Gray Divorce (after 50) & Adult Children: The Fallout for the Family, with Oprah and Leading Experts

Summary

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The Oprah Podcast: Gray Divorce (after 50) & Adult Children—The Fallout for the Family

Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guests: Dr. Susan Brown (Sociologist), Susan Guthrie (Family Law Attorney), Lori Gottlieb (Psychotherapist/Author), audience members
Date: October 28, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Oprah Podcast explores the growing phenomenon of "gray divorce"—divorce after the age of 50—and the resulting ripple effects on families, particularly adult children. Oprah brings together expert guests Dr. Susan Brown, Susan Guthrie, and Lori Gottlieb, as well as audience participants with lived experience, to discuss the causes behind the surge in later-life divorce, its emotional and financial impact, and the unique challenges faced by adult children when their parents separate.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Rise in Gray Divorce

[00:37–03:11]

• Statistical Trends: Divorce rates in the U.S. are at a 50-year low overall, but the rate for couples aged 50+ has doubled since 1990, and tripled for those 65+.
• Why It’s Happening:
  • The traditional view of marriage as a lifetime institution is eroding; now, marriage is more about self-fulfillment.
  • Increased financial independence for women makes divorce a more viable option.
  • Longer life expectancies mean more people are unwilling to settle for unsatisfying relationships into their later years.
• Dr. Susan Brown (02:20): “Back in 1990, only 8% of people divorcing were over the age of 50. Today, 40%... It floored us.”

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2. Women's Changing Roles and Financial Impact

[03:14–08:46]

• Women Now Driving Divorce: Most gray divorces are initiated by women who want more from their remaining years.
• Financial Consequences: Divorce divides retirement savings and assets, significantly impacting the financial stability of both partners, but especially women.
• Susan Guthrie (08:08): “For someone divorcing at 65, their runway to recoup is almost gone.”

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3. Emotional Fallout: Grief, Shame, and Redefining Identity

[10:03–19:33]

• Shock and Grief: Even in long marriages, one partner’s desire for divorce can be profoundly shocking and destabilizing to the other.
• Social Perception & Shame: Many, especially women, feel embarrassment or shame about divorce after 50.
• Lori Gottlieb (12:09): “You told the story of strength… but when people ask you about it, you feel like they’re saying something was wrong with you. But nobody’s saying that.”
• Navigating Others’ Projections:
  • Oprah (12:48): “You can feel the judgment, Lori. You can feel it when it’s there.”
• Reconstructing Life: Divorce later in life feels like a “deconstruction,” but it’s actually a chance for “reconstruction” and new beginnings.

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4. Unique Issues for Adult Children

[22:05–39:36]

• Adjustment for Grown Kids: Adult children often experience confusion, identity shifts, and even grief, despite assumptions they should be less affected.
• Kayla (Mary Jane’s daughter) (26:01): “We are closer than we’ve ever been. There’s just so much grace…”
• Addison (32:42): Reflects on feeling disoriented and grappling with her parents’ new partners and the shifting definition of family.
• Dr. Brown (35:41):
  • “It’s called Family Boundary Ambiguity… Divorce is disruptive to the family system.”
  • Adult kids often help parents with online dating—a reversal of typical family roles.

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5. The Grieving and Healing Process

[19:33–25:23; 39:49–52:33]

• Divorce is Like a Death: There’s a “mourning” of lost futures, traditions, and identities.
• Longer Recovery for Older Adults: It can take four to five years for older adults to recover from divorce due to deeply entangled lives.
• Coping Mechanisms:
  • Mary Jane shared her practice of writing 100 gratitudes each morning to cultivate positivity.
  • Community and honest conversations are key.
• Lori Gottlieb (49:43): “Action begets action… Every small little step. What can you do today, something small that might bring you joy?”

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6. Restructuring Family: Adult Children as Caregivers

[41:56–48:17]

• Role Reversal: Stories like Tremaine’s illustrate adult children stepping in as caregivers for newly single parents, which requires conscious boundary setting.
• Lori Gottlieb (45:08): “Your roles are reversed… But she’s still your mom and you’re still her son and that hierarchy still exists and you don’t want to dissolve that completely.”

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7. Expert Strategies for Navigating Gray Divorce

[46:41–52:20]

• Susan Guthrie: Develop a clear strategy and vision for your “beyond”—what you want your next chapter to look like. Make divorce settlements with those goals in mind.
• Dr. Brown: Adjusting to divorce takes time, but letting go can ultimately be freeing.
• Lori Gottlieb: Don’t go it alone; talk to someone. Combine recognizing grief with small, forward-moving actions.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Oprah (01:47): “I thought that would shock you. Isn’t that crazy? That never, never used to happen.”
• Dr. Susan Brown (03:14): “Now what we’re doing is turning to our marriages for self-fulfillment.”
• Lori Gottlieb (18:51): “When we’re going through it... it feels like a deconstruction, but it’s actually a reconstruction. You’re not starting from zero—you’re starting from experience.”
• Mary Jane (23:10): “The first thing that I did… was to just set the intention. I did have power over the intention through which I was going to get divorced.”
• Addison (35:11): “I felt like Sandra Bullock from Gravity... I would just like floating out there.”
• Dr. Brown (35:49): “Divorce causes us to question who’s in and who’s out of the family. Now those boundaries become a little bit fuzzy.”
• Lori Gottlieb (51:03): “Grief feels like a death, but the difference is that the person is still around… It’s like being haunted by a ghost.”
• Mary Jane (39:53): “I cried for a year… I literally woke up every morning for the first three months and wrote 100 gratitudes every morning.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:37–02:20: Introduction & startling stats on gray divorce
• 03:14–04:34: The “why” behind gray divorce—self-fulfillment, longevity, women’s independence
• 06:41–08:46: Financial impact for women and men
• 10:30–12:09: Audience member shares feelings of shame after gray divorce
• 16:00–19:33: Children restructuring family post-divorce
• 22:05–27:19: Mary Jane & her daughter describe the family’s journey through divorce
• 32:42–37:49: Addison and Kayla discuss being adult children of divorcing parents
• 39:53–40:34: Healing practices and the slow road to joy
• 41:56–47:19: Tremaine supports his mother after her divorce—role reversals
• 46:41–52:20: Experts’ final advice and audience Q&A
• 51:03–52:05: Grief after divorce—the difference from a death

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Tone & Language

The episode is compassionate, candid, and empowering—Oprah and guests foster a safe, supportive environment for honest conversation, practical guidance, and mutual encouragement. The tone balances empathy with realism, emphasizing both the hardship and the hope inherent in gray divorce and its repercussions for families.

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Summary Takeaways

• Gray divorce is increasingly common, affecting nearly half of all divorcing Americans over 50.
• It brings significant emotional, financial, and familial challenges—especially when adult children are involved.
• Recovery takes time, but with intention, support, and courage, a fulfilling new chapter is possible for all involved.
• Expert guidance: Make a proactive plan for your “beyond”; seek support; honor grieving, but stay open to new beginnings.

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Recommended Resources:

• Dr. Brown’s research: bgsu.edu
• Susan Guthrie’s podcast: Divorce and Beyond
• Lori Gottlieb’s book: Maybe You Should Talk To Someone

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Transcript

[Mary Jane]

I came downstairs and my husband of 26 years announced that he wanted to get divorced. So it was just like the rug being pulled out from underneath me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hello, and a warm welcome to you all. Warm, warm welcome. We're out of the teahouse today and we're in New York City.

[Susan Guthrie]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And my hope and intention for this podcast is that there are conversations that can be additive to your life. And I want to focus on what I see happening in the world, and then we can try to make some sense of it together. So recently I started hearing y' all about more and more people who have been married for decades starting to get divorced. Has anybody else heard this? Yes. Okay. And I thought to myself, well, that never used to happen. You know, once people made it past a certain number, like 20 years, you're just in it for life, just there. You're just going to take yourself all the way to the flatline, you know? So then I find out that even though divorce is at a 50 year low here in the United States, the rate of what's being called gray divorce, that's divorce over 50, is actually soaring through the roof. And listen to this. The divorce rate for people over age 50 has doubled. And for people over 65, divorce rate has tripled.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Wow.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I thought that would shock you. Isn't that crazy? That never, never used to happen. So what is going on? Dr. Susan Brown is the Distinguished professor of Sociology and co Director of the national center for Family and Marriage Research at Bowling Green State University in Ohio. And she has been researching divorce now for more than 15 years and helped coin this phrase that we're gonna be talking about today called gray divorce through her multiple studies on this phenomenon. So, Dr. Brown, tell us what you found. What is going on?

[Dr. Susan Brown]

Well, I think it's fair to say that back in 1990, older people really didn't get divorced. Only 8% of people divorcing that year were over the age of 50. But today, 40% of people who are divorcing in the United States are 50 or older, and 10% are 65 or above. And you know what got me interested in this topic was when Al and Tipper Gore announced back in 2010 that they were calling it quits after more than 40 years of marriage. And my colleague and I were chatting about that and trying to figure out, you know, is this some kind of celebrity phenomenon or is this actually happening to everyday Americans? And so we decided we were going to crunch the numbers, and we were really floored to find out that the rate of divorce for people over age 50 had doubled since 1990.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. And the reason is.

[Dr. Susan Brown]

Well, I think there are a number of reasons. I mean, one thing that we can point to is that the norm of marriage as a lifelong institution is eroding. Because now what we're doing is turning to our marriages for self fulfillment. And when we're unsatisfied, most Americans, including older adults, see divorce as an acceptable solution. We can also point to the rising rate of female labor force participation. The vast majority of wives are working now, and so they can afford to get divorced. They're no longer economically dependent on their husbands. And we can also point to the gains that we've made in health and longevity. Those have changed the calculus. If you survive to age 65 these days, you can expect to live another 20 years, which is a long time to spend with someone you're not that into anymore.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And that's why people are coming to you. Yes. Susan Guthrie was a top family law attorney and mediator for more than 30 years. And six years ago, Susan started the popular podcast Divorce and Beyond. And I just, I really love that title because there is a beyond and it's forward thinking. So Susan, you have worked with just hundreds of people, right, who have gone through this great divorce. And what do you see happening?

[Susan Guthrie]

You know, it's such a good question because I have to say, 30 years ago, like my colleague said, Dr. Brown, we didn't see great divorce. We saw people, you know, in the early stages of divorce splitting up. But then I would say probably 20, 15 years ago, I still remember my first 40 plus year divorce. And it was so unusual that it still stays in my mind 30 years.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So tell us about it.

[Susan Guthrie]

You know, it was a tale that may sound more familiar these days. It was a couple who had met in their late teens. He was a public servant and he worked day shift, she worked night shift. He retired after 42 years.

[Lori (audience member)]

And.

[Susan Guthrie]

Yes, I see, right, yeah, he retired. He was home all day when she was home all day. And they were in attorneys offices within three months.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Susan Guthrie]

Within three months.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow, y'.

[Susan Guthrie]

All.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So it worked. As long as he was out, they.

[Susan Guthrie]

Never saw, I mean, they did have four children, so they saw each other at some point. But when they had to spend those days together, they truly found. And this is what I think I've seen a lot with the gray divorces is two people who, 40 years in, had nothing in common with each other anymore.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Uh huh. Yeah. And now women who are filing more so than men. Right. Women. Feel like I have another 10, 1520 years. Why should I stay in a relationship when there's nothing?

[Susan Guthrie]

When it's not serving me?

[Oprah Winfrey]

When it's not serving me. Yeah. Well, you all know Lori Godlib. She's a psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author of I love this. Maybe you should talk to someone. That's the name of the book. Maybe you should talk to someone. She also writes the Ask the therapist advice column for the New York Times. So, hi again, Lori.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Hello.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Great to see you again. Help us understand what it is women are actually navigating emotionally when they go through this great divorce.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yeah. So it's interesting, you know, we've been talking about the idea that you have so much time left and you really want to think about, how do I want to spend that time. But at the same time, when you go through a divorce later in life, there's. You lose that predictability. You have this idea, this imagined future of I'm going to be with this person and we're going to do these things and we're going to retire in this way and our financial picture is going to look like this and our kids are going to come back to this house and come visit, and all of a sudden there's this great unknown right in front of you. So it can be really disorienting to do this at this time of life when you were so certain that your future was going to look a certain way.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You were locked in.

[Lori (audience member)]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And that's why women take more of a financial hit, do they not, Dr. Brown?

[Dr. Susan Brown]

Yes, they do. They experience a larger drop in their standard of living than men do. Although for men, they're also taking a hit. And I would say for both men and women alike, their levels of wealth, all of their savings they've amassed over decades, that's dropping by half because, of course, divorce entails the division of assets, and at this stage of the life course, it's slow going to recover from divorce. From a financial perspective, it is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're finding the same thing, Susan?

[Susan Guthrie]

Absolutely. You know, for someone who's divorcing at 50, they have maybe 10, 15 years to start to recoup the financial. I'll call it losses. Right. You know, the division of those assets. But for someone who's divorcing at, say, 65, they're there. They're in it. They're in that phase where the retirement funds, the planning they did financially to get them through their retirement years was whatever they had amassed for two people. And now they have to split that up and carry it forward for two people, and their Runway to recoup is almost gone.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I am so glad you chose to spend your time with me here on the Oprah Podcast. When we come back, we're gonna talk about that terrifying but also clarifying feeling when you begin the process of divorce. Stay with us, listeners.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. We're talking about the soaring divorce rate for people over 50. You've probably seen the headlines. It's called gray divorce. Let's get back to the conversation. So I want to bring in a different Lori. There's two Susans and two Loris. Okay. In our audience. Okay, Lori, who is experiencing this in real time. So what happened?

[Lori (audience member)]

So I've been with my husband 34 years, married 28 a year and a half ago, basically said he didn't want to be married anymore. So this month was a year. We've been separated, not legally divorced. So, you know, he just went through something and wanted out.

[Oprah Winfrey]

He went through something.

[Lori (audience member)]

His father died three years ago, and when his father died, his was very sudden. And he said, you know, I could be dead in 20 years, too, so I need to live my life the way I want to live it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. All right. And that was a surprise to you?

[Lori (audience member)]

Yeah, because, you know, when his father died, I. He started to, like, he was going through the grieving process, which I understood, and I. I let him go through it. And I thought, you know, he. He's going through it and he's going to come out of it. You know, I lost my father. I understand that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So do you have a question for any of the Susans?

[Lori (audience member)]

So, actually for Laurie. So when I. This happened to me, I only really talked about it with my really close friends and family, and I didn't really want to share it with a lot of people. But when people started to find out and they would approach me, I was very, like, embarrassed by it and, like, shameful. And I felt like they were, like, jamming me. So I don't know if that's, like, a normal feeling, because I still feel like that It's a year later, and I still feel like my wife. A friend says to me, oh, somebody approached me about you, and, you know, your husband. And I'm like. My first thing is like, why are they asking? I'm, like, embarrassed about it, and I don't know why, because I was an amazing wife, and I was, you know, I did. I didn't do anything wrong, so why am I embarrassed?

[Lori Gottlieb]

Right? You know, it's so interesting because when you told this story to us right now, you told the story of strength. I was in this marriage. I was an amazing wife. I understood his grieving process. He was going through something. But somehow now you have this story that when people ask you about it, that you feel like they're saying something was wrong with you or you did something wrong, but nobody's saying that. So you're creating this story that doesn't exist. I think when people come up to you, they're saying it because they care about you. They're saying, hey, I heard. And underneath that is, maybe, how can I support you? Or you're going through this with such grace and resilience. They might not be saying those other words.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They may not be, and they may. Lori. No, honest to goodness, I'm thinking when you said that, that person is having some kind of judgment. Isn't that what you're feeling?

[Lori Gottlieb]

100%.

[Lori (audience member)]

I was at a funeral not too long ago, and a girl that I haven't seen in years came up to me, and she asked me about me and my daughter, but not my husband. So I knew she knew. And she went. This was exactly how she said it. She went, and how are you? And there was, like, pity on her face. And I was like, why are you pitying me? Because I'm Now a single woman in my 50s. What's wrong with that?

[Lori Gottlieb]

Right. And so I think that that's a projection of how she feels, but it's not your lived experience. Your lived experience is. This is really painful. I'm going through my own grieving process. But you are still saying, I was an amazing wife. I did all these things. Right. So this is all about her. When people come up to you and they have that judgment or pity, that's their own projection of their own fears. You know, is divorce contagious? Is that gonna happen to me?

[Susan Guthrie]

Right, right.

[Lori Gottlieb]

So you have to separate out what this other person feels about herself and not let that be projected onto you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Whereas, you understand.

[Lori (audience member)]

Right, absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, I hear that. I do hear that. That if you're strong in yourself and you know what your reasons are and you know what has actually happened, that when other people's judgment, which they will. And she was judging you, I will say absolutely. When people come up to you. That was not a very caring thing to say, because that's happened to me, too. I remember when I let go of the Oprah show by my own choice, and afterwards I was talking to somebody, was like, how are you? Like, are you really okay? And I could. I could. You could. You can feel the judgment, Lori. You can feel it when it's there. But I think what you just advised her, you know what the real truth is. And so you understand that's her projection.

[Lori (audience member)]

And the first thing a lot of people say to me is, like, are you gonna start dating again? And I'm like, I don't need to have a man in my life. Like, I'm okay being single, at least for now, you know, like, that's not my first thing, you know.

[Lori Gottlieb]

I think there's this misconception, too, about the single woman that there's some pity for the single woman. But let me tell you, in my practice, when I see the men who get divorced, they are shocked because they don't realize how much invisible work happened behind the scenes that ran their lives. And so they all of a sudden realize it is really hard being alone and they don't have as many close social ties. Because, you know, when you say, my partner is my best friend, well, for men, sometimes it truly is. They confide in you. They talk to you. Women have maybe you thought your partner was your best friend, but you have 1, 2, 3 other best friends. Right?

[Mary Jane]

So you are.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Actually.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Women tend to be more prepared to be on their own than men do. So it's interesting that in our Culture, we tend to pity the single woman, and yet she's much more prepared to be on her own.

[Lori (audience member)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a happy, supportive life with my friends and family, so I don't need to date anybody, but if I do, it's fine.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Not right now.

[Susan Guthrie]

Not right now, not right now.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Where's Gabriela? Go ahead.

[Lori Gottlieb]

So I was married for 19 years, together for 21. And about 14 months ago, my husband said that he wanted out, he wanted a divorce, and I was completely shocked.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And because you thought the marriage was.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Fine, we had some issues, but I thought that we had been working on them. So we've been separated now for about 14 months, and there was trust broken in the marriage. And I feel like I have no choice now but to file for divorce. So I'm at the very, very, very beginning of that stage. We have two younger children that are our world. They're 8 and 14. And so we're all going through this horrible time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Does it always have to be horrible?

[Susan Guthrie]

You know, that's such a good question and the first one to ask. And it somewhat goes back to, I think, what Laurie was saying with the. How you doing?

[Lori (audience member)]

Yes.

[Susan Guthrie]

Because we do live in that society that brings shame to the concept of divorce, the idea of divorce. Yet so many people find on the other side that it was eventually the right thing or the right thing for that family. It's really a process. And you just said this, and I think it's very brave, if I may say of you to come and talk about this at a time when you've just filed.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're so vulnerable.

[Susan Guthrie]

Yeah. It's a rough. I sit with people in that space all the time. So bravo to be able to talk about that. You'll help others who hear it, but you're in a space with your husband, your children, where you are going to now restructure your family. And it's going to be something different on the other side. But it's still your family. They're your children who are your world. And in a lot of ways, if you can approach it instead of the disaster which, you know, it may feel like, but many times you can find that way to finding a better structure that works better for your family. So part of it is how we view it. And again, to what Lori said, how the world views it for us.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love that you're saying that it's going to be different because I think so many women and men in this situation, you mourn what was. You spend so much time mourning. What was you're mourning the loss, you mourn the way things used to be. You're thinking about what your holidays are going to be like. You're thinking that mourning what it was. And so just that advice is so profound, is accept the fact that now things are going to be different. What did you want to say, Laurie?

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yeah, and you know, I think that when we're going through it and you're going through it right now, it feels like a deconstruction, but it's actually a reconstruction. And a lot of people say, well, I'm starting from zero. And I say, no, you're starting from experience. You know so much more now than you did before. So you're not a blank slate. You have all this experience and now you can say, what do I want? What's important to me? What matters to me? What have I learned from this? So you're actually starting from a place of strength, even if at the same time. And I'm a big fan of the both and of you're going through the pain and you're going through this reconstruction.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Isn't it also important? Isn't it also important too? Because over, over the years I've done so many shows or had conversations about this and it's like a death and there's a grieving that needs to happen with it that I don't think a lot of people allow for themselves. We except the fact that when somebody has actually died in your family that you were allowed to grieve and process that. I don't think people see divorce as a grief and something that needs to be processed.

[Dr. Susan Brown]

Well, all family members experience what we call separation distress and it doesn't matter who initiated the divorce. It's very much like severing a parent and child bond. And it takes a number of years for people to recover. And we're finding that among older adults, the recovery period is a bit more protracted than what we see for younger people. So it's taking upwards of four to five years to bounce back. So, you know, giving yourself time for.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Older because you would think it would be the opposite.

[Dr. Susan Brown]

Well, I think it's in part because many of them are breaking up these decades long marriages, right. They've just been much more entrenched and involved. They're unraveling much more closely entwined lives than people who have just been married for a couple years and decide to call it quits. These are people who have been married often for 20, 30, 40 years and they've got to disentangle all aspects of their lives. From their finances to their personal relationship, their children. And it's something that takes time, but they do recover.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Aye. Thank you for sharing your time with me here. Up next, we're going to hear from a mother who says her divorce was devastating, but now she's loving her new life. Her story after the break. Lowe's knows how to get you ready for holiday hosting with up to 35% off select home decor and and get up to 35% off select major appliances. Plus, members get free delivery hallway, basic installation Parts and a two year Lowe's Protection Plan when you spend $2,500 or more on select LG major appliances.

[Mary Jane]

Valid through 10.

[Oprah Winfrey]

One Member Offer excludes Massachusetts, Maryland, Wisconsin, New Jersey, and Florida. Installed by independent contractors. Exclusions apply. See lowe's.com for more details. Welcome back to the OPRAH podcast. We're talking about the sharp rise in the rate of gray divorce that is divorce for people over age 50 and beyond. If this conversation speaks to you, share the link with a friend. They may need to hear it. Mary Jane, you want to share your story? Hello.

[Mary Jane]

Yes, hi. My story is in 2021. I, you know, came downstairs and my husband of 26 years announced that he wanted to get divorced. I was pretty locked in, as you say. So it was just like the rug being pulled out from underneath me. Everything that you said, your future that you think is going to be there with your family is no longer and it's just kind of poof, gone. In one conversation, we raised two daughters, one sitting next to me, Kayla. And it was just devastating. It was devastating and kind of felt like I was drowning and didn't know which way how to get air. So I think you lose a lot of power when this happens in yourself and your, your own agency because it's not your decision. But a lot of decisions are going to be dominoing from this decision that you didn't make. So the first thing that I did just, just because was to just set the intention. I did have power over the intention through which I was going to get divorced.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You did?

[Mary Jane]

I did. I did. And that intention was my daughters.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Jane, how did you come up with that?

[Mary Jane]

Well, I've done a lot of well being things in my life. I've taught a lot. So is it within my wheelhouse? I learned a lot from you through the years.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you.

[Mary Jane]

So intention was really important and I knew that my daughters were going to be watching and it was an opportunity for them to watch me suffer and be sad and really just navigate this. And so I wanted to see. I wanted them to see me with hope. I wanted them to see me with resiliency and to always be choosing the high road whenever I got an opportunity.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So how long ago was this? How old were your daughters?

[Mary Jane]

It was four years ago.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Mary Jane]

You know, I didn't want the divorce, but I sit here right now, and I just can't even. I mean, I can't. I could have never imagined how happy I would be. I am so happy. I get to spend time with.

[Lori (audience member)]

Yes.

[Dr. Susan Brown]

Yes.

[Lori (audience member)]

Yeah.

[Mary Jane]

So I get to spend time with my daughters. I have work that I absolutely love. I have people that surround me that I love.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But you were where Gabriella is.

[Mary Jane]

I was where you are, yes. I think very much so. So it's true. For me, it's not a new chapter. It's really just an entirely new book. It's a whole new book of my life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you didn't want it.

[Mary Jane]

I didn't want it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Didn't think it was gonna happen. You were 26 years in, locked in.

[Mary Jane]

Locked in, locked in. So I'm trying to walk every footstep right now in this new book.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Did you grieve? Did you grieve? As we were just talking about, you grieved.

[Mary Jane]

And there's so much grieving because it's not only just the loss of your husband. The domino is the enormous. Like, you lose. It was tough to get a credit card, and I didn't have, like, just the ability to go buy something I couldn't. Like, that was a loss. I mean, the smallest thing, the name that I had.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You lose.

[Mary Jane]

And what does that mean? Well, then you don't really exist anymore on the. On the Internet. Like, it's just. It's just so much bigger and so many little losses that the grief is pretty big.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But you, Kayla, saw your mom go through this, right?

[Susan Guthrie]

I did, yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And.

[Addison]

And, I mean, it was devastating at first. I think we were all shocked, and unfortunately, that seems to be a common experience amongst the women of the front row. But it was beautiful. In another odd way, I think the biggest silver lining was watching my mom actually walk the talk that you were talking about, and you were such a role model and found so much joy, and now we, like, laugh way more.

[Dr. Susan Brown]

Than we ever did.

[Addison]

We have the best time, including. Including coming here today and being on the Oprah podcast. That's a huge silver lining. Thanks, dad. But, yeah, I would say now we are closer than we've ever been. And there's just so much grace that I've seen You exhibit. It's.

[Lori (audience member)]

Saintly.

[Addison]

Honestly, it's amazing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So is it because you were at an age where she could have a conversation because your kids are how old did you say?

[Lori Gottlieb]

14 and 8.

[Oprah Winfrey]

14 and 8. So you can't have the same conversations with a 14 year old and an 8 year old that she would be having with you four years ago. So is it because you were older and you are able to talk about it and cry about it and all those things?

[Mary Jane]

I definitely didn't want to hide my emotions, so that was really important that I would. I could say, hey, you're seeing me cry. And I'm going to be okay. I have to work through this process and I'm going to come out. I'm going to come out of this on the other side. And so I think we were in it somewhat together and I didn't hide anything. But I also always tried to say this is what it looks like to go through a hard thing. You don't just bury it, you gotta work through it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Mm. Do you find that it's a different reaction depending on how old the children are? Susan?

[Susan Guthrie]

I really do. I think it's a very different experience for younger children. They are minors. There's. The entire system is built to try and protect them from what the conflict that might be going on between their parents. There tends to be. And I'm certainly not talking about what happened here. Cause this is beautiful, the gift you were able to give your daughters. But for many of the older adults that I've seen going through divorce with adult children, I've seen the tendency to treat the children as peers, to hear what's going on down in the nitty gritty, as opposed to how we might shelter children from that younger children.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, I heard you did a podcast episode titled Divorce Triage.

[Booking.com Announcer]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Dr. Susan Brown]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And that was about how to just get your way through these first days and months of divorce. What's your advice for those days, which have gotta be terrifying?

[Susan Guthrie]

You know, I've heard from many clients and been through it myself. And, you know, some days it's just hard to get out of bed, but you have to, especially if you have children.

[Mary Jane]

Right.

[Susan Guthrie]

And that, that's actually a gift. It gives you something to get out of bed for and reminding you. I love that you said, you know, you knew your daughters were watching and so they were going to see how you experience this. But what I talked about in that episode is if you have the gift of time in the beginning of your process, and I hope that everyone does because most people treat it like we've got to start the divorce immediately. You didn't. It sounds like you haven't. You know, that's a gift in itself because it gives you that time to get the emotional content a little bit under control so that it's not that emergency triage situation. And then start looking at what your situation might need as it comes to support divorce is, I will say, you know, having been in the industry for so many years, decades, it has changed from a very litigious, adversarial process to something now that can be very collaborative, very supportive, and a process that helps the family work their way through that restructuring. So that's the episode was about how to pull those people together so it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Doesn'T have to be contentious and horrible.

[Susan Guthrie]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, I want to hear from Joanne Joyin.

[Joanne Joyin]

Hello, everyone.

[Susan Guthrie]

Hi.

[Joanne Joyin]

So I am 54 years old. I was married for 30 years and got divorced in February. And mine this past February. This past February. Mine was not all of a sudden, I would say probably year 10. I started to say, this doesn't really feel as loving as I thought it was going to feel. But I stayed in the relationship because I have two children and both of us were from single parent households and we wanted to make sure that our children were raised in a two parent household and so stayed in the marriage. And then I got to age 50 and I said, hey, kids are grown. You know, I think it's time for me to, you know, move on. I have more years, you know, behind me than I do ahead of me. And so for me, it was that decision that I wanted to be happy. My grandmother lived to 102, my mother lived to 96. So I have longevity in my family. I want to be happy. And so I had a job that brought me back to the Northeast where I'm from. And that was like the beginning of our one year separation. And he didn't come after me and I didn't want to go back. And so I started the divorce process and reconnected in the meantime with my old boyfriend, who I hadn't seen.

[Lori Gottlieb]

What.

[Joanne Joyin]

I hadn't seen him in 33 years. And we've been together now and we're very, very happy. So there's life on the other side.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, thank you for sharing that. Are you seeing more people like, like that you, Laurie?

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yes, definitely. And I think it's hard when you're in the beginning of it to imagine, you know, you never thought, like, I'm gonna be with when I'm. When I'm 50. When I'm 60, I'm gonna be with a new person and live in a new city and like Joanne, have a new job and, you know, have this new community. You can't imagine it. And yet what people say is, and I'm so happy and I'm so much more fulfilled in this second part of my life than I ever imagined, even though this wasn't the story that I had written.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, I know. Gabriella's still not there yet, so. But you're hearing it. You're hearing it. So Addison. Addison is an editor at Women's Health, and she wrote a piece earlier this year called My Parents Got Divorced when I was an Adult. Why do I feel so weird now that they've moved on? Addison, what was it like for you?

[Addison]

Hi. Yes, I still feel very weird about it, but, yeah, basically my parents sat my siblings and myself down. I'm the youngest when I was in my late teen years, and they started saying that they were going to be separated. They were waiting to be officially divorced until I moved out of the house. So it was probably a few years later that they officially divorced. But initially I was really upset and I was shocked. But looking back at it, I know it was the best decision for everyone because they really didn't seem that in love or affectionate growing up. I know something my mom has always said is that she feels bad that she couldn't give us an example of a really in love couple. So, of course they both moved on. But something I really held onto was the fact that they both said they were never going to get remarried. And, yeah, you guys know what happened. And so. And so they both moved on with one other person after the divorce. Fast forward, they both. My mom ended up marrying the man that she moved on with, and my dad is now engaged to marry the woman that he moved on with later this month. And so while I am really happy for them, it has been hard grappling with this conflicting identity of being an adult, but also being a child of divorce, because I feel like my grief is somehow invalid. Like, I can't be sad because I'm an adult. I'm not a kid anymore. But.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And this is your parents and this is their life, and they should be allowed to have their life.

[Addison]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And all those things.

[Addison]

Exactly because I do want them to be happy. But, yeah, I. I don't know. The more therapy I've gone to and conversations that I've had with them, I've realized that my feelings do matter. Just because I'M an adult. I'm allowed to be sad even though I am an adult child divorce. So.

[Mary Jane]

Yeah.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Kayla, did you experience any of that? Take the bike.

[Mary Jane]

Yeah, most definitely.

[Addison]

It feels so good to hear somebody else say that.

[Mary Jane]

Yeah.

[Addison]

It's just so disorienting. I don't know what your experience was like, exactly, but I felt that our family was like the centerpiece of so much of my life, all of our lives.

[Susan Guthrie]

And it was the place that you.

[Addison]

Go from and come back to. And like the springing board for me and my sister. I think we were like 19 and 22 when the divorce happened. And to have that just all of a sudden, it's like we were talking earlier this morning at breakfast. I was like, I felt like Sandra Bullock from Gravity.

[Lori Gottlieb]

And I'm the.

[Addison]

And I'm the adult child. Like, I. I don't know if I get to have big feelings about this, but I did. And I would just like floating out there like.

[Joanne Joyin]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think, Dr. Brown, we need to talk about that because I think that people think that because you're older, they think everybody's worried about, as you were saying, Susan, earlier, the younger children. But when you're older, they think you should just be okay with it because that's their lives and you're an adult and you understand. And there's actually a name for this. What's it called?

[Dr. Susan Brown]

It's called Family Boundary Ambiguity. And it's important to note that it doesn't matter what age you are as a child of divorce.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It has consequences. It's so prevalent that it has a name.

[Dr. Susan Brown]

Yes. And it's. This notion of divorce is disruptive to the family system and it causes us to question who's in and who's out of the family. Now those boundaries become a little bit fuzzy and we've got to redefine our roles and relationships. And then when our parents re partner, that's yet another transition that we have to respond to and once again, renegotiate. How are we going to do family now?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Dr. Susan Brown]

Who's a family member? Who's not.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And all of that needs to be acknowledged, does it not? Because as you were saying, it's your identity, it's your. For a lot of people, it's their finances. It's a lot.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Right, right. And then especially like in this case, when new partners come in and you didn't choose those partners, and you may not really want to spend a lot of time with those partners or you may not bond with those partners. And also there's A sense when your parents move on with other partners, there's that, you know, when there's a divorce, there's this grieving process. But when they move on with other partners, there's a finality to it almost that, wow, our family really is different. You can have all the fantasies in the world about who your family is, and then they're married to other people now. And you as an adult, are expected to, you know, they have their lives and you have your life. But I think in a lot of ways, because you imagined the future, too, as being, we're this one family. This is the home I'm going to go home to. I'm going to have one house. The holidays are going to be with both parents. It feels very different. And people think because you're an adult, we wait until they're adults so that they won't have problems with the divorce. But there are so many issues that come up. But nobody pays attention. When kids are little, people are really worried about the kids they pay a lot of attention to. You know, how are the kids doing? How are they adjusting? How are they feeling about it? The kids get to talk about it, and people just don't ask adult children how they're feeling about it.

[Dr. Susan Brown]

And there's a real role reversal here. I mean, when you're the young adult, you think you're the one who's going to be forming a family, finding a partner, maybe getting married, and instead, you're watching your parents date, which is going to be a little painful for a lot of people.

[Joanne Joyin]

Right.

[Dr. Susan Brown]

Like, the roles are reversed and they're trying to understand from you, well, how does this online dating thing work? I haven't been out there in 30 some years, so I think that can be challenging.

[Lori Gottlieb]

I have a lot of therapy patients who say, my mom wants me or my dad wants me to help them with their online dating profile. And they're like, ick, I don't want to do that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think that's scary, though, for couples, is it not? This whole online dating.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yes.

[Susan Guthrie]

I mean, that is. It's funny because you say that, you know, both your parents said, I'm never getting married again.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Okay.

[Susan Guthrie]

I will tell you, it's a rare client who has ever walked into my office saying, can't wait to do that again. You know? So people going through divorce often say.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They won't do it again. Yes, yes.

[Susan Guthrie]

But soon after that, the next question is, when can I start dating? And I think there's an aspect of going through the discomfort of divorce that it's such an uncomfortable experience that there are people who think, I could settle some of this discomfort with finding a new relationship. I could settle. I'll still have to deal with, you know, all of that, but the future will suddenly look like something that's recognizable and all that. So jumping back into dating tends to be one of the first questions and one of the things that people, whether it's an earlier in life divorce, but definitely a later in life divorce. Like, what will dating look like for me and how do I get back out and do it? Not many people have the attitude that you do that I don't need this right now. I like my life how it is. Which, that's wonderful.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's wonderful. And also, not many people have the attitude. Did you immediately think that, oh, my, I'm going to turn this into a wonderful experience and I'm going to. No. Okay.

[Addison]

No.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm just wondering. Did. No, no. First you cried.

[Susan Guthrie]

First I cried.

[Mary Jane]

I cried for a year.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, okay.

[Lori Gottlieb]

At least.

[Mary Jane]

Yeah. I mean, it took a while to get it back together and be and see, like, oh, there's possibility here. And I was really someone that liked to live in possibility. So I woke up, I literally woke up every morning for the first three months and wrote 100 gratitudes every morning.

[Susan Guthrie]

Just because I had to get my.

[Mary Jane]

Brain going in, like, a more positive direction.

[Susan Guthrie]

Lovely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Lovely.

[Mary Jane]

And so I did a lot of those.

[Oprah Winfrey]

All that spiritual work paid off, girl.

[Dr. Susan Brown]

It did.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, it did.

[Mary Jane]

It was all, I mean, you know, I just kind of trust in how life unfolds.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Mary Jane]

So I put those practices to the test and they work.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So time for a quick break. Next. Even if divorce happens after the kids are grown, it still has an impact on them, sometimes even more so than when they were younger. We'll meet a man who says his mother's gray divorce caused him to have a panic attack. We'll be right back with more of our conversation.

[Booking.com Announcer]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Hey, I appreciate you listening and sticking around with us. Let's get back to our conversation about gray divorce. Where's Tremaine? Tremaine, is that you? Okay.

[Tremaine]

Yeah. So my mother and my stepfather have been together for over 20 years.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Tremaine]

So arguably the majority of my life, he's been the father figure at my home. And just this past year, as we were talking about grief as well, we had the unexpected loss of my grandmother. So already in navigating that and my mother growing closely together, our connection grew and our communication grew. And she let me in that she was working towards leaving my stepfather, which threw me for a loop, especially as an adult child. I've just turned 34. I had a panic attack for the first time ever in my life. I never knew really what that felt like because I think I was living in this space of almost a liberation I think is me as a child watching a marriage that never always made the most sense to me and never seeing in a household the love that I thought a household deserved and what my mother deserved. I think I lived in this space of working through acceptance that that was what that marriage was going to look like and that was what the dynamics were going to be. And so when it happened, it kind of threw me for a loop that that was happening. But immediately I also knew, as we talk about emotionally, spiritually, financially, what that was also going to do for my mother. So I made the decision this year. And by this year, just last month, I moved from Seattle, Washington, which is where I've been living for the last few years, to move back to the east coast so that mother could live with me to nap.

[Susan Guthrie]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Good. Good son. Thank you. Good son. You're not going to be there forever for her.

[Tremaine]

No, we've had that conversation as well.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Mom, let me wean you from boundaries.

[Tremaine]

I have a life coach. I have a therapist. We have talked around our boundaries, but as someone who was raised by a single mother before she met my stepfather, I've watched her be a very resilient woman for so long. And so this was my opportunity to come back home and help build that resilience. So not once have I had a regret about it. I'm really excited for what that will do for her. My mother's also still younger, right? She had me younger. She'll be 56 this month. I probably won't be helping her on apps. I'm not there yet.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Tremaine]

But she's actively moving in with me this month and next month, so we are.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you have a question for one of our experts?

[Tremaine]

I do, Laurie. I think, especially for me, navigating a lot of newness for us. Right. And for so long being the child. Right. And now we are shifting dynamics. The child is now the provider. Right. She's living with me. I'm covering a lot of things financially so that she can stabilize to where she needs to be. That also shifts our dynamics a lot right now. And so I think for me, as I'm navigating this, I want to 100%, as I continue to learn who she is as a woman and not just my mother, how do I continue to navigate those boundaries with her and support her in a way that she continues to still have that autonomy and she can still grow while she's also being supported and led a lot by me right now.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yeah, that's such a great question. Because your roles are reversed right now. So now you're almost like the parent taking care of the child. And it's one thing, you know, as a parent, your goal is to have your kids become independent. Like, you don't want your kids living in your basement. Right. You don't want your kids living there forever. And you're saying the same thing about with your mom, that this is a temporary situation. I want to help her build the skills and create the support and the community in the adult sphere, and I mean her age group adult sphere, so that she can thrive. And you are also doing something great, which is taking care of yourself. You're saying, I've got a coach, I've got a therapist. I'm thinking about boundaries. I'm thinking about the time limitedness of this. So you're not doing this blindly, and I think it's a beautiful gesture that you're doing, but I think you want to be very on target about how long is this going to go on? What specifically does she need in place in terms of infrastructure, whether that's finances, community, mental health support, whatever she needs and wean her as a parent does because you don't want her to become dependent on you. And you said, I'm getting to know her as a woman, but she's still your mom and you're still her son and that hierarchy still exists and you don't want to dissolve that completely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, Susan, Dr. Brown and Laurie, can you give us your final analysis, your thoughts on this?

[Susan Guthrie]

You know, I would say this is the time and this may help your mom. So I'll say this. This is the time. If you're going into a later light divorce where there are so many things going on, but having a strategy for that beyond, for that future that we've heard people talk about, having a plan of how you're going to get there, that is probably the single most important aspect. So that you can put in place what Lori was just talking about, the financial that you need, the emotional support that she needs so that your mom's able to move forward in a better way. Strategy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And overall, everybody needs their own strategy. You're also saying. Yeah, yeah.

[Susan Guthrie]

Everybody thinks they fall back on what the law says should happen.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so, yeah, the number one thing you would tell somebody if they were coming into your office today would be.

[Susan Guthrie]

Is know where you're going and what you want that future to look like or at least start to think about it. It sounds like that you both have done that, Right.

[Lori (audience member)]

And.

[Susan Guthrie]

And started to think about what the beyond should look like. And then when you're going through the divorce, when you're negotiating your settlement, as you're making very major decisions about your future, you're making them with that goal in sight to move you forward with your strategy toward that goal. I think that's incredibly important.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. For all families.

[Susan Guthrie]

All families, yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Not just you, Tremaine.

[Susan Guthrie]

No, no, I should.

[Oprah Winfrey]

For all families.

[Susan Guthrie]

Everyone here.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Dr. Brown, as I was saying earlier, you helped coin this phrase, gray divorce. So what are your final words here?

[Dr. Susan Brown]

I would say that, you know, divorce is a process and adjustment takes time. Even though divorce can be stressful, letting go and moving on can be very freeing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. As we've seen here, as we've seen here today, as we've seen here, and as we're going to see in the future. Yeah, yeah.

[Lori (audience member)]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We're with. Yeah, Gabriella, we're with you. All right, miss, maybe you should talk to somebody.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Well, I think that people going through a divorce should talk to somebody. I think it's really important. A lot of people feel like oh, people don't want to hear this or I've talked about it so much, but people do, you know, find your pick, your audience. Well, so you know, whether that's a therapist or whether that's a trusted family member, whoever it is, you do need to talk about it. Also, I think this idea of having a place, action begets action. So sometimes you feel so paralyzed in the unknown, the new story, the different path that you just, you don't know what direction to go in every small little step. So it's these tiny steps. What can you do today? Something small that might bring you joy. It could be, I'm going to call a friend, I'm going to take a walk, I'm going to talk to my attorney because that will make me feel more settled. Is there one small action that you can take every day?

[Oprah Winfrey]

The tiniest thing, today it was I'm going to the Oprah podcast.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Today it's I'm going to the Oprah podcast, right? And not only am I going to the Oprah podcast, but I am going to meet other people who have been through it and have come out the other side. And that's very eye opening. So these small actions and intentions and asking yourself, what can I do now that I couldn't do before? I think is really helpful too. You don't have to have the answers yet, but what was this passion that I kind of put on the back burner? What was this thing that I wanted to do? Am I happy in my career? Do I like where I live? You know, what are the things that bring me joy? And thinking about, how can I bring more of that again, small doses into my life, you have to combine that with, yes, you're in pain. Nobody wants to ignore the pain, but you can do again the both.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And is there a. Well, I know everybody experiences the grief and the pain differently, but how do you know when you've wallowed in it too long? I mean, I thought what you were saying earlier about being able to get out of bed, you know, having children is actually a reason to get out of bed. And for some people who don't, it's hard to get out of bed. How do you know when it's now it's time, girl, get up out of the bed.

[Lori Gottlieb]

The thing about grief and divorce is that, yes, it feels like a death, but the difference is that the person is still around.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right. You can run into them at the safe way.

[Lori Gottlieb]

You might run into them, you might see them on social media. You still will hear about them through your adult children.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm going to.

[Lori Gottlieb]

You know, they're still there, like being haunted by a ghost. And so there's a feeling of, you know, I should be through this. This grief. And the grief, it comes in waves. You know, I think I'm looking at.

[Oprah Winfrey]

All the people going, yes, been through that. Yes.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Right. And so people think, you know, it was doing so well. And then I was at the Safeway and I ran into this person in the produce section, and that really ruined my day. Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No. And the person said, how are you?

[Lori Gottlieb]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And how are you?

[Lori Gottlieb]

Exactly. And so you might have a moment where, okay, you're back there, but you don't have to drown in it. It was like, that was a moment. And now I'm going to move forward in my day. So it's okay to kind of go back and forth with the feelings just because you still. It might be two years later and you have a bad experience.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's like real grief. It's like grief when you're grieving the loss of someone who's passed.

[Lori Gottlieb]

And to know that that's normal and expected, and just because you feel it in one moment doesn't mean you're going to feel it the next. I like to say feelings are like weather systems. They blow in, they blow out. It's rainy, it's stormy, it's sunny. That's what grief is like.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. Wow. Thank you so much. Thank all of you for your advice. Dr. Brown's research can be found at bgsu.edu, and you can find Susan Guthrie's podcast, Divorce and beyond, something you should start listening to wherever you podcast. And Lori Gottlieb's book, of course, is maybe youe Should Talk To Someone. It's available wherever books are sold. Audience, thank you for sharing your experiences with us. Thank you. See you next week.

[Dr. Susan Brown]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.