Packer]

And it was that part of the.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Reason why you wrote the book, too. The producer said to me you wanted to normalize this conversation around the end of life.

[Ann Packer]

Well, I think we have a hard time talking about it. I know that I've been in experiences when friends have been, you know, approaching death and I've, I've seen that it frightens people a lot.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Ann Packer]

And then that can come between them and the person who's so ill. So I think it's important to be able to talk about the fear and then possibly move beyond it so that you can have that sort of beautiful intimacy, painful, beautiful intimacy with someone.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm wondering if other cultures handle it differently because it seems like in our culture it's like, oh, God, you can't even say that you're going to die when every time I say that, somebody you know, particularly the girls, are like, oh, don't say that. Well, it's going to happen. It's going to happen.

[Ann Packer]

Yeah, I think so. I think there are many cultures that do it a lot better. And part of the issue, I think, is that we don't have a lot of rituals around people becoming ill and dying. It's medicalized. Not necessarily. That's not a bad thing. We need medicine, but the sort of rituals to handle just the notion of this passage into out of life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I just read an article about Canada has made it legal for you to euthanasia and how so many people now at the end of their lives who know they're going to die and are planning their death ceremonies are having these rituals. They're having these life celebration parties and making decisions about how they want that to happen. I know Claire would have been very happy with that. She would have been very happy with that.

[Ann Packer]

She had her own little party.

[Oprah Winfrey]

She had her own little party, or tried to. Yeah. At the end of writing this story and you put it away and you hit send and you send it off to your publisher, what sense of did you feel? A sense of relief? A sense of gratitude? A sense of.

[Ann Packer]

I think I felt a sense of completion.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Completion?

[Ann Packer]

Yeah. Like I don't let something go until I'm really finished with it, happy with it. I've rewritten it a thousand times. And. And that send. That send moment is sort of a way to formalize saying to yourself, done. It's done. You finished.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It is done.

[Ann Packer]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you so much for Some Bright Nowhere. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you to this audience. Thank you, Kyle. Thank you, Jenna. Thank you for sharing your stories with us. Thank you for living through that and then rising to be someone even better than you thought yourself to be, to be able to do that. I really have great admiration and highest regard for you all. Being able to do that for your friends, for your relatives, for your brother and your sister. Talking about great books, y', all, is one of my favorite things in life. So thank you for sharing in that with me. Some Bright Nowhere is available wherever books are sold. A heartfelt thank you to our wonderful partner, Starbucks, for all of your support in bringing together good books, good coffee, and good people. These are good people, good thinking people in our neighborhood. Starbucks Cafe is a perfect place to cozy up with a book, starting with that peppermint mocha. Go well, everybody. Thank you, Anne. Thank you so much.

[Ann Packer]

Thank you so much.