Domestic Violence Crisis Now Impacts 1 in 2 Women, with Oprah and author Rachel Louise Snyder

Summary

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The Oprah Podcast Summary

Episode Title:

Domestic Violence Crisis Now Impacts 1 in 2 Women
Guests: Oprah Winfrey, author Rachel Louise Snyder, survivor Susan and family, family of recent murder victims
Air Date: June 23, 2026

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Overview

This powerful episode confronts the staggering rise in domestic violence affecting women, with new data revealing that 1 in 2 women in the US will experience sexual violence, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime. Host Oprah Winfrey, known for decades of advocacy on this issue, is joined by award-winning journalist and author Rachel Louise Snyder to discuss why—despite increased awareness—the crisis has worsened. The conversation includes stories from survivors, the impacts on families, and systemic challenges. Key focus is placed on shifting the blame from victims to perpetrators and redefining domestic violence as “intimate terrorism.”

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

The Shocking Statistics and Historical Context

• Prevalence: One in two women (50%) now experience domestic violence, up from one in four in the 1980s ([00:00]).
• Danger in the Home: “Research shows that the most dangerous place for a woman is right inside her own home.” – Oprah [00:45]
• Pregnancy Danger: Homicide is a leading cause of death for pregnant or postpartum women.

Beyond Bruises: Redefining Domestic Violence

• Book Title Significance: Rachel’s book, No Visible Bruises, refers to the often-invisible nature of abuse: “All of these don’t require physical. They don’t require a punch or a kick or any kind of bruise at all.” – Rachel [03:29]
• Forms of Abuse: Includes psychological, emotional, coercion, financial control, and stalking — not just physical violence.
• Early Warning Signs: Abuse often starts subtly—jealousy, isolation, controlling behavior, belittling—seen by some as “love” or “flattery” at first, before escalating [04:47].

“If a guy shows up on the lawn with an orchestra or a boombox and he’s playing, that’s not romantic. That’s stalking.” – Rachel [05:19]

Cultural and Systemic Barriers

• The Wrong Question: Society asks, “Why did she stay?” instead of “Why is he violent?” – [12:24]; “What did she do to prepare for her safety?” is a more relevant question for systems to ask [14:11].
• Shame and Social Pressure: Cultural narratives tell women to keep families together, causing abused mothers to fear creating "broken homes" [15:00, 16:12].

“As if a home with one adult abusing another adult isn’t broken.” – Oprah [16:10]

The Danger Trajectory

• Strangulation as a Red Flag: 60% of victims are strangled—a major predictor for possible homicide [17:32].
• No End Date: Domestic violence isn’t like war or disaster—it can resurface even years later, sometimes with tragic consequences [49:40].

The Abuser’s Perspective and Rehabilitation

• Surprising Normalcy: Abusers are often seen as “charming, funny, educated.” Abuse knows no stereotype [19:05–20:06].
• Addiction Analogy: Some abusers compare their violence to an addiction—a learned response to handling pain and rage [21:08].
• Change is Hard—but Possible: Law enforcement may be skeptical, but men in intervention programs believe in change, provided they seek help [24:40].

Survivor Voices: The Personal Is Universal

Susan’s Story

• Video Evidence: Susan’s abuse was captured on home video, filmed by her own son under duress. “For more than 40 of those minutes, Susan stands in the same spot desperately trying to avoid another beating.” – [29:09]
• The Process of Abuse: “That didn’t happen to me overnight. That happened to me over time. It starts out with very little things. It starts out in the guise of love.” – Susan [35:38]
• Generational Impact: Susan’s son, Desmond, discusses lifelong trauma and struggles with fear: “There’s so much fear that I have in my body... my childhood set me up to accumulate a lot of fear throughout life.” – Desmond [42:26]
• Hope & Message: “You can have a good life after abuse... Strangulation is one of them. You were talking about strangulation earlier and that was a misdemeanor... now many states have made it a felony.” – Susan [43:39–44:10]

Recent Ohio Tragedy: Spencer and Monique Tepe

• Lethality of Stalking and Obsession: Monique’s ex-husband, after years of threats, murdered Monique and her husband, Spencer, even though eight years had passed since their breakup [46:51].
• Systemic Weakness: Restraining orders are not “bulletproof.” After five years, even restraining orders expire regardless of ongoing risk [54:01].
• Challenge to Society: “Why is it on the woman to protect herself?” – Maddie [54:07]

Preventing and Responding to Abuse

• Create Safe Dialogue: First step is to “open up a non-judgmental space for them to talk” [57:18].
• Change the Conversation: Normalize talking about this in book clubs, friend groups, workplaces [57:53].
• Best Support: Don’t pressure victims; just listen, reduce shame, offer resources, believe them [58:00].

“I think you... open up a non-judgmental space for them to talk because it takes a lot of years for someone to be able to extricate themselves from that situation.” – Rachel [57:18]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Love doesn’t hurt.” – Oprah [14:56]
• “Domestic violence… makes it feel like he slapped her. They were arguing... It does not articulate the terrorism nor the amount of devastation and fear a woman lives in.” – Oprah [10:01]
• “There is a softening whenever you add the word domestic onto anything. It’s coded as feminine. It’s coded as female.” – Rachel [10:27]
• “Why is it on the woman to protect herself?” – Maddie [54:07]
• “Your willingness to liberate yourself allowed a lot of other women to get free.” – Oprah, to Susan [44:34]
• “You can have a good life after abuse.” – Susan [43:38]

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Key Timestamps of Important Segments

• The statistics and why things have worsened: [00:00–02:25]
• Defining “No Visible Bruises” and types of abuse: [02:27–05:28]
• Redefining domestic violence as terrorism: [05:57–07:03]
• On the cultural history of abuse, normalization: [08:16–10:01]
• Michelle Monson Mosier case (Book story): [11:38–14:11]
• Victim-blaming and the barriers to leaving: [14:11–15:51]
• Why “broken homes” are misunderstood: [15:00–16:15]
• The impact of strangulation, lethality: [17:32–18:53]
• Men who abuse: their perspectives & the challenge of change: [19:05–25:52]
• Survivor Susan’s story & her son’s trauma: [27:05–44:10]
• Recent murder case: systemic failure, endless risk: [46:51–54:28]
• How to support a loved one experiencing abuse: [57:18–58:07]

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Final Takeaways

• Tragedy is increasing, not receding—progress in awareness has not translated to safety for women.
• “Domestic violence” is better named “intimate terrorism” to reflect its power, control, and impact.
• Victims should not bear the responsibility for violence; society must hold perpetrators accountable and rebuild support systems.
• Open, non-judgmental conversation is the critical first step for anyone hoping to support a victim or survivor.
• Every story shared is a potential life saved—awareness, compassion, and systemic change are urgently needed.

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Resources

• No Visible Bruises: What We Don’t Know About Domestic Violence Can Kill Us by Rachel L. Snyder.
• If you or someone you know is in danger, reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline or local services.

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Listen to the full episode for these insights and more. If this touched you or could help someone you know, please share the link—Oprah notes, “it may just save their life” [46:33].

Transcript

[Oprah Winfrey]

One in two women in the United States will experience sexual violence, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetimes. Research shows that the most dangerous place for a woman is right inside her own home. I had a conversation with this woman, Susan, who was a mother of three who had endured 17 years of physical and emotional abuse by her husband. We all have asked this question over the years, why do you stay? Why do you stay? And you say we should be asking the question, why is he violent? Hi and welcome to the Oprah Podcast. You know, over the years, I've been talking about domestic violence for women. We did more than 120Oprah shows on domestic violence. I first started talking about it in 1986. That's when the year that the show was launched. And back then, the stats in 1986 were one out of four women were impacted by some form of domestic violence. And now 2026, after all of that talking and all of those years and all that we know, and women's self awakening and self empowerment, things have not gotten better. They've actually gotten worse. The current stats are 1 in 2. 1 in 2 women in the United States will experience sexual violence, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime. That means if you're listening and you're not one, you know somebody who is or will be. This is so hard to believe and so unacceptable for us as a civil society and tough to hear. Research shows that the most dangerous place for a woman is is right inside her own home. And that the leading cause of death for women during pregnancy or postpartum is homicide. Pretty shocking, right? So to understand the scope and impact of these terrible statistics, I am joined by the author of the award winning and bestselling book no Visible. What We Don't Know About Domestic Violence Can Kill Us. Journalist Rachel Louise Snyder. Welcome, Rachel. Thank you for being here with me.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Thank you for having me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, what is the significance, Rachel, of the title no Visible Bruises? I love that title.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

I think that we really, all of the systems that we have created prioritize physical violence. We in particular prioritize marks that we can see. But a lot of domestic violence is psychological, emotional coercion. You mentioned stalking in your opening. Things like financial control. All of these are forms of domestic violence.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Financial control, absolutely.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Financial control.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's a new one. Because I think a lot of women do not think that their husband having control over the finances and belittling them for spending or, you know, it's one thing to say, you know, we have a family budget But I hear that women, young women, are being belittled for their spending or wanting to spend time with their friends. Yeah, but that is also a form of abuse.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Absolutely, it is. So all of these don't require physical. They don't require a punch or a kick or any kind of bruise at all.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's why it's no visible bruises.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I think it's so amazing as you're saying this, I know that there's somebody listening who is just under the belief or feeling that it's not so bad.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

I mean, you don't have physical freedom. There's a whole bunch of activity that happens around domestic violence that we don't really know how to calculate. And those are things like, I don't want you to have friends over because your friends don't like me. Or I don't want to go to your family's home because your family doesn't like me. Which, by the way, may be true. Yeah, right. The family may not like him because

[Oprah Winfrey]

he's abusing her, or they sense that something's off.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, you know, I see the way men on the street look at you when you wear those miniskirts, so I don't think you should wear those miniskirts. There's all these kind of small slights and small degradations that happen before anybody is ever kicked or punched during the

[Oprah Winfrey]

many, many, many, many years and times that I was doing shows talking about this. I think in the beginning, a lot of women see it as flattery. Oh, he loves me. He doesn't want me to. You know, he's jealous of me. And they are flattered by that. And then it just increases totally. And so.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So my thing is. And. And you know this, too, because you have, you know, spent eight years interviewing victims and law enforcement and abusers themselves, that the moment it starts, that's when you should put it in check.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Oh, yeah. I tell my daughter, if a guy shows up on the lawn with an orchestra or a boombox and he's playing, that's not romantic. That's stalking.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Go away. Right, yeah. So as I said, you spent all this time interviewing victims in law enforcement and abusers themselves, and you say, if you get nothing else from this today, I hope we can make the shift in our culture. You say the term domestic violence, which I've used over the years, everybody uses, does not accurately describe what happens to women. What does. What is the term we should be using?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Terrorism. I call it terrorism. Sometimes I call it intimate Terrorism.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Intimate partner terrorism.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah. I don't call it that because it's not always from the partner. Right. It could be from a brother, it could be from a parent. There's all kinds of abuse that goes on behind closed doors that isn't always just from the partner. A child can be abusive to, you know, a parent. So the key is the word terrorism. If you think about someone who. You think about walking on eggshells. As a writer, I hate cliches, but I. But it's a useful one.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

You walk on eggshells. You want to make sure that dinner is on the table at six o'.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Clock.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

You want to make sure that the kids aren't being loud. You want to make sure that everything is in place so that you can ward off whatever violence and you're walking

[Oprah Winfrey]

on eggshells and you don't know which one is going to slightly crack that day and send the person off on a tangent that you couldn't even imagine.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah, it's absolutely unpredictable. And that's part of the point, is that unpredictability is that I am the one in control and I am the one who says, you do this or you don't do this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Are you surprised as I was surprised when I read your book. I was surprised that I've been talking about it all these years and there've been multiple articles about it and people have talked about it and movies about it and that the stats were 1 out of 4 in the 80s and now they're 1 out of 2. Now. Are you surprised that we've gone backwards?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

I'm not surprised by that. And I'll tell you what, with all

[Oprah Winfrey]

that we know, with all of our self empowerment and all that we know.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

I know, I know there's this woman in my book says we're leaping backwards at an obstacle. It's such a telling line. I mean, there is a positive way to look at it actually, but just like inflict a tiny bit of hope, which is that I think there are more resources known now. Certainly in 1986 there was no national domestic violence hotline. So there's more reporting of it now. But I'm also not surprised because there is a backlash going on right now. And I think. I guess I just. I sort of expected it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, so you say for most of human history, I was surprised by this too. I knew it, but I hadn't absorbed it, that for most of human history, society didn't even recognize domestic violence as being wrong. I mean that. And still in other parts of the world. It's perfectly legal to beat your wife. Beat your spouse.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in fact, it's a sign of your status and your. In your social circle, like, that you control.

[Narrator/Voiceover]

Yeah.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

I mean, I. When I. When I. When I wrote this book, part of why I wrote it was that I misunderstood so much about domestic violence myself. First of all, I never thought about it. Right, right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's not something you think about unless you're in it well or know somebody who's in it.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

And I. My father was abusive to me growing up, and I didn't term that abuse. I didn't know that that was abuse. And in some ways, the best thing he did was kick me out of the house when I was 16, because I suddenly was able to see that what was going on in my house was not normal. When I was first introduced to domestic violence, I had been a journalist traveling the world. I did all kinds of human rights abuse stories. Gang rapes and, you know, child marriages and domestic violence sat at the core of all of those stories. But I was like, but that's not my story. My story is about gang rape. I mean, I. I had blinders.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

With all the privilege. I mean, okay, getting kicked out wasn't a privilege. But later in my life, I had, you know, education. I was able to access education and make a living and all that stuff. And I thought, oh, but I. But I'm not doing a story on domestic violence. I'm doing a story on, you know,

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think the word domestic violence also just marginalizes the experience that so many women, because it makes it feel like he slapped her. They were arguing. There was an argument that went on. And, you know, it does not in any way articulate the terrorism that you spoke of, nor the amount of devastation and fear that a woman lives in.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

There is a softening whenever you add the word domestic onto anything. It's coded as feminine. It's coded as female.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button, and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to Come that we're excited about. So thank you for watching and listening.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Thank you for listening to the OPRAH Podcast. When we come back, award winning journalist Rachel Louise Snyder shares the harrowing story of a 23 year old woman killed by her own husband. Welcome back to the OPRAH Podcast. I'm talking with best selling author Rachel Louise Snyder. Her book no Visible Bruises opened up a new conversation around domestic violence and the rising abuse that happens behind closed doors. Let's get back to it.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

You know, there's a story in my book of a woman named Michelle Monson Mosier.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You start with her.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah, I start with her. I actually kind of dedicate the first third of the book to her. She is killed at age 23 by her husband Rocky.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Not only is she killed, she's killed. And the two children are killed.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

And their two children are killed. And one of the things he did in the months before he killed her was they lived in Billings, Montana. He went to the outskirts of Billings and he got a rattlesnake, poisonous rattlesnake, and he kept it in a hexagonal cage in their living room. And he would say to her, if you do anything to piss me off, I'm gonna put this snake in our bed. This stick in your bed or in the shower with you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

No visible bruises necessary. Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You wrote that so profoundly that I just thought, wow, you're living with a rattlesnake in your house. In your house, and you're willing to live with a rattlesnake in your house. But then you brought up a point because we all have asked this question over the years, why do you stay? Why do you stay? And you say we should be asking the question, why is he violent?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah. Yeah. I've even learned so much since I wrote that book. I keep learning and keep learning. And I think I would even expand that now to say that needs to be two questions. Why is he violent? And not why didn't she leave? But what did she do? And in the case of Michelle, so we, we, the research will say it takes a lot of. What did you do?

[Oprah Winfrey]

To try to try to get herself out.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because every woman knows that you can't make a sudden move, that it's a process to try to get yourself out.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah. With this vision of like leaving is like, you know, a suitcase packed at the door. Go to Vegas. Right. Or whatever. But like, you know, they, you think about their kids might be in sports, they might be taking care of elderly parents, they might have pets, which you can't Bring to a shelter. Maybe you don't want to leave your family's china at home. So there's all these barriers. You can't just enroll your kids in another school district without the father signing on or the other partner signing on. But in Michelle's case, and I think her case is fairly typical, there were all kinds of things that she did throughout the years to prepare for her freedom, safety measures that she took. So, for example, Rocky didn't allow her to work, but he did allow her to take classes. And the way she framed it was, if I take nursing classes, one of their children had pretty significant health problems. If I take nursing classes, I won't need to bring her to the emergency room as much as. And I'll be home more. I'll be under your thumb more. Right. She was really smart about it. In her case, she knew she wanted to get a nursing degree so that she could afford to raise those kids. That's just one of the things she did. She also went to her father, who owned the house they were renting, and had her name put on the deed to the house so that she could get Rocky out. Yeah, our systems, judges, police, whatever, we don't ask the question, what did you do to prepare for your safety? What safety planning did you do? We ask, why didn't you leave? And just imagine any other crime where we're like, the impetus to change is on the person, the victim of that crime. Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But what I want women to do is to see the signs early. I mean, one of the things that I said for years and years and years on the show, and I think it did have an impact because I know a lot of people have since told me that they left when they realized that love doesn't hurt. Love doesn't hurt. And you allude to this in your. Literally in the preface. I think this is so profound. You say, we live in a culture in which we are told our children must have a father, that a relationship is the ultimate goal, that family is the bedrock of society, that it's better to stay and work out one's issues in private than to leave and raise kids as a single mother. Michelle, as you were just speaking of, Michelle Monson Moshe said this over and over when she insisted to her mother that she didn't want to raise her children in a broken home. A broken home. As if a home with one adult abusing another adult isn't broken. As if there are degrees of brokenness. The messages are insidious and they are consistent. I think that's so profound that women don't realize that it's already broken.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Right?

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's already broken.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

It's already broken.

[Oprah Winfrey]

He's hitting you in front of your children. It's already broken, right?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you think women are still being raised to think this way and how do we change that narrative?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah, I think they are still being raised. I was raised to believe that the world was a dangerous place, that the world was out to get me. And it wasn't until I was in the world that I realized, no, my house was where the danger was, as

[Oprah Winfrey]

it is for a lot of women.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah. You know, part of the issue is that we don't live in a world where you can walk out the door and be free of somebody who abuses you. We have technological ease right now for stalking. I mean, you know, there's all kinds of ways you can stalk somebody. We have social media, which, you know, if you're on social media, as most people are, and we have a court system that really wants to make sure both parents are in a child's life because they believe that it's going to be better for the child. And probably most of the time it is, but not when there's violence.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So research reveals that 60% of domestic violence victims are strangled, which dramatically increases the chance of violence in the home. Why is strangulation often the last step before homicide?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

That's a really. It's such an important question. I didn't. I didn't fully understand that strangulation was a different marker of dangerousness. It's different than a kick or a punch. It is often the penultimate act before homicide. It carries two different. Two different potential injuries. One is literally cutting off the airway.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The airway.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

So oxygen to the brain.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And then I read in no visible bruises, that it also. You're more. More likely to have a stroke.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It often Brain damage or blood clot.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah. And of course, we don't have emergency rooms that regularly scan victims of domestic violence for head trauma in the way that we do, you know, car accident victims or kids with sports. And, you know, it is a particular. It is a particularly gendered act because women don't just don't have the hand strength for strangulation.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So 60% of the cases, people have been strangled.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You spent years conducting interviews and sitting in on group sessions with abusers. And what surprised you about the men you encountered, the men who were the abusers?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

The men who were abusers were charming and funny. You know, I've mentioned my Father. My father was also the guy that took my daughter to the supermalt to walk around. It was like the grandpa granddaughter special thing. He was the guy who knew every woman's name, who can handed out free samples at the grocery store and their kids names and their life stories. He was wonderful and charming and funny and also abusive.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

But I didn't even. I didn't recognize that I had grown up with that until. And I'm ashamed to say it wasn't this book that I realized that it was the book that came after this and those guys. And I've sat in on prisons, I've sat in on abuser intervention groups. It really shook me to think, oh, you're funny guys. You're smart guys.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I know.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

You're educated guys.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I know, I know, I know. I remember having an aha moment years ago when I was talking to this man named Zeke, and I remember walking into the room with all these guys who, you know, were in this program supposedly for rehabbing, and they all looked so like normal guys.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Normal.

[Narrator/Voiceover]

Yeah.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so let's take a look at Zeke. He talks about why he was physically abusive.

[Zeke (Abuser Interviewee)]

Take a look.

[Narrator/Voiceover]

What does it take to change this kind of behavior? What does it take?

[Zeke (Abuser Interviewee)]

Oh, that's an easy question. That's probably the easiest question so far. Learning to tolerate pain and learning to manage emotions that don't feel good. And you're not going to always going to get the reinforcement that you think you need because you're dealing with an outside person who has the right not to play the game with you. Even if it's beneficial for both people. They. They don't have to go along with you. They don't even have to see this as a problem.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Okay.

[Narrator/Voiceover]

Let me tell you how profound that is, I think, because that is the same thing I do to keep myself from overeating. That is the same thing you do when you want to stop yourself from taking the next drink and being alcoholic.

[Zeke (Abuser Interviewee)]

Exactly.

[Narrator/Voiceover]

It is the same thing you do if you are addicted to any kind of, you know, behavior that is destructive to you. You have to allow yourself to feel the pain and allow yourself to deal with the emotion that you automatically would repress or overlook or deny yourself. What you just did was you put it in a context so that everybody can see that what you used to do with your anger lashing out is the same thing that everybody does.

[Zeke (Abuser Interviewee)]

Exactly.

[Narrator/Voiceover]

That's how brilliant that is. Because everybody does it. But when somebody does it in a form that you don't do or we don't. Do we see that as being those

[Zeke (Abuser Interviewee)]

people who do that?

[Narrator/Voiceover]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's so interesting. He had said to me, either before that or after that, every time he hit his spouse, he would tell himself this, it will never happen again. It will never happen again. I won't do it again. This is the last time, this is the last time. And feel terrible afterwards. And I thought that's what every addict feels. And so I was wondering, did, in

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

your

[Oprah Winfrey]

interviews and conversations with men who've abused, does it feel like an addiction for them? Does it feel like something they can't control?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

It's complicated. I do compare it to addiction sometimes, but it's an imperfect comparison because, you know, addiction has so much neuroscience behind it and violence I think is socio cultural. But I, I was able to, I did a story for, for the New York Times a couple of years ago on this violence hotline in the uk. We don't have anything like it in the US nationally, but they have a national violence hotline, not domestic violence hotline. So it's for people who are using violence and want to stop. So the police will give out this number when they go on calls or child protective services. And they let me listen in for about two or three months to these phone calls. And they're all anonymous. So the. It's 85% men who call and they don't, you know, they don't give their name. And because they're not, because they're anonymous, they don't have to perform. And what was amazing to me to listen to them was how many were calling up, first of all, sobbing. How often do you hear men cry? Not very often. And they were saying, I don't want to be like this. I don't want to. I don't want to be this person. But they had no sort of training on exactly what Zeke said on how to manage their pain. Their pain, Their rage. Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Their rage.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

And I think the more interesting programs that I've sat in on for, for people who use violence are ones in which they're able to connect. Not just the, the emotional, like sort of like the emotional constellation that's happening, but the ones where they can actually notice their physical body, what they look like, how intimidating they look, their voices. Those are, those are ones that really where you really see aha moments for

[Oprah Winfrey]

these guys, I think. And also in no visible bruises. One of the things you talk about is when you ask law enforcement, do you think that men can be rehabilitated from violence and change? They say no. And women who are abused say they hope so, but the men themselves say yes. And I think yes is the answer. But it takes a lot of work. And I think for any woman who's living with an abusive husband, unless that person or an abusive spouse or partner or brother or whomever, if that person isn't willing to seek help for it, they're not going to resolve it on their own. I do not think you can resolve.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

No.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

That's absolutely the key.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's not something can be resolved. That's where you just decide, one day I'm not going to do it anymore.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Absolutely. That's the. I think that's where the addiction parallels, learns behavior.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's learned behavior. And that's how you react. That's how you react.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

And they have to see the benefit in their own lives. They have to say, oh, my life is better when my children aren't scared of me. My life is better when my wife is happy and not cowering, for example. And the people who are able to see that are the people who are actually able to see.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Isn't that hard to see? Because aren't most of them narcissists?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so they love the power and the control and the I'm the one. If you're not gonna be with me, you're not gonna be with anybody.

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

Right?

[Podcast Host/Producer]

After a quick break, we catch up

[Oprah Winfrey]

with a woman I met on the

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Oprah show whose story is seared in my memory. Susan endured 17 years of physical and emotional abuse. Her husband even forced her then 13 year old son to record the abuse on camera.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We'll be right back.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Your call has been forwarded to voicemail.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hi, this is Zoe Deutsch and Nick Robinson.

[Nick Robinson]

Our brand new movie Voicemails for Isabel is all about those little moments that feel like the universe is looking out, feeling homesick. Then your sister calls hearing that perfect song exactly when you need it.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Please stay.

[Nick Robinson]

Sometimes life rigs things in our favor, like learning about your new favorite rom com voicemails from Isabel, now playing only on Netflix.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Hi and welcome back to a difficult but important conversation about domestic violence. A silent epidemic impacting more women than you may have realized.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, one of the stories, you know, I did 4,561 shows. I've interviewed over 35,000 people one on one. And so a lot of things get buried in my memory. But there is one woman's story that nearly 20 years ago I had a conversation with this woman, Susan, who was a mother of three who had endured 17 years of physical and emotional abuse by her husband. Her story was especially shocking. It shocked our whole audience because her then husband Rachel forced her 13 year old son to videotape the violence. So there we see her son on camera filming it. And I want to give warning that this footage is physical and verbal abuse and may be difficult to watch.

[Narrator/Voiceover]

This is Susan on her wedding day 17 years ago.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The arms of the man she believed

[Narrator/Voiceover]

was the love of her life carried

[Oprah Winfrey]

her across the threshold. Now I want you to take a

[Narrator/Voiceover]

look at Susan four years ago on

[Oprah Winfrey]

June 23, 2003, one day after the

[Narrator/Voiceover]

video that you're about to see was taped.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Keep in mind that the images in today's show are not suitable for young children. They're not suitable for anyone.

[Susan's Abusive Husband]

You play those stupid games with me, I'll knock your teeth out of your face. You hear me?

[Interviewer/Moderator]

It's the nightmare we hear happens behind closed doors, but rarely if ever seen.

[Oprah Winfrey]

She playing this game with me.

[Susan's Abusive Husband]

I'm gonna knock your head across that wall.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

In a rage, Susan Steele's husband emotionally and verbally attacks her in front of their children.

[Susan's Abusive Husband]

Don't sit over here talking about you don't wanna see yourself get beat in front of the kid, but you act

[Oprah Winfrey]

like a in front of the kids.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Her husband even commands their 13 year old son to shoot the abuse on home video.

[Susan's Abusive Husband]

Zoom in on that Heflin.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

The videotape records 51 minutes of fear. For more than 40 of those minutes, Susan stands in the same spot desperately trying to avoid another beating.

[Susan's Abusive Husband]

And just you standing there talking stupid like that pisses me off. Cause you should be on your knees apologizing, you stupid effort.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Susan says simply asking her husband if he'd like a sandwich. Set him off.

[Susan's Abusive Husband]

Why did you deliberately come up here?

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

And with my dad?

[Interviewer/Moderator]

With her oldest son, 13, on the other side of the Linge and her eight year old son also in the room room. Susan's husband calls her stupid 23 times. Heer 28 times, among other dehumanizing names.

[Susan's Abusive Husband]

Is what you are total.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

I don't need to be stupid. I don't mean to act stupid. I don't want to act stupid.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I don't when I'm sorry.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

The abuse then turns from words and threats to fists and an explosion of violence.

[Susan's Abusive Husband]

You shouldn't have even been with me all these years. Or causing this like you doing all these years. You shouldn't have been doing that.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

For 10 horrifying minutes, Susan endures a merciless beating. Repeatedly punched, kicked and slapped.

[Susan's Abusive Husband]

Look at the way you look look at the way you look. You could say something dumb things to me. You know, you have a nerve about your stupid. You have a stupid nerve about your stupid self. And you don't learn after I beat

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

your all the time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You do not learn.

[Susan's Abusive Husband]

Get back up on the bed and try it again.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, after we aired Susan's story on the Oprah show, operators from the National Domestic Violence Hotline reported that they received three times the number of phone calls than normal. And they had to, you know, hire extra people. Susan now joins us via Zoom. Hi, Susan.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Hi. Hi, how are you?

[Oprah Winfrey]

It is so good to see you again. Thank you for talking with us. Thank you for talking with us. As I said, I've done thousands of shows and thousands of interviews, but your story and the story of your boys, you know, always remains with me. And anytime I talk about this subject of domestic violence or as Rachel has said, the word is really terrorism. Don't you think that's a better word? Terrorism?

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Absolutely. That's the word I use that word when I speak to, you know, across the country. Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So how are you doing? How are you doing and how are your children doing?

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

We're doing great. We're doing great.

[Rob (Maddie's Husband)]

Really?

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Yes, absolutely. I have a great life. I, you know, still do things to make sure that I'm okay and we're

[Oprah Winfrey]

really well and the boys are well.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Yes, yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Because I always worried about your son who was filming that, how that would affect his life, affect his view of himself statistically.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

My children should be either in prison or dead or addicted to something. None of them are that at all. Yeah, they're all very well, some have families and they are great.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So in 2004, your ex husband was sentenced to 36 years in prison, the longest sentence ever at the time imposed for non lethal domestic violence in New York State at that time. And understand that he was released in 2021 after serving 17 years of that sentence. Corre, how has his release impacted you and your family?

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

What that does is it sets you back for a moment, but it life goes on. You can't fall back into a person that allows him to still control what happens in my life. And, you know, cowering, being fearful and worried, those kind of things allow him to still have control. So he can't have that with me. So you do the things that you need to do to make sure that you protect yourself, that you stay safe and you live your life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you live your life. And you now go around speaking and talking to other women about this.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

I speak to Anyone. I do a lot of law enforcement training. I do colleges, I do the military. Community responders. Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And what do you think when you see yourself? I'm sure you're not going around looking at that tape, but you certainly have a memory of yourself in that position, in that docile, subservient position. What do you think of yourself and what do you want to say to that woman in that tape?

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

It's difficult for me to look back and see myself in that place because before I was her, I was a, you know, I didn't have a self esteem issue. I was okay. And then to see myself like that, I mean, I was really. At that point, nothing about me was left. You become part of their world. Their world is the only world. And so everything about me, you know, my opinions were all the same as his opinions always, that I could never be my own individual self because whenever I was, that was deemed wrong.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Can you share with us? Because Rachel has talked about in no visible bruises and shared a bit here about how it starts with the controlling, with the don't want to. I don't want you to drive. I don't want you to work. I don't want. I know you were working. And one of the reasons why he was convicted is because your coworker saw you, you know, coming in bruised and it was your co worker who kept a record of what had happened that actually allowed him to be put away. So tell us, how did it start? Do you remember the first time?

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

It eases. The control eases in because I, when I was in court in the trial, that was the first time I had seen the video since that night that the video was recorded, it was filmed. And I sat there and by then I had gotten some good information. And so I looked at myself and I was, you know, I would say, susan, how did you get there? I just couldn't. It was very difficult. And I thought about it for a long time and what I realized is that that didn't happen to me overnight. That happened to me over time. It starts out with very little things. It starts out in the guise of love. You know, sometimes there are little things that they'll say. They're doing this to protect you. They're doing this to make sure you're okay doing it because I love you, I want you to be good. And what it does, though, is it allows the control to creep in. As you said Oprah earlier, you think, oh, my God, he's, you know, he loves me so much. You know, he just wants me to be okay. And that's how it begins.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And every time it happened, you think, maybe it won't happen again. Or did you reach a point where you realize it's always going to happen again?

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

No, I thought that if I could fix me. Because he was saying that I was the problem.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

I was the one that was doing stupid things. I was the one that couldn't get it right. And so my thought process was, if I fix me, everything will go back to be the way that it used to be. Because in all these relationships, all of us have good memories from the be. You know, in the beginning, when they are Prince Charming. So we think if we can fix ourselves, then everything will go back to be that. And. But what happens is, you know, they. They tell you what you're doing wrong, and as soon as you do it the way they want it, they move the goalpost.

[Zeke (Abuser Interviewee)]

Yeah.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Then they. Well, it's not right this time, you know, because of something else. So you're never going to be able to get it right. But I didn't know that then.

[Rob (Maddie's Husband)]

No.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. Well, you know, I remember talking to you and also talking to your son, Dazmond, who was just eight years old when that videotape was made. Dasmon joins us. It's nice to see you again here, too. Hey, look at you grow, man.

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

Wow.

[Rob (Maddie's Husband)]

It's been about a decade, right?

[Zeke (Abuser Interviewee)]

Wow.

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

How you been?

[Oprah Winfrey]

How you been?

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

I've been all right. Just, you know, growing up day by day, you know what I'm saying?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, my.31 now. What a shot. Oh, my gosh. We got to put your little boy face up there compared to now. Thanks for being here. What are your memories of that time? What are your memories of that time? Was that a tough time for you?

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

Like, I blocked out a lot of stuff, so there's not, like. There's some. There's some good times, of course, that I remember, but, like, like, all the family meetings, all the. Just barrage of constant stuff in my mom, it's like even. It's been a while since I've seen the video. And so, like, even looking at the video now, I'm like, I used to get so mad when I'd see the video and feel guilt and shame and, like, so many different emotions. Now I look at him and I'm like, yo, you. My father looks so stupid in that video. He looks so stupid saying all that, which hurts because that's my father. And I'm like, why? And, like, of all the trauma. Yeah.

[Susan's Abusive Husband]

I know.

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

He had in his childhood. And all that, it's still like, man, the ways that your. Your mind doesn't make sense. And I can see it in his expression and in his eyes. I'm like, the ways that you learn to be a man don't make sense, but you can't see that at all. So it's like, it's. This is the first time that I've actually seen the video and seen it in that filter.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

It used to be just a whole bunch of my personal emotions. Knowing that I was there, couldn't do anything.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Did you feel helpless as a little boy for your mom? Did you feel helpless?

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

Shoot, like I was sitting up there under a blanket, just singing to myself. And I shut down as many of my senses when a lot of stuff was happening as I could.

[Zeke (Abuser Interviewee)]

Yeah.

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

And so even then, that's why I don't really have amazing memories. But I do remember looking around my environment and feeling incredibly let down by it. That was a feeling that I didn't know how to articulate in my mind at the time. At all.

[Narrator/Voiceover]

Yeah.

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

I didn't learn that until recently, but that feeling persisted, that little subset of anger in my body.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The last time we spoke, you told me you couldn't forgive your father for what he'd done until you'd spoken with him. Are you still in that space?

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

Do you want to.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you even want to forgive?

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

It's one of those things where there's some things that he did that are irredeemable. I just accept that there's. Like I said, I understand that he had a lot to happen in his childhood. He experienced a lot. So from a compassionate standpoint for the boy in him and the circumstances he was raised in, it hurts me to know that he went through a lot of stuff and a lot of stuff that I'll never know. But for what he did to my mother and like my siblings and me, there's some things that I could forgive and then there's some things that I. I never could.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So how do you think? How do you think, Desmond, what you witnessed in your home, the terror and the fear? I mean, you just described, you know, your eight year old self hiding under the blanket and, you know, blocking so many things out. How did that shape who you are today?

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

All of that? In my home, I didn't realize this until like this week. That created a huge momentum of fear building up in me in my life. I didn't even realize, like for the last, like maybe six, seven years, maybe longer, it is very normal for me to sleep for like four and a half hours to five hours a night. And like I go to the gym. So, like, I have reasons to be tired when I lay my head down at night. Like, I'm exhausted a lot of the time. And I've gotten very used to operating on very little sleep many days. And I realized that that is so. There's so much fear that I have in my body and so that my childhood set me up to accumulate a lot of fear throughout life.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Wow.

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

Yeah. And I didn't realize how much it was. It's like being in the ocean. You're in the ocean, but you don't realize you're in it until you come out the water.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Are you proud of your mom and how far your mom has come from those. Those moments? Yes.

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

Yes, absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

I can look in the video and see

[Oprah Winfrey]

her terror.

[Zeke (Abuser Interviewee)]

Yeah.

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

Like someone who. Someone who just had the best of them, their value made. She was just made to feel so worthless about what such a beautiful person she was.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah.

[Desmond (Susan's Son)]

This sucks. It sucks to see.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It sucks to see. But it's great to see you. It is great to see you.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I wish you nothing but goodness. Goodness and mercy. May it follow you all the days of your life. Goodness and mercy. Susan, what message do you want abuse victims to take away from your story? That you can come out on the other side. It's wonderful to see you and your beautiful son.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Absolutely. There, there. You can have a life after abuse. You can have a good life after abuse. And there are so many resources, so many law. You know, there are laws that are changing. Strangulation is one of them. You were talking about strangulation earlier and that was a misdemeanor when, when I went through this and now many states have made it a felony.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, I wish, as I said to Desmond, I continue to think about you and I wish you both just goodness and mercy. And thank you so much for sharing and you know, and I'm sure you've heard this yourself because anytime I've ever brought up your story, people were so moved by your story. So many women found the courage to get up and leave and make a plan for themselves, begin to make a plan for themselves and eventually, eventually leave. Because of hearing your story and because of that interview I did with young 8 year old cutie pie Desmond at the time. And your willingness to liberate yourself allowed a lot of other women to get free for themselves.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Well, I appreciate that. That's the goal. That's the goal of sharing the story.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Is next family does not have to go through this the next. The children don't have to go through the same things that my children have gone through.

[Zeke (Abuser Interviewee)]

Yeah.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

So thank you for letting us come on.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know what I think is so important, what Desmond just said, because as I was reading from Rachel's book earlier, so many women think they have to stay in the relationship because they don't want the broken home. And I think jasmine describing his 80 year old self underneath the covers and the fear that he still lives with today as, as, as, as a grown man is really important for mothers in particular to know you're not saving your children, you're not saving your sons by allowing them to be in an environment where they witness all this abuse. So thank you both. Thank you. Thank you for joining me.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Thanks.

[Susan (Domestic Violence Survivor)]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you. We appreciate you.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Next, I talked to the family of the murder victims recently in the headlines, a couple fatally shot in their Ohio home by the woman's ex husband. We'll be right back. Speaking to their family next.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Podcast Host/Producer]

Thanks for joining me on the Oprah Podcast. I'm talking with author and journalist Rachel Louise Snyder about why domestic violence is on the rise. If you know someone who may benefit from listening to this conversation, please share the link to this episode. It may just save their life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This past December, Spencer and Monique Tepe were fatally shot in their Columbus, Ohio home in the middle of the night while their two young children slept nearby. You all might have seen that story or heard about that story. Eleven days later, authorities arrested Dr. Michael McGee, Monique's ex husband. He's currently charged with murder and has pled not guilty. The case made national headlines. Spencer's sister Maddie and her husband Rob join us now from Ohio. Maddie and Rob, we are all so sorry really for your families loss. But hopefully this story helps bring light to somebody else's story. Who's listening? Been listening to us. Rachel has written a book about it and has been through many, many, many, many, many cases. Very much like yours. Maddie, tell us a little about your brother and his wife.

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

Yeah. So Spencer, was he was such a good big brother. He was like equal parts goofball athlete and kind of a nerd. He's a little bit type A, and. But he was just like so disciplined and fearless and like, you just, you could not embarrass him. So oftentimes it made him the funniest person in the room and like the most responsible person as well, which just a unique combination to have. And then Monique was just so, such a warm person and had truly the biggest, most inviting smile. And I only met her post.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Michael, you all knew about him.

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

We knew of an ex husband. We never knew his name.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Did you know that the ex husband was an abuser?

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, yeah. And Rob, I understand, as soon as you heard what happened, you knew who was responsible. What did she say about her ex husband?

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Monique?

[Oprah Winfrey]

What did she say?

[Rob (Maddie's Husband)]

Yeah, Knowing Monique for eight years, she. She was not shy about talking about her ex husband. And that's what she would say. My ex husband, she would never say his name. So we didn't even know his. I didn't even find out his name until that night. But, you know, she would. She would tell us that he. He would threaten her. He would threaten to kill her. He was emotionally abusive to her. And, you know, early on, when we found out that when. When their bodies are found and that this wasn't just some random break in, this was, you know, a targeted attack, it was really the. The most likely answer is usually the correct one. And those other, I mean, nobody could say a bad thing about those, those two. So he's the only person that could come to mind. So from right there, I kind of. I feel like we all kind of knew in our hearts so that, you know, that's. That's probably who did this.

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

But it also sounded so crazy because it had been eight years.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And which is interesting because Rachel says in no visible bruises that there is no end date. Right.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

There is no end date. Unlike war, natural disaster, any kind of criminal act, there's no end date for domestic violence. That's, I think, what so many of our systems don't understand.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This is what I don't understand. And maybe you all don't either. I don't understand. The person is beating you up. The person is, you know, obviously enraged and then has this need to believe that you are mine. Right. Because hadn't he said to her, rob, or maybe she told you this, I read this, that you will never be married to anybody else but me. You are mine.

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

Yeah, Maddie, it was something kind of like that.

[Rob (Maddie's Husband)]

And you Know, if you, if you leave me, I'll find the house next door to you and I'll. I'll move in right next to Nor. Right next door to you. You're always going to be my wife. So. Yeah, that's. That's how he felt.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is that? What have you found in your research

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

that, you know, I've. That I sent a chill down my spine because I've heard that in other stories, a man saying in the case I'm thinking of, I'm going to buy the house across the street from you. And he tried to. He tried to. And I think it's one of the most important things I tell, when I do speaking, I tell domestic violence agencies, make sure when you are doing your trainings that you are inviting the local clergy, that you are inviting local HR departments, that you are inviting the social workers from high school. Like, we have got to bring in other systems and other people. Yeah, I just, I feel so awful. And it was so recent in your case, and I mean, I read about it in the newspaper as well, and

[Oprah Winfrey]

he had broken into the house weeks before, right?

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

We don't know. He was in the. What, the. The word they use is curtilage, which I guess could mean. Yeah, around.

[Narrator/Voiceover]

We.

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

We suspect kind of the backyard, but we don't. We don't know.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Eddie and Rob, how are you doing?

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

We're hanging in there.

[Rob (Maddie's Husband)]

Yeah, we. We just took a little bit of time off. You know, we went to California with some family and we had some. Some of Spencer and Monique's friends join us, kind of just to get away from it. But, you know, you can't run from your feelings necessarily. It was good to be around these people and talk about things, but, you know, it's, It's. It's just lingering and the pressure of it just feels so large.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Did she live in fear of him? Did she ever think something like this could happen?

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

I mean, I think ultimately, yes, she did, but we never thought that it was a present threat. We just thought this is what happened to her. And that's why, you know, she would respond to things the way that she did.

[Rob (Maddie's Husband)]

Yeah. And I, I think on top of. On top of that, she was obviously working very hard on her mental health. And then you add Spencer into the mix, who's just the most optimistic, positive person that we know. Everything seems all right. You know, she would bring it up here and there, but, like, it, it just felt like it, you know, it was getting better and it was, it

[Oprah Winfrey]

was that they were going on with Their lives.

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That they were going. And he never indicated to you, your brother, that it was a problem, right? No.

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

The children, outside of just her having anxiety about it.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The children who were in the home at the time of the murders are now, I understand, just 4 and 1. How are they doing and where are they?

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

You know, I want to respect their privacy, but I can tell you that they're safe, they're with family, and that both, you know, the Tepe family and Monique's family are doing everything they can to come together and make sure that they're getting all the support and love that they need.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is the message or the wake up call you want people to take away from your family's tragedy? What can we learn from you all?

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

Well, I thinking about that a lot. And you know, people, you look on the Internet and you just hear all of these comments and a lot of people say, well, why didn't she hide better? You know, why didn't she, you know, why didn't she do more to protect herself? Why, why, why? Why didn't she do something? Right?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Why didn't she do something?

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

Why did they have better security? And I just feel like, why is it on the woman to protect herself? Like if, if she had, under Ohio law, if she had gotten a restraining order when this happened, it would have expired after five years. And then, and then there would be. Unless there was another present threat, they would. The court would have laughed her out, out of there if she tried to have it extended.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Restraining orders are not bulletproof.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, right.

[Rob (Maddie's Husband)]

Yeah, that's so true. If, you know, if somebody's crazy enough to make this happen, what's the restraining order gonna do? Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, we're wishing all the best for you and your family as you go forward. Thank you, Rob and Maddie, and we thank you for sharing your family story. Thank you.

[Maddie (Spencer's Sister)]

Thank you for having us.

[Rob (Maddie's Husband)]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In the afterward, you write that you didn't think that you had a personal connection to domestic violence until you did. Tell us what happened.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

My dear friend Michelle, her brother and his wife had two daughters, and their older daughter was my daughter's best friend in elementary school. Just a weird confluence of circumstances. And when. The day of their fifth grade graduation, the girls fifth grade graduation. I was actually on book tour for this book. Jason was his name. Jason killed his wife and then killed himself. And they were going through a terrible divorce. But I knew them both. They were invited to the book release party. I mean, I, I still am shocked by the fact that that happened. And my Friend, Michelle, she lived in Chicago. She got on the first flight she could to come to D.C. where we all lived. And she never went home again. You know, she didn't have any kids and suddenly she has to up and move to Washington D.C. it just goes

[Oprah Winfrey]

to show you, we don't, we don't know who is and who isn't.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

We have no idea.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We have no idea.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

I still am just shocked by, by what happened.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, I thank you for writing this book and I thank you for being here for this critical conversation and for helping us to see that we need to do better because the stats are getting worse, not better. And all of the talk about self empowerment, we need to do a better job of looking out for each other and especially for other women in our lives. So thank you so much, Susan. Thank you, Dasmyne, Rob and Maddie for allowing us to see the devastating impact that this has had on your families. And Rachel's book, no Visible Bruises. What We Don't Know About Domestic Violence Can Kill Us is available wherever books are sold. Normally after a conversation like this, you'd put up, we put up information about a domestic violence hotline. It feels like it's one of those mandatory things people do and say, but if you suspect that someone that you know is in this situation, what should you say to them? What do you think you should say to them?

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

I think you, the first thing you do is open up a non judgmental space for them to talk because it takes a lot of years for someone to be able to extricate themselves from that situation. And I think you just having a conversation about it is so important. Yeah, I think we talk about it. Let's talk about it to our book clubs. We're all in book clubs. Yeah, right. Let's talk about it to our walking groups, our friend groups. Let's just normalize the conversation and say like, you know, this is not okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. So that a woman in a group like that doesn't feel so ashamed. Because I think there's so much shame attached to it.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because you're trying to create this facade that everything's okay and you're so ashamed.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Creating the space where women can feel comfortable talking about it.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Yeah.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you, Rachel.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No visible bruises. Thank you.

[Rachel Louise Snyder]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Maybe you were as shocked as I was to learn that globally the most dangerous place for a woman today is inside her home. If you or someone you love is experiencing or is at risk of domestic violence. I'm urging you to read Rachel Louise Snyder's eye opening book, no visible bruises. If it's happening to you, you're going to see yourself in every page. You can buy the book right this second by scanning the QR code on your screen screen. Literally scan the code. You'll have the book in seconds. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about, so thank you for watching and listening.