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- [00:09]
A
Hi, everybody. I'm happy to welcome you to the Oprah Podcast. We're in New York with a live audience of our listeners. So great to be with you all here. And we know the world is changing at the speed of light. Every day we're grappling with a new disruption or cultural shift we've never faced before. So one of my intentions is to have meaningful conversations about the impact all this has on our real lives. Lots of people say, oh, I'm addicted to my phone. How many of you ever said that I'm addicted to my phone? Well, anyone who has a member of Gen Z in their life that's roughly between the ages of 13 to 28 knows that tech addiction is becoming a real crisis. Hear me clearly now. That is for millions of families. I'm very much aware of the toll that this is taking on parents because two members of my own team are now struggling with their sons as we speak. One of them had to have her son, her 19 year old son, removed from their home because when she tried to get him off of her phone, he started hitting her. So the obsession has reached a breaking point for a lot of people. So let's dive right into this. Adam Alter is a research psychologist and professor. Hi, Adam.
- [01:38]
B
Hi.
- [01:39]
A
Of marketing at New York University's Stern School of Business. And his New York Times bestseller is called the Rise of Addictive Technology and the Business of Keeping Us Hooked. Welcome, Professor Alter. So how bad is it? How bad is it out there?
- [01:57]
B
It's pretty bad. It's bad in at least two respects. One is that it affects a huge number of people, as you said, millions. The Surgeon General report suggested that about 95% of teens between 13 and 17 are glued to their phones, usually using smartphones for social media purposes. And, you know, the effects also are grave. For a lot of people. It means their social interactions are ruined or harmed greatly. They struggle to do work. They have issues within their families. And it's not just about 13 to 17 year olds. We're talking about young adults and older adults as well. So it's a pretty serious problem that affects a lot of people. And the effects are pretty, are pretty grave.
- [02:38]
A
I mean, when I just described one of my producers was sharing with me that she had to take her son out of the home and he's now in some kind of rehab program. They realized that he was not attending classes, he wasn't, you know, going to school, he wasn't doing anything except gaming on his phone.
- [03:00]
B
Yeah. And you hear the story, you know, writ large Times million or millions. You know, it's a very common story these days.
- [03:07]
A
Dr. Caitlin Reger is an associate professor and program director of Digital Humanities at the University College of London. Her upcoming book is called Smartphone Nation. Caitlin, what do you want parents in Gen Z to know about what's going on?
- [03:20]
C
So I come from a tech perspective. I research how the tech works. Okay. I start with the premise that almost everything else we consume is regulated. The food we eat, the medication we take, the cars we drive. We have consumer protections around these things. We don't have the same consumer protections around the digital space because we're not the consumers of tech. We're the product. Or rather our time and attention is the product which is being sold to advertisers. And what my research looks at is the way in which, through this attention economy, hate, harm and disinformation is often algorithmically prioritized.
- [04:07]
A
Hate, harm and disinformation. So we're being.
- [04:12]
C
Because it is more attention grabbing.
- [04:13]
A
So we're being programmed, we're being fed that we're being conditioned and most people don't even know it.
- [04:19]
D
That's right.
- [04:20]
C
And so what I do is I develop tools so that we can step away from being a passive product that just consumes into being an active participant. And that's something we all can do. We can be much more intentional with our usage.
- [04:35]
A
We can be. I heard you got interested when you read that Steve Jobs and a lot of other people who were responsible for where we are in the culture with technology don't let their own kids use it.
- [04:47]
B
Yeah, I mean, I found that absolutely striking. It violates a very basic rule in business that, you know, if you're the executive from Coca Cola or McDonald's or any other company, it's assumed that you probably consume that product as well. That's how you demonstrate that you stand behind whatever that product is. And here you see this one case where there's this massive departure from that rule that a lot of the tech titans, even for the last 15 or 20 years, have been very purposeful about keeping those, those same products that they say publicly we should all be using out of their homes so they won't let their kids use the same products that we all are not only letting our kids use, but we've been encouraged to let our kids use.
- [05:25]
A
Say again, Caitlin. We're being programmed for harm.
- [05:28]
C
So the reason is, is that disinformation is often more attention grabbing than truth.
- [05:35]
A
Of course, yes.
- [05:36]
C
And harm or things that hook into our most vulnerable points will often hold us there just a little bit longer, and that harm will be different for every person in this audience. Right. We might think about the fact that we live in information silos. We might think about the fact that we were never meant to look at our faces or our bodies as much as we do. We might think about the way in which it has changed sex and relationships. But ultimately, the thing that links all of these problems together is an unethical attention economy that is seeking to hold us at any cost. And that's where this problem sits. And so what I want to encourage us to do is be aware of this structure and then start to intercept it, start to game your algorithm, start to take control.
- [06:28]
A
Okay, I want to also bring in. Dr. Christina Breising is an assistant professor of psychiatry in the division of substance use disorders at Columbia University and a research scientist at New York State Psychiatric Institute. Dr. Breezing, what is happening in the brains of young people who are addicted to tech? What's actually going on in the brain?
- [06:50]
D
So technology addiction is a behavioral addiction, and behavioral addictions have the same brain changes and clinical symptoms as addictions to drugs or alcohol. The hallmark brain change of an addiction is a desensitization to the release of dopamine in response to a reward. And so essentially what happens is as a result of that, we develop something called tolerance, which means the same reward doesn't give that same pleasure, doesn't give that same reinforcing of power.
- [07:19]
A
It's like the same hit of coat. You need more coke.
- [07:21]
D
Exactly, exactly. And so as a consequence, you spend more time seeking that rewarding, pleasurable experience. And as a result of spending more time, say in the case of a tech addiction, on your phone, you're spending less time in meaningful relationships. You're spending less time focused on your schoolwork, you're spending less time thinking about work.
- [07:41]
A
So what is the dopamine hit you're getting from the phone? What are you getting?
- [07:47]
D
So dopamine is released in the brain in a way that creates pleasure. It feels good. People like to feel good.
- [07:53]
A
Yeah.
- [07:53]
D
And so when you start feeling good, you spend a lot of time, it out competes other important things. If it's tech addiction, it could be gaming, so people could be getting to the next level of a game. Games are designed to make things rewarding in a very particular way. They usually use intermittent reinforcing rewards so that you can't expect when you're going to get it, get the hit of dopamine, which tends to be more reinforcing. Social media is designed to get likes and have social engagement that tends to be more rewarding. And then adult content creates high level arousal and emotionality and large hits of dopamine.
- [08:28]
A
Well, we're going to get to adult content later. But that allows you to, even though you get aroused, I think you then need more intense arousal.
- [08:39]
E
Right?
- [08:39]
A
More intense things to happen. Correct.
- [08:41]
D
Because essentially that desensitization is what leads to the need for more intense experiences in order to have that same rewarding, pleasurable sensation in the body and in the brain.
- [08:52]
A
Whoa. Thank you all for joining the Oprah Podcast. When we come back, we're going to hear from a mother who who is deeply concerned about her 23 year old son's gaming addiction.
- [09:03]
F
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- [09:32]
A
Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. We're talking with experts and members of Gen Z about this growing crisis of tech addiction. So you were talking about gaming. Dr. Anisha and her son Amir are here and tell us what's been going on.
- [09:47]
G
Dr. Anisha hi, thanks for having me. So My name is Dr. Neisha Glenn. This is my son, Amir Jenkins. And I am going to just share my experience as being a mother to a gamer. I first bought Amir his first game, I would say maybe about five or six years old. And at that time I did not think that it would turn into an addiction because I'm so used to playing games growing up, Nintendo, Atari. But you gotta keep in mind he's a different Gen Z, I'm different. So we went outside, we played when the street lights and everything was up. So he started his gaming at about 5 or 6 and then I noticed, I bought him his first game, the PlayStation 1. When it came out and I noticed like 9 and 10, he was definitely playing the game. And as time continued to go on, when he got in high school, that's when I knew it was an addiction. One time he was in this room playing his game, which is the game called Fortnite. Oh my God, Fortnite has taken so much of my money. So he was in his room playing Fortnite and I heard him screaming and cussing and everything. Like, who are you talking to? He's like, I'm. Or with some people at the game because I lost and all this. They going back and forth. And about 20 minutes later, there are four guys at my door. They had came to my house to fight him because I guess they lost. I'm not really sure. But come to find out they were guys that actually went to his school. So I then had to contact the school and let them know what was going on. Because at this point, I'm noticing this addiction is getting violent. Throughout this addiction, I noticed Amir would get up in the mornings, he would not brush his teeth, he would not eat. It was stricken.
- [11:26]
A
Amir.
- [11:27]
E
I mean, nothing.
- [11:28]
G
No, no, no showers. I'm just keeping it real. I'm just being honest in there on the game 24 hours a day. So I noticed it affecting his education. I noticed sometimes when I would take the game, I would wake up in the middle of the night. He's in there at 3 o', clock, 4 o' clock in the morning, playing the game, screaming. And I'm like, who are you talking to? So it's really bad right now. And he's 23 years old, and I still experience a lot of the same things. He's now taking showers. He's now eating a little bit more.
- [11:59]
A
Preached his teeth this morning, so good.
- [12:02]
E
So.
- [12:03]
G
But it's still bad. I'm like, I don't want my son to be 30 years old having an addiction to games.
- [12:08]
A
So I'm like, do you think you have an addiction? I would say I've gotten a lot better with it. What does that really mean, Amir?
- [12:16]
H
I would say I don't have the.
- [12:19]
A
Urge to constantly be on the game, but I feel the urge to, you.
- [12:24]
I
Know, play the game excessively long.
- [12:28]
A
Now I don't play it as long.
- [12:29]
I
As I used to.
- [12:31]
A
Yeah. So do you have a life? Do you work? Do you go to school? I go to school and I work full time as well. Okay, okay. So you're not on it all of the time, but can you take us to the point of understanding what that feels like when you're sort of caught up in the obsessiveness obsession of it? I would say you almost forget where you are in a sense. Like when I play the game, I literally forget I'm in a house sometimes. It's so virtual, so intimate, and, you know, it's free judge free zone as well. You've done extensive research on games, and what do you want to say about this?
- [13:13]
B
It's Very, very hard to resist. You know, you basically think of it as you're going fishing for people's attention. And if you're, you've got the hook and the line and you're basically trying to build as many lures onto the line as you can. And when you're designing a product like this, you can't do it in a way that's foolproof, where you know for sure it's going to succeed. But you can build in as many of these hooks as you can. Things like variable reward, which is what happens when you play a slot machine, or the goals that you get for passing a level, or the social connection you get with a lot of these games because they involve other people. And so when you build all of these features into the game, you raise the chance that the game's going to be hard to resist. And so this is a very common story. It is very, very difficult to stop playing once you begin.
- [13:54]
A
Well, Dr. Wahir, we're not going back in time. I mean, young adults are going to have smartphones. So what are parents supposed to do?
- [14:04]
C
So, Amir, you're in what I would call an echo chamber, right? So an echo chamber is when we continuously micro dose on a certain type of content so that the behavior or the belief becomes normalized for us. And echo chambers are playing out across this country, whether it's around politics, whether it is around niche ideas, or whether it is around behaviors online. So what do we do about that? How do we have these conversations? What I tend to say is if someone in your life is in an echo chamber, instead of debating them on the minutiae of that echo chamber in your home or at the Thanksgiving table with uncle such and such. Who believes this? Step away from the actual detail and look at the technological processes at play together. Look at the technology that is feeding this addiction, that is feeding this belief. And then together decide that you want to push back against it because you have the power to do that. And then we break.
- [15:12]
E
How are you going to do that.
- [15:13]
A
When that's not what he wants to do? How are you going to do that?
- [15:16]
C
Because we start to talk about the addictive quality of these technological processes and make it us against that technology instead of us being against each other, we are all in this together.
- [15:32]
G
Thank you. I do have a question. I remember you stated that they're considered products and not consumers.
- [15:40]
A
Yeah.
- [15:40]
G
And I was telling him about and wanted to share the story. Whoever comes up and designed these games are genius because at one point we spent all of our money on PlayStations. They made it so now convenient to where now he's playing on a PC so it's easy access. Now we're not spending as much money. So that's my thing. They're making it even more accessible for kids.
- [16:11]
A
Dr. Breezing, there is a treatment though for this, right?
- [16:14]
D
There are treatments.
- [16:14]
A
You actually are treating kids who are going through this?
- [16:17]
D
Yeah. So there are treatments for behavioral addictions. The first treatment is looking at psychotherapies, things like cognitive behavioral therapy. And in the case of mirror, you may want to think about motivational interviewing. Basically, it's a type of therapy that meets people where they're at, thinks about what your motivation might be to change this behavior, and works you towards coming up with a plan to get you ready, willing and able to take action.
- [16:41]
A
But isn't it like every addiction, the person has to be willing themselves, not just your parents or not just your person in school or not just that person has to say, I have a problem and I want to now fix this.
- [16:55]
D
Right, Absolutely. And so at this point, Amir, you'd have to assess where your motivation is at to get to a place where you do exactly what Ms. Winfrey just said, which is that I'm ready to make a change and then start implementing a plan to do so. The other thing to think about is that there are medications off label. Medications that have been effective in alcohol use disorders and for opioid use disorders that work in certain kinds of behavioral addiction like naltrexone. And then in addition to that, addictions tend to have common co occurring psychiatric diagnoses. And it makes sense to get an evaluation to see if you might struggle from depression. Some of the symptoms that you're describing have a lot of overlap with that. Anxiety disorders like social phobia or generalized anxiety can sometimes overlap with addictions in addition to other impulse control disorders, adhd, psychotic disorders. So getting evaluated for that and getting treatment can actually help with the behavioral addiction. If there's a component of that to.
- [17:53]
A
It, that's a mouthful.
- [17:56]
E
Sorry.
- [17:57]
A
I know. Cause he's going, I'm not psychotic, I'm just. He might not be.
- [18:01]
D
No, but some people are.
- [18:03]
A
Yeah, I hear you. I hear that. Thank you for listening. Next we hear from a young wife and mother who says her husband's addiction to online adult content has reached a breaking point and is threatening their marriage.
- [18:18]
F
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- [18:47]
A
Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. Thank you for joining me for this timely conversation about how addiction to gaming and online adult content and other tech is destroying the lives of millions of teens and young adults. Maddie and Kyle are married, and they're the parents of two young children. They wanted to share their story with us in the hope that it will help some of you who are watching or listening. So let's first watch a short video, a few clips from their social media. You'll hear them use the word corn instead of the real word for these videos so it won't be flagged by the platform and taken down. So let's take a look.
- [19:27]
I
I was exposed to corn at the age of 8 and have struggled with an addiction for the past 20 years.
- [19:33]
E
I'm married to a corn addict. He has struggled since he was 8 years old. I make it, like, my mission to watch his every move, which is so draining. When we were first married, I was super confused, like, why he didn't want to be intimate all the time. I was like, don't guys want to, like, do it all the time?
- [19:52]
I
For the longest time in my addiction, I felt alone. I felt ashamed keeping it a secret from family, friends, loved ones, my spouse.
- [20:03]
E
My heart breaks for, like, younger Maddie, like, years ago, that thought, like, that I wasn't enough. Addiction is a super tricky subject, and I'm still learning more about it, but I promise you, it has nothing to do with you.
- [20:24]
I
I want to share my story with others so they don't feel alone in this.
- [20:30]
A
Mm. Maddy and Kyle, thank you for being here. I know this is a hard thing to talk about, and I applaud your courage in being willing to speak about it, because I hear this is really serious for a lot of people, like millions and millions of guys throughout the country and the world. And what was surprising to me, I remember doing shows about this years ago when I was, you know, doing a daily show. What's surprising to me is that you became addicted or exposed so young. So what was going on that you were 8 years old and you come across the corn?
- [21:11]
I
Yeah. So, yeah, I got exposed to it when I was 8. It was on my family, this computer. My stepdad at the time had it on There, and I just came across it and, like, it drew me to it. So I just kept going back and.
- [21:28]
A
Looking at it, and it became your go to for everything.
- [21:31]
I
Yeah, like, unintentionally. My mom was diagnosed with leukemia when I was really young, and he got really sick there for a while. And so, unbeknownst to me, I was turning to it to cover up my fear, my anxiety. I felt that I needed to be the old. I was the older sibling, so I had to be strong for my younger siblings. And so I wasn't expressing my fear with that. So I was just turning to corn for that release.
- [21:58]
A
Yeah. And so when you met Maddie, you all ended up getting married. Did you ever tell her that you had this as an issue in the.
- [22:09]
I
Beginning when we were dating, I had mentioned. Well, she asked if I had an issue with it, and I said, yeah, I've viewed it in the past, but I have it under control now. So I was lying to her about that.
- [22:19]
A
You were lying? Yeah. You were lying. When did you realize, Maddie, that it was an addiction and not what people always say about this, that all men watch it?
- [22:29]
E
Yeah. I hate when people say that because, like, in. Even if it was, he was just watching it. Sometimes in our marriage, I wouldn't be okay with that. But a month in, I found stuff on his phone, and I, like, broke down. I was like, what is this? And that's when he broke down and was like, I have a problem. And so I definitely felt blindsided because we had talked about it before, and so it was kind of shocking to me. But that's when I found out it was, like, a month in.
- [22:59]
A
So you were trying to hide it from her?
- [23:02]
I
Yeah, I was viewing it behind her back and just not telling her.
- [23:05]
A
Mm. Mm. So, Maddie, you've said that you're not sure your marriage will survive this. Why? What do you wanna say to the partners and to the family members of people who are struggling with this like you are?
- [23:18]
E
Yeah. There's been many times that I felt that we can't make it through because the lies and, like, the betrayal that come from finding out he was lying. But I do know lots of the time he was in denial himself and didn't want to admit that it was a bigger issue. So there is hope, I would say, for the partners of addicts going through this to know that as much as this addiction makes it feel like it is your problem, like, it is because you're not enough, it is because you're not a certain way. That is not the case. It took me so many years to learn that.
- [23:56]
A
How long have you all been married?
- [23:57]
E
We've been married six and a half years. So I would say, like, the last year is when I finally realized that, like, this addiction is so much deeper. It's something that he's used as an unhealthy coping mechanism since he was 8 years old. Like, it started long before he knew me. And I'm like, how many times do I try to break a bad habit and I have to start over? I mean, this is an addiction. So when you step back and look at why they're using that to cope, it makes it easier to have compassion and understand that you are enough. And this is something that you guys can get through together as long as he's willing and wants to.
- [24:33]
A
And you are willing.
- [24:35]
I
Oh, absolutely.
- [24:35]
A
He is now. He is.
- [24:37]
E
Now I will say you were like, you can't force an addict. The first couple years I was like, you're doing this, you know, and it took, I don't know, a couple years for him to really want to do it himself. And that's.
- [24:49]
A
And why is that? Why is that, Kyle? Because you thought you. You weren't that bad. You were like, Amir, like, you're like, you've got it under control.
- [24:56]
I
Yeah, I mean, I was in denial about it. And then there's still that as far as the addict aspect of it. Like, I wanted it still. I wanted to have that. And, you know, you give up so much control to an addiction, and you want as much control over other things as possible. So your free will or your choice on that is kind of what was the driving force for a while that kept me from been in recovery.
- [25:19]
A
I'm wondering, is. Is. Is AI going to make this worse?
- [25:22]
B
I think so. I think it's going to do two things that are damaging. One is you. You don't need actors because you have AI and so it's a bottomless pool of. Of information that you have at your disposal. And so there's just more content available. The other thing is, AI is very good at learning what you like and what's interesting to you and making things that are tailored to your preferences. So I think it's going to be weaponized in that way through AI and that's, I think, a very big concern.
- [25:47]
A
Oh, yeah. I remember doing a special and I was talking to Bill Gates about this and to Sam Altman, I think. I mean, people are going to be falling in love with their AI. Yeah, they are. They are. They're going to want to marry Them, they're going to want to fall in love with them. They're going to be buying them presents and all that stuff. It's. It's going to get bad, I think. It's going to. I think. And you think it's going to get bad?
- [26:10]
B
I do, yeah.
- [26:11]
A
And you think it's gonna get better? It's gonna. It already is bad. It's gonna get worse. So I Wanna bring Connor McLaren and Alex Slater into this conversation. They are members of Gen Z who co founded Quitter Q U I T T R. It's a popular app designed to help men break free from this addiction. So, Alex, what inspired you to take this on?
- [26:37]
J
I'll say. Me and all my friends struggled with it and no one was really open about talking about it. Then it was a bunch of YouTubers that sparked this new movement called self improvement. Quitting porn was a part of that. Gen Z were significantly underserved. So I built an app for it.
- [26:54]
A
Right, so you started it for yourself originally?
- [26:57]
J
Sure, yeah.
- [26:58]
A
Yeah. Because you were addicted to.
- [27:01]
J
I wouldn't say addicted, but I definitely wanted to cut it out. And, yeah. As much control as I thought I had, I didn't.
- [27:09]
A
Yeah.
- [27:09]
J
So I built a better solution.
- [27:11]
A
Yeah. And so when you all got together and decided you were gonna create this app. Yeah. And what does the app actually do?
- [27:21]
H
So we set out to build an app that makes it cool and fun to stop watching adult content. And so we built a gamified accountability platform, and we wanted to provide users with the most tools and resources to help them get to the finish line when it comes to the features you get on the platform, you set a commitment, you actually paid for the platform. So you have an intent to quit. We gamify, through streaks, education resources, and most importantly, we have a community, an environment where you're not shamed, when you're vulnerable and you're supported.
- [27:57]
J
Yeah, that's the most important part.
- [27:59]
A
Yeah. Cause I know you guys want to make it clear that you're not psychologists, you're not scientists, you're not professors, you're not doctors. But you said it doesn't matter, that you've created a tool, this quitter, that actually works. And how do you know it works?
- [28:15]
J
Because we have like 25,000 five star reviews on the App Store. We have a million downloads. We have people coming up to us in person saying we've changed their life and they're like three months clean because of the platform. And we have hundreds, thousands of community posts a day, people saying, wow, I'm so grateful to be here.
- [28:32]
A
Does it. Is it just for people addicted to adult content or is it also for people addicted to gaming or people who can't put their phones down?
- [28:41]
J
It's just adult content.
- [28:42]
A
It's just adult content.
- [28:42]
J
I wouldn't say addicted. It's just anyone that wants to stop.
- [28:45]
A
What is the process? How long does it take?
- [28:48]
J
Usually like 90 days.
- [28:50]
A
90 days.
- [28:51]
H
And this is from community posts. Users talking out publicly on the platform saying that they get clarity after 90 days. That's when they kind of see the light. And then users actually tend to stay on to encourage other users because we basically made it as cheap as possible at a yearly.
- [29:07]
J
That's the dopamine reset, pretty much what you guys talking about. That's how you reset the baseline and no longer feel impulsive to watch it.
- [29:16]
A
Have you heard about this? Oh, yeah, yeah. You know about it. Have you tried it?
- [29:21]
I
No, I haven't tried this. I've used other apps similar. Like, not so much similar to that, but other apps to help quit, to just hold myself accountable.
- [29:31]
A
And is it working?
- [29:33]
I
Yes, but I definitely, I think in the beginning of my journey they would have been really nice to know about this app and to use it.
- [29:40]
A
About quitter.
- [29:40]
I
Yeah.
- [29:41]
A
Yeah.
- [29:42]
J
Join us.
- [29:42]
A
Yeah, yeah. So, Dr. Brezik, how is this having a far reaching, much deeper impact than other behavioral addictions or people who just can't quit?
- [29:55]
D
Okay, so there have been some concerning trends actually in terms of sexual behavior and sexual health surveys taken of college age women who are reporting at increasing rates that they're experiencing what you call sexual asphyxiation or being choked by their sexual partners at an increasing rate. The majority actually of college age women in one of these surveys reported being recently choked by a sexual partner. And the researchers, well, this is because of what they think is happening, is that there is increasing exposure to this type of content on adult content websites. And as a consequence of that, like teenagers and young people are actually learning about sexual behavior through adult content websites and then experimenting with it in their own relationships.
- [30:47]
A
Oh. And so therefore there's an increase in choking and all this because as we were saying earlier, that if you start when you're eight years old, by the time you get to be Kyle's age, you need more intense, more intense things to happen in order for the dopamine hit to.
- [31:04]
D
And so conventional human behavior that would be present on that content is not as stimulating. And so people tend to seek out more provocative content or more extreme content that can frequently tap into some of the things Dr. Caitlin was saying, which is aggression and at times even violence.
- [31:23]
A
Wow, we're in trouble. I know you have something to say about this, Dr. Brigue?
- [31:28]
C
Yeah, I mean, I would. I agree wholeheartedly with Dr. Brese. We are seeing that this is being used as an educational resource.
- [31:39]
A
Okay.
- [31:39]
C
Pornography increasingly. And what I think is really important to point out.
- [31:43]
A
An educational resource for whom?
- [31:45]
C
For young people about how to have sex. Okay. So this is not a rolled up Playboy under the bed from the 90s. This is much more potent. This is fast paced, unfortunately, oftentimes violent. The short form content that people are consuming at high, high dosages and that is normalizing this type, this, this type of behavior. And so I think we need to be. It's really uncomfortable to talk about, but I think we do need to be honest about what's going on here. I think unfortunately we need to talk to the young people in our lives. I like to use.
- [32:29]
A
They're not going to tell us. They're going to do like Kyle.
- [32:31]
C
I like to use the analogy of a Marvel film.
- [32:34]
A
Okay.
- [32:35]
C
I like to say that just like a superhero film where they shoot lasers out of their eyes.
- [32:41]
A
Yeah.
- [32:42]
C
This is a performance. This is not reflective of most normative, healthy, consensual relationships. And it's not what is expected of you as a woman or a man to do. And I think we need to be really open about the fact that this is the type of content that is out there and that we should not be using it as a way to inform the way we engage with the people we love.
- [33:12]
A
I think the corn's already out of the bag.
- [33:15]
C
Yeah, absolutely.
- [33:17]
A
I think the corn's already out of the bag. I don't know how you're going to pull that back now.
- [33:22]
C
Absolutely. But if we, we know that in this country by the age of 13, half of kids will have consumed often violent pornography.
- [33:32]
A
Okay.
- [33:33]
C
We know that.
- [33:33]
A
Adult content, Sorry, Pornography. Yeah.
- [33:38]
C
And if we know that, we then have to unfortunately have a more complex conversation than the ones our parents had to have with us.
- [33:47]
A
Yeah. I'm sorry to say it's very concerning. I see you shaking your head because you see the guys you are so.
- [33:53]
H
This is actually amazing that you said that because Alex and I have restructured Quitter's mission on how do we change culture? How do you make these young men look up to people that don't watch porn? How do you have NBA stars and celebrities talk about this publicly that they don't watch porn? It's changed their life. And on top of that we're finding more and more that a significant amount of our downloads are under 18 year olds. And so but they're afraid of under 18. And so how do you get them? They want it themselves. And when we're finding out they don't have credit cards or they don't want to use their parents credit cards because of the shame. And so how do you coach parents to talk about it with their kids in an open way so it's okay and so they're not by the time of Kyle's age potentially ruining a relationship.
- [34:38]
C
Yeah, that's right.
- [34:39]
A
I am so glad that you joined us here on the Oprah podcast. We will be right back with more of this critical conversation about the devastating impact that tech addiction is having on the mental health and well being of an entire generation.
- [34:53]
F
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- [35:23]
A
More of my conversation about tech addiction with leading experts and some gen zers. Maddie, I want to go back to you because you said something earlier about not blaming yourself. And even in the video you were saying you wanted to say to everybody to know that if this is happening in your life or going on in your life, it really has nothing to do with you. Did you blame yourself in the beginning? Did you think I'm not whatever enough?
- [35:52]
E
Yeah, I did blame myself. I thought I wasn't fit enough, hot enough, didn't put out enough. But even like in our beginning of our marriage, like I would try to be intimate with him, but he just wasn't interested because he had viewed stuff earlier that day. So, you know, but like, it's hard not to take that personal.
- [36:11]
A
Yeah.
- [36:11]
E
So that's why it took me so long to learn more about addiction and then realize it's really not about me. But it's so much easier said than done.
- [36:19]
A
In no way can you compare to whatever is on those adult videos.
- [36:22]
E
Yes, there's no way. But something that I like. He's viewed this since he was 8 years old, but I tell myself like, he chose to marry me. He didn't have to marry me. I didn't force him to marry me, like, he still wanted to marry me. So I remind myself that, like, I am enough. And that's a totally different issue.
- [36:39]
A
Yeah, you remind yourself, do you?
- [36:41]
E
Reminds me, yes.
- [36:42]
A
And he reminds you, too?
- [36:43]
E
Yes, yes, yes.
- [36:44]
A
Yeah.
- [36:45]
E
Yes.
- [36:46]
A
Because you want this to work out.
- [36:47]
I
Yes, absolutely.
- [36:48]
A
You do? You want it to work out?
- [36:50]
I
Yeah, absolutely. So that's why I'm doing what I'm doing, to put it behind me and, you know, not view chronography.
- [36:57]
A
And are you. It doesn't make sense to be upset, the fact that you were exposed at such a young age. But you understand what happened to you, right?
- [37:04]
I
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think in the beginning I had a little, like, grudge towards my stepdad. But, yeah, I'm like, you know, I was going to come across it eventually. It just so happened to be at that time. And so I have no hard feelings towards it. But, you know, in the end, it was my choice to. To constantly go back and view it.
- [37:23]
A
Yeah. What would you. What would you say to somebody who's going through what you have been through and continue to go through now, knowing what you know?
- [37:31]
I
Yeah, this. The hard part is, like, you. You feel shame with. With doing this stuff. Just know that you're not alone, and that shame is what. What keeps you in your. Your addiction. And so.
- [37:43]
A
And you feel shame because you are married, or would you feel ashamed if you weren't married?
- [37:46]
G
Married.
- [37:47]
I
Viewing it, I mean, I felt it before I was ever dating anyone. I always felt ashamed viewing this stuff. And so it's like, if you can just set that aside and know that there's other people out there that are. That are going through this.
- [37:57]
A
Millions.
- [37:58]
I
Yeah. And there are resources to. To hold onto that because it's possible to. To overcome this. And it doesn't need to control your life and have the control over you that it has at this moment.
- [38:08]
A
What are the guys who've gone through this with you? I assume they're mostly guys. Yeah. What do the guys who've gone through this with you say after they have been able to better themselves, they're having.
- [38:21]
J
Better relationships with people. They can communicate better. Loads of things.
- [38:25]
H
I think a lot of it, too, is we see that a lot of men coming on the platform don't develop relationships with women. They don't try to go on dates. They don't try to talk to them. And so we realized that once they quit, they're like, well, how do I even talk to a girl at a bar or, like, out to get coffee? Like, what do I say this and that. What do I do? Like, how do you go in for your first kiss? X, Y and Z. And it's like they don't even have the self confidence. But then after they see the light, they start developing self confidence. They hit the gym, they diet, and it's that whole self development.
- [38:53]
A
That's what Jonathan Hyde says in his book the Anxious Generation. That there's a whole generation of young men. Are you all aware of this? Young men. That there's a whole generation of young, young men who have not been socialized to actually have a conversation, ask somebody out on a date, do that. Have you experienced that?
- [39:12]
B
Absolutely. Yeah, that's exactly right. That there's this sort of critical period where you learn how to do all these things. And if you put technology between you and the human beings that you're supposed to be interacting with, you never really develop those skills. And that critical period passes and then it becomes very hard to be, especially a young man sort of navigating the world of trying to figure out how you talk to potential partners.
- [39:35]
A
Yes. Especially if you, if you started like Kyle at 8, it's a wonder you got married. Knew how to even ask her. Yes. Yeah, yeah.
- [39:44]
J
It's because it's easier to just not speak to people that's uncomfortable. But because we have phones now, we can get the same amount of dopamine by scrolling or by texting. They just do that instead.
- [39:56]
A
Yeah. I admire you for creating this for yourself and then being able to take what was helpful to you and to use it to serve the world. Congratulations to you all for doing Kwita KWA Ta. We didn't even have time to get into Gen Z and online gambling, which I know is a great Dr. Breezing, before we go, can we have a final word from you?
- [40:21]
D
I think that when you're struggling with addiction, it can be incredibly isolating. You can feel very lonely. It has a huge impact on families, on couples. So I would say, like big problems require a village, get help, talk to people, talk to your friends, look into having a specialist, maybe intervene and provide some guidance.
- [40:41]
A
Thank you. Thank you all for being here today. Adam, you get the last word. What should I, we be doing now? What should companies be doing?
- [40:49]
B
I think companies need to be forced to do the right thing. I think just hoping they'll do the right thing is, is it is hoping for a lot, but the best thing they can do is to take a leaf out of the book of companies that have made very successful products in the past using a different approach. One example of this that I've always found very interesting is Shigeru Miyamoto, who is the main developer at Nintendo of some of the best selling games of all time, used to give the games to his friends and he would just say, I knew a game was good, worth pursuing and worth making if they enjoyed it, if they got value out of it, and it actually made their lives better instead of just measuring how much time people spent on the device or on the game. So I think the key metrics have to change from how much welfare do you bring into the world rather than how many minutes of your time can I extract day to day. And that's the way a lot of these companies operate today. And that's the problem.
- [41:39]
A
Adam Alter's book Irresistible is available wherever books are sold and Dr. Caitlin Regare's new book, Smartphone Nation will be released on October 28th. You can pre order that book now. Thank you for being vulnerable enough, open enough, willing enough, courageous enough to share your stories with us here today. Thank you so much for coming this way. As always, thank you to our listeners and this audience for being with us. I'll see you next week. Go well, everybody. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks everybody.