How to Navigate Life’s Big Transitions with Oprah and Bestselling Author Jim Collins

Summary

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The Oprah Podcast

Episode: How to Navigate Life’s Big Transitions with Oprah and Bestselling Author Jim Collins

Date: April 7, 2026
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Jim Collins (Bestselling author, researcher: Good to Great, What to Make of a Life)

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Episode Overview

In this resonant and deeply sincere episode, Oprah sits down with business writer and researcher Jim Collins to delve into his newest book, What to Make of a Life. Moving beyond his famed studies of companies, Collins turns his attention to the inner workings of human transitions—“cliffs” such as career changes, personal loss, and moments of reinvention—introducing listeners to concepts like “fog” (the confusion after major change), “encodings” (your innate gifts), and “frame” (alignment with those gifts). Together, Oprah and Collins explore how everyone faces profound transitions, how to identify and trust your true calling, and how to move through uncertainty with compassion and self-acceptance. Listeners also hear firsthand advice for navigating life changes through questions from audience members.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Redefining Success: What Are You Encoded For?

• Collins’ Central Thesis: “The key question is not what you are good at, but what are you encoded for?” (00:00)
  • Shift away from the traditional focus on skills toward an exploration of innate, hardwired gifts (“encodings”).
• Oprah’s Endorsement: Oprah underscores how this fundamental switch reframes life’s purpose for everyone, regardless of age or stage (02:30).

2. “Cliffs” and Major Life Transitions

• Defining the Cliff: Major, often forced transitions (relationship losses, career endings, health crises) mark the end of a known phase of life.
  • “Nobody gets through life without a cliff.” – Oprah (06:25)
  • “Cliffs are us. We all have them. And there can be positive cliffs too…” – Jim Collins (11:28)
• Example: Collins’ wife Joanne experiences a career-ending injury as a world-class Ironman athlete, birthing the idea for the book (04:32).

3. The Fog: Living with Uncertainty After a Cliff

• Fog Defined: The confusion, upended sense of self, and uncertainty that follow cliffs.
  • “In the wake of a cliff, we observed these periods of fog where you’re lost, you’re befuddled, you’re confused, you’re disoriented, you’re reeling, you’re uncertain.” – Jim Collins (12:57)
• Personal and Well-Known Examples:
  • Michael J. Fox delayed telling the world about his Parkinson’s for seven years, living in fog (12:03).
  • Oprah shares her own post-Oprah Show fog: “The fog was terrible… I went from one thing right into trying to build a network… and I was in a fog of what do you program and how do you program a whole network?” (13:48)
• Advice: Move through the fog step-by-step, taking the “next right move” rather than leaping headlong into new ventures (15:08, 19:03).

4. Encodings vs. Purpose: Finding Your Frame

• Explained: Encodings are core, intrinsic propensities waiting to be discovered—not just what you do well, but what feels “like a glove.”
  • “Encodings are these discoveries… when you hit them, it’s like when [Toni Morrison] picked up that pencil… it just clicks.” – Jim Collins (24:30)
  • “I know for sure that I was encoded to communicate with people in the way that I do.” – Oprah (24:02)
• Trusting Encodings: The decisive factor isn’t just discovering encodings, but trusting and following them, even without certainty about where they’ll lead (29:23).

5. Competence Doom Loop

• Warning on Career Paths: Becoming “reasonably competent” at something that’s not aligned with encodings can trap people in “success” but drain their inner fire.
  • “This then leads to increased opportunities to do even more of what does not fit your encodings or ignite the inner fire, and you’re getting paid even more to do it. That’s the loop that so many people are in…” – Oprah (53:48)
  • Collins emphasizes compassion for those stuck for practical reasons (53:55).

6. Money as a Means, Not an End

• Arrow of Money: Is work for money, or is money for work? Flip your view so money becomes fuel for your encoded work.
  • “If you understand that money is fuel to do what you’re encoded for, that feeds the fire, rather than the point is to make money.” – Jim Collins (50:46)

7. Navigating the Fog—Advice for Listener Questions

• On Facing Crossroads (Matthew’s Story):
  • Move through transitions by reflecting on past experiences to identify when you felt “in frame.”
  • Keep a “bug book”—observe yourself, document where you thrive (35:18).
• On Savoring Calm After Survival Mode (Sarah’s Story):
  • The fog and clarity phases alternate; flourishing is difficult mid-fog, but calm returns on the other side.
  • Over time, “the fire changes color... it’s more like green and yellow and warming glow. I don’t need that hot molten lava in my stomach anymore. Because now I just want to wake up… so look forward to getting to do what I get to do.” – Jim Collins (43:56)
  • Oprah: “Everything that I do now is basically an offering to help other people see their lives in a more meaningful way.” (47:45)

8. The Gift of Acceptance and Letting Go of Judgment

• Collins on Personal Change: Writing this book transformed him, softening his judgments about others and himself (56:07).
  • “I began to look at people as… beautiful expressions of their own encodings and what feeds their fire… I shifted from feeling frustrated with what people are not to feeling grateful for what people are.” (57:44)
  • Forgiving His Father: After decades of anger, Collins found compassion for his father’s unresolved fog and inability to change: “Now my main feeling for my father is not rage, but real compassion and deep sadness. And that has been an utterly wonderful gift and transformation for me.” (60:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Navigating Life’s Transitions:
  • “Nobody gets through life without a cliff… It’s what you do when the cliff comes.” – Oprah (06:42)
  • “Fog is not a defect. I mean, you’re Oprah. You had fog. I had fog. Catherine Graham had fog.” – Jim Collins (14:20)
  • “The way to get out of the fog is to take just the next right move.” – Oprah (15:08)
• On Encodings:
  • “The key question is not what you are good at, but what are you encoded for?” – Oprah (20:54)
  • “Your encodings are your encodings, regardless of what your parents or anyone else thinks they are or should be. The task, first and foremost, is to trust your own encodings.” – Oprah (29:08)
• On Self-Compassion:
  • “The power of not judging yourself for being in a cliff, not judging when you’re in fog, and to not judge your encodings. They just are what they are.” – Jim Collins (37:40)
• On the Evolution of Purpose:
  • “What I have now is great, pure satisfaction from every conversation… everything that I do now is basically an offering to help other people.” – Oprah (47:45)
• On Forgiveness and Transformation:
  • “When I wrote the last page of the book…I uncontrollably broke down and I cried for an hour… And now my main feeling for my father is not rage, but real compassion and deep sadness. And that has been an utterly wonderful gift and transformation for me.” – Jim Collins (60:00)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:00–03:27: Introduction; premise of the book and reframing life’s core question
• 04:32–06:25: Joanne’s Ironman “cliff” story—the origin of studying transitions
• 07:05–09:37: Collins’ personal first “cliff”—father-son story
• 10:29–12:03: Common forms of cliffs and universal relevance
• 13:18–16:28: Oprah’s fog after ending her show; practical lessons
• 20:01–24:30: Deep dive on encodings and aligning life with them
• 29:23–31:35: The importance of trusting encodings over planning
• 32:27–37:32: Audience Q&A: Navigating career cliffs and identifying encodings
• 39:00–46:20: Audience Q&A: Savoring calm after trauma and transitions
• 47:45–52:36: The changing nature of motivation and inner fire with age
• 53:48–54:29: The Competence Doom Loop
• 56:07–59:18: Collins’ emotional transformation and lessons on acceptance and forgiveness
• 60:00–62:09: Forgiving his father and concluding remarks

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass in embracing life’s transitions with curiosity, courage, and self-compassion. Jim Collins’ research—put through the filter of Oprah’s wisdom and lived experience—reframes setbacks and uncertainty as universal, necessary portals to discovering what you’re truly “encoded” for. Whether you’re in the midst of a career cliff, family upheaval, or trying to trust your deepest gifts, this conversation offers practical advice and heartfelt reassurance that clarity, meaning, and authentic satisfaction are possible—and may even be waiting just over the fog.

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Suggested Next Steps:

• Reflect on your own cliffs: What have been your major transitions? Where are you in “the fog”?
• Observe moments of “frame”—when do you feel most naturally yourself?
• Consider keeping a “bug book” to study your own encodings through lived experience.
• Share this valuable conversation with a friend facing big changes.

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For more, read Jim Collins’ What to Make of a Life, and subscribe to The Oprah Podcast for more wisdom-filled episodes.

Transcript

[Oprah Winfrey]

So I had y' all many revelations reading this book. The key question is not what you are good at, but what are you encoded for? Yep, y', all. It's a different way of looking at your life. Not what are you good at? But what you are encoded for. Hi, everybody. I'm so glad to be with you here on the Oprah podcast. And woo. Am I excited today for you to learn from the man who's sitting with me. Jim Collins is a renowned business writer. He is a researcher who's many books, including his number one New York Times bestseller, if anybody's in business, you've read his book Good to Great. But he says his most recent research project that he spent 10 years working on turned almost everything that he believes on its head. And that research has now culminated in this groundbreaking new book, what to make of a Life. And before we get started, I wanted to say that when I first read Good to Great.

[Jim Collins]

Remember, I do remember.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think it was around 2004.

[Jim Collins]

It was exactly that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Was it.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. I was so charged up by it that I asked you to come to Chicago and speak to my entire staff. Hundreds of people. Right. And I can't tell you how many times I've said, let's confront the facts. Yeah. So, so many times over the years. I was so inspired by that book.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. And it's wonderful to see you again, Jim.

[Jim Collins]

It's wonderful to see you again.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you for coming all the way to my front porch.

[Jim Collins]

It's a very. It's a wonderful front porch.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Jim Collins is a business writer, prolific researcher, and authority. He is best known for his runaway bestseller, Good to great, which sold 5 million copies worldwide and became like a bible for many business leaders. In his new book, what to make of a Life, Jim asks readers to think about their own unique skills and natural gifts and to recognize the intrinsic value of major life transitions. He makes the distinction that what you are good at may be very different from what you are wired to do with your unique, innate abilities and passions. He hopes to help you answer this question. What is your code for what to make of your own life? We often ask the question here on this podcast of what makes a meaningful life. And I just have to say I was intrigued. I was inspired. I was fascinated by every story in this book and, and the way you researched and the way you analyzed what makes a meaningful life. That's what this book is all about for all the notable people that you talk to. And this is what I want to say to you all no matter where you are, what stage you are in your life, this book is going to apply to you because we all have a life, we all want to have meaningful lives. And I look forward to watching this become a bestseller because I think this is a book that should be on people's bedside. You know, you go and, you know, read it and you come back to it and come back to it. Why did you come up with this idea for what makes a meaningful life? I love that title, what to make of a Life.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. You know what's interesting too, is that for a long time I didn't have the title, so I was afraid we'll never publish because I'll never find the title. Yes, but it was buried in the text. What's interesting is I think some people are going to be surprised because I've done all this stuff studying companies and so forth, and why am I looking at the question of life? And as you know from reading, it just has really deep personal seeds for me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In the book, Jim describes cliffs as a time of major life transitions. He explains fog as the period of confusion and uncertainty that typically follows a cliff. Jim believes being in frame means you are in alignment with your natural gifts. And finally, he sees encodings as the essence of what makes you you. So I want to start here. You tell the story of being in Hawaii, and it was your wife, Joanne, who seeded the idea for studying how people move through their cliffs in life.

[Jim Collins]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So can you tell us the Iron man story? Yeah.

[Jim Collins]

So Joanne, we've been married 45 years now. And back in the 1980s, Joanne was a world class athlete. And there's this thing called the Iron Man. And of course that's.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We all know what the Iron Man.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah, the Iron man is. And Joanne was not just doing the ironman, she was competing to win. And she was so wonderfully made for it. She's a competitor by nature, an incredible athlete, so well in frame with it. But in her 1985 race, where she did win the world championship, she had this lingering hamstring injury. And in that race, actually, it was an amazing thing to watch because she had this 10 minute lead with about 10 miles to go.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You write that so beautifully. She had like a 10 minute lead

[Jim Collins]

and then a 9 minute lead.

[Oprah Winfrey]

9 minute lead. 8 minute lead.

[Jim Collins]

Exactly. And the hamstring caught up and she ended up, of course, winning the race, but by only about 90 seconds. And the main thing is the hamstring injury never healed. And here she had this thing that defined her. She was so beautifully made for. She was so exquisite at doing it. And it was being ripped away from her by this injury. And so one morning we're sitting at our little kitchen table and she said simply, just gasped. It was a gasp. She said, I feel like I'm dying. Because this thing that defined her. Imagine if you could never have another conversation. Right. I feel like I'm dying. And I had no answer. One phase of her life was ending. And I think that's when the seed of people go through cliffs where life as you knew it has changed in some fundamental way. Something inalterable has happened. And you have to confront the question, well, now what to make of a life now that that's done, now that that's over, now that this is so changed under my feet. And I think that's when the seed of looking at these people through the lens of their cliffs.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. That's why I love this book so much, is because it demonstrates story after story that nobody gets through life without a cliff.

[Jim Collins]

No one. No one. We studied anyway.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No one. You studied. And I conclude that nobody gets through life without a cliff.

[Jim Collins]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So if you're living a life, you're gonna have a cliff. And so the thing is to be prepared for. Not only be prepared for what you do when the cliff comes.

[Jim Collins]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So let's go back to your first cliff. You begin what to make of a life. It makes me emotional thinking about you going back to visit your father. So let's start with that story. Can you tell us a story? When you were in high school, you took a long bus ride.

[Jim Collins]

I sure did.

[Oprah Winfrey]

To visit your father.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. So I think the deepest seeds of this go back to that. My father.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That makes me so emotional thinking about you as a young boy.

[Jim Collins]

And my dad. I so desperately wanted my father to be a father. And he had taken us off to San Francisco in the middle of the Haight ashbury in the 1960s. And it ended up not just the summer of love, it was also violent. My mom finally took me and my brother and myself back to our. Back to Boulder, where we'd come from Colorado. We lived in this ice cold basement and we didn't have a Christmas tree. But.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So your mama decided, whatever your craziness is, I'm going to be better off being a single mother.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And she took the boys and.

[Jim Collins]

And left. Yeah. Yeah. My mom's just doing the best she can in this really cold basement. And this entire time, though, I just had this. I really hoped desperately Hoped my father would reappear.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Doesn't every kid?

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. It's like, I want a father. Yeah. And so in early high school, I made this little pilgrimage down. My father was living in an adobe hut with a dirt floor in New Mexico. And I had this kind of romantic idea. Like I had this thought, I'm going to bring. It was around Thanksgiving, I'm going to bring him a turkey. And so I got this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How old were you?

[Jim Collins]

It was like early high school. Maybe like 10th grade, I think is basically what it was. Yeah. And I got this prepackaged turkey. And you can picture me, right? And I get on this Greyhound bus from Colorado down to New Mexico, and I'm going down to the adobe hut with the dirt floor and the wood stove. And I had this romantic image that I would bring this turkey, my father and I would cook it in the wood stove. My father would emerge as a father. And I don't know.

[Oprah Winfrey]

He's gonna be so happy that you're bringing the turkey.

[Jim Collins]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you write it so beautifully, Jim. That's why I'm so emotional, because as I was reading it, I thought, oh, this is like a scene out of a movie.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. It's. Yeah. Not a happy part of the movie.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Jim Collins]

And so. And then. And I get there and what's so etched in my mind is that whole weekend my father never asked a question about me that I can recall. And he mainly spent the weekend talking about how hard his mom had made his life. Yeah. And trying to get me to convince her to give him money.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So he. You're the son. You go back to see your father. You're excited to see your father. And he's like, how to get your mom.

[Jim Collins]

My grandmother.

[Oprah Winfrey]

His mom.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

To give him money.

[Jim Collins]

To give him money. Yeah. And I had this. That's when I had this shattering realization, there will never be a father there. And when I got back on that bus going back north to Colorado, that's when for me, my father died while he was still alive. And that was the seed. It's like I'm what, a 15 year old kid or whatever, and I'm looking out at sort of the fog of life. I have no idea how to do it. I have no male role models. I have no sense for how you find your way in the world, what to do with a single life. You only get one of them. And I was just heading out into the Merc, completely unguided. And I think that's when the seed, like I was trying to figure out what to make of a life as a 15 year old kid. And I had no idea. I had no idea how to have an idea.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So here's what you write about cliffs on page 154. You say the cliffs of life can take many forms. And those of you who are listening and watching to us, you may recognize yourself in some of these forms.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In the lives we studied and in our own lives. Here's a short list of possible cliffs that can hit a life. Mourning the end of a significant relationship.

[Jim Collins]

Yep.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Experiencing a dramatic change in personal finances. Dealing with a health event or diagnosis. Feeling upended by a natural disaster. Getting fired or laid off. Seeing demand for your work, job, profession dry up. Discovering that someone important is untrustworthy. Oh my God. Betrayals really are cliffs. For people reeling from a business or professional setback. Losing an incredibly important person in your life. Leaving behind a life defining role, or impossible to replicate experience, or any version of waking up to the fact that one phase of life has come to an end.

[Jim Collins]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You've determined there's no such thing as a cliffless life.

[Jim Collins]

But we, even as you know from the material we tried to find cliffless lives to studied and we, we were unsuccessful. And that's when I concluded cliffs are us. We actually, we all have them. And there can also be positive cliffs too. There can be cliffs where you achieve something and that part of life is over.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So for everyone who's watching and listening to us, no such thing as a cliffless life. It's what you do when the cliff comes. When you get to the cliff.

[Jim Collins]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you write that a lot of people move into what you call fog.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Remember the moment we heard actor Michael J. Fox had Parkinson's disease? He'd had this giant career, first with sitcom Family Ties and then the blockbuster Back to the Future series and so much more. And I thought it was so interesting how you showed us in what to make of a life that it was seven years from the time he was diagnosed to the time he actually told the public and that he was in a fog basically that whole time. Talk about that.

[Jim Collins]

So I expected cliffs, right?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, expected cliffs.

[Jim Collins]

I expected cliffs. Cause it was kind of the study design. I was looking at people matching them at cliffs, et cetera. What I really didn't expect was the prevalence of fog where something happens like a diagnosis or probably. I think you might have met Catherine Graham.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Jim Collins]

When Katherine Graham.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love Catherine Graham.

[Jim Collins]

Oh boy. How can you not love Katherine Graham? Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Catherine Graham.

[Jim Collins]

And she loses her Husband to manic depression, takes his own life, and all of a sudden she has the newspaper on her hands. And what I realized is that in the wake of a cliff, we observed these periods of fog where you're lost, you're befuddled, you're confused, you're disoriented, you're reeling, you're uncertain.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. That happened to me when I ended the Oprah show. I was in a fog for a while.

[Jim Collins]

Okay. So that's very interesting, actually. So that. And I remember when we first met, you were contemplating that. Yeah. And then you decided to go over the cliff. Your own cliff. Right. Here we are today. You're on the other side of the fog. Right. But the fog. Do you mind me asking what the fog was like?

[Oprah Winfrey]

The fog was terrible. I was trying to figure out. I was just talking with the crew last night. We were talking about the things and the shows and the next chapters and the things that I was doing.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Trying to figure out where do I land this? Because I knew for certain that it was time to end the show.

[Jim Collins]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And the big mistake that I made was that I did not wait. I did not take the time to wait a year and figure it out. I went from one thing right into trying to build a network and trying to build a network at the same time that I was ending the show. And. And so I was in a fog of what do you program and how do you program a whole network? It's not the same thing as doing a show every day.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the things that I really, really want people to gain from this book is the self compassion for being in the fog. So first of all, if you go through a cliff, we're all gonna have them. Fog's not a defect. I mean, you're Oprah. You had fog. Yeah, I had fog. Right. And Catherine Graham is. Catherine Graham had fog. Yeah. Right. That you have these periods and your experience. One of the things we learned is I need to move in small steps through the fog.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Well, this is what I learned once I was in the fog.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Exactly what you say about simplex steps.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. So I'm curious.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Once I was in the fog, I realized the way to get out of the fog is to take just the next right move.

[Jim Collins]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So, you know, I took this big leap instead of taking a simple step right after the show, and then I have this big leap and now trying to figure out how to get out of it. What is the next right move? And that was simple step after simple step after simple step.

[Jim Collins]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Go back to the reason why you wanted to do it in the first place, and then take simple steps to get yourself out of it.

[Jim Collins]

And do you mind me, I'm curious. How did you know when the fog had started to clear? So, I mean, so there's this foggy period. You eventually get to simple, taking those next steps to get through it. And at some point, you know, you might be. You know, the fog kind of clears. How long did it take you to get there and how did.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It Took me a couple of years.

[Jim Collins]

A couple years, in your case?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Took me a couple years. So years took me a couple of years. Yes.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I was going through the motions of working and still doing interviews and doing things, but I was still like, this doesn't feel right. This doesn't feel right. This doesn't feel right. And so I was running around the. So I went from having a show where people came to me every day on the show, and I decided, okay, done with that.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Now the next chapter, I'm running around the country interviewing other people.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm, like, taking the crew all around the country and around the world. And I was like, well, this doesn't feel right either. So. Yeah.

[Jim Collins]

And when did. Did the fire dim at that time? Or was it just.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, my. My fire dimmed. My fire. It was like, this doesn't feel like this is coming from a truthful, authentic place for me. And so I'm going to end this and figure out what is the next thing to do.

[Jim Collins]

And was there a time you knew the fire had come back?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Actually, when I started doing this.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was right back in frame.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right?

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. So I could have been in your study.

[Jim Collins]

Oh, 100%. I mean, let's just talk about what chapter you're in.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We need to take a quick break. Next, Jim explains no one has a life without cliffs. And he details the best way to work through the inevitable fog after a cliff.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

back to the Oprah Podcast. I'm talking with best selling author Jim Collins about his extraordinary new book, what to make of a Life Now. Isn't that the question? I know you're gonna love this book. Let's get back to it. But I think it's really important to reemphasize that the fog is not a defect. Fog that is not a defect that people go through.

[Jim Collins]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Jim Collins]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

When you have come through the cliff, period.

[Jim Collins]

Yep.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And how do you get through the fog sooner? What would you say is the best advice for that?

[Jim Collins]

People might be surprised to know that it took you a couple of years. Right. You must have it all figured out. But to know that it could take you a couple of years and the way you get through what we based learned in the study is you take these steps. Right. You're kind of wandering through the fog. And if you try to jump just because you want to get out of the fog, like I'm uncomfortable in the fog. I've got to have an answer. You just might jump right off another cliff. But if you just sit still, you don't go anywhere either. So it's a matter of you got

[Oprah Winfrey]

to take some kind of action.

[Jim Collins]

Steps. Exactly. Steps. I don't know what, I don't know what's on the other side of the fog. So I just look around at what's right in front of me. I'll take this step and once I sit there, then I'll kind of look around again and I'll take the next step. You know, taking the obvious next step. Just step, step, step. And the fog gradually becomes to clear. But while within that. Yeah. When you describe, you're back to this. Right. So I started back.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I actually started doing super soul. I started doing interviews with thought leaders.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because that is what really feeds my soul and feeds my interest. And it's what I want to do to help people live better lives. So trying to do other kinds of programming was not working for me.

[Jim Collins]

And what part of the path out of the fog, especially if the cliff is shatteringly unexpected, then you can be really, really lost. But the whole first part of the book has to do this thing with coming into frame with your encodings, the things that really.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, that's what I want to talk about. Now let's talk about encodings.

[Jim Collins]

Exactly. And I think the key is you iterate to eventually get back in frame. And what I love about your story is, in a way, you went out and then you circled back, circle back.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I did the encircled back thing.

[Jim Collins]

You did, yeah. And now it's a different set. But the encodings, the being in frame and.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, let's talk about that so people know what we're talking about. So I had you all many revelations reading this book, and I think you, Jim, for giving us a new language, actually for explaining the fullness of purpose. Because people I know put so much emphasis. You all do. And I have too. Every, you know, graduation speech is about your purpose. Your purpose, your purpose. And I think that this is a crucial line in the book you write. The key question is not what you are good at, but what are you encoded for?

[Jim Collins]

That's right. Yep.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Y', all, it's a different way of looking at your life. Not what are you good at? But what you are encoded for. So can you explain how is it different encoding versus purpose?

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. So encodings are like these capacities we have that await discovery through the experiences of life. And you and I have. You have a set of encodings, I have a set of encodings. And most of them I think we will not discover when our life runs out. We just hope to discover some of them. And that what happens is it's like a constellation and then there's a window frame. And at any given moment, the frame is either not many encodings shining through, or it shifts and a whole bunch of encodings are shining through the frame and they activate and it's like it just clicks. So somebody who I know you love. I fell in love with studying Toni Morrison. Yeah, I wish I had the joy that you had of knowing her having.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But talk about one of the great joys.

[Jim Collins]

One of the great joys. So she had always been about books, but when she took up that pencil,

[Oprah Winfrey]

she was encoded for being an author.

[Jim Collins]

So encoded for being an author. And it was like, once it clicked, it was just like, bang.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And she didn't prior to that, she was an Editor and doing things for other people.

[Jim Collins]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And then she started to write the Bluest Eye. Because it was a book that she mostly. She wanted to read, to read herself.

[Jim Collins]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And she thought, I'm gonna write this book because I wanna read this book. Because nobody's writing stories about black girls like this, so I'm gonna write a book that I would wanna read. And then when she started writing, she realized that she was not only born to write, she was encoded to write.

[Jim Collins]

Totally encoded. And she couldn't. There's one of my favorite little vignettes. And, you know, we'll just keep with the conversation, but it's just one that so sticks with me. She's at home writing with her number two Ticonderota soft lead pencils. Right. That was what she loved to write with. And these lined pieces of paper. And she's writing and she has this sentence that has to get out. Right. And one of her sons, toddler at the time, comes up and kind of spits up on her paper. Yeah. And she doesn't wipe away the spit. She keeps writing because she's like, I can wipe that away later. But the sentence can't wait.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right. And the sentence is right here.

[Jim Collins]

I can't lose this sentence.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I don't want to take the time to even wipe the spittle. Right.

[Jim Collins]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And let's just say this started in her 40s. She was in her 40s when this happened.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Jim Collins]

And actually, I think that's one of the really uplifting things about this study is you can find either a first frame or new frames later in life. So this idea that somehow. Well, to be a novelist like Toni Morrison, you must have had to been doing it, like, from year 18. She was in her 40s, as you know, and that's when she started writing. And it was a discovery for her that I'm a writer. Yeah. Yeah. And then she never stopped. Right. Once she was in frame, once she was doing what she was encoded for, I mean, she would do it until she simply couldn't anymore.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right. Writing was the thing that fulfilled her and gave her. And the same thing for me. I mean, I started speaking in the church when I was three, four years old. That's how I got my validation. I know for sure that I was encoded to communicate with people in the way that I do and to continue this trajectory of self renewal for myself and to help other people get it. But it started with little Bible verses speaking in the church. So I am encoded to be a communicator.

[Jim Collins]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Encoded.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. And it's a discovery, right? That's the thing that's different about a strength versus an encoding. You turn your encodings kind of into super strengths, but you can make yourself strong at something by just sheer willpower and study or practice or whatever. Encodings are these discoveries that when you hit them, it's like when she picked up that pencil. Or when you discovered, I can ask a question, I can be in a conversation. Or when John Glenn got in an airplane for the first time, the aircraft was like a glove on his hand that just extension.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. You were saying, John Glenn and Gordon Cooper, that they were not just great astronauts, but encoded to be totally.

[Jim Collins]

I mean, I don't know about you, but I'm reasonably confident that if I were on top of a spaceship or I was in a fighter jet with somebody chasing me in the sky, trying to knock me out of the sky, my heart rate doesn't go down. Theirs. John Glenn's heart rate was about the same as being on his couch watching tv. And Gordon Cooper, before they launched into

[Oprah Winfrey]

space, he took a nap, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You tell that, too. He took a nap.

[Jim Collins]

He took a nap. So that sense of their encoding to be calm under that incredible intensity of you actually might die the next moment, and you have to perform. That's an encoding. And then they.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You can't even be trained for that.

[Jim Collins]

It just is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, it just is.

[Jim Collins]

It just is. And then, of course, the great challenge in their life was the cliff of the end of that and had to find new things. But that's what encodings are. When the frame clicks. And then, of course, as you were describing earlier, you also know when you're out of frame, right? So the same person with the frame shifts and now you're out of frame is sort of languish. And the challenge then is how to get back in frame. Back in frame with the encodings. I love how you light up about your friendship with Toni Morrison.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Have you ever encountered a writer like that?

[Jim Collins]

Oh, I mean, you better be ready for some serious mental exercise.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I know when I finished reading her book Beloved, I remember looking her number up in the phone book or calling Nyack, New York, and getting her phone number. That's just when people used to be listed. There used to be a phone book, y', all, and there used to be such a thing as a phone book with people's numbers in it, anyway, and I called her And I said, Ms. Morrison, I just finished reading your book. Beloved. And how extraordinary it was for me and experience it. I said, but do people tell you they have to go over the sentences? And she said. She paused, and she said, well, that, my dear, is called reading. Yes, yes.

[Jim Collins]

In that voice.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In that voice.

[Jim Collins]

In that voice.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In that voice. I think it's so interesting that you would say that. My eyes light up talking about her, because one of the greatest lessons of the Oprah show was when she said, do your eyes light up when you see me? Does your face light up when you see me? All the mothers in the audience gasp. And it's interesting to see. When a kid walks in the room, your child or anybody else's child, does your face light up or. And that's what they're looking for. When my children used to walk in the room when they were little, I looked at them to see if they had buckled their trousers, if their hair was combed, or if their socks were up. And so you think your affection and your deep love is on display because you're caring for them. It's not. When they see you, they see the critical face, what's wrong now? But then if you let your. As I tried from then on to let your face speak what's in your heart. Because when they walked in the room, I was glad to see them. It's just as small as that. You know, many years later, people told me that changed their interaction with their children, no matter, which is so important today because people are so, you know, engrossed in their phones, their kids coming in a room, you're not present at all. But do your eyes light up when I come into the room? Ms. Toni Morrison.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. So on page 173, you write, what if your parents have expectations for what you're supposed to do?

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I know some of you are going through this, but their expectations do not fit with your encodings. What if following the expectations of your family knocks on everything that you actually want to do in your life and sends you into the fog? What if those expectations prolong the fog so that it lasts not just years, but maybe decades or maybe even your entire life? Your encodings are your encodings, regardless of what your parents or anyone else thinks they are or should be. And the task, first and foremost, is to trust your own encodings.

[Jim Collins]

Yep.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love that.

[Jim Collins]

Yep.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But so many people are living their life based upon what somebody else's expectations are or what they think the expectation should be. And the question we should be asking is, what am I encoded for?

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think actually what? Somebody asked me, somebody who'd read an early version of the manuscript, asked the question, what is more important, discovering your encodings or trusting them? Ooh. And the more I thought about that, because I'd just been studying the lives, I think what really stands out to me is I think we're all getting clues all the time about our encodings, Right. We hit something and it's like, oh, that clicks. That feels natural. Or I feel really drawn to do that. Whether whatever it happens to be flying jets or doing music, singing, conversing, whatever it happens to be. Right. And then there are messages, voices that, well, but you should be this or you should be that. And what really stood out to me about all the people that I studied is when they got those clues and when they felt those encodings starting to come through the window, the really critical thing was they trusted them. They trusted them. And they didn't know where they were necessarily leading. Right. It's not that they had a plan. Yeah. It's not that they could sketch out and say, well, that'll leave me here in five years, in ten years, or whatever. It was just, I have to do this. I have to solve genetics puzzles. I'm really interested in these computers, as Grace Hopper was, or I have to fly, or whatever it is. And then, even if your parents are saying, we were talking earlier about John Glenn, they were initially disappointed that he became an aviator. First of all, they were afraid he might not survive. But the other is they hoped he would come into the family business if he didn't do that, that he might become a doctor. And he actually had to convince them to let him get his pilot's license. And then when he decided to stay in the Marine Corps and then go on and become a jet fighter pilot, then eventually an astronaut. His parents, I think, ultimately were, of course, very proud of him, but they had a different vision for him. But what happened is when those encodings lit up when he was in that aircraft, he trusted them enough to basically say, I'm hewing to the encodings. Yeah, I'm trusting them. And if somebody were to say, well, what's the plan? Yeah. The answer might be, I don't know what the plan is. I don't know where it will take me. All I know is that if I trust these, they will go someplace interesting.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Time for a short break. If you're facing a cliff in your own career, you will want to hear what Jim has to say about how to navigate it. Back in a moment.

[Jim Collins]

This episode is brought to you By Fandango.

[Oprah Winfrey]

People say fans are too distracted these days, but the truth is when a

[Jim Collins]

great movie hits the screen, you show

[Oprah Winfrey]

up, you stay glued, invested, part of the story.

[Jim Collins]

And without fans like you, there'd be no cinema magic, no shared moments. So head to fandango.com to get tickets, stream or rent or buy top movies and series. Fandango loves fans.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Welcome back. I hope you're as energized as I have been by this conversation with Jim Collins. I cannot recommend this book enough. I think you're gonna have so many ahas and see the potential of your own life and career. Well, we have a couple of people who have questions for you.

[Jim Collins]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Who are joining us. Matthew lives in New York State. I hear you willingly jumped off a cliff, a so called cliff, the cliffs that we're talking about today, just last year. Tell us what happened. Yeah. So I had been with Nike for about 15 years and decided to step down from a role in communications that I had. And it was an intentional decision for me to leave. And I'm grateful for the experience, but I just felt within myself that I knew that it was time to explore something else. And as you've been discussing, you know, cliffs and fogs, I'm certainly in a place right now of kind of wading through the fog without the familiar conditions that really shaped and defined my identity at my job for so long. And while I'm really excited about what's ahead, I'm also adjusting to not really having the same structure that I think I really grew up professionally over the last 15 years. So, Jim, my question for you is when you're at a crossroads and the next chapter is not really defined, are there tools or disciplines that you can recommend to stay grounded during this time of transition?

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. Yeah. It's a wonderful question. So first of all, welcome to the fog and there's nothing wrong with you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

As you just heard. I was in it for quite a couple of years.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. You might be there for a while. Get used to it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Jim Collins]

And you have brought about your own cliff and you can do that. I think that we've already talked about some of it with this notion of taking the series of next best steps. Right. This simplex stepping where I'm just going to take the next best step. The next best step and just iterating through the fog. That's part of it. It will take whatever time it takes. But I would offer this would be a great time to reflect on your experiences and ask what have all your experiences taught you about Your encodings, if you look back on. So you're in your 40s, is that right? Approximately. Okay, so you've got two, three decades of empirical experience as to. And if you kind of go back through and you were to say, you know, if I look at these experiences, this is when I really felt in frame. These are the times when the encodings, like, if I were to picture a time of, like, the encodings lit up, they were in this experience and this experience and this experience. And those are clues as to what those encodings are, because you've already hit them in some way. And also when you felt the fire at the strongest. Right. And when those two go together, you want to capture those. And so part of it is, again, you want to trust, sort of. It's like they're a compass as you simplex up through the fog of what are those encodings? When I was really lost in the fog in my 20s, I was really lost in the fog of youth. I created a little thing I called the bug book. And the idea was that I had a little lab notebook, and I wrote my name on the front of the lab notebook.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you studied yourself.

[Jim Collins]

I studied myself, exactly. And I.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You were that kind of guy.

[Jim Collins]

Exactly. And I studied myself like a bug. And what I meant by that was I made sort of observations. The bug named Jim really finds meetings that go nowhere and consume all his time. Really irritating. Right? Well, so I'm not encoded for that. I was not encoded for good political machinations. I had no capacity to understand them and so forth. And so.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But.

[Jim Collins]

And then I noted some other things that happened where. Like when I had to make sense of something and teach it, bang, all of a sudden, everything clicked into frame. And so this. This bug book of myself, as if I was studying myself that way, became kind of my guide to iterate through, to eventually pop into frame. And the great challenge for you is, what's the next version of being in frame? It might be something really different than what you did before. We have people in our study who went from something over here to something over here, but they were both in frame.

[Oprah Winfrey]

John Glenn. All the way to Congress.

[Jim Collins]

All the way to Congress. So you just have to find something where a big chunk of your encodings are in frame.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But I can tell you, this book is gonna be so helpful to you, and you're going to be so inspired by seeing the trajectory of other people's stories. And in your 40s, I mean, you were a baby.

[Jim Collins]

Oh, you were so young.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You were so young. I mean, the fact that what is so inspiring to me about this book is that there's so many people in their 60s and 70s companies who are, you know, who send the circle out and then come back and then try something new and that it's never, never, never, never over. Especially if you understand what you're encoded for and you're operating from what it is you are really the strongest at and what you were really meant to do and meant to be, and how are you, how your life is to be used here on the planet. That's what I love so much about what to make of a life.

[Jim Collins]

Can I give you one last little thing? Something we learned is that so some of the people, when they went through a cliff and they were really looking at what's next. Think of it as maybe when you were a kid, there was a seed of something that got planted that you never watered because your life went a different direction. And you could water those seeds for a whole marvelous next chapter in your extraordinarily young life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. All the best. All the best. So what holds people back from maximizing their encodings?

[Jim Collins]

So this book really changed me in so many ways working on it. And one of the things that really became clear to me is both in looking at others and in looking at yourself is the power of not judging yourself. First of all, not judge when you're in a cliff, not judge when you're in fog. And to not judge your encodings. Right. They just are what they are. This sense of self acceptance of, I'm not going to spend a lot of time saying, well, but I should have different encodings or I should be a different, you know, X, Y or Z. I think that when people have, whether it's the judgment of others or the self judgment, I think that makes it really hard for them to be in frame. And for me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And by in frame you mean in

[Jim Collins]

sync, in alignment with the encodings and what feeds your fire.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, it means in alignment with what you're supposed to be doing.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah, exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And the reason so many people are out of alignment, out of frame, is that they're wanting to be something that they're not actually encoded for.

[Jim Collins]

That's right. Yeah, that's right. And I think part of it is also you can let your ambition drive you out of your encodings. Right. Because if you encode, if you think, well, I have to achieve this, what if it's not what you're encoded for?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, well, I want to just. We have one more zoom Sarah.

[Jim Collins]

Oh, wonderful.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Sarah joins us from Chicago. She's an AI neuroscientist who I hear is feeling a little overwhelmed. Hi, Sarah.

[Sarah (AI Neuroscientist)]

Hi, Oprah. Hi, Jim.

[Oprah Winfrey]

AI neuroscientist.

[Jim Collins]

I feel overwhelmed by that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I feel, I feel overwhelmed saying AI neuroscientist. What does that mean? You, what does that mean?

[Sarah (AI Neuroscientist)]

It means I'm a neuroscientist who has built AI for 21 years now. And essentially I look at how the brain is impacted by the use of generative AI and agentic AI. So I've been doing this a really long time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And your question for us today.

[Sarah (AI Neuroscientist)]

So just some context. Jim. Oprah, thank you for having me be part of the conversation. This past year has been one of the most transformative seasons of my life with many cliffs. I turned 40, I restarted my PhD after delaying it for over a decade. I moved from Canada to the U.S. i'm helping my 15 year old son transition into a new high school in a new country. And I'm on a global book tour. This isn't the first time that I've rebuilt. Earlier in my life I survived cancer and sorry, Jim, I'm getting a little emotional, but I left a marriage when My son was 2 and I raised him alone for 11 years. Then my question for you is, once you've lived through so many transitions and one, survival feels like second nature, how do you learn to truly savor a season that's calmer? And do you believe everyone can do this?

[Jim Collins]

Wow. So the savoring of the calmer. So first of all, are you in the calmer mode now or are you still in the tumult mode?

[Sarah (AI Neuroscientist)]

I feel like I should be in the calmer mode, but it's very difficult to embrace all these wonderful things that are happening because there's also a lot of change for everyone in our family.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. So there are these two kind of different phases of life that we saw in the people in the study. And they're kind of the fog phases, the tumult phases, the post cliff phases. And then there are these phases of great clarity. And what I'm really struck by is how they really feel very, very different in the sense that when you're coming through the cliff or you're really going through the fog, one of the questions might be, do people flourish when they're in the middle of that? And actually, I don't think the answer to that is that they do. I think when you're really in the fog and when you're really in the cliff mode, that's not a time of great flourishing. It is a time of wandering. It is a time of angst. And it's a weird kind of struggle because it's not like, well, I'm on a mountain and I know what the mountain is, and I know what it'll take to get to the top. It's a struggle of. I'm not even really sure what mountain I'm on or whether I even want to be in the mountains. And that's a different kind of struggle. Right. And so I think that everyone is going to feel in those times that they're not really flourishing. I think that's just a brutal fact. The thing that the study teaches me is that people get to the other side and it might take a really long time. And when they get to the other side, all of a sudden it switches from lack of clarity and befuddlement to, like, the searing clarity. And when you have the searing clarity back again, then the way it really feels is, I don't know if it's an interesting word, calm. It's full of energy and a sense of movement and a sense of sitting forward in the saddle in a sense of like. That's just like I am now. I'm no longer bumping along. I am going. But the external is propulsion, but the internal might be more calm in the sense that it's. You feel like I've clicked back in frame. I'm calm with that, but my energy is incredibly directed now that I'm on the other side. And those kind of fog phases and clarity phases really stood out. And the same people can have a period of great clarity followed by fog, then followed by great clarity again, then maybe fog again. And they're distinctly different in how they feel.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Are you having trouble accepting the goodness that's come into your life? Are you having trouble accepting it and receiving it?

[Sarah (AI Neuroscientist)]

I sometimes feel that the more that I do, the more I have to justify, you know, exciting book tour, exciting things with TV and all sorts of wonderful things. And I.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What's your book?

[Sarah (AI Neuroscientist)]

What's your book? It's a hundred ways to future proof your brain. It's got a giant brain on it. So it's a hundred ways to future proof your brain. But I love what Jim shared because I do feel a struggle to distinguish between the fog and the clarity and this pressure that I put on myself that I need to still justify, I still need to perform.

[Jim Collins]

Here's the one thing I'd really pass along is you sort of don't know the outcome of the entire life until it's done and that the flavor can change. And I'll just share with you a personal thing that's really changed for me. I really relate to this notion of when you're at a certain phase of life. I used to describe it as having these hot coals in my stomach. They're like these burning fire filled coals, almost like molten lava in there. And I think it goes back to feeling neglected by my father and a variety of other things. But like that need, I've got to perform, I've got to deliver, I've got to write that incredible sense. And I always used to worry that if I lost that, I'd lose my drive. And what's happened, and I think it happened for the people in our study over time is the hot molten fire did go away, but the drive didn't go away. What happened was the fire changed color to where it is more like green and yellow and warming glow. That I don't need that hot molten lava in my stomach anymore. Because now I just want to wake up at four in the morning and jump out of bed. Because I so look forward to getting to do what I get to do. And what I would really hope for you is that that molten lava of perform and deliver and all that gets replaced by this sense of it someday. You say I don't need that because the fire I have now warms me from within so strongly and it will stay till I'm out of breath.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love that.

[Sarah (AI Neuroscientist)]

Thank you so much for that, Jim. I look forward to that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I look forward to that too. When the fire is not molten hot, but that it's just a warm glowing presence that abides with you and carries you and that you can enjoy, you can find great satisfaction. Because what happens when you're so into the fire, into the fire, everything that's happening becomes so intense that you aren't even able to absorb it. You're not able to absorb the book tour and what it means to have accomplished the writing of that book. You're not able to absorb what it means for your son to move to another school. And that transition because you're just going from one, the velocity is so intense that you can't take it all in. And I will tell you that what you just shared is a beautiful thing. We both wish that for you.

[Jim Collins]

We really do. And I wish you great success with your book.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Sarah (AI Neuroscientist)]

Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Oprah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you.

[Sarah (AI Neuroscientist)]

I look forward to being on the other side.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, thanks, Sarah. Good luck to you.

[Jim Collins]

May I ask you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Jim Collins]

Did the color of your fire change?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, absolutely. I'm just, you know, doing the. First of all, nothing was better. Nothing was better, nor will ever replace or should the years of the Oprah show. There will never be a time like that again for me, and I think for all the team members. I mean, the. And that's what I mean by the velocity and the intensity. And I can speak to that because I know that so many things happened at such an intense rate that I don't remember half of it. I don't remember because we were just sitting around the table the other night talking with the crew, and they were saying, this story and this story. I go, I don't remember that. I don't remember that because I was just going at such full speed. And so now what I have is great, pure satisfaction from every conversation. So I'm not going from this conversation to the next conversation to the next conversation. I'm not trying to feel, you know, 200 shows a year. I'm not trying to, you know, prove anything. First of all, you. Neither you nor I have anything left to prove. Right. We've done it. We've, you know, reached the pinnacle of success and achieved and all of that. So everything that I do now is basically an offering to help other people see their lives in a more meaningful way and what to make of their lives. That's what it's all for, for me.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. And I think. I think that's because one, the fire changes color and you are at this different phase, then these amazing things happen late. And this notion that somehow we have this peak when we're young and then it goes like this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, that's the thing I was saying, no matter where you all are in your life, this book is going to be so valuable to you. Because I'm so shocked at the number of people who've done extraordinary things to read that. Meryl Streep. Most of her Academy Award nominations came after age 60. Yeah.

[Jim Collins]

She did so many of them. She was. I mean, talk about somebody who's encoded. Yes. And has been in frame doing this for so many years. And that was a place with her story. I watched every one of her films in sequence, which was very interesting.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, as I was reading about her films, I was thinking, gosh, you know what? I'm gonna have myself a Meryl Stream festival. You should.

[Jim Collins]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm gonna have myself a Meryl Streep festival and watch all of those movies.

[Jim Collins]

That's right. And you see the evolution. You can see different phases of life playing different roles. But what's so interesting is she has more Oscar nominations than any other. By, like, a factor of two.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Jim Collins]

And they don't stack early. They're spread throughout. And she has about half of them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Her first one was at age 29.

[Jim Collins]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

For dinner.

[Jim Collins]

And then she gets all the way out into her 60s, and she has as many nominations in her 60s as when she was in her younger years per decade. It's amazing. And the fire hasn't gone out. You can just see that it just gets burned.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. We're just waiting for Devil Wears product, too.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. So I found this to be a seminal question that you posed on page 99. Stop and think for a moment. You say, what is the relationship between work and money? I love this. Y' all are gonna love this. Is the purpose of work to make money, or is the purpose of money to be able to do one's work?

[Jim Collins]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, that depends on how we define and think about work. I think people get really caught up in the money thing. How do you flip the arrow of money, as you say?

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. So that was, like, a really critical thing for me to see was that it wasn't about just the economics. It was about what's the direction the arrow goes. Yeah. And there's so many different people that illustrate this in the study. But, you know, I think about Maurice White, the founder of Earth, Wind and Fire, you know, and he's doing one meal a day that cost a dollar. So a dollar a day. A meal a day while he's getting his music going to eventually get to do Earth, Wind and Fire. And he didn't do music to make money, but he needed money to do music.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right. Right.

[Jim Collins]

And so he had to do the gigs and he had to put things in place. But then later, when Earth, Wind and Fire was really going, it was really interesting. He would do these albums with the band, but then he always took the money from that and put it back into doing more music and more spectacular performances. Oh, my goodness. Some of those performances were.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you remember?

[Jim Collins]

I do. And then putting it right back in. And then those would generate economics to do more. And so it's like, if you understand that money is fuel to do what you're encoded for, that feeds the fire, rather than the point is to make money. The problem is, if the point is to make money and then you make money, what do you do next? If the point is, as we were talking earlier, we don't need to do Any of this for money. Right, but that's. But if that's not the point anyways, you never want to stop because.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But I will have to say, even in the years of the Oprah show, when I first started doing that show, if they had told me you were not going to make any money doing this show, I would have done it. I mean, the. One of the most important moments of my life was doing the Color Purple. I did that for $35,000. And I remember when my lawyer was saying, I'm going to ask them for 50, and I go, no, don't ask them for 50, I'll do it for 35.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So I've never actually made any decision based on money. I've never done anything for the purpose of making money.

[Jim Collins]

And actually, can I spend on just a moment on this? Because we have some people in our study, like Robert Plant from Led Zeppelin, who just went on with his singing, doing amazing things late in life, and he turned down the opportunity to do one of the probably the first billion dollar reunion tour with Zeppelin, and he decided not to do it. And people say that's easy because he's already wealthy. And what I want people to understand is that Robert Plant's circumstances changed, but the reason he did what he did was always the same. So he started out without money, then ended up with a lot of money, but his motivation was always the same, which was to sing. And so I'm curious if that's true for you, that the motivation has always been the same.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Motivation.

[Jim Collins]

It's just the circumstances are different.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Exactly. And the fact that I was encoded to do that talk show I was encoded to do that is what allowed me to be so successful at it. It was as natural as breathing to me.

[Jim Collins]

That's right. Yeah. It was like Gordon Poopoo, the most

[Oprah Winfrey]

comfortable, the most in front of an audience. Okay, I want to talk about this because so many of you are going to be able to relate to this. And Jim talks about in what to make of a Life, the Competence Doom Loop. I've seen this so many times during my working career. And you Write on page 111, one of the great traps of life and see if this is you. One of the great traps of life is the curse of the Competence Doom Loop. It goes like this. You become reasonably competent at something that doesn't capture your encodings or ignite the inner fire, but it pays you well. Work hard at it, become better at it, achieve a modicum of success with it. This then leads to increased opportunities to do even more of what does not fit your encodings or ignite the inner fire, and you're getting paid even more to do it. That's the loop that so many people are in that can't get themselves out.

[Jim Collins]

I actually have a lot of compassion for how that happens because they may have family responsibilities.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right.

[Jim Collins]

They may have a need to provide for others. There may be reasons for that. And so it's not like it's a defect, but once you get trapped in it, it's really hard to get out of it because you just get better and better paid at doing something you're

[Oprah Winfrey]

not encoding that you don't even like. And one day you wake up to discover that years or decades have passed, you're well paid and out of frame. The inner fire is still there, but gradually going dormant. We need to take one last break. And when we come back, the most profound change in Jim's own life. After 10 years of researching what to

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[Oprah Winfrey]

back to the Oprah Podcast. I am so glad you join me here as I wrap up my conversation with the oh so smart, always insightful Jim Collins. If you know somebody who's navigating a major life transition, trying to find their path or maintain their inner drive, please share this episode with them. They'll be glad you did. I could talk to you all Day, you're the guy to have for a dinner party. You're the guy to have over. But I want to know how doing this research changed you. You do a whole list of changes, but what are the dominant ones that you feel that you've been changed by writing this book?

[Jim Collins]

Well, so first of all, as you know, there's a whole list in the back of like, I used to believe this. I used to believe this, and now I believe that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Jim Collins]

And we don't need to repeat all those. People will find those. But where I really changed was emotionally. I think one of the ways that I. That I really profoundly changed emotionally, the people who've been around me, it's sort of like I'm a stone that had really sharp edges. And then doing this study was like water going over that stone and softening off the sides of those edges. And now the stone has maybe still got some edges on there, but it's smoother, right? It's a smoother stone. And what happened? And that's like how my emotional sort of was like this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you softened.

[Jim Collins]

I softened tremendously.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And a couple became less judgmental of other people and their choices in their lives and their everything.

[Jim Collins]

Exactly. So one is just the increased sense of understanding and not an instinct to judge people for being in the fog, to judge people for being in a cliff, to judge people for. It might take them a while to find their way, even when they're young. Right. Some of our people didn't come into frame until their 30s.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Or say, the fog of youth, the fog of disappointment, the fog of success,

[Jim Collins]

and the fog of retirement for those who take that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Fog of retirement.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah, exactly. And that then led to, I guess, two things that really. One is I used to spend a lot of my life feeling frustrated with what people are not. And people around me suffered for that. People who were on my team, people in my life, frustrated with what they are not. And most egregiously frustrated they're not more like me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Jim Collins]

That's not very helpful. And what this study taught me, as I began to look at these lives and begin to realize how different they all are and how much there's such these beautiful expressions of their own encodings and what feeds their fire and these amazing things that they did late in life. And that's, again, just one of the biggest things that I want people to accept that about 60, like, that's when it really goes off and the big creative things happen.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So this notion of retiring at 65 is a terrible notion.

[Jim Collins]

Oh, it doesn't fit with their lives. Yeah. Yeah. But what happened is as I began to realize that the amazing thing that the people I studied were how they were such marvelous expressions of their encodings and their fire and how it played out and how they went through the cliffs and found new versions of it if their life changed, I began to look at the people in my own life, and I began to look at them differently. I began to look at them as, instead of feeling frustrated, what they were not, I began to be able to see what they are and what they're really encoded for. And then my shift became one where it was like, instead of frustration, it was almost this sense of awe. Look at that. That person's encoded for this. That is marvelous. That is spectacular. That is beautiful. And so I shifted from feeling frustrated with what people are not to feeling grateful for what people are. And I can't even begin to describe how significant that has been for me. I live better that way. But the other is for the people in my life, that my basic experience of them is I'm grateful for what

[Oprah Winfrey]

they are instead of wanting them to be something they can't be anyway.

[Jim Collins]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Jim Collins]

And then they flourished. Yeah. And so that was huge. And then the other is all the way back to the beginning of our conversation. One of the biggest transformations for me was I understood why my father never got out of the fog, why my father ended up not being able to be a father. And even though my father died many years ago, I was only 23 when he died. He was 48. And I carried this rage and anger. And by the end of this, one of the biggest transformation for me was I was able to forgive my father

[Oprah Winfrey]

for being who he was.

[Jim Collins]

For being who he was, but also an understanding of the terrible cliff that had hit his life when he was a young boy, and that how he didn't have the knowledge of this book that would allow him to get past that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So he actually lived in the fog

[Jim Collins]

until he died the rest of his life. That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

As people can do.

[Jim Collins]

As people can do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They hit the cliff and they never come out of it. And they stay in the fog.

[Jim Collins]

Yeah. And when I wrote the last page of the book, which is about me finally seeing my father in a different light, I'm sitting there, and I wrote the story and I wrote. What is the last paragraph of the book? I didn't plan it to be the last paragraph. I just. When I wrote it, I knew right there it was. I knew. That's the last sentence. And as soon as I wrote put the period on. I uncontrollably broke down and I cried for an hour. Mmm, Jim, I cried for an hour. Cause it was like this decades of release that came and I was able to embrace my long dead father. And I really wish I could have given him what's in here, but I couldn't. Right. I can't go back and give it to him. But I understand how he ended up in the fog and never got out. And now my main feeling for my father is not rage, but real compassion and deep sadness. And that has been an utterly wonderful gift and transformation for me. When I did the audio recording of the book, when I got to that last page, I was like, I don't think I can get through this without crying. Like, we had to like stop pause. But it was this huge catharsis.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, I thank you for writing the book.

[Jim Collins]

Yep.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you so much for joining me here on my front porch.

[Jim Collins]

You know, I have to say, when I heard that you wanted to have a conversation, I thought back to our time together in Chicago. And I just thought to be in your hands as a conversationalist and the chance to just be with you again and that you would read my work, not only me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm just so grateful I told you we are all like, passing it around to each other. I can't recommend this with a greater regard. I think it's gonna make a real difference in your life. Reading about other lives and also understanding what your own encodings are and what to make of a life is available wherever books are sold. It's a great guide for anybody at any age or any stage of life. A big thanks to Matthew and Sarah. Thanks for zooming in with us and thank you all for listening and watching. Yeah, go well. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.