Can Psychedelics Heal Mental Trauma? With Harvard Professor Michael Pollan

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Can Psychedelics Heal Mental Trauma? With Harvard Professor Michael Pollan"

Release Date: March 4, 2025

Introduction

In this enlightening episode of The Oprah Podcast, Oprah Winfrey engages in a profound conversation with Harvard Professor and bestselling author Michael Pollan. The discussion centers on the potential of psychedelic drugs—such as psilocybin (magic mushrooms), MDMA (ecstasy), and LSD—to heal mental trauma and facilitate transcendent spiritual experiences. The episode delves into personal testimonies, cutting-edge research, and the evolving societal perspectives on psychedelics.

---

1. The Renaissance of Psychedelic Research

[00:00 - 04:24]

Oprah opens the episode by posing a pivotal question: "Can psychedelic drugs like psilocybin, MDMA, and LSD heal mental trauma or help people reach transcendent transformational spiritual experiences?" She introduces Michael Pollan, known for his influential books on food and consciousness, particularly his 2018 work, "How to Change Your Mind," which ignited renewed interest in psychedelics.

Notable Quotes:

• Oprah Winfrey [04:05]: "How to Change Your Mind is such a perfect title, dude."
• Michael Pollan [04:05]: "It's a big promise."

Pollan explains how, since his book's publication, there has been a surge in scientific studies and public interest, shifting psychedelics from fringe topics to mainstream discussions.

---

2. The Historical Context of Psychedelics

[04:24 - 07:48]

Pollan provides a historical overview, mentioning that psychedelics were not just a 1960s phenomenon but had significant research activity in the 1950s. He highlights the abrupt halt of this research due to political factors, notably the Drug War initiated by President Nixon, which labeled psychedelics as threats targeting specific demographics.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Pollan [06:08]: "The drug war was really about targeting the hippies and the blacks."
• Oprah Winfrey [06:00]: "In the 50s, up till 1965, from 50 to."

---

3. Understanding Psychedelics and Mental Health

[07:48 - 14:18]

Oprah and Pollan discuss the differentiation between individuals using psychedelics for therapy versus recreation. Pollan emphasizes the importance of "set and setting," explaining that guided therapeutic use involves a controlled environment and professional support, contrasting sharply with recreational use which may lack these safeguards.

Notable Quotes:

• Oprah Winfrey [13:04]: "I think that the word spiritual, the altering sounds more scientific."
• Michael Pollan [13:28]: "Psychedelics soften your ego, which is a walled structure, a defensive barrier."

Pollan recounts his own initial fears of psychedelics and how guided experiences transformed his understanding of love and consciousness.

---

4. Testimonial: Bob Parsons' Journey with PTSD

[16:28 - 25:55]

The podcast features an impactful interview with Bob Parsons, a Vietnam veteran and founder of GoDaddy, who shares his harrowing experience with PTSD and how psychedelics played a pivotal role in his healing process.

Notable Quotes:

• Bob Parsons [19:28]: "I finally came home."
• Oprah Winfrey [23:27]: "Do you continue to try various forms of psychedelics or was that experience, that four days enough for you?"
• Bob Parsons [23:34]: "That was big."

Parsons describes his transformation after participating in guided psychedelic sessions, which led to improved mood, reduced anger, and enhanced relationships. He and his wife Renee have since donated millions to support psychedelic research and the establishment of healing centers.

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5. Personal Stories: Dave and Reagan’s Experiences

[27:31 - 40:29]

Oprah introduces Dave and his daughter Reagan from Utah, who have utilized psychedelics for different therapeutic purposes. Dave speaks about unlocking childhood trauma and finding greater purpose, while Reagan shares her experience with overcoming OCD, anxiety, and depression through psilocybin.

Notable Quotes:

• Reagan [31:38]: "It was the first time in my life my intrusive thoughts completely went away."
• Michael Pollan [35:26]: "The psychedelics are like a fresh snowfall. You can take a new path down the hill."

Their narratives highlight the profound and lasting effects psychedelics can have when used responsibly and under professional guidance.

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6. Navigating the Integration of Psychedelics into Mainstream Medicine

[35:43 - 39:59]

The discussion shifts to the challenges of integrating psychedelics into established medical frameworks. Pollan underscores the necessity of combining psychedelic use with psychotherapy, a practice not currently addressed by regulatory bodies like the FDA.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Pollan [36:35]: "We have to educate medical professionals that spiritual approaches have medical value."
• Oprah Winfrey [39:29]: "And you need some things that they're doing to help you."

Pollan and Oprah agree on the importance of maintaining the spiritual and therapeutic integrity of psychedelic treatments to ensure safety and efficacy.

---

7. The Controversial Topic of Microdosing

[40:29 - 41:59]

Oprah raises the issue of microdosing, a trend where individuals take sub-perceptual doses of psychedelics for cognitive enhancement or mood improvement. Pollan expresses skepticism, noting the lack of scientific evidence and potential risks associated with unsupervised use.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Pollan [40:29]: "Microdosing may be a placebo effect, but the placebo effect is real."
• Oprah Winfrey [agnostic response]: Highlights the contrast between guided therapy and recreational use.

---

8. Navigating Grief with Psychedelics: Natalie's Story

[41:59 - 47:32]

Natalie, a guest from California, shares her journey of using psilocybin to cope with the profound grief of losing her father. Her experience led to a deeper connection with nature, enhanced faith, and a heart-opening transformation.

Notable Quotes:

• Natalie [42:55]: "I saw God in everything."
• Michael Pollan [50:02]: "The opposite of spiritual is egotistical."

Oprah and Pollan discuss the distinction between ego and true self, emphasizing that psychedelics can help individuals recognize their deeper spiritual connections beyond the ego.

---

9. Spiritual Experiences vs. Religious Contexts

[48:39 - 51:50]

The conversation explores whether spiritual experiences induced by psychedelics differ fundamentally from those achieved through religious or meditational practices. Pollan argues that while both pathways lead to profound connections, psychedelics can act as a shortcut for those who struggle with traditional methods like meditation.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Pollan [49:16]: "You can be spiritual without believing in the supernatural."
• Oprah Winfrey [50:39]: "The ego so darn true, that is."

---

10. Defining a Well-Lived Life

[52:43 - 53:27]

In the episode's closing segments, Michael Pollan shares his perspective on living a well-lived life, emphasizing presence and mindfulness. Oprah connects this to the benefits of psychedelic experiences in fostering lasting changes in consciousness and behavior.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Pollan [52:50]: "One of the things I meditate about are psychedelic experiences."
• Oprah Winfrey [53:27]: "But after the door is open, you want to keep this way of thinking alive."

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Oprah summarizing the transformative potential of psychedelics when used responsibly and within controlled, guided settings. She encourages listeners to approach the topic with an open mind and stay informed through reputable sources.

Key Takeaways:

• Psychedelics are gaining renewed interest for their therapeutic potential in treating mental trauma, PTSD, anxiety, depression, and addiction.
• Guided psychedelic therapy, combining the use of substances with professional support, is crucial for safety and effectiveness.
• Personal stories, such as those of Bob Parsons, Dave and Reagan, and Natalie, illustrate the profound personal transformations possible through responsible use.
• Integration of psychedelics into mainstream medicine faces regulatory and cultural challenges but holds promise for revolutionizing mental health treatment.
• The distinction between ego and true self is a recurring theme, highlighting the role of psychedelics in fostering deeper self-awareness and connection.

Final Thoughts: This episode serves as a comprehensive exploration of the complex interplay between psychedelics and mental health, offering insights from both scientific and personal perspectives. It underscores the importance of informed, guided approaches to harness the healing potential of these powerful substances.

Transcript

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hi. I am so glad that you all are here with me. Welcome to the OPRAH Podcast. They are as controversial as they are fascinating. And I know many of you are really curious as I am. So let's hop right into this question. Can psychedelic drugs like psilocybin, also known as magic mushrooms, mdma, also known as ecstasy and even lsd, can they heal mental trauma or even help people reach a transcendent transformational spiritual experience? Joining me, the man who's an expert on all of this, Michael Pollan. Great to see you again, Michael.

[Michael Pollan]

Great to see you too, Oprah.

[Narrator]

Once again, Michael Pollan is at the.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Forefront of a revelatory national conversation for newcomers.

[Guest]

What is a psychedelic?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Today, there's a new and growing fight.

[Sponsor]

To make psychedelics legal again in the United States.

[Guest]

Up next on StarTalk, all about psychedelics.

[Narrator]

Psychedelics once demonized as a dangerous counterculture threat, are being re examined as a possible tool for treatment for anxiety, depression, addiction, PTSD, and for spiritual transcendence.

[Bob Parsons]

It had been 49 years since the war, and I like to say this, I finally came home.

[Narrator]

Michael's best known for his blockbuster books about food like the Omnivore's Dilemma and Cooked. But his groundbreaking 2018 work, how to Change youe Mind created an opening for a new way to think about psychedelics.

[Reagan]

It's literally like magic. I was like, how is this possible?

[Natalie]

I saw God in everything. I came away just completely transformed.

[Narrator]

Before we begin, I just want to say this. This conversation is not intended to offer medical advice. Psychedelics remain illegal in most states.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So I urge you to consult your.

[Narrator]

Own healthcare professional before considering any kind of treatment.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So I read your book back in 2018, how to Change youe Mind. And when it was first published, it was really, I would have to say, eye opening. I was surprised that you, Michael Pollan, who had done all of these wonderful books about food and the Omnivore's dilemma and what we should be eating, had now stepped into another realm of the I was surprised, too, of the plant world. And I found it eye opening and challenging for me because I, I'll admit that I have had and continue to have preconceived notions and judgments around psychedelics. And at the time, I didn't think our culture, or I for that matter, was ready for this conversation. I thought, whoa, that's really this is really bold of Michael to do this in 2018, which at the time it was. But now I've noticed and I think you are the reason for part of this shift I've seen, first of all, more articles about it, more stories about it, more people who have engaged with the experience of psychedelics. And I think something is happening in the culture. Would you agree?

[Michael Pollan]

Absolutely. I mean, what's happened since 2018 is I never would have imagined how many studies are going on, how much research is being done, and how many people are seeking psychedelic therapy. And, you know. And when you say you were part.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Of that change, though, because when you wrote this book, you know, would you.

[Michael Pollan]

Say, yeah, it was pretty fringe?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Michael Pollan]

And I really didn't think that there was a, you know, large audience for a book on psychedelics. I was just personally fascinated. But, yeah, I mean, I think the book I hear from, especially from scientists, that it became okay to study this after the book came out.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How to Change youe Mind is such a perfect title, dude.

[Michael Pollan]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love it.

[Michael Pollan]

That's what it's about, what the new.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Science of psychedelics teaches us about consciousness, dying, addiction, depression and transcendence. I thought, well, if it does all that, I'm gonna read this book.

[Michael Pollan]

It's a big promise.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's a big promise.

[Michael Pollan]

But what got me really interested and making me realize. So I had had very little experience of psychedelics, personally, I was afraid of them. I didn't think I was sturdy enough psychologically to have a big psychedelic trip. And I didn't do it when I was in college. But I wrote an article about a study where they were giving psychedelics to people who had cancer, diagn, many of them terminal.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Was this Roland Griffith's article?

[Michael Pollan]

Roland Griffith's.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Roland Griffith, who I interviewed in his last dying days. I know.

[Michael Pollan]

That's an amazing interview.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Michael Pollan]

How do we awaken and stay awake to the wonder of what our existence is?

[Oprah Winfrey]

And he was so calm about the experience of dying. Yes. And so you read Roland Griffith's article.

[Michael Pollan]

So he was doing a study, he hadn't published it yet, giving some psychedelics, psilocybin, specifically magic mushrooms in pill form, to people who had cancer diagnoses. And I interviewed about a dozen of them and they told me stories of personal trauma.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Can I just tell people who he was? He's a renowned researcher of psychedelics at Johns Hopkins.

[Michael Pollan]

Yes. He really got the. What's called the psychedelic renaissance, started with his research, because he wrote this paper.

[Oprah Winfrey]

On the mystical and spiritual experience of it all.

[Michael Pollan]

Right. In 2006. And that really launched the whole revival of psychedelic research, which had been a big thing in the 50s and 60s. I didn't realize it, but in the 50s LSD was considered a wonder drug. There were six international conferences on LSD alone. There were.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In the 50s.

[Michael Pollan]

In the 50s, up till 1965, from 50 to.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, so we banned. And also people said the drug war.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah. And President Nixon, who starts the drug war, said that. The drug war. There's a quote that he gave to John Ehrlichman, his domestic domestic policy advisor, that we're going. We're going after LSD to get the hippies and cannabis to get the blacks. And those were his two enemies. And that's what the drug war was really about.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Michael Pollan]

And so anyway, there had been all this very promising research. LSD was being used to treat alcoholism with a lot of success. So I didn't know this whole backstory. I thought of psychedelics as a 60s thing, but actually it's really a 50s thing. And there was this promising research that gets shut down and we lose like 30 years of research that is just now resumed.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So some people are drawn, we know, to psychedelics because they are suffering from mental illness or mental trauma. Not mental illness, mental trauma. Because I think if you're suffering from mental illness, a lot of people shouldn't take it. If you are.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, there are definitely people who shouldn't mess around with these substances. People at any risk of schizophrenia. You know, if you have a relative that has schizophrenia, usually bipolar, they don't. They don't want you in the street.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You need to leave these drugs alone.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah. But people struggling with addiction, anxiety, ocd, obsessive compulsive disorder. Trauma.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Trauma.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, those are mental disorders that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Ptsd. We're going to talk to somebody later. So some are spiritual seekers, some are suffering from mental traumas, and others are just looking for this experience or seem to be doing it for fun.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, I mean, people. You know, people. The term recreational is. Is regarded as a negative. I mean, yeah, to recreate ourselves doesn't seem that bad, but, yeah, there are people who are just doing it for thrills, going to concerts.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But in every single instance, isn't it about changing consciousness?

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, it does change consciousness, but the set and setting are very important. So the context in which you do it, you know, if you do it to go to a Grateful Dead concert, it's one thing if you do it in a room. The way psychedelic therapy is done is you're lying down, you're on a couch, you're wearing eye shades, you're listening to music. It's a very internal journey. It's very different than kids taking mushrooms and walking in the woods. Where it's all about the sensory thrills.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So if you're using it for therapy, as a lot of people now are.

[Michael Pollan]

It'S a completely different experience.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's a guided experience.

[Michael Pollan]

Right. And the guide is really important.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So were you reluctant to take. I mean, you were, you know, pretty straight, straightforward guy.

[Michael Pollan]

I was terrified.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Were you. Were you reluctant to take them yourself?

[Michael Pollan]

Yes, yes. Yes. I was scared for a lot of reasons. One was, would I discover some deep, dark secret about myself? Because people do discover traumas that they're not looking for. Yes, that definitely comes up.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I would be afraid of having a psychotic break.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I would be afraid of losing my mind.

[Michael Pollan]

I was.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And not getting it back.

[Michael Pollan]

I was.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You were.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah. But I also found that doing it with a guide creates this safe envelope, this container in which you can really let go.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so tell us about the time you tell about experiencing your parents in the trees.

[Michael Pollan]

Oh, yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So I had said, oh, Michael is really tripping. But the realization that you had seemed pretty solid. And I am Michael. I mean, it made me so curious because I'm surrounded by trees. I love trees. I think I have some. Something is going on with me and trees. I don't know what it is. So your experience tells. Tell everybody what that was.

[Michael Pollan]

I was doing a dose of lsd.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What does it even look like?

[Michael Pollan]

It's a very powerful drug. It's measured in micro grams, not milligrams. And you take a very, very tiny amount. And it's usually on a piece of paper or it's usually on a piece of blotter paper. They just put a little drop and you put the piece of paper on your tongue, and that's enough. And the experience was, I saw my son, I saw my wife, I saw my parents, and there was. It was like a treehouse being built layer by layer by layer by layer. And it was a kind of a life review. And. And I emerged from it with this just surge of compassion for these people in my life. And I had this realization, which like 90% of people on psychedelics seem to have, which is the most important thing in the world is love. Now, that's obvious. But the thing about psychedelics, feel it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Or experience it in a way that you didn't know before.

[Michael Pollan]

With a conviction that I hadn't had before.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And does that conviction stay with you after the experience?

[Michael Pollan]

Yes, exactly. You really hit on it. The kinds of insights you have on psychedelics, for reasons we don't really understand, are really sticky. This isn't just an Opinion or an insight. This is like a revealed truth to the universe.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It feels like a knowing.

[Michael Pollan]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It comes through.

[Michael Pollan]

It's revealed knowledge.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Tell us about the one. I'm specifically asking about the parent. The father was the tree and the mother was the tree, and that both were these two trees.

[Michael Pollan]

I know what episode you're talking about. Yeah. So I. Years ago, I built a little studio where I write and I've written my books. And it faces two trees. And one is a very elegant white oak that's kind of leaning, and the other is this kind of stolid ash tree. And it was. And having taken, in this case, psilocybin in my garden, I had this power. I mean, you know, I love plants, and I've been writing about plants for a long time, and I'm a gardener, and you are, too, that the plants were conscious and they were awake. I had this sense that the plants in my garden were kind of like looking at me, and there were these two trees, and I suddenly realized.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So I think that. And I'm not on psilocybin. I come in the gate and I say hello to all the trees. I go, I'm back. Tell everybod hello.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, on psilocybin, they'll say hello back. So. And these two trees I hadn't realized before, oh, that's my mother, and that's my father. And the one that was my father, that tree had just had fallen. A giant limb had fallen off, and he was sick at the time. And I realized that they were both going to go eventually. And it was very moving, and they were embodied.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I was so excited by that because I think I'm not conscious enough to know, but I know that there is a oneness. There's a connection with all of nature. I just.

[Michael Pollan]

Well, that's a.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Don't know what it is. So the plants aren't speaking to me. But I know that there is life there. I know that there is something going on that is deeper than what we can see.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah. I think a key word for what psychedelics do is connect you. And for me, it's about connecting to nature. It was connecting to people. And the reason that happens, I think, is that psychedelics soften your ego. And the ego is. You know, ego is a walled structure. Right. It's a barrier. It's a defensive structure.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And it's who most people think they are.

[Michael Pollan]

That's right. They feel they're identical to their ego.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But you're not.

[Michael Pollan]

You're not. It's just one voice. And it can get quiet. And one of the things that happens on psychedelics, and we understand this neuroscientifically, there's a structure in the network, in the brain called you're not the voice.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You'Re actually the observer. You're the space between the voice and the thoughts. And when you can separate that which I can do in meditation and there's.

[Michael Pollan]

An awareness, it's very similar in meditation. There's a lot in common actually.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But it sounds like psychedelics is a higher level of the deepest of the meditations.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah. And. But having done psychedelics, I became a better meditator because I understood, oh, this is where I'm trying to go. But this sense of, you know, your ego softening and some. And in one case I had completely disappearing. I had a ego death experience, which I can tell you about. When the ego goes down, there's nothing between you and nature. You and other people are you in the universe. And you feel like the sense of oneness.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Eckhart Tolle talks about that in A.

[Narrator]

New Earth a lot. I'm with best selling author Michael Pollan and we're about to hear from all kinds of people who are using psychedelics to heal from mental trauma, including a war veteran who suffered for decades from ptsd. Let's get to it.

[Sponsor]

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[Narrator]

I am here with Bestselling author Michael Pollan, who is at the forefront of research and reporting on the benefits and concerns people have about taking psychedelics. A reminder, this conversation is not intended in any way to be medical advice. You will want to and must talk to your own healthcare provider if you're interested in taking psychedelics.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So, you know, a lot of the new research y'all on psychedelics started with treating veterans who were suffering from chronic ptsd. This is where the real breakthroughs are, I think. And for decades, it seemed that no treatment worked. And then there were a lot of practitioners who started seeing real relief for patients using psychedelics. And you told my team about this guy named Bob Parsons, who is a Vietnam veteran and a business mogul who founded the Internet tech company GoDaddy. Y'all remember GoDaddy. Bob is zooming in. Bob, welcome to the Oprah Podcast.

[Michael Pollan]

Hi, there.

[Bob Parsons]

Real pleasure to be here, Oprah.

[Michael Pollan]

Thank you. Good to see you.

[Bob Parsons]

You know. You know, Oprah, there's something I got to tell you before we get started.

[Narrator]

Tell me.

[Bob Parsons]

Over the years, I've done, you know, a number of interviews, and every once in a while, I would get asked, they'd say, bob, if you could share a beer with anybody or have a beer with anybody, who would it be? And my answer was always, Oprah Winfrey.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, my goodness. Well, I don't have a beer, but hello, Bob. All right, well, thank you. Because I'm so interested in knowing what was your PTSD like for you before you had a psychedelic experience? What? What? Tell us how you were tormented by it.

[Bob Parsons]

Well, you know, like so many of us, particularly you, I grew up tough, and, you know, I carry, you know, probably carried some PTSD from that. When I was 17, I joined a Marine Corps. And this was back in 1968. And I was. Well, I was in Vietnam six months later carrying a rifle. I was in combat for a month. And I was. I was wounded. And the guy who went there was. Was different from the guy who came home. The guy that went there was, you know, pretty happy. Go lucky. Was. Was easy going, loved, loved being out and about. The guy that came home was none of that. The guy that came home had a flash temper, suffered from depression, didn't like socializing too much.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I just want to say this was at a time when nobody was talking about this. Nobody was saying, oh, you know, you're probably suffering from depression or ptsd. You just had to figure it out yourself in your family, and everybody around you is like, what has happened to this guy?

[Bob Parsons]

Exactly. Well, they would call it shell shock.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, yes.

[Bob Parsons]

So. So any, anyhow, you know, this went on, it cost me two marriages. Both my wives, which were wonderful woman, you know, you know, they. They tolerated me as much as they could. Then they gave me to, you know, my. My walking papers. And eventually I was married to my third wife, Renee. And I read Michael's book when it first came out.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And what made you read it?

[Bob Parsons]

Well, the title, how to change your mind. I thought it would be, you know, be very helpful because I knew I needed to do something different. And back then, the dialogue for PTSD had started.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Bob Parsons]

And, you know, and I feel that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

There was something wrong with you, Bob. Could you feel that whatever this is, it's not normal or not. Right.

[Bob Parsons]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Had you tried other therapy?

[Bob Parsons]

Yeah, well, you know, you know, a little bit of talk therapy, which I don't. I don't think works too well. And, you know, the only things that would ever help would be if I connected with the guys I served with in. During the war.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Bob Parsons]

And, you know, spend time with them. I would come away just feeling just wonderful.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Bob Parsons]

But that. That would only last for a while.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Because you'd be validated.

[Bob Parsons]

What I did was when. After I read Michael's book and I learned about psychedelics from that, you know, before that, I had never taken anything like that, you know. You know, I, like most people, thought that, you know, if you took psychedelics, you had to worry about jumping off a building or something. You know, Michael dispels that pretty quickly in his book. And so reading the book was like reading a novel, Oprah. I mean, this thing just reads so quick, and it just pulled me right through it. So I told my wife I'd like to try it. She had me hooked up with two guides within two weeks. And I met with them in Hawaii, and I did three different types of psychedelics over four or five days. And after I was done, my wife could not believe the change in me. She was the first to notice it. Man, I was. I was. Now I was happier. You know, I like going out and about that my temper was far less. And, you know, I was. I was a better guy from these.

[Oprah Winfrey]

From four experiences. So what happened on the. During the experience? Did you see yourself differently? Did you experience the trauma? Did you relive the experience? What ha. What actually happened? Can you tell us all that?

[Bob Parsons]

All that? Oh, I. You know, there's, you know, the first day I took ayahuasca and a lot of tears, a lot of reliving. And a lot of, you know, seeing it. And then I took. The second day, I took psilocybin. And when I did psilocybin, the guide fixed a teapot, and he says, you know, this teapot holds three cups, and I made it strong, so you're only going to need one cup. Well, Oprah, I swear this is true. I drank all three cups and I ate the tea bags. So I was righteously stoned. I flashback. I actually seen things that happened. And then the next day we took off, and my wife and I went and played golf. And when. When I was out on the golf course, it was like. To get back to your earlier conversation, it was like the trees knew I was there, the plants knew I was there. And, you know, I could feel like a kinship there. When I. When I put it on the grains, you know, it was like the grass said, hit it here, Bobby. And I did. And then.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So. So, Bob, can I ask you this? One of the. One of the things Michael shared with us is that in one of his experiences, he came away with this feeling that love is everything. Did it open you up to experience love, loving, being loved differently?

[Bob Parsons]

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And, you know, and it's not finding love, it's knowing how to be loved.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh.

[Bob Parsons]

Because when. When you suffer from ptsd, man, that's a. You know, that. That's. You don't feel that way at all.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Bob Parsons]

And so. So. So that was. That. That was big.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you and your wife Renee, now have donated millions, I understand, to research, even funding a center on psychedelic healing at Mount Sinai in New. Hoping for.

[Bob Parsons]

I am hoping that, you know, we're going to see this gradually made legal everywhere and becoming a normal treatment, because when we do, I think it'll. It will be a renaissance in the country. I mean, we could have people in jail getting out better than they went in. If they're. They're. They're. They're treated with psychedelics because it'll get at the root causes, whatever, all the ugly stuff that is causing them to be like they are.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So, Bob, can I ask you, do you continue to try various forms of psychedelics or other drugs, or was that experience, that four days enough for you?

[Bob Parsons]

Well, you know, I have went through the process another time with two guys that I served in Vietnam with, the squad leader and the machine gunner. And so I went through it again, which reinforced what I did the first time. And, you know, I'm happy to tell you that, you know, when. When I. When I. When I did my. Had My psychedelic experience. It had been 49 years since the war. And I like to say this. I finally came home, and, you know, I'm going to tell you that when I went through it with the machine gunner and. And the squad leader, they both came home. And I'm aware of a number of others who have went through it that I had nothing to do with. And, you know, they're totally different people afterwards.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. That's why you and Renee have created the center.

[Bob Parsons]

Oh, absolutely. I cannot think of a better gift to give the United States or the world than to fund this stuff.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you, Bob, for joining us and sharing that story. And maybe one day we'll have that beer.

[Bob Parsons]

All right. Maybe we'll have a shot in a beer. Oprah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

A shot of beer. Okay. Thank you so much.

[Michael Pollan]

Thank you, Bob.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The best to you and Renee.

[Narrator]

The brilliant Michael Pollan is here with me on the Oprah Podcast, and we're about to meet a father and daughter who've used psychedelics for different reasons to help unlock childhood trauma and to help ease symptoms of ocd, anxiety, and depression. We're gonna hear their experience next.

[Sponsor]

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[Narrator]

Hearing a lot these days about the use of psychedelics to help heal mental trauma. And that's why I thought this would be a very interesting conversation for the Oprah Podcast. We heard from viewers and listeners who have questions for bestselling author Michael Pollan, who's with us today, who wrote one of the definitive books on this topic.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Let's meet Dave and his daughter Reagan. They are zooming in from Utah. Dave, you say psychedelics helped you unlock childhood trauma and even has given you a greater sense of purpose. Tell us how is that? So. That is so interesting.

[Michael Pollan]

Thank you.

[Guest]

It's great to meet you, Oprah. It's such an honor and just want to thank you for all that you've done and do for humanity. And, Michael, it's so great to meet you. I'm a huge fan. But, yeah, so I. I kind of found myself as I was transitioning from my late 40s into my 50s. I had a pretty big basket of existential questions and also these personal questions that were really burdening me from some childhood traumas. And so I received some advice from a trusted person in my life, and he said, you know, you should try psychedelics, and specifically psilocybin. I think it'd be a really great experience for you. And I thought about that. And actually, in the past, when I was about 17 years old, I had a recreational experience with psilocybin. And it was. It was great. I was with all my dear friends, and we were up in the mountains, my favorite place to be.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And did the trees talk?

[Guest]

Everything talked.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It was okay.

[Michael Pollan]

It was really incredible.

[Guest]

I saw grids. It was. It was great. It was. It was an insane. It was really, really great. But anyway, the memory of that experience and being so positive, I thought, wow, I never thought that that could be a modality to, you know, really focus on getting some answers. And I had this very intentional set of questions, and I had such an incredible and specific experience, one that, I mean, I can put myself back there at any moment, and it just. It's. It resets my life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So. Can I ask you this? Can I ask you this? Because I. I don't know anybody who. Or maybe I do know somebody who's done it, but I never asked this question. Are you're able to ask questions and people can ask you questions while you're doing it? You're conscious enough to be able to do that?

[Guest]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You can hear what other people are saying. So I always thought it was like you're off into your own world and you're having your trip, and then you're not a part of whatever this world is.

[Guest]

I had a combination experience where you can be. You can be out and in communication with your guide. Okay, I recommend a guide. I agree, Michael, 100%. And be very thoughtful through that process.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That the setting and the.

[Michael Pollan]

Is so important.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The setting is so important.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah. I mean, we want to control ourselves and our environment. And if we're not completely. If we don't feel completely safe, we're not going to let our minds travel.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

And the guide is looking out for your body. Roland Griffith used to say, you're going out to outer space. Don't worry, we're right here. We're mission control. We'll keep an eye on your body.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

So your mind can travel.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Reagan, you're nodding. Did you have a similar experience? I heard you tried just for fun, and then it turned out to be more than that.

[Reagan]

Yeah, so my experience was actually quite different. I actually had watched Michael, your documentary on Netflix, and it completely changed my view on just psychedelics. And then I had also spoke to my dad about his experience. So abroad during college in Amsterdam, I was like, you know what? This is a great time. I'm on vacation. Let me just do a little bit, see what it does. And just a little bit of background. I have struggled with ocd, anxiety, some depression symptoms kind of my whole life. And at first, when I took the substance, I didn't really notice anything. And I thought, okay, maybe I didn't take enough.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What was the substance? Was.

[Reagan]

Was mushrooms.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Reagan]

And then as the day went on, I realized it was the first time in my life that my intrusive thoughts and my racing thoughts and all of them completely went away. It was the first time in my life I was able to be grounded and in the moment and just enjoy my own company and not be scared of what's gonna pop in my mind. And it really opened my mind to, you know, going and experiencing it with a guide and kind of using it as a replacement for some other methods that I have tried in the past.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Any questions you have for Michael, here's your chance.

[Reagan]

Yes. So do you think that we're approaching a new frontier in medicine regarding these experiments, and is it a way that we could potentially help individuals like myself who struggle with anxiety?

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, I'm very hopeful that that is happening. We have a lot of research. We need more. But all the treatments we have, SSRIs, et cetera, really only deal with symptoms. They don't deal with causes. We have no drugs that deal with causes of mental illness and actually provide cures. And this, at least in these initial studies, and these are trials with a couple hundred people. They're not huge, yet we're seeing positive and lasting results. You asked about ocd, obsessive compulsive, disorder. There was a trial at Yale using psilocybin, and people had permanent relief. And, you know, one of the questions that I had myself is, wait a minute. This is a little suspicious. This one substance works on OCD and anxiety and depression and addiction and anorexia. This seems a little too good to be true. And I posed this question to a very well known psychiatrist who'd been head of the National Institute of Mental Health. And I said, is this a panacea? Is this for real? And he said, well, how do you. How do you. Why do you think all those different things are different illnesses? They may be different manifestations of the same kind of brain. A brain that is stuck in patterns of behavior and thought that it can't get out of. And maybe what the psychedelics are doing. Right. It was like the light bulb went off.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's a light bulb moment right there. We are.

[Michael Pollan]

And we are victims. Victims.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And it's all just the same. It's the same thing.

[Michael Pollan]

And it may be. They may just be different symptoms rather than different disorders. So that. That I understood because.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Stemming from the same thing.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, from a rigidity of thought and what psychedelics do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I saw Reagan. You had that aha moment too, right? Yeah, definitely.

[Reagan]

And it. I mean, I've done talk therapy and a bunch of other therapies, but I think coming out of the experience, I realized, oh, my gosh, it's your point, Michael. It's all a manifestation of this one quote, unquote disorder that I have. And this drug, it's literally like magic. I was like, how, how is this possible?

[Oprah Winfrey]

How is this.

[Michael Pollan]

I know, it, it. It does feel like magic. Yes, but. So I think that what psychedelics seem to do is make the brain more plastic, able to learn. There's a beautiful metaphor that a scientist gave me once that think, think of your mind as a snow covered hill and your thoughts as sleds going down that hill. And over time, the grooves get deeper and deeper. And you can't go down the hill without falling into one of those grooves. The psychedelics are like a fresh snowfall. It fills all the grooves. You can take a new path down the hill.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, I love that metaphor. Dave, did you have a question?

[Guest]

So, Michael, your book and your research just. It gets into the tradition and history of these drugs so well, and I just wondered, how do we integrate psychedelics into the mainstream mental health treatments?

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, it's great.

[Guest]

How do we preserve the spiritual aspects while we're kind of trying to segue it into mainstream medical that's been big questions.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's a great question.

[Michael Pollan]

It is a wonderful question. And there's a lot of kind of suspicion and hostility in among scientists and medical professionals at the word spiritual.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

Yet you can make a case that many things we call mental disorders are spiritual diseases. I mean, addiction is a spiritual disease. And what is at the root of a lot of these disorders is a lack of connection, a sense of isolation, separation, you know, you're encased in your ego. And so I think we have to educate medical professionals that spiritual approaches have medical value and that's not the way they think.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I think the word spiritual always hangs people up too. I mean, I got so much criticism back in the 80s and 90s and early aughts by just using the word spirit.

[Michael Pollan]

Oh yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

On broadcast television. I think the word consciousness is a better word.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think consciousness, the altering sounds more scientific. Yeah, it sounds more scientific. And that is actually what is happening in the spiritual experience. You're elevating, enhancing, opening your consciousness to experience life and yourself differently. That's what I think.

[Michael Pollan]

And there's one other difficulty about incorporating this in our medical system and that is that psychedelic therapy is not just about taking a psychedelic. It really should be called and often is psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. Because the support of the guide or the therapist is critical to its success. And the fda, which regulates drugs in our country, does not only regulates drugs, they don't regulate therapy. So how are they going to deal with this thing? It's a square peg in a round hole. I know, and that's going to be a challenge. I think we can work together.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's why I don't think we're here yet. We're certainly not here yet because like everything, once people start using it, it's just like the anti obesity drugs, then people create their own, you know, pharmacies for making the anti obesity drugs. And people are doing it, you know, on the side and it's not, you know, authorized and stuff. And I think it's dangerous for people to have these kind of explorations without a guide.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, I mean, I think if you're going to use a high dose of psychedelics, you need to use a guide. I mean, people can take a couple mushrooms and wander in the woods and they'll be fine. But at a high dose there are risks. I mean, we should be realistic about it there. Some people do have serious psychological problems, bad trips that last a very long time. Guides can help you work through that. They give you very specific advice when things get Very dark. Because I think we should not under underplay the fact that these experiences can be very challenging, frightening. And that can be productive. But in the process, you can counter demons.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You need some things that they're doing to help you.

[Michael Pollan]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Especially if you're a person who has demons.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you. You're taking it because you know you have demons.

[Michael Pollan]

That's right. Yeah. And the guides know exactly what to tell you to get through that. I mean, they're very specific. They call them flight instructions. And they'll tell you, if you see a monster, don't turn and run away. Go right up to it and say, what do you have to teach me? Why are you in my mind? And you will pass through that dark into a lighter place.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That is my favorite phrase on Earth. Like, I want to cry right now. Because anytime there is a challenge in my life, that is the first question that I ask. What are you here to teach me? What is this for? Or if I'm in the middle of a bad dream, I'll say, okay, what are you here to teach me?

[Michael Pollan]

And that attitude of curiosity rather than fear and anxiety changes everything.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. It's not even just curiosity. It's like, I want to know what it is so I can get out of it.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah. Yeah, right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

In and through is the other thing guides are always saying. In and through.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In and through. Well, thank you all. You are Sharing here. Today has really been informative for all of us. Thank you so much.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah. Wonderful to meet you.

[Narrator]

Wonderful to meet you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Dave and Reagan. Thank you.

[Michael Pollan]

Good luck.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you hear a lot about microdosing. If the Oprah show was still on, we'd be doing shows, I think, on microdosing. Moms and parents, there are a lot of them microdosing parents in the suburbs having shroom parties. What is your take on that? What is that? Microdosing.

[Michael Pollan]

So microdosing is a very different approach to using psychedelics. It's not guided. It's a very tiny dose. It's like a 10% of a normal dose. And people do it. Not every single day. They'll do it a couple days and then a day off, because you build up a tolerance. And many people report relief from depression from it. There is not a lot of science yet on it. It's very hard to study because no university institutional review board is going to let you give any amount of LSD to somebody and let them drive off in their car. It's a dose that you don't even feel. It's sub perceptual where is everybody getting this stuff anyway? Well, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't know that. Okay. But it's around. And people are selling gummies with psilocybin even though it's not legal. They're around. They're on the Internet. So microdosing may be a placebo effect. It may be. And the placebo effect is real. Make no mistake. People get better. You know, if I hand you, if you have back trouble and I hand you a sugar pill, you will feel better. It's a very powerful effect and it multiplies when you are microdosing something like lsd, which already has this magic aura about it. So it may be that, but we don't know yet. The science is not in yet.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Natalie's joining us from California. Natalie, I hear you turn to psychedelics to cope with grief. How did that go for you? How did that work out for you?

[Natalie]

Oh, Oprah and Michael, it is an honor to be here. And Michael, I have to say that when my son and daughter in law heard that I was going to be on the show, they're big fans of yours on the podcast and they literally squealed when they thought that I was going to meet you. And Oprah. And Oprah, I just have to tell you that you have been a guiding light on my path to purpose and a being of service for decades. And I just want to thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, thank you for that, Natalie. Thank you. Thank you. So I hear. What's your question?

[Natalie]

My question is, Michael, what is your advice for someone going further with this experience legally? So my experience was I knew I was aware about the use of psychedelics for mental wellness, but never seriously considered it for myself until I experienced my life's greatest fear, and that was losing my father back in 2018. And he was my rock, my, my solid place. And initially when he passed, I felt his presence all the time. He was right there with me. And it was amazing. And then gradually that that presence started to dissipate and I went into a deeper level of grief and just couldn't really seem to get out of it. I tried other things. I tried going to a float tank, which was kind of like a sensory deprivation experience, which made it actually worse. And my son suggested psilocybin and I, I went for it. And it was out in nature. And it was an incredible experience. It strengthened my level of faith. The colors in nature were brighter. I saw God in everything. And I just had this incredible heart opening of just.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love that.

[Natalie]

And Similar to you, Michael, where you mentioned doing psilocybin to deal with the.

[Michael Pollan]

Grief of your father, who passed in 2018.

[Natalie]

In fact, for me is I'm a mother. I have three adult children, two adorable grandkids and a wonderful husband. And they all came up. It was just so much gratitude, so much peace. And I came away with it. Just completely transformed. And the way that I could say that that transformation occurred is that there was a stark contrast between the truth of who I really am, which is love as well, and my ego. The ego dark.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think one of the things that Michael emphasizes in the book is that the ego and who you believe yourself to be are not identical. They're not. And that separation, that is the biggest thing that happens with most people.

[Michael Pollan]

I think such a valuable lesson because you don't. It teaches you I'm not identical to my ego, so I don't have to listen to that voice in my head. It's like, all right, that's that voice. Disregard.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, yeah. And so your question was about what is the advice for going deeper in the journey? Is that the question?

[Sponsor]

Yeah.

[Natalie]

Going further in the journey and further into the journey. Legally?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Legally?

[Michael Pollan]

Legally. Well, there is a way to do it legally. Well, there are two ways. One is there are many, many trials going on around this country, universities and other institutions. And you can go on trials.gov and search psilocybin or MDMA and you may find a trial that you qualify for. The other way is to go to Oregon or Colorado. These are two states that have made guided psilocybin experiences. I can't say legal because it's still a federal crime, but it's state legal and fairly safe from, from a legal point of view. And there are people there who are have to get licenses as guides. The growers are licensed. The facilities where they're administered is licensed. So you could search both those states and those would be places where you could have a legal guided experience.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you, Natalie.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, thank you, Natalie.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you. And thanks to your kids who squealed when they heard you were talking to Michael.

[Michael Pollan]

Give them my best.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you.

[Narrator]

One of my favorite questions to ask on this podcast is coming up, we're going to talk to Michael Pollan about what it means for him to live a well lived life. He always makes you see things in a new way. You'll want to hear his answer next. Thank you.

[Sponsor]

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[Narrator]

For listening to us today. To the Oprah Podcast. Welcome back to our conversation on psychedelics with Michael Pollan.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In the book you write that you had, you quote, you say some kind of spiritual experience. Do you think that there. Obviously I'm just asking the question, but I already know the answer. There is a difference between a religious spiritual experience and one induced by a drug's chemical impact on the brain. And that's the first question. And does the spiritual experience depend upon what your religious belief is or is not?

[Michael Pollan]

You know, I always saw myself as not a spiritual person. And I also had a misunderstanding of what spiritual meant.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I was going to say, how could you be that when you're so connected to plants?

[Michael Pollan]

I know. Well, because I thought spirit to be spiritual meant believing in the supernatural. And I was, you know, not, I was very grounded. You know, I had a very material view of reality. But I realized that was wrong that you can be spiritual without believing in the supernatural and that the essence of spiritual is connection, deep, profound connection with something other than yourself. And so when I redefine it that way, yeah, these were powerful spiritual experiences. And I came to understand the opposite of spiritual is not material or materialistic. The opposite of spiritual is egotistical.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The ego so darn true, that is.

[Michael Pollan]

The so darn true stands in the way of our spiritual development.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I think we have to explain what ego is because until 2008, I always thought that ego was, you know, you were being arrogant or you were, you know, overly self assured. Now I know it's that voice in the head that is constantly going, we all have it that it's constantly. It's a, you know, a gajillion thoughts a day judging and it's measuring and it's. Yeah, it's that part of you that is separate from the real you.

[Michael Pollan]

And it's important to us. There's a reason we evolve these egos. You know, it gets books written, it gets TV shows produced, but it also gets in the way of connecting to others.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you think it's possible to. That we can reach these same levels of revelations and consciousness and understandings about our connection to the universe, to ourselves and to each other without psychedelics?

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, I think people do it through meditation. Yeah, I think psychedelics in some way are a shortcut. A lot of people have trouble meditating. They're not sure they're doing it right. They can't, they can't, they can't.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And if you got anxiety, you can't even sit still long enough to do it.

[Michael Pollan]

That's right. Or if you have ocd, you're going to have intrusive thoughts when you're meditating. So I think it kind of. It kind of breaks people through to a place where they can meditate successfully, but without question. And people have had these mystical spiritual experiences without drugs. Experiences of nature can do it, experiences of art can do it. The mystical experience, which is what this technically is called in the literature, can be approached from a lot. There are a lot of different doors. Psychedelics are just one of them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm really grateful to be able to talk to you today because first of all, you're so smart and you've written so many books about what our society is collectively wrestling with. And I'm wondering, actually, I was at a seminar this summer and the head of Stanford was talking about a class that they were gonna start there. And the class was gonna be called what does it Mean to have a well Lived Life? And I thought, wow, I would love to teach that class. I'd love to teach that class and be a part of that class. And so I love that as a question, what do you. When you. With all the things that you now know as you sit here about to enter a new decade. Come on in, the water's fine. Come on. It's gonna be all right.

[Bob Parsons]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What to you defines a well lived life?

[Michael Pollan]

I think being present for it. We spend so much of our time worrying, thinking about the future, thinking about the past, that we let the present go by. And for me, that's one of the. Not to say I've mastered this at all, but my psychedelic experience and which has been followed by a meditation practice. That's kind of like psychedelics are not a practice. You're not going to do it that many times. But you need a practice to reinforce it and meditation.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And for some people, it seems to be the tool that helps you open the door.

[Michael Pollan]

Exactly, exactly. But after the door is open, you want to keep this, this way of thinking and these memories alive. One of the things I meditate about very often are psychedelic experiences. I've had the stories of you and they're endlessly. You can replay them endlessly. One of the interesting things about psychedelic experience is it's not like dreams, which are hard to remember. You remember these. These experiences are indelible. I can summon images from my experiences on psychedelics.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I see your parents as the trees. Yeah, listen, you wrote that so vividly. I see your parents as the trees. Okay, well, thank you. Michael's book how to Change youe Mind, as well as all of his other thought provoking books are available wherever you buy your books. So thank you to all of our guests for zooming in here with us with your own fascinating experiences on psychedelics. I think the fact that Bob lived for 49 years, and I love that line, Bob, when you said, and I finally came home, I finally came home. I thank you all for listening and it's my hope that these conversations help to inform and enhance your life in some way. You know, I've always tried to go through life with a curious, open mind. So I thank you all for taking the time to spend your time with us here and be sure if you can, to subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube. That is, if you don't want to miss an episode. And follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Go well, bye for now. How to change your mind. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.